WereWolf Rant #2 - The Great Mistake

PurpleFox

/facepalm
I logged on the other day and checked the patch notes...what do I see?

Werewolf

Fixed an issue where werewolves could use Devour on the same corpse multiple times.

Sigh...you are testing my patience, by removing this and not fixing ANYTHING else in the skill line you have rendered the skill line unusable, why? Because the animation is almost as long as the time given to devour...that means that its nearly impossible to stay a werewolf any more.

So after a few days research on the matter and all major sources cited I have developed a great number of flavored powers you "Could" of added to quell the masses until a massive bug fix/ overhaul was released...as I still have a little over a month yet, you will have till then to prove you can keep my subscribed...

So hear it is! Want a choclate bite power? How about a cookies and cream passive? Mint-Ice roars? Yours for the picking! ZOS...I implore you...DON'T screw this up.

All names will be will be mentioned in the creating of this comprihensive list of "Fan" ideas...which are, lets face it...far better than yours.

@ChampionSheWolf

Night Stalker; You have an an increased ability to detect stealthed individuals. Furthermore, when you enter stealth mode you stealth 20% faster. Works in human or werewolf form.

The effects of Bloodmoon should be a baseline effect.

Bloodmoon should instead be what savage strength is now.

Savage Strength should be changed to increase werewolf damage and critical strike chance.

Werewolf form itself should be a toggle effect that lasts much much longer than current 30 seconds. It's a joke and insult for the cost versus use this power requires.

@ScardyFox

Drop the Ultimate Generation.

Werewolves should have its own ultimate like Vampire does. I am a maxed out werewolf with complete Salvation set. Yes, I can generate transformation faster, but it takes 5 slots of armor? Thats crippling. Yes, I understand that will cause major re-writes in certain armors and skills, but its so poorly implemented right now it seems an absolute.

Give us a dodge.

It will require animation tweaking (because it should be a roll but rather a mini pounce back/forward/left/right) but we are utterly defenseless against any and all CC/AoE. In a game that is inundated with CC of various kinds, thats a death sentence.

Give us a CC break.

I'm not sure why we were never give any - perhaps people thought we would be too overwhelmingly powerful with one, but that is clearly not the case. Again, in a game where CC is king this is just a bad design flaw. At the very least allow us a passive that gives us a percentage (pertaining to how many times its bought into) that causes CC attempts to fail on us.

This would also depend on toggled Transformations or not. If we're stuck with the pedestrian idea of Ultimate generated transformation, this would be something helpful. If we get a toggled one, that allowed for a much longer wolf time, it could be over-powered. Either or, we need SOMETHING in this regard. The game is insanely heavy with powerful CC - that again - neuters us instantly.

A one time Design on our wolf form.

Allow us to customize our werewolf one time. Nothing major or rather to the extent of creating a character when you start the game. However, fur color, SOME size adjustment, eye color, shaggy coat, slight height scaler? Something - hell, even add in a money cost to it after the first free adjustment.

However, having a bunch of clones running around goes against the heart of ESO and character individuality.

Animation

For the love of God, please fix the animation run - I feel like I should be listening to the Benny Hill theme when I am Frankenstein running my way around the place. Hate to invoke Skyrim, but the run there was certainly done well; perfectly I might say.

Transformation

I am one of the people who don't want it changed, just make the fear effect last (slightly) longer to cover its length. It is an incredibly useful tool in the game when used right. Perhaps add an aspect like Shadow Barrier (from the Shadow NB passives) to it as we transform.

Night Time

Vampires get slight enhances at night, which make sense. Give us something as well. Perhaps, at night time only, our sense of smell is increased making all targets within a decided radius "visible" to us. This should only be applicable in were form and were form alone.

Pounce

It needs some speed added to it, if possible.

@shinkicker444rwb17

Leap: Change Feral Pounce duration extension to “crush armor”, reducing the armor of the target. Leave the AoE damage morph as is, maybe add a knockdown to it.

Roar: Change the base skill to make targets COWER in fear (or maybe run around in a small circle, or be paralysed), not bolt to the horizon alerting every NPC for the next two zones, thus giving the skill some utility in close packed rooms in dungeons. Change Rousing Roar to a static number to make it more useful on bosses (like 10 WD), the duration is fine I guess. Ferocious Roar gives your attacks a lifesteal effect for a timed duration.

Savage: Savage the target inflicting them with a large bleed for 10 seconds, and knocking them to the ground (was thinking of a Slam skill as well). Morphed Thrash, strike all targets in front of you inflicting them with a bleed. Alt Morph, increase damage taken by target from all sources by X% – would give party some nice damage increase.

Wild Hunt: Call two Wolves to fight at your side for 15 seconds (similar to the Nightblade Summon Shade skill). Morph 1: Wolves do increased damage against bleeding targets, Morph 2: Wolves gain a howl that increases party mana/stamina regeneration by 10-15%

@Oronell

Here's another thought that can be combined with previous suggestions.

How about a "Wolf Hide" passive that increases damage mitigation while in werewolf form. This could be further morphed into "Iron Hide" for those who want a reduction to physical damage or "Sleek Hide" for those who want a chanced immunity to stun/snares.

