Whining is OP and will ruin PVP

Smogg

It has been just a month. People are still figuring out builds and counters, and we have just begun to see a few very powerful builds. Some people are killed and they don't understand why, when they dont understand why, they come here to whine.

If they don't play a vampire, they dont want vampires to be dangerous. If they dont place a nightblade they dont want nightblades to be dangerous. If they are not V10 they dont want V10 to be dangerous. If they only pvp 2 hours a day, they dont want players who pvp 10 hours a day to be dangerous. Let's not even mention the emperor.

Zenimax, please stay true to your vision around pvp, listen to players, but give players a chance to find counters and strategies first before changing a skill. Listen to players, but verify your statistics before changing anything. If something is overpowered but only 1% use it, maybe it's not breaking the game afterall.

Personally if you do have to nerf certain skills, i would much rather see new skill trees with skills to counter those problems.

Now I am not saying that any kind of adjustment to skill is a no-go, just that it should only be done if it is really gamebreaking, everyone takes it, there are no real counters and it goes against the intention of how pvp should work.

Granted the vampire bat dragon knight ultimate recovery, reduction and block situation is very powerful. Maybe it does deserve a look from a design perspective to verify if this is truely the intesion of the pvp dynamics. However it should also be noted that this is not usefull in every situation, it is a very strong trick in specific situations. Generally I am in favor of builds that shine each under their own circumstances, this allow you to pick the battles you can win and avoid the battles you will loose.

Over time we may see other very powerful builds. Maybe the bat trick is just one of many to come. How about we stay cool about it for just a while longer, put on the creative hat, and when more people have reach v10, we will have a much more realistic picture of what is actually overpowered or not.

Right now the only group who can really end up OP if we are not carefull are the whiners because if we go down a nerfing path already now, where most are still making their way towards v10, nerfing wont stop untill every class and skill can all do the same with just different colors and animations. And mind you, when this happens, the whiners will be the first to leave the game anyway and the rest of us will try keep playing while we wish for pvp as it was when the game was launched.

TedLevine

^^^^^THIS, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this! THIS is exactly what I have been saying. People who play video games today, don't want to take the time or effort to figure out the mechanics of a video game so that they can live against X build that is tearing people up. Gamers today are lazy, self entitled, and selfish, they don't care about the game as a whole, or other people that play the game. They only care about themselves, and if they got beat by someone or some build, rather than take the time to figure out how to beat that build they would rather spend that time here crying on the forums, "he beat me up, if you don't do something i'm going to quit".

Reavan

Reported for trolling

Thevenin

Academic case of "preaching for your own church".
When evereyone - except some people who play those particular builds - thinks there's an issue with half a dozen skills, there is an issue with half a dozen skills.
I do very well understand you want to keep your AoE spamming vampire DK as is, taking on 30+ people playing other builds, but in a few months when Cyrodiil is be down to a few dozens of vampires spamming their bats on each other, I doubt Zenimax sees it as a financial and gaming success.

TheBull

Thevenin wrote: »

Academic case of "preaching for your own church".
When evereyone - except some people who play those particular builds - thinks there's an issue with half a dozen skills, there is an issue with half a dozen skills.
I do very well understand you want to keep your AoE spamming vampire DK as is, taking on 30+ people playing other builds, but in a few months when Cyrodiil is be down to a few dozens of vampires spamming their bats on each other, I doubt Zenimax sees it as a financial and gaming success.

This is all that matters. The scary thing is that it might not take a few months...

knaveofengland

I think forums was set up this way so all can have a say , just about any and every thing has been talked about , we are all critics better to support than hinder

TedLevine

Reavan wrote: »

Reported for trolling

Okay, not only was I stating my opinion, and just agreeing with him, I wasn't attacking A person on the forums. It was an opinion based on years of experience playing video games since the dawn of MMO's and an observation on how the gaming community as a whole has changed over those years. Report all you want, people generally react that way when they don't want to hear the truth that is coming out of someone else's mouth.

Here let me break it down for you like this, I'll put a couple of little tactics up here for those who don't want to take the time to figure out the mechanics, I'll serve them up to you on a silver platter like you asked for so that people can stop whining and the devs won't ruin the game because they listened to the vast majority who had no clue what they were talking about.

Mist Form + Bat Swarm - Get a friend, just 1, make sure one of you are a sorc, drop a null field on top of the vampires head, root him in place and melt him with fire spells, 2 seconds later bar-b-que vampire. Oh, and remember this is a team game, not a single player game, so there will be some abilities that are more powerful than others, and may require you to have a friend to combat them. It's a team game, learn to play with a team.

