Are campers just as detrimental as bots?

SeñorCinco

This poll was created out of curiosity if the general consensus considers campers to be the equivalent of boss botting.

This was in discussion form the Customer Support forum, for whatever reason I'd suspect due to no General Discussion. However, it was closed due to a political outlash.

Leave your personal attacks and political views at the door please.

IMO, a group of boss campers are just as detrimental to the game and the gaming experience as a group of bots. The argument of an automated character vs a controlled character is weak, when the outcome is the exact same.

It makes no difference if you set a trap or pull the trigger. It's still murder.

RustyBlades

I report them all, let the devs sort out if they are bots or bannable. I just report them all, get my one kill on the boss, and leave.

Divayith

I voted no simply because most players camping are usually just farming a blue or a few soul shards. They will usually leave within a half a dozen kills. I know I tend to kill every dungeon boss at least 2 times before I leave.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

No, because now you are trying to force playstyles on people.

Bramir

Camping a boss a few times to get the drop you want is worlds different from using a bit of code to camp it indefinitely in order to make coin. Maybe you need to define what camping means, and someone needs to smack the *** out of the people who think people trying to get a drop are as bad as bots.

Gisgo

RustyBlades wrote: »

I report them all, let the devs sort out if they are bots or bannable. I just report them all, get my one kill on the boss, and leave.

Thats the way to NOT do it.
The DEVs needs to go through a 95% of false flag cases to find the real botters, and trust me this is NOT helping.

Report bots if you think they are bots, not because they are annoying to you.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Gisgo wrote: »

RustyBlades wrote: »

I report them all, let the devs sort out if they are bots or bannable. I just report them all, get my one kill on the boss, and leave.

Thats the way to NOT do it.
The DEVs needs to go through a 95% of false flag cases to find the real botters, and trust me this is NOT helping.

Thats how a friend got banned accidentally. because of that poster you quoted. People like that shouldnt be playing mmos.

Gisgo

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

RustyBlades wrote: »

I report them all, let the devs sort out if they are bots or bannable. I just report them all, get my one kill on the boss, and leave.

Thats the way to NOT do it.
The DEVs needs to go through a 95% of false flag cases to find the real botters, and trust me this is NOT helping.

Thats how a friend got banned accidentally. because of that poster you quoted. People like that shouldnt be playing mmos.

Imho after one reports too many false flag cases his reports shouldnt be investigated anymore.

Its too easy to turn a legit argument into a witchunt.

SeñorCinco

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

No, because now you are trying to force playstyles on people.

But aren't you forcing the same issue when you camp a boss?

I am not opposed to farming, in general. By that I mean, ( for ex.) having a route you travel to rune locations. Camping a boss hinders the basic gameplay of others. Standing in a single location and repeatedly killing the same boss over and over is not farming. IMO that is a blatant exploit.

I pay a script to actually "play" the game and not compete for a hit just to advance the quest. By camping a boss, the campers are forcing the ramifications of their exploits on everyone else.

Mailmann

Overall, I would say that I don't have much of a problem with campers... until I see them. I really love getting into the immersiveness of the world and when I see this behavior in other players (not just bots) it really damages my calm.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

SeñorCinco wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

No, because now you are trying to force playstyles on people.

But aren't you forcing the same issue when you camp a boss?

I am not opposed to farming, in general. By that I mean, ( for ex.) having a route you travel to rune locations. Camping a boss hinders the basic gameplay of others. Standing in a single location and repeatedly killing the same boss over and over is not farming. IMO that is a blatant exploit.

I pay a script to actually "play" the game and not compete for a hit just to advance the quest. By camping a boss, the campers are forcing the ramifications of their exploits on everyone else.

How does it affect you? If you get a hit on it it counts for you too.

SeñorCinco

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

How does it affect you? If you get a hit on it it counts for you too.

Because it directly inhibits the accomplishment of the challenge of it being a "boss" fight.

I'm not paying for others to play the game for me and that is exactly what campers and bots alike are doing. You are robbing the enjoyment of the challenge from the game.

Thus, you are also forcing the player to attune to the playstyle, if it can even be called that, of the campers.

RustyBlades

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Thats how a friend got banned accidentally. because of that poster you quoted. People like that shouldnt be playing mmos.

He got banned for accidentally spawn camping a boss 20x in a row, by accident? Most campers kill the boss in 2-3 seconds so no one else can get damage in on the boss, most campers aren't alone, and most campers deliberately try to "cut" everyone out of the kill. I don't report them by accident - I report them for intentionally cutting everyone else out of getting at least one kill on the boss as they are just passing through to complete a quest. You are right, your friend shouldn't be playing mmo's.

Almost every other boss camper I have ran across is multi-consoling (indicating by only one member of the party every going into their inventory to sort out junk).