Then combine the "Wolf Hide" passive with the following changes to fur color:
Pack leaders who choose the "Iron Hide" morph move from White to Silver (solid silver at full morph).
Pack Leaders who choose "Sleek Hide" move from White to Brown.
Beserkers who choose the "Iron Hide" morph move to Black with a Bluish Tint
Beserkers who choose the "Sleek hide" morph move to Black with Reddish Tint

@Ace_Sin

Here's what I would like to see for abilities:

1) A self heal that is used for emergencies and grants increased hp recovery for x amount of seconds(so similar to dragon blood). This way if we are hit with a burst we are able to recover enough to "hold on" and counterattack. Instead of currently where we are as good as dead. It could be done as another roar type of skill or require you to bite your target.

2) An ability similar to Immovable. Make us immune to CC for x amount of seconds. I want to feel like a raging beast, not some domesticated puppy due to a single CC spam.

3) An ability that transfer part of my mana pool into my stamina. If we're going to be 100% stam based, then at least give us an ability that helps make it viable.

Tweaks:

Devour: This skill should only be interrupted by knockbacks or other action breaking CC(like stuns) and return a % of your hp and stam. It's bad how easy it is to interrupt this skill and receive nothing.

Pounce: Knockdown your target for x amount of seconds(like every other charge in the game). This skill should be useful on its own and not be forced to crutch on another.

Passives:

Pursuit: While transformed - Increase stamina by 20% and detect stealthed players within 12 meters. Bonuses are cut in half if out of WW form. You shouldn't be able to stealth away from a WW. It should be a difficult task. While our "normal" form needs some bonuses as well from our werewolf skill line.

Beastial Vigor(replace devour in the skill line): Increase HP regeneration by 20%. Bonus is cut in half if out of WW form. I'm not really sure about this one, but devour should be known by default and I feel our normal form needs another benefit.

@dr_zed

- Remove the ultimate cost entirelly. Instead, give it a, lets say, 2 minute cooldown that begins from the time you finished your last transformation (Blood Rage gets reworked).

- Make the WW inmute to all forms of CC, except for the Fighter's guild skills CC.

- Make Devour restore the whole transformation time bar, and make you invulnerable while you eat.

- Remove "cast time" on Devour and let it feed from the same corpse more than once again. Also, let it feed from ANY corpse.

- Let the WW stay transformed as long as he likes (remove transformation time bar completely). Make him start to lose HP progressively if 15 seconds pass and he does't attack someone, so he will end up dying if he stays out of combat for too long (Devour gets reworked).

- Buff both active skills. Make Pounce a lot faster, give it a stun and more damage. Make Roar an instant cast ability and increase it's radius.

- Give him 1 or 2 more active skills.

EDIT- Welcome Sylinias to the list

@Sylinias

My suggestions:

1) Remove the more egregious current limitations to the class
A vamp is always a vamp, so make Werewolf an 'at will' transformation with an initial limited period time in form - though MUCH longer than it is now - and give the class their own Ultimate. The time in form can grow as the player grows in their abilities. This means the transformation is level/time dependent with the ability to go longer and longer as the character grows. For higher levels, if you want to get wicked with it, make it so that any player in form longer than say 48 hrs runs the risk of being permanently locked into the form with the only recourse being 'healed' of their lycanthropy and starting the class all over. Of course, if the player decides to stay in form then they lose the ability to interact with NPCs for buying and selling/mail/etc, town guards *will* attack them, and they can become targets of the Dark Brotherhood or the Fighters Guild. If the player wants to drop out and go rogue, then they can do it!

1) Give players *their* choice of Ultimate to use
Allow ultimate points to built independently and applied to either the main spec or the Werewolf spec. This means that the player can have the option of using whichever suits the situation best. e.g., I'm an NB and need that last damage dump on a boss so I can either use my NB ultimate or I can transform into Werewolf form and use that Ultimate. I should not have to give up one for the other.

Lastly my own power suggestions...

1. Bloody Claws- Similar to the duel wield power flurry but MUCH more powerful
   Morphs:
   -Rapid Strikes, Increases attack speed of all attacks after.
   -Pounding strikes, Can interrupt spells and stun
   
2. Incapacitation- Has an animation where you duck bite and enemies leg, immobilizing them for 4-5 seconds
   Morphs:
   - Bestial Hunger- Knocks down and devours the opponent, doing some serious damage and reducing their healing for 5-10 seconds
   - Leg Tear- Increases the stun time to 10-12 seconds, making it wise for hunters to hunt as a team, less getting ripped apart.
   
3. Hercines howl- Summon 2 Wolves to fight (Wolf's Level with the player's level)
   - Mighty Howl- Summons 2 Werewolves to fight, however it cannot be used withing a curtain radius other players (To prevent everyone from spamming it and tripling the numbers)
   - Call of the Hunt- Spawns 4 wolves to fight

I also have some passives

• Moonlight- Does more dmg at the nightime while outdoors. 3 stages.
• Hercine's Embrace- increases your max hp by 50% while in WW form, second is 100% more. 2 Stages
• Primal rage- Increase attack speed and reduces cooldown by 5%, 10%, & 15%. 3 Stages

Devour i agree needs to replenish ALOT more on the timer, and not be so buggy about it either.