Oh, and here's a novel thought, when you see 1 or 2 enemies charging into your large group its probably a vampire trying to bat swarm you, SPREAD, trash him from a distance, if he can't hit 30 people with bat swarm, he cant get healed. And yes it works.

Dragon Knight Talons Spam Rooting - Retreating Maneuvers, breaks all snares and roots and makes you INVULNERABLE to them for the duration of 20 seconds, let him chase you around spamming his dragon talons until he is out of mana and them trash him.

My guild and I have been using these abilities with great success because rather than coming here and whining about how this or that is OP we chose to find a way to beat it. And I don't want to hear about how this isn't going to work because of this, or that, because we have been doing it, and it works. Go find some friends and try it, you just might be surprised about how well it works.

And if you come back here and say it doesn't work, and you were by your self, well all I can say is LOL.

Inzababa

you simply have no idea

TedLevine

Inzababa wrote: »

you simply have no idea

Wow, just wow. I just handed you a couple of tactics, that mind you we use and do work, against the very things that the entire forum is in an uproar about, and this is the response.

I mean you didn't even bother to submit your opinions on why it wouldn't work you just dismissed the idea all together.

Try it, just try it. Please.

MustyBritches

Anyone remember the way Warhammer handled early balancing? They DIDN'T! and it cost them the entire game! People left by the tens of thousands early on because of the abuse of AEO's with no need for LOS. They eventually fixed the problems, but it was far too late, they waited 6 months while a couple of classes were just facerolling the entire population of the game.

People will be inventive and find ways to utilize any system in a way that it possibly wasn't intended for. Or to a level that makes it "unbalanced". These things NEED to be adjusted for the health of the overall game.

Even if they make changes that are not for the best in the LONG term they can buff them back up at some point if it is required.

This is not a situation where they can "sit and wait".

At this point I expect them to lose ~50% of their PvP base at or near the "resub" point if they don't let us know what the plan is for balance, because it just ISN'T balanced in any way shape or form.

Eris

It's funny, I originally read the title as Winning is over powered and will ruin PVP. I thought that is a funny statement to make because that means the only way not to be over powered is to be losing in PVP. Then I looked at it closer and saw that I was wrong, but I figured I'd share since it was kind of humorous.

darthbelanb14_ESO

Reavan wrote: »

Reported for trolling

Reported the above quoted post for trolling.

Smogg

@MustyBritches
I would say that the game intend for players to be creative and come up with builds that the designers never even thought about.
I would say that builds were never meant to be balanced at all. Some builds will be superior to others in specific situations. I belive that was intended as well.
I also belive it was intended for the pvp sceene to be rich with many diffent unique builds.

This is the game I want to keep playing. If I wanted the game you describe, there are many other MMO's i could turn to, and surly some will. Bless their hearts.

In short any talk about adjusting or nerfing unintended builds are just crazy to me, because unintended builds is part of the core idea of a system where the number of possible builds exceed the population on the earth by many factors.

But of course, if many players start all to turn towards the same build because it becomes a no-brainer and if that particular build conflicts with the vision behind the whole pvp system, the skills involved should be looked at carefully.

At the same time only a small portion of players have reached v10. Many are still building up levels in their skills, some have yet to aquire all skills they hope for. There are going to be many more powerful builds, thats intended, the question is what players are going to do with it?

Eldrenath

Thevenin wrote: »

Academic case of "preaching for your own church".
When evereyone - except some people who play those particular builds - thinks there's an issue with half a dozen skills, there is an issue with half a dozen skills.
I do very well understand you want to keep your AoE spamming vampire DK as is, taking on 30+ people playing other builds, but in a few months when Cyrodiil is be down to a few dozens of vampires spamming their bats on each other, I doubt Zenimax sees it as a financial and gaming success.

100% agree.

It's hilarious to me that the OP would say today's gamers want everything handed to them when they want to get vamp powers and have everything handed to him. As you said in this post--very nearly everyone EXCEPT those abusing this clearly OP nonsense believes that it is silly nonsense that completely undercuts one of the BIGGEST selling points of this game (that you can have a huge list of build possibilities due to the freedom of character development).

OP is whiny and @TedLevine‌ is self-entitled. They want to be self-entitled to solo entire groups of players because they can mash a single button. Nonsense.

Smogg

@Eldrenath
It's ok to have a different opinion. Cheer up friend.

@Eris
And nice word game with the "OP" well played.

In the end I think we all want ESO to be a success, we just have slightly different opinions on what will make ESO that special game a year from now. So in any case good luck to Zenimax and to everyone else: Go kill some bats.

