Is the vamp nerf too much?

TheBull

I just hope I get to keep my passives after I die. I'm tired of relogging. I don't even have Bat Swarm slotted. I'm a little disappointed about mist movement speed nerf.

PocketNova

I personally don't think the mist movement speed needs to be nurfed at all, instead I think they should simply make carrying a scroll disable the ability to use mist, or that bolt escape, etc so that this cannot give the carrier any advantage. This would make this more fair and allow vamps to keep their mist speed.

As for bat swarm I simply think it needs to be changed so that it works like other ults and cannot be spammed.

Would also be cool if vamps became creatures of the night, like vamps should be, would make pvp much more interesting when day changes to night.

martin.cowiepreeb18_ESO

Is the vamp nerf too much?
No!

caveman42ub17_ESO

Sebyos wrote: »

This is such poorly thought out crying it's laughable. If you want to debate on something, don't exaggerate to the point where nobody can take you seriously. ''Bat Swarm is now the worst Ultimate'' Yeah right...

Anyway, this is not even a real Ult nerf, one change is a bug fix and the other makes sure that cost reductions on spells and ultimate don't reach ridiculous levels.

And the way to escape a zerg ? Well, maybe you don't. Just die like you are supposed to, like almost everyone else.

Seriously, all these guys running away, often living for just a minute longer make me question their sanity. If you can't control your survival instincts and emotions in a video game, you got issues.

I'm not even sure where to start with this inane bit of drivel. If solo or small group players can't escape a zerg, then the zerg becomes the only viable "tactic". I put tactic in quotes because it really is the anti-tactic. The only real tactic implied in a zerg is safety in numbers. Honestly, the zerg is where you go if you can't hack it in pvp and have no concept of strategy. If thinking hurts, you group up with a herd of others just like you.

The herd mentality should never be rewarded. It should be wiped. Repeatedly. In the case of escapes in pvp, yes, good players should have a means other than just bolt escape that allow it to evade a zerg. Nightblade skills don't work reliably for this, there is too much mage light going around and iirc the speed increase in concealed weapon is broke.

"Just die like you are supposed to" is the argument of a lemming. A zergling. There should always be a counter. There has to be if pvp is going to stay alive. Numbers should never trump skill. That is a terrible idea, and honestly, it will force all of the skilled players to leave this game and the only people in Cyrodiil will be the safety in numbers herds of lemmings.

I should thank you though. You have demonstrated the mindset that can kill a good pvp game faster than anything. I hope the devs take notice of your post so they can use that as a good guide for what not to do.

ChampionSheWolf

caveman42ub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not even sure where to start with this inane bit of drivel. If solo or small group players can't escape a zerg, then the zerg becomes the only viable "tactic". I put tactic in quotes because it really is the anti-tactic. The only real tactic implied in a zerg is safety in numbers. Honestly, the zerg is where you go if you can't hack it in pvp and have no concept of strategy. If thinking hurts, you group up with a herd of others just like you.

This comment makes no sense even on the basic scale. If you are trying to survive in PvP you don't go running into the zerg. Furthermore, it's a war of armies, not the soloist playground. Grouping is highly encouraged. Saying it's anti-tactics is a farce on so many levels, because tactics can change everything. If you just rush at them, sure you are going to die, but a smaller group can beat out a larger group with tactics.

It just boils down tot eh fact that many of the bad PvPers want to be able to solo dozens of players at once because they think they are the only ones with any real skill. Devouring Swarm, of course, easily allowed for this, and the bads abused it. Now it's getting tuned. They don't want to lose that crutch, and it's obvious with how many people keep claiming this is an over nerf.

The_Death_Princess

It is true, I have not played RvR much yet. But having done SO many games, there are always the crowd that MUST have the 'I Win' button.

At the moment, the vamp abilities seem to be it from what I hear. Frankly, I despise it (+ WW) and will always play without. PLEASE GET THIS. That means if you are a vampire or a werewolf, you CANNOT MUST NOT, and ZoS please Ensure WILL NOT ever be more powerful than a non diseased person.

If you want to be 'a I win gawd' find a game that does not support diversity as a Vampire or whatever.

As far as PvE. Well My two toons do just fine, in fact one of them might be OP imho. But the Vamps I see running around trying to play catch up and missing the game play from botting/power level seem to be more so.

SO, get with it. Dont waste gold on this stupidity, and if you choose to not play the game as designed, dont come here crying when they balance it for those of us that do.

Stay strong ZoS. Dont allow any 'buff' (thats what V and WW ARE meant to be) become an I win button.