You see zenimax! There are plenty of things you could have done so much better if you had only listened to US!
But, no doubt that you won't you never do that, you won't listen... but if i dot see any good changes by the time but sub runs out...my guild will have to die along with the skill line

It was wrong of me to hope this to be good...even after 2 years of waiting for this game...clearly I was wrong, so, so wrong...

Citations:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/73523/the-werewolf-is-riddled-with-bugs

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/96716/werewolf-transformation-should-be-borderline-op-and-here-s-why

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88805/fix-the-werewolf


Feel free to add your own powers, and skill suggestions to the list.

Brittany_Joy

They should add the ability to turn into a rug, you can turn into a rug anywhere and it counts as a snare to enemies who step on you. My glorious dictator thought of this idea. (My Guildmaster)

I just want a werewolf transformation that I can toggle, basically shapeshift at will. I want to be able to play as a werewolf without any restrictions to how long I can stay in form. ZoS just needs to take notes from Blizzard and how they do stuff. Blizzard didn't put any CD or high cost to turning into a feral druid. Blizzard allows feral druids to shapeshift at will because it is more fun! Seriously, putting restrictions and high costs to being a werewolf just gets rid of all the fun.

PurpleFox

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

They should add the ability to turn into a rug, you can turn into a rug anywhere and it counts as a snare to enemies who step on you. My glorious dictator thought of this idea. (My Guildmaster)

I just want a werewolf transformation that I can toggle, basically shapeshift at will. I want to be able to play as a werewolf without any restrictions to how long I can stay in form. ZoS just needs to take notes from Blizzard and how they do stuff. Blizzard didn't put any CD or high cost to turning into a feral druid. Blizzard allows feral druids to shapeshift at will because it is more fun! Seriously, putting restrictions and high costs to being a werewolf just gets rid of all the fun.

A rug? LOL sounds fun! I can jump up and wrap around people, smothering them to death with my furry hugs.

Liquid_Time

Umm.. Okay.

Sakiri

I dislike the idea of a toggle and dislike permawolf.

I like it as an ultimate, but it shouldnt be a freaking 1k cost.

Abilities are limited because they basically took the vampire template and copied it. Two abilities, an ultimate, and passives. Adding more abilities means theyd have to add more to vampires and it would bloat the tree.

Id also love it is they made combat less floaty. Camera waggles too hypersensitive like while in form, like before they fixed it for melee combat in general. The sprint... gimme Skyrim sprint. Let us dodge and break cc. And for the love of Hate add a damage reduction to the reversion or make it instand. Nothing like dying because your transformation lagged out and you couldnt move.

Sylinias

Sakiri wrote: »

Abilities are limited because they basically took the vampire template and copied it. Two abilities, an ultimate, and passives. Adding more abilities means theyd have to add more to vampires and it would bloat the tree.

Not even close since a Vamp is *always* a vamp and has immediate access to vamp abilities as well as their normal ones. Fixing the WW to make it 'at will' and on a level-based timer (5min/15 min/30min/1hr/2hr/4hr/8hr/16hr/24hr/48hr) with a severe penalty/risk for staying in form longer at max level - real permawolf and loss of humanity - ensures the immersion of the skill and in the game.

PurpleFox

@Sylinias

Fixing the WW to make it 'at will' and on a level-based timer (5min/15 min/30min/1hr/2hr/4hr/8hr/16hr/24hr/48hr) with a severe penalty/risk for staying in form longer at max level - real permawolf and loss of humanity - ensures the immersion of the skill and in the game.

A loss of humanity for staying as the wolf? I really like this idea! A toggle would be fun but trying to manage time spent as to "Control" the wolf sounds even better!!!

ScardyFox

Sylinias wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Abilities are limited because they basically took the vampire template and copied it. Two abilities, an ultimate, and passives. Adding more abilities means theyd have to add more to vampires and it would bloat the tree.

Not even close since a Vamp is *always* a vamp and has immediate access to vamp abilities as well as their normal ones. Fixing the WW to make it 'at will' and on a level-based timer (5min/15 min/30min/1hr/2hr/4hr/8hr/16hr/24hr/48hr) with a severe penalty/risk for staying in form longer at max level - real permawolf and loss of humanity - ensures the immersion of the skill and in the game.

Thank you for posting that rebuttal, I found the comparison so foolish I couldn't be bothered.

Anyway, good post Purple, keep up the good work.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Prefer permanent wolf not toggle.

Locksoli

The whole werewolf skill line is bugged. Pack leaders prematurely shift back, and berserkers texture is wrong(supposed to be black). I think they should add another active, and maybe a perma wolf passive to make up for fixing this "bug" before any of the other ones and taking most of our fun away.

Oronell

Anyone else having a problem biting? Seems to be bugged also.