TedLevine

Eldrenath wrote: »

Thevenin wrote: »

Academic case of "preaching for your own church".
When evereyone - except some people who play those particular builds - thinks there's an issue with half a dozen skills, there is an issue with half a dozen skills.
I do very well understand you want to keep your AoE spamming vampire DK as is, taking on 30+ people playing other builds, but in a few months when Cyrodiil is be down to a few dozens of vampires spamming their bats on each other, I doubt Zenimax sees it as a financial and gaming success.

100% agree.

It's hilarious to me that the OP would say today's gamers want everything handed to them when they want to get vamp powers and have everything handed to him. As you said in this post--very nearly everyone EXCEPT those abusing this clearly OP nonsense believes that it is silly nonsense that completely undercuts one of the BIGGEST selling points of this game (that you can have a huge list of build possibilities due to the freedom of character development).

OP is whiny and @TedLevine‌ is self-entitled. They want to be self-entitled to solo entire groups of players because they can mash a single button. Nonsense.

Just to be Clear, I am a Templar, and I find ways to kill Vampires, as I have posted above. I am not using the Bat Swarm + Vampire Mist tactic, nor do I condone it. I am simply making a statement about how easy it is to combat this tactic, just as easy as whining here on the forms about how OP it is. I am simply making a statement about how gamers would rather whine and have everything handed to them, than to actually put some effort into figuring out how to counter said builds. I am simply trying to educate the community at large that are crying nerf, that there are ways in the current game to defeat this tactic. I am not defending this build. Its the opposite, I am telling you how to counter it. (Read the above post instead of assuming)

I just want people to understand that by asking for a nerf before they even understand ALL of the mechanics in the game simply because it is easier to ask for a nerf rather than figuring out a counter, is what ruins video games today.

So please quit assuming that I play this build and wreck people with it, and that I am defending the build when you clearly haven't taken the time to really read my post and understand what I am saying.

There ARE ways to counter the Vampire in the game, please learn the mechanics, then when you start using them you will understand there are other things in this game that are way worse then Vampires.

LadyChaos

the problem isn't that tweaks don't need to happen. The problem is people DEMAND outright reworking and major changes to fit particular situations. First thing I recall seeing was VERY briefly NB, then Templars, then DKs so OP... then sorcerer, then vamp... I can honestly say I've never seen WW OP thread, but I might have been sleeping idk.

Granted some of the issues are important to work out, but every single thing that annoys players becomes the new major MUST FIX NOW OR I QUIT cause... when a lot work themselves out in time, player level base adjusts, new techniques learned etc. The big stuff is lost in all of the "it's not fair" stuff.

Evolution of gameplay/skill changes is far more stable than revolving class/skill-line "nerfs"/reworks.

Inzababa

TedLevine wrote: »

Inzababa wrote: »

you simply have no idea

Wow, just wow. I just handed you a couple of tactics, that mind you we use and do work, against the very things that the entire forum is in an uproar about, and this is the response.

I mean you didn't even bother to submit your opinions on why it wouldn't work you just dismissed the idea all together.

Try it, just try it. Please.

here you go, and you're welcome....



just throwing this out there to counter the pvp theorycrafters or pve nubs



http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/80641/there-is-no-way-2-people-vamps-should-be-able-to-wipe-out-an-entire-zerg#latest

Nick_Klaus wrote: »

Funny most of these vampires are from Ebonheart Pact. All campaigns are spoiled because "Ultimate" cheat.

Watch and tell me how this is still allowed? 0 Ultimate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucmjldufa6U

n3c wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtN-rB0OQVU

that thread has now 17K views and ZERO comments from Zenimax

RaZaddha

I'm sorry OP, but we are not so blind as to think that theres nothing wrong with the game and it's "perfectly balanced", it's very easy to see how broken vampires are. When you have 6+ threads about vampires, theres something terribly wrong with it. When you have a single player stand still all by himself spamming a single skill, you have something terrible wrong with it. When you spend more time in Cyrodiil trying to kill a vampire than killing any other type of enemy, theres something terribly wrong with it.
Everyone has a different idea for balance, but whos right? We'll se once Cyrodiil is nothing but vampires...

Phoenix99

There is a ton of balance issues with this game and yes, there will be whining for other skill combinations once the vamp will be fixed, because they are unbalanced. The problem with the game is that it's main focus is PvE and it will always be the priority, hence the PvP balance will suffer as a result for a very long time if not indefinitely.