Tankqull

i personally don´t like nerv bats...
i would have preferred a smoother form of balancing wich includes bug fixing first, get new numbers with fixed abilities and then nerf them to balance them. currently to many things happen in one step to get a proper view of what causes what effect.
even though i´m entirely on the recieving side of batswarms(my vamp didn´t spend one minute in pvp) i´ve never felt the speed was an issue with mistform but the effect of droping out of target locks by activating it in combination with lightning issues making the vamp invisible or nearly invisible was my main gripe.
as well as the bat swarm is rather useless if it does not benefit from multiple stacks a bug that only DKs and sorcs can abuse effectivly wich makes a templar or NB vamp 1/100 of a threat as dks/sorcs are.

so from my pov they should have fixed bugs first, eventually than make ultimates not generate ultimate power on their own or explicitly the swarm.
and then if needed after some testing (a few days not weeks would be enough) to evaluate further changes.

Phoenix99

You are simply bad, if you think so... tactics still is more important than grouping.

Use siege, use positioning, use choke points... you're poor excuse is that you won't be able to run into gazzillion people cast a couple of spells kill 30 ppl and run away while spamming mist + ult

If you consider yourself good and post something like that, then I can assure you, that you are not...

I've been in teams of non vampires and we were still doing well vs masses until VR 10 vampire sorcs/DKs/templars come in with their ult spam and mist form/bolt escape together with the zerg.

the changes are good. after these, they need to hit the sorc as now sorcs will still be using morphed bolt escape with the stun + invis bat swarm spam, due to their cost reductions.

Vampire template will be balanced in itself.

Just learn to play, get better and stop abusing broken mechanics, and ridiculous mobility + near invulnerability for low cost.

Gervis

So you been relying on "broken" skills to get your AP points from kills?
Seriously dude, L2P you are clearly terrible at pvp so play WoW where it will be more suited to you.

Mordenkaiser

I'm a Vampire and I support this nerf.

Vampire should be a option, not a requirement and NOT a crutch.

ChampionSheWolf

The_Death_Princess wrote: »

At the moment, the vamp abilities seem to be it from what I hear. Frankly, I despise it (+ WW) and will always play without. PLEASE GET THIS. That means if you are a vampire or a werewolf, you CANNOT MUST NOT, and ZoS please Ensure WILL NOT ever be more powerful than a non diseased person.

Your point seems to fall flat here. Werewolves are a complete joke right now, and honestly, if you are spending precious skill points they should have an advantage. But not an overwhelming one. And there is an equalizer, it's called the Fighter's Guild. People don't get this point.

Mordenkaiser

cbrown15_ESO wrote: »

The_Death_Princess wrote: »

At the moment, the vamp abilities seem to be it from what I hear. Frankly, I despise it (+ WW) and will always play without. PLEASE GET THIS. That means if you are a vampire or a werewolf, you CANNOT MUST NOT, and ZoS please Ensure WILL NOT ever be more powerful than a non diseased person.

Your point seems to fall flat here. Werewolves are a complete joke right now, and honestly, if you are spending precious skill points they should have an advantage. But not an overwhelming one. And there is an equalizer, it's called the Fighter's Guild. People don't get this point.

I'm guessing your not in the Veteran rank (not ment as a dig at you) skill points are not precious, I'm sitting on 6 right now, have maxed out all my class skills with morphs and passives, maxed out my main weapon and put points into everything I care about in bow. Maxed armor skills. I think the issue is at the moment fighters guide doesn't level the playing field really. Not to mention Vampires most likely advance far faster then fighters guild players.

ChampionSheWolf

Mordenkaiser wrote: »

I'm guessing your not in the Veteran rank (not ment as a dig at you) skill points are not precious, I'm sitting on 6 right now, have maxed out all my class skills with morphs and passives, maxed out my main weapon and put points into everything I care about in bow. Maxed armor skills. I think the issue is at the moment fighters guide doesn't level the playing field really. Not to mention Vampires most likely advance far faster then fighters guild players.

Considering I use build calculator they are, just sounds like you haven't bothered putting points anywhere else, which explains your problems, quite easily.

Syndy

Tandara wrote: »

1. At first batswarm is really the worst ultimate. Just try it or let some of your buddies tell your their expierience pve wise. Than you'll see. It does nigh to nothing in pve. Even dawnbreakeragainst non ud is more useful.