PurpleFox

Oronell wrote: »

Anyone else having a problem biting? Seems to be bugged also.

You can't bite in a party, and you may need to get the timer down a bit/devour something before you bite a player

Locksoli

The only problems I have is they fix unimportant bugs before the serious ones, and we cant do emotes like /kneel or /laugh or /sit when we're wolves

Oronell

PurpleFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

Anyone else having a problem biting? Seems to be bugged also.

You can't bite in a party, and you may need to get the timer down a bit/devour something before you bite a player

Very odd, haven't used my bite for almost two weeks but tried yesterday and couldn't. Ran into two other players who were having the same problem. Also experienced the same type bug with the very first bite I gave. So now you can't be grouped with the person you want to bite?

ScardyFox

Oronell wrote: »

PurpleFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

Anyone else having a problem biting? Seems to be bugged also.

You can't bite in a party, and you may need to get the timer down a bit/devour something before you bite a player

Very odd, haven't used my bite for almost two weeks but tried yesterday and couldn't. Ran into two other players who were having the same problem. Also experienced the same type bug with the very first bite I gave. So now you can't be grouped with the person you want to bite?

Its ALWAYS been buggy for me - a sure fire method I use is when the person wants the bite is with me, I keep them targeted and transform. As I am transforming I mash x - it never fails if I do it like that.

You typically don't see the animation, but has never failed me or others in my guild who do it that way now. Oh and yes, you can be grouped.

PurpleFox

ScardyFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

PurpleFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

Anyone else having a problem biting? Seems to be bugged also.

You can't bite in a party, and you may need to get the timer down a bit/devour something before you bite a player

Very odd, haven't used my bite for almost two weeks but tried yesterday and couldn't. Ran into two other players who were having the same problem. Also experienced the same type bug with the very first bite I gave. So now you can't be grouped with the person you want to bite?

Its ALWAYS been buggy for me - a sure fire method I use is when the person wants the bite is with me, I keep them targeted and transform. As I am transforming I mash x - it never fails if I do it like that.

You typically don't see the animation, but has never failed me or others in my guild who do it that way now. Oh and yes, you can be grouped.

You can bite in a party? I never can seem to when i'm party'd with other players, but as soon as leave the group and target them, it works fine. But that's what's to be expected when you have a buggy skill line i guess

ScardyFox

PurpleFox wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

PurpleFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

Anyone else having a problem biting? Seems to be bugged also.

You can't bite in a party, and you may need to get the timer down a bit/devour something before you bite a player

Very odd, haven't used my bite for almost two weeks but tried yesterday and couldn't. Ran into two other players who were having the same problem. Also experienced the same type bug with the very first bite I gave. So now you can't be grouped with the person you want to bite?

Its ALWAYS been buggy for me - a sure fire method I use is when the person wants the bite is with me, I keep them targeted and transform. As I am transforming I mash x - it never fails if I do it like that.

You typically don't see the animation, but has never failed me or others in my guild who do it that way now. Oh and yes, you can be grouped.

You can bite in a party? I never can seem to when i'm party'd with other players, but as soon as leave the group and target them, it works fine. But that's what's to be expected when you have a buggy skill line i guess

Yep, every time I have done it, it was in party. But like aforementioned, I do it when I am transforming. Keep them targeted, transform, and hit x during the animation. 100% success rate for me doing it like that.

PurpleFox

ScardyFox wrote: »

PurpleFox wrote: »

ScardyFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

PurpleFox wrote: »

Oronell wrote: »

Anyone else having a problem biting? Seems to be bugged also.

You can't bite in a party, and you may need to get the timer down a bit/devour something before you bite a player

Very odd, haven't used my bite for almost two weeks but tried yesterday and couldn't. Ran into two other players who were having the same problem. Also experienced the same type bug with the very first bite I gave. So now you can't be grouped with the person you want to bite?

Its ALWAYS been buggy for me - a sure fire method I use is when the person wants the bite is with me, I keep them targeted and transform. As I am transforming I mash x - it never fails if I do it like that.

You typically don't see the animation, but has never failed me or others in my guild who do it that way now. Oh and yes, you can be grouped.

You can bite in a party? I never can seem to when i'm party'd with other players, but as soon as leave the group and target them, it works fine. But that's what's to be expected when you have a buggy skill line i guess

Yep, every time I have done it, it was in party. But like aforementioned, I do it when I am transforming. Keep them targeted, transform, and hit x during the animation. 100% success rate for me doing it like that.

Well thats nice to know
Thanks

ScardyFox

NP at all

ScardyFox

We have not forgotten and are waiting...

panemetcircenses

Sakiri wrote: »

Abilities are limited because they basically took the vampire template and copied it. Two abilities, an ultimate, and passives. Adding more abilities means they'd have to add more to vampires and it would bloat the tree.

As I understand it, only Blood Rage does anything at all in human form; compared to the manner in which the Werewolf was set up, a Vampire is a vastly different animal (so to speak). Let's face it, Vampires don't ever have empty slots on their Skill Bars, for starters... oh, wait, they can use two full Skill Bars...