The vamp cheese is just the most glaring and annoying. Yes, you _sometimes_ can kill the god like vampire build bu it requires a lot of co-ordination, very specific builds and is really not comparable in resource spent and risk taken vs what the vampire cheese builds face.

the game drastically needs:

1) more equilibrium in stamina users vs magicka users
2) more magicka muting skills and magicka draining skills
3) reliable lockdowns vs high mobility skills (for example while rooted you should not be able to bolt away, mist is already locked)
4) more detection tools for invis and stealthed targets

if every build will have a multitude of reliable counters and where a vast majority of skills will be usable in PvP, then the PvP is balanced. Currently not a lot of skills are PvP applicable and some builds are too good, because they have almost no reliable counter and it requires an extreme amount of co-ordination and use of resources just to bring one down and even then it is difficult.

Woogawoman

What I got out of the OP was:

"Please don't make knee-jerk decisions based on who posts the most/loudest. Take the time to do the research, determine how the concerns fit into the overall strategy, and then decide what to do."

I support that approach.

Libertine

MustyBritches wrote: »

Anyone remember the way Warhammer handled early balancing? They DIDN'T! and it cost them the entire game! People left by the tens of thousands early on because of the abuse of AEO's with no need for LOS. They eventually fixed the problems, but it was far too late, they waited 6 months while a couple of classes were just facerolling the entire population of the game.

this...im always surprised how people always forget warhammer and how that game more or less commited assisted suicide.
the BWs and WPs early on were a joke and by the time they finally acknowledged that fixed them(to some degree at least) the majority had left for good.
as a matter of fact ESO is following the same pattern...no initial raid content so essentiall all you have to do at VR10 at this point is PVP and that is broken...same with warhammer...when they released land of the dead it was way too late

Xnemesis

Thevenin wrote: »

Academic case of "preaching for your own church".
When evereyone - except some people who play those particular builds - thinks there's an issue with half a dozen skills, there is an issue with half a dozen skills.
I do very well understand you want to keep your AoE spamming vampire DK as is, taking on 30+ people playing other builds, but in a few months when Cyrodiil is be down to a few dozens of vampires spamming their bats on each other, I doubt Zenimax sees it as a financial and gaming success.

Use coordination tell your group to spread out and stay at ranged when taking on a player that uses this tactic. AOEs have ranges and Caps so this seems like a silly argument. using voip or /yell commands help to coordinate things help tremendously. also soul assault is probably the most powerful single target spell in the game use it and reap when in a 1vs1 battle especially if you can use it from stealth behind a player that is caught off guard. Then charge in and stun to finish them off if need be.

It does need a nerf though Either so you cant spam it or so that is wont do damage. My point is they can be killed with coordination

TedLevine

"just throwing this out there to counter the pvp theorycrafters or pve nubs "

This is not Theorycraft, this works, if you don't want to try to up your game, and you still want to cry nerf, then I understand.

Let me explain in the simplest language I can possibly explain it. I have watched these video's, I have personally with my guild seen these V10 vamps, and 1 Null Field, and 1 Root later, this video would have been a totally different video. Just because the community of gamers at large doesn't understand the mechanics, or doesn't wish to learn them, and someone makes a video of 1 or 2 people destroying that same community, doesn't make it broken.

I am not arguing on the merits of whether the skill/s are broken, I am not arguing on whether it should be changed, in fact I am not arguing your point at all. My problem with this whole cry nerf on Vampires is, everyone JUST wants a nerf, when there are clearly counters to a Vampire and no one wants to learn how to use them.

Null Field negates Mist Form.
Null Field negates Bat Swarm.
Null Field negates EVERY ability.
Null Field even negates Weapon Swap.

Catch a Vampire in a Null Field and the Vampire is DEAD.
Catch ANYONE in a Null Field and THEY ARE DEAD.

Now which is more OP.

"that thread has now 17K views and ZERO comments from Zenimax"

Probably because it isn't as big an issue as the community is making out to be simply because Zenimax understands the mechanics in place in the game and the Community doesn't.

LadyChaos

Phoenix99 wrote: »

There is a ton of balance issues with this game and yes, there will be whining for other skill combinations once the vamp will be fixed, because they are unbalanced. The problem with the game is that it's main focus is PvE and it will always be the priority, hence the PvP balance will suffer as a result for a very long time if not indefinitely.

The vamp cheese is just the most glaring and annoying. Yes, you _sometimes_ can kill the god like vampire build bu it requires a lot of co-ordination, very specific builds and is really not comparable in resource spent and risk taken vs what the vampire cheese builds face.

the game drastically needs:

1) more equilibrium in stamina users vs magicka users
2) more magicka muting skills and magicka draining skills
3) reliable lockdowns vs high mobility skills (for example while rooted you should not be able to bolt away, mist is already locked)
4) more detection tools for invis and stealthed targets

if every build will have a multitude of reliable counters and where a vast majority of skills will be usable in PvP, then the PvP is balanced. Currently not a lot of skills are PvP applicable and some builds are too good, because they have almost no reliable counter and it requires an extreme amount of co-ordination and use of resources just to bring one down and even then it is difficult.