2. No I don't wan't to be farmed by ppl whopress 1 button and think they're dicaprio.

3. No I live longer and win at least 10-15 1vs1 before I die. Sometimes even 1vs2/3(not counting non vet players)

You're sure that you're not one of those guys who run against a single player with 4-5 guys and get a bit later ganked with even 2-3 others players as backup?

Seems like so because I don't think some player who enjoys to run in a zerg has much against us solo players who just wan't get away.

I never zerg, and have many 1v1/2/3 fights that I love... I am not a vamp nor a sorc either.

I know eventually a group will come and kill me, that's fine, that is expected.. If you don't expect it, you are probably playing the wrong pvp game...

IMO there should be NO "get out of jail FREE card" in the game. For sorcs or otherwise, if you make a mistake and try to gank someone and then 5 enemies cap the ridge right in front of you, you should die . Not put on your best Road Runner impression and PEACE OUT...

Thechemicals

Uh...vampire isnt a class...its an enhancement to your character. So yeah....no such thing as too much nerf.

Starshadw

To be honest, I actually suspect it isn't enough of a nerf. Only time will tell, though - which is why I suspect Zen didn't make more changes. They want to see how the cookie crumbles with these changes before tweaking more.

Mordenkaiser

cbrown15_ESO wrote: »

Mordenkaiser wrote: »

I'm guessing your not in the Veteran rank (not ment as a dig at you) skill points are not precious, I'm sitting on 6 right now, have maxed out all my class skills with morphs and passives, maxed out my main weapon and put points into everything I care about in bow. Maxed armor skills. I think the issue is at the moment fighters guide doesn't level the playing field really. Not to mention Vampires most likely advance far faster then fighters guild players.

Considering I use build calculator they are, just sounds like you haven't bothered putting points anywhere else, which explains your problems, quite easily.

Actually...I'm currently VR 4 almost 5. I would seriously reconsider using your Skill point Calculator as it sounds like it is not taking into account a lot of skill points and I also don't understand what "problem" I have at the end of your post.

To outline where my points are to help put it in perspective.

-Heavy Armor...All maxed, Active is morphed.

-All 3 Dragon Knight skill lines bought and morphed (with morphed ults with the exception of the jump) All passives purchased.

-All Vampire actives bought and morphed, All vampire passives purchased except for Savage feeding, Ult purchased and morphed

-All one handed skills bought, 3 morphed, all passives maxed

-2 Active Bow skills bought and morphed, 3 passives maxxed

-3 Active skills for 2handers, 1 morphed, 3 Passives maxed.

-Soul magic skills/passives purchased and morphed, Ult included

-All Black smithing passives purchased and maxxed.

Phoenix88

Fighter's Guild doesn't make up for Vampire issues. The change I think they should've done was make it so that you can't gain ultimate while using an ultimate. You should never be able to use multiple ultimates at once, but you shouldn't even be able to get another ready while one is active.

BloodStorm

Actually Vamps will be buffed in a way. Now the passive buffs wont bug and go away hopefully. So the ult reduction stuff from gear / passives and all the other Vamp passives wont bug out. As a vamp when you die usually it always bugs out and the passives do not work. Now they should be fixed or will be in the future. So in the long run its the opposite of a NERF.

Phoenix99

the game has over 300 SP to use now and more incoming... where do you have meaningful choices with skill points?

ChampionSheWolf

Phoenix99 wrote: »

the game has over 300 SP to use now and more incoming... where do you have meaningful choices with skill points?

And strangely enough it's thought processes like these where people keep believing that DKs and Sorcerers are OP or that shield bash is the best skill.

Phoenix99

cbrown15_ESO wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

the game has over 300 SP to use now and more incoming... where do you have meaningful choices with skill points?

And strangely enough it's thought processes like these where people keep believing that DKs and Sorcerers are OP or that shield bash is the best skill.

DK alone needs a tweak, mainly up in cost to standard by 25-50 ult units... without the vampire synergy it's not mobile enough to be a real threat.

Sorc is too good with the bolt escape spam, and it synergizes extremly good with vampire skill set - invis swarm, due to sorcs cost reductions. if the cost of bolt escape will be brought on par with the stage 4 for mist form, then it's good.

Bash spam is annoying, but when in melee it is best dps for the stamina use, which is odd, since the whole skill line gives the best defensive skills, nice gap closer AND the best dmg per stamina with the bash. it needs to be lowered, so the 2H and dual wield will be the skills with highest dmg per stamina, with bows being behind them and sword and shield being on the lowest tier.

Just because something has a counter, it does not make it not OP. the definition of OP is that something is very good in vast majority of situations and even when countered it takes much more resources from the countering side than from the "OP" side.