Instead of reworking the thing entirely, though, how about:
[EDIT] Incoming wall of text, sorry, but explaining the suggestions took space.

1. Poison Vulnerability and Passives (innate to Transformation and Skills purchased) should be at a portion of their current magnitude in mortal form, 100% of their current magnitude when Transformed.
a. Poison Vulnerability and Stamina, Armor, Run Speed bonuses: 20% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed.
b. Pursuit bonuses: 20% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed
c. Blood Rage: restores Stamina in mortal form, both Stamina and Ultimate Transformed (later changes reflect the logic behind this, keep reading)
d. Devour: remains unchanged
e. Blood Moon: remains unchanged
f. Savage Strength: 33% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed
g. Call of the Pack: 33% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed

2. Pounce should have a knockdown. It should also be able to be used when in mortal form, with a tackle-and-roll-to-your-feet animation. In human form, range would only be 10m, at 75% of Transformed damage, but retaining the knockdown and stun against off-balance targets. Further, the Morphs only apply their secondary effects when Transformed, while Stamina Cost remains the same regardless of form.

3. Werewolf Transformation should be a semi-toggled standard ability, and cut Max Magicka in half while active; toggling off the ability does not instantly restore Magicka, but it allows your Magicka to fill to its normal maximum through any source that restores Magicka. The duration should be half (rounded down) your Werewolf skill line rank +10 in seconds, with current modifiers retained. The point of the Magicka cost is simple: it keeps you from being able to spam your Transformation limitlessly, and it leaves you temporarily weakened when you return to your mortal form; also, transforming into a raging mass of fur and fang in tribute to a Daedric Prince seems like it might be spiritually draining.

4. Roar should be an Ultimate, with a base cost of 50 Ultimate. The radius, number of targets, and duration of the effects should increase with the Werewolf's Ultimate Charge, similar to the way a Nightblade's Death Stroke Ultimate improves if you properly build up before using it.

5. Those empty slots in your skill tray: Let's face it, you're a raging mass of fur and fang (and claws, mustn't forget those)... several melee Weapon Skill abilities should be capable of filling these empty skill slots, as well as abilities from the physical Armor Skill lines (Medium and Heavy; Light is tied to Magcka use, which does not appear to be the design philosophy of Werewolves in any sense of the term).
Active abilities:
a. Dual Wield: Twin Slashes (claws), Flurry (claws)
b. One Hand and Shield: Puncture (left claw pierce), Low Slash (right claw sweep)
c. Two Handed: Cleave (dual claw swipe), Critical Charge (jaws), Uppercut (grab and throw back with jaws)
d. Medium Armor and Heavy Armor: Evasion, Immovable
Passive Abilities:
a. Dual Wield: Slaughter, Controlled Fury, Ruffian
b. One Hand and Shield: Fortress, Battlefield Mobility
c. Two Handed: Forceful, Balance
d. Medium and Heavy Armor: All to the extent that you have Medium/Heavy Armor equipped.
*Note that this leaves you with 4 potential Weapon Skill passives that are always active and one each that only applies to reducing the cost of the Weapon Skill Active abilities that may be slotted. You do have to spend more skill points in multiple Weapon Skill lines, however, on abilities that may only apply when Transformed; this is intended to require an investment, but allow you to avoid losing out entirely on access to your Weapon Skill passives when you turn into a Werewolf.

6. Basic Attack, Power Attack, Block, Interrupt, Dodge Roll, Sneak, etc. should all apply to Werewolf form.

There, that's my Werewolf Rant contribution, a suggestion on how to make Werewolves blend into the customization and, well, effectiveness of the other skill lines in the game.

Locksoli

ScardyFox wrote: »

We have not forgotten and are waiting...

Love that show. Still want werewolf actions like /sit or /kneel.

Valaska

Went up a group of 4 Dremora as a WW, was destroyed in seconds... This is a group I wouldn't have even blinked at while unchanged.

ScardyFox

panemetcircenses wrote: »

As I understand it, only Blood Rage does anything at all in human form; compared to the manner in which the Werewolf was set up, a is Vampire vastly different animal. Let's face it, Vampires don't have ever empty slots on their powers bar, for starters...

Honestly, I wouldn't bother. He's delusional if he thinks there is any comparison.

panemetcircenses wrote: »

Instead of reworking the thing entirely, though, how about:
[EDIT] Incoming wall of text, sorry, but explaining the suggestions took space.

Don't apologies, the more gimlet-eyed the post the better. Information is good.

panemetcircenses wrote: »

1. Poison Vulnerability and Passives (innate to Transformation and Skills purchased) should be at a portion of their current magnitude in mortal form, 100% of their current magnitude when Transformed.
a. Poison Vulnerability and Stamina, Armor, Run Speed bonuses: 20% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed.
b. Pursuit bonuses: 20% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed
c. Blood Rage: restores Stamina in mortal form, both Stamina and Ultimate Transformed (later changes reflect the logic behind this, keep reading)
d. Devour: remains unchanged
e. Blood Moon: remains unchanged
f. Savage Strength: 33% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed
g. Call of the Pack: 33% of current in mortal form, 100% Transformed

I think having stats that high would make the class broken - 33%. Or rather Savage strength. It would give a lot of wiggle room to pile on other stats.