It is unfortunate not enough feedback is so constructive. Annoy vs Destroy are very very different levels of red alert IMO.

I agree with all 4 feedback points myself and think they are at the heart of all the minor-moderate balance issues.

Phoenix99

TedLevine wrote: »

Catch ANYONE in a Null Field and THEY ARE DEAD.

Not true, there is a large number of stamina users which laugh at null field, besides nullfield is what 250 utl cost? do you reall want to compare this to high dmg low cost ults?

It is also only a one skill with "mute/silence" ability. we need more of those + magicka draining abilities

roflcopter

I see alot of "I find a way to kill vamps"

to be honest I haven't touched PVP (and I am a big pvper) yet because of some of the posts on this subject, not worth my aggravation. Correct me if I am wrong though, its not so much 1 player being able to kill 1 vamp as it is 30 players getting killed by 1 vamp. I thought this game was based more around group pvp rather than a 1v1 scenario. The videos I have been seeing on this subject really make me stay away for now.

It does seem like there are some major balancing issues that need to get tweaked.

Inzababa

TedLevine wrote: »

I am not arguing on the merits of whether the skill/s are broken, I am not arguing on whether it should be changed, in fact I am not arguing your point at all. My problem with this whole cry nerf on Vampires is, everyone JUST wants a nerf, when there are clearly counters to a Vampire and no one wants to learn how to use them.

perfect.

Then we don't disagree.

The whining comes from people who are THIS CLOSE to quitting the game and are hoping ZENIMAX wakes the HELL UP and does something about it before they take that decision.

Most of the players I know love the game and actually don't want to leave the game, but this is GAME BREAKING for them and me and many others.

I'm seeing people quit the game or go on "breaks" every day, and every day the numbers increase, this is something important that everyone SHOULD whine about.

Again, I would agree on most of your points for most problems but this is taking things way too far.

Samadhi

Smogg wrote: »

...
Over time we may see other very powerful builds. Maybe the bat trick is just one of many to come. How about we stay cool about it for just a while longer, put on the creative hat, and when more people have reach v10, we will have a much more realistic picture of what is actually overpowered or not.
...

There will always be more; it's the way things counterbalance themselves.

LadyChaos wrote: »

the problem isn't that tweaks don't need to happen. The problem is people DEMAND outright reworking and major changes to fit particular situations. First thing I recall seeing was VERY briefly NB, then Templars, then DKs so OP... then sorcerer, then vamp... I can honestly say I've never seen WW OP thread, but I might have been sleeping idk.
...

I don't think Werewolf threads will be as vitriolic as Vampire threads, mainly because Werewolf get bonuses for working together in groups whereas Vampire's bonuses can more directly benefit individual players.
I also somewhat think that any such impending flames would be directed at Werewolf guilds over individual player capabilities though.
Realistically, I read your post as saying "when people finally comprehend how to work around something they find something new to complain about."

roflcopter wrote: »

I see alot of "I find a way to kill vamps"

to be honest I haven't touched PVP (and I am a big pvper) yet because of some of the posts on this subject, not worth my aggravation. ...

As soon as you hit level 10, start spending time in Cyrodiil. I see no reason not to except for preference toward PvE content.

roflcopter

As soon as you hit level 10, start spending time in Cyrodiil. I see no reason not to except for preference toward PvE content.

I am just about level 50. PVP based off these forums seems like it needs tweaking still. What more can I say. I am not looking for a fix, but more of a better balance. I know I shouldn't rely on just forum posts alone, but those videos being posted tell a bigger story than just go spend time in Cyrodiil. I can deal with OP builds, most played classes etc... but the vamp vids and hopping in on that is not worth my time or the group that I roll withs time atm. We will get there.. just not now.

I would rather as of right now, not get aggravated over silly things that will even itself out over time and enjoy it when it gets ironed out. Just to be clear my preference in MMORPGs always revolve around PVP (Mortal Online, Darkfall Online are just two that I spent a decent amount of time in). To me, it just isn't ready yet. It will get there. I will just wait it out

NordJitsu

There certainly are lots of calls for unjust nerfs. For instance, the people who think Bolt Escape is OP or the guy who made the "Templars OP" thread.

Then there are people who have been playing the game in Beta for a year and understand the mechanics, classes, and skills inside and out.

You need to read and evaluate the arguments individually to decide whether the person is a "whiner" or someone with a legitimate balance argument.