Guppet

Tandara wrote: »

In my opinion the "mist" skill was just made from the developers to give the solo players some sort of escape skill from the zerg after they kill an player offguard.

Every mmo needs some class who can do that, but because they had no "class" thing in the common sense they needed to include this otherwise.

They had no money/time for the "dark brootherhood" so they just included a escape skill in the vampire line. Does it make sense? somehow...considering skyrims mist form.

But without any other free for all clases at least 50% working zerg escape tool I won't bother playing it anymore. This is not a "qq" thing it's just that not everyone like it to get roflstomped in an 1vs1 every 15 minutes even it's at the end of the damn map.

I can't count the times anymore where I would ganked by 6-150players without my mistform.

They have no class that can gank and then run away? Now if only they had a class that would suit that style if play. They could call it Nightblade, it would have a great role.

joshisanonymous

f0rgiv3n27b14_ESO wrote: »

I never zerg, and have many 1v1/2/3 fights that I love... I am not a vamp nor a sorc either.

I know eventually a group will come and kill me, that's fine, that is expected.. If you don't expect it, you are probably playing the wrong pvp game...

IMO there should be NO "get out of jail FREE card" in the game. For sorcs or otherwise, if you make a mistake and try to gank someone and then 5 enemies cap the ridge right in front of you, you should die . Not put on your best Road Runner impression and PEACE OUT...

This whole idea that it's impossible to solo without getting run over by a zerg is a bit strange to me, too. Besides what you're saying, soloing is as much about knowing when and where to engage as it is about playing a class that has better (better, not guaranteed) chances of getting away from a zerg. The map is massive and there are so many valleys and obstacles that it feels pretty easy to find fights where a zerg might even run right by you without ever noticing. Hell, I'd wager that most people don't even know how to pan behind them while running forward because of the mechanics, making it even easier to get around undetected.

I still wouldn't play a DK or Templar when exclusively soloing, but there's no reason to believe that they're incapable of doing this. People used to successfully solo in DAoC with tanks; there were no mounts or anything for speed, no escape tools, not even sneaking was available, and the (NF) map was not set up as well for this at all.

ekupfererub17_ESO

I am a DK/Vamp and I am fine with the patch. The ZOS team has access to all the actual numbers so they made a decision based on what they were seeing. I am fine with that.

ChairGraveyard

alexion891ub17_ESO wrote: »

The nerf, as many of my vampire kin and others have said doesn't actually fix the problem at all. Instead it nerfs mist and drain. DKs/Sorcs can still spam bat swarm after this patch.

Agreed.

Just to nip any people coming in here to be jerks and claim we're all bat swarm abusers - we WANT bat swarm fixed.

The current nerf does not fix the bat swarm spamming but does screw up the other two skills for no reason.

I know plenty of people will come in and post irrelevant straw man comments, but if you actually read you'll notice no one is saying bat swarm nerfs need undone - quite the *contrary* - the current nerf does not fix ultimate spam at all.

The nerf DOES ruin the vamp abilities for PvE and gets rid of any usefulness they had in PvP, which wasn't much.

Milky

Good changes to vamp. Exploiters of bat swarm will have to learn to use their ult as an ult now, and not as spammable god mode.

Players will need to learn that mist form isn't a spammable get out of jail free card, use it effectively, not for when you over-extend. Learn your lesson.

Too bad they didn't fix all the werewolf ult bugs, I wasn't even aware of the speed bonus bug. Losing all your ultimate when leaving were form is pretty silly, especially since it costs 1000 ultimate. Also morphing your transform ultimate breaks it completely and you can't even transform anymore lol.

All in all, good changes to vamp. Exploiters will rage. Good players will nod their heads and continue to play vamp effectively.

Zargorius

These changes are very welcome indeed and its easy to make out the cheaters that keep defending the broken mechanic

Milky

Mordenkaiser wrote: »

I'm a Vampire and I support this nerf.

Vampire should be a option, not a requirement and NOT a crutch.

^ This, so much this^

What would happen if bat swarm and mist form were not nerfed? As mordenkaiser said, it would be a requirement for everyone to run it, in order to be competitive. That makes for an awfully boring game.

Good fixes to vampire (They're not nerfs if they're bugs and unintended)

frwinters_ESO

When abilities are adjusted, people will always find new ways to use them. Most of you who have been using these abilities will rage quit or cure your vampirism and just QQ cause your not uber cool anymore. Others will accept the change, and simply adjust there play style and continue to kill on the battle field.