Yeah, I think call of the pack should also apply in human form. Or rather I think it should be dropped and a new passive added. Reason being, on my part, because I think werewolf should be a rage toggle and that they get their own unique ultimate (usable only in form).

panemetcircenses wrote: »

2. Pounce should have a knockdown. It should also be able to be used when in mortal form, with a tackle-and-roll-to-your-feet animation. In human form, range would only be 10m, at 75% of Transformed damage, but retaining the knockdown and stun against off-balance targets. Further, the Morphs only apply their secondary effects when Transformed, while Stamina Cost remains the same regardless of form.

I think it should be... something. I hate to bring up an incredibly disappointing game, but Aliens: Colonial Marines. There was a class of alien in there called a "Lurker". It was a pounce class that lept from walls, ceilings.... anywhere really. WHat I think could translate well is when you landed a pounce, you would force the person to the ground pinning them and getting several claw swipes in. Again, hate to bring up a crappy game but you can see the effect at the 30 second mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7e6whNfAMc

However, that said, I do find the pounce effect where it adds 4 seconds incredibly useful. Not sure I'd give that up in the current setup.

panemetcircenses wrote: »

3. Werewolf Transformation should be a semi-toggled standard ability, and cut Max Magicka in half while active; toggling off the ability does not instantly restore Magicka, but it allows your Magicka to fill to its normal maximum through any source that restores Magicka. The duration should be half (rounded down) your Werewolf skill line rank +10 in seconds, with current modifiers retained. The point of the Magicka cost is simple: it keeps you from being able to spam your Transformation limitlessly, and it leaves you temporarily weakened when you return to your mortal form; also, transforming into a raging mass of fur and fang in tribute to a Daedric Prince seems like it might be spiritually draining.

I like a toggle, but for me I see it as a small rage bar that builds when hit and when attacking. To be honest, I haven't thought about it overly much (how it generates) even though from day one I have been whining about it. I do think having a higher leveled werewolf, both by the humanoid character and bestial, should have some bearing on it.

panemetcircenses wrote: »

4. Roar should be an Ultimate, with a base cost of 50 Ultimate. The radius, number of targets, and duration of the effects should increase with the Werewolf's Ultimate Charge, similar to the way a Nightblade's Death Stroke Ultimate improves if you properly build up before using it.

Agreed on duration and number, but you'd have to have a long time in werewolf form if you used ultimate as fuel for roar. Roar is incredibly potent and useful, I wouldn't want to give it up unless such a formula worked well. I can't see ultimate fuel working well with it. Its a control mechanism that needs access to instantly.

panemetcircenses wrote: »

5. Those empty slots in your skill tray: Let's face it, you're a raging mass of fur and fang (and claws, mustn't forget those)... several melee Weapon Skill abilities should be capable of filling these empty skill slots, as well as abilities from the physical Armor Skill lines (Medium and Heavy; Light is tied to Magcka use, which does not appear to be the design philosophy of Werewolves in any sense of the term).
Active abilities:
a. Dual Wield: Twin Slashes (claws), Flurry (claws)
b. One Hand and Shield: Puncture (left claw pierce), Low Slash (right claw sweep)
c. Two Handed: Cleave (dual claw swipe), Critical Charge (jaws), Uppercut (grab and throw back with jaws)
d. Medium Armor and Heavy Armor: Evasion, Immovable
Passive Abilities:
a. Dual Wield: Slaughter, Controlled Fury, Ruffian
b. One Hand and Shield: Fortress, Battlefield Mobility
c. Two Handed: Forceful, Balance
d. Medium and Heavy Armor: All to the extent that you have Medium/Heavy Armor equipped.
*Note that this leaves you with 4 potential Weapon Skill passives that are always active and one each that only applies to reducing the cost of the Weapon Skill Active abilities that may be slotted. You do have to spend more skill points in multiple Weapon Skill lines, however, on abilities that may only apply when Transformed; this is intended to require an investment, but allow you to avoid losing out entirely on access to your Weapon Skill passives when you turn into a Werewolf.

Not sure I'd give that many, but I think they need to tie in some passives to the form.

panemetcircenses wrote: »

6. Basic Attack, Power Attack, Block, Interrupt, Dodge Roll, Sneak, etc. should all apply to Werewolf form.

There, that's my Werewolf Rant contribution, a suggestion on how to make Werewolves blend into the customization and, well, effectiveness of the other skill lines in the game.

Yes, we need a sneak for sure and maybe a sub pounce effect could happen from pouncing from sneak. However, again, we'd need a healthy amount of time in the form in order to eat up time sneaking around.

Personally, right now if they didn't want to add CC they, I think a new passive where CCs have a chance to fail by percentage of how much you buy into it. Lets say the max was 50%, and if the caster(s) failed, they should fall into a fear effect or unbalanced for 2 seconds so they pay for spamming CC. It would add to the fear of coming across a werewolf. Honestly, I'd rather that then a CC break. Backfiring their CC would add to a pounce situation.


@‌Locksoli I've never actually seen it, just like the gif. Is it a goodshow? Worth checking out?

When I was a kid this was the Werewolf show to go to - it was wildly popular till they messed about with one of the main actors (the antagonist). When he left the show started to suck over night - the centric characters actor was so wooden it was painful.

Anyway, this was the go to series in 1987

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR00JD7milk

panemetcircenses

[WARNING] You said you liked information ScardyFox... everyone else, sorry, but incoming wall-o-text :P

ScardyFox wrote: »

I think having stats that high would make the class broken - 33%. Or rather Savage strength. It would give a lot of wiggle room to pile on other stats.

Yeah, I think call of the pack should also apply in human form. Or rather I think it should be dropped and a new passive added. Reason being, on my part, because I think werewolf should be a rage toggle and that they get their own unique ultimate (usable only in form).

I suppose I should clarify... my numbers there were all suggesting to apply a small portion of the Transformed benefits when in mortal form. Oh, and I use "mortal" partly because Sheogorath amuses me and partly because that is your natural form rather than a form that's something beyond that of mere men, mer, or beastfolk... thanks to Hircine's blessing. But anyway, I meant those numbers as percentages of the current magnitude to apply in mortal form, not to change the magnitude from what they currently are. I chose the magnitudes I did in attempt to balance them with the current Racial skill bonuses; making them on par with the Racial still means that you have to Transform to truly experience the glory of being a Werewolf, but you still gain something from the beast lurking just beneath the surface.

To clarify (and for simplicity numbers are only for the first rank):

a1. Poison Vulnerability: 10% Poison Vulnerability mortal form, 50% Werewolf form (because you aren't truly a Werewolf unless you Transform into one, and therefore shouldn't gain the full vulnerability just as you shouldn't gain the full benefits)
a2. Stamina, Armor, Run Speed bonuses: the bonuses in mortal form were intended to balance with the vulnerability that remains while in mortal form; having any vulnerability without any benefit is a "special" design, but since I didn't check the actual amounts of the bonuses to these when transformed the actual ratio for each of the three bonuses could be adjusted. For example, while I can see a Werewolf running down a horse this certainly should never be possible in mortal form. Still, just a bit faster and tougher than a mere mortal, but a little more vulnerable to poison as well.
b. Pursuit: +2% Stamina mortal form, +10% Werewolf form (mortal form is lower per rank than many racials)
c. Blood Rage: +1 Stamina when hit mortal form, +1 Stamina and Ultimate when hit Werewolf (mortal for magnitude is similar to the Redguard Adrenaline Rush, but when taking a hit rather than delivering a hit)
f. Savage Strength: +1% Max Stamina on kill mortal form, +3% Max Stamina on kill Werewolf (in mortal form this would give approximately +5% Max Stamina in at full stack, slightly more than a rank of Redguard Conditioning but without access to three ranks and requiring a build up to achieve that total)
g. Call of the Pack: +1% transformation duration within 15m mortal form, +3% Werewolf form (this was pretty much to give something of a bonus, though with the base Transformation duration it isn't going to make much of a difference unless you have a full 5 packmates around or you Transform)

Notice there are no requests to add a full +5% to both Stamina/Magicka Recovery in mortal form... Vampire Passives should have better bonuses since they are always Vampires; their Passives should exceed what you get as a Racial (as they do) since they come at the cost of being a Vampire. Werewolves should not, however, have Vulnerability with no bonuses; at least give us a return on our Skill Point investment comparable to investing in a Racial.

ScardyFox wrote: »

I like a toggle, but for me I see it as a small rage bar that builds when hit and when attacking. To be honest, I haven't thought about it overly much (how it generates) even though from day one I have been whining about it. I do think having a higher leveled werewolf, both by the humanoid character and bestial, should have some bearing on it.

Agreed on duration and number, but you'd have to have a long time in werewolf form if you used ultimate as fuel for roar. Roar is incredibly potent and useful, I wouldn't want to give it up unless such a formula worked well. I can't see ultimate fuel working well with it. Its a control mechanism that needs access to instantly.

As far as the toggle, the reason I suggested the methodology I did was because the mechanic already exists in the way Sorceror Summons reduce Max Magicka when active. Adding an additional Rage meter would add another mechanic that could bug out the Skill line, which we'd all prefer to avoid. Plus, there is a mission in Glenumbra (Aldcroft docks) where all it takes is a amulet to force the Werewolves to transform... indicating that the beast within is a little closer to the surface than having to build the current Ultimate or even a separate Rage meter. Oh, and don't forget that unlike most Werewolves who have given their souls to Hircine in exchange for his blessing, we don't presently have ours to give; thus sacrificing a portion of your Magicka to fuel the Transformation instead.

For the Roar Ultimate, remember that my suggestion uses Magicka to undergo the Transformation rather than Ultimate... you will likely carry over some Ultimate going in. Further, the adjustment to Blood Rage was designed to assist you in getting at least one good Roar in before your Transformation reverts; it generates Ultimate in Werewolf form rather than mortal form.

Basically, I swapped Transformation to an Active (on your Skill bar in both forms) and Roar to an Ultimate (in Werewolf form), rather than Roar as an Active (in Werewolf form) and Transformation as an Ultimate (in human form and no Ultimate whatsoever in Werewolf form).

ScardyFox wrote: »

Not sure I'd give that many, but I think they need to tie in some passives to the form.

The Weapon Skill passives are intentionally selected to have 4 eligible passives that apply no matter what Active skill you've slotted. The 3 others are all cost reduction skills, that only reduce the cost of attacks from a given skill line. For example, Controlled Fury will not reduce the cost of Uppercut, so you only really gain a benefit of 5 Weapon Skill passives at any given time; also, remember that the cross-qualification for the Weapon Skill passives only applies when the Werewolf skill bar is up, i.e. when you are Transformed. When you aren't in Werewolf form, you have to level each Skill line individually, making it harder to unlock access to the full range of Passives; different enough to be neat, but also suffering from unique limitations.

Think of it this way: when you are using any given weapon, you have access to a set of 5 Weapon Skill passives, one of which is designed to reduce the cost of the related Weapon Skill active abilities. I simply drew from the 3 melee Weapon Skill lines to match that potential.

As far as the Active abilities I chose... I pretty much chose the ones I could actually visualize a Werewolf using with tooth and claw, no more, no less. I initially thought that simply adding access to the Dual Wield skill line would work, having two claws and all. Then I thought of something: Werewolves pirouetting in the air (Whirlwind), playing with sparklers (Sparks), or throwing daggers (Hidden Blade) simply do not work from a conceptual standpoint. As a result, I picked a couple options from each melee Weapon Skill that I could actually envision a Werewolf using.

Armor Skills were partly a laziness thing, I admit, but also follow the concept of the Werewolf itself. By allowing the use of Medium and Heavy Armor skills, you can keep those passives available and use your equipped armor to lean your Werewolf form more towards ferocious or relentless; visual adjustments to fang/claw length and physical bulk respectively that reflect the physical armor you have equipped would be a great way to personalize your Werewolf form a tad, too. It's not like Transformation rips apart your armor and leaves you naked when you revert; this is a Daedric blessing (praise Hircine), so your equipment is absorbed within the Transformation and returns intact. My intention was to have your eligible Armor skills reflect this... though I simply can't envision a Werewolf generating an Annulment field or having anything to do with Light Armor skills in general. Again, this was a result of function reflecting the form you take upon yourself.

ScardyFox wrote: »

Personally, right now if they didn't want to add CC they, I think a new passive where CCs have a chance to fail by percentage of how much you buy into it. Lets say the max was 50%, and if the caster(s) failed, they should fall into a fear effect or unbalanced for 2 seconds so they pay for spamming CC. It would add to the fear of coming across a werewolf. Honestly, I'd rather that then a CC break. Backfiring their CC would add to a pounce situation.

Actually, they have now apparently added access to Dodge Roll, though as a sort of hop I guess. I'd be fine with adding something like a CC avoidance or backfire Passive, but given the manner in which CC impacts play I felt that might be more powerful than intended and therefore left it off of my proposal. Access to the Armor skills that every other player can utilize seemed more balanced, and again wouldn't require additional work on the devs part; they could simply allow the use of a skill we already have and they already designed.

...

Yeah, I may have put too much thought into all of this, but dang it I want a Werewolf that I want to play.

dr_zed

The only reason I am still a ww is because of the free 10k per week, because it makes me weaker than if I wasn't. And not only the transformation is weaker, without being transformed you get 9% extra damage from players in pvp due to slayer passive skill (fighter's guild), without mentioning the poison weakness. As soon as I get to vr10 I will prolly quit being it.

Chuggernaut

I do think Devour needs a debuff timer so you know when you can use it, its annoying when your take out a mob and you cannot eat any of them, and then you need to scramble to find another mob before the timer runs out. I also really think Werewolf shift should follow the same rules as Overload.

Nosfuratu

There should be a rank 10 skill that makes the werewolf ability "toggleable" or converts the ultimate into a normal ability, signifying that we have "mastered" our werewolf self.

Maybe even allowing some of our passive skills to be active when not transformed.

Maou

Nosfuratu wrote: »

There should be a rank 10 skill that makes the werewolf ability "toggleable" or converts the ultimate into a normal ability, signifying that we have "mastered" our werewolf self.

Maybe even allowing some of our passive skills to be active when not transformed.

I actually really like this idea. It's fair, is great for rp, and it'd make reaching lvl 10 much more rewarding and further separate ourselves from the lower levels.
(It'd also help if they made berserkers black)

Still_Mind

I approve of the OP.

"Shapeshift, nose to the wind! Shapeshift, feeling I've been
More swift, all senses clean! Earth's gift! Back to the meaning of...
LIFE!" (c) Metallica, Of Wolf and Man.

Drachdhar

Currently while Devouring you do not lose time in your wolf form...