Gisgo

RustyBlades wrote: »

He got banned for accidentally spawn camping a boss 20x in a row, by accident? Most campers kill the boss in 2-3 seconds so no one else can get damage in on the boss, most campers aren't alone, and most campers deliberately try to "cut" everyone out of the kill. I don't report them by accident - I report them for intentionally cutting everyone else out of getting at least one kill on the boss as they are just passing through to complete a quest. You are right, your friend shouldn't be playing mmo's.

Almost every other boss camper I have ran across is multi-consoling (indicating by only one member of the party every going into their inventory to sort out junk).

You sound like someone who reports anyone in sight just because you are angry that they are breaking your "immersion", effectively abusing the report tool.

And should be reported :P

Mailmann

SeñorCinco wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

How does it affect you? If you get a hit on it it counts for you too.

Because it directly inhibits the accomplishment of the challenge of it being a "boss" fight.

I'm not paying for others to play the game for me and that is exactly what campers and bots alike are doing. You are robbing the enjoyment of the challenge from the game.

Exactly! I don't feel very triumphant when all I did to defeat a very tough opponent was to (I'm sorry. I couldn't help it.) shoot an arrow in his knee. That and the horrible bot problem is why I would really like to see ZOS abandon this public dungeon endeavor. It was a great idea in theory, but it's just too immersion breaking to be viable. I would like to see them make all dungeons instanced to the player and and scale in difficulty/loot to the size of the group.

Gisgo

Mailmann wrote: »

Exactly! I don't feel very triumphant when all I did to defeat a very tough opponent was to (I'm sorry. I couldn't help it.) shoot an arrow in his knee. That and the horrible bot problem is why I would really like to see ZOS abandon this public dungeon endeavor. It was a great idea in theory, but it's just too immersion breaking to be viable. I would like to see them make all dungeons instanced to the player and and scale in difficulty/loot to the size of the group.

And then half of the forum would cry because they cant clear the dungeons alone...
They just CANT win.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

SeñorCinco wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

How does it affect you? If you get a hit on it it counts for you too.

Because it directly inhibits the accomplishment of the challenge of it being a "boss" fight.

I'm not paying for others to play the game for me and that is exactly what campers and bots alike are doing. You are robbing the enjoyment of the challenge from the game.

Thus, you are also forcing the player to attune to the playstyle, if it can even be called that, of the campers.

So you want a single player game?

Mailmann

Gisgo wrote: »

And then half of the forum would cry because they cant clear the dungeons alone...
They just CANT win.

That's the real problem here. I don't thing ZOS ever decided which came first with ESO... an immersive RPG experience that we've all come to expect from an Elder Scrolls game or the MMORPG experience that many gamers have grown accustomed to.

scabrous_ftz

Fr me it depends on how you define campers.

I was very excited last weekend to finally go into a public dungeon and not see bots. I was even more excited to be able to loot the end boss. And I finally discovered that they (sometimes) have good loot.

So I found myself sitting through ~6 or so spawns so that I could get the blue loot. But then I would be on my way. So, I guess that makes me a camper. But I don't think I ruined anyone else's chance to kill/loot the boss. I hope.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Mailmann wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

And then half of the forum would cry because they cant clear the dungeons alone...
They just CANT win.

That's the real problem here. I don't thing ZOS ever decided which came first with ESO... an immersive RPG experience that we've all come to expect from an Elder Scrolls game or the MMORPG experience that many gamers have grown accustomed to.

No the problem is with people who think ESO should be a single player game.

SeñorCinco

Gisgo wrote: »

And then half of the forum would cry because they cant clear the dungeons alone...

And they will have the same core options to address that issue.
1- Like any other game, MMO or not, level up some more and return with a stronger character.
2 - Get some help. Which is the basis of an MMO with group play.

Either way, without at least instancing the boss fight to an individual or their group, you remove the need for any given player to have a competitive initiative to do anything.

Rosveen

I'm not sure. Like you said, the outcome is the same. If I can't get a hit on the boss because the crowd around him kills him in seconds, I don't care if the characters are automated or controlled by a player. On the other hand, I sometimes stay in a dungeon to repeatedly kill the boss too; I don't intend to camp, but half of the time I don't get any loot and it's a little annoying. So I would not report legitimate players who might just be waiting for a blue to drop and then leave.

SeñorCinco wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

How does it affect you? If you get a hit on it it counts for you too.

Because it directly inhibits the accomplishment of the challenge of it being a "boss" fight.

I'm not paying for others to play the game for me and that is exactly what campers and bots alike are doing. You are robbing the enjoyment of the challenge from the game.

Thus, you are also forcing the player to attune to the playstyle, if it can even be called that, of the campers.

You find challenge in public dungeons? Even without bots and campers, there are usually other people helping you defeat the boss. It can be a nice, social group effort, but not exactly an epic battle testing your strength and skill.

Mailmann

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

No the problem is with people who think ESO should be a single player game.

Well, that certainly isn't helping either... I'll give ya that.

Yankee

RustyBlades wrote: »

I report them all, let the devs sort out if they are bots or bannable. I just report them all, get my one kill on the boss, and leave.

I would not report to this extent. But I also see no purpose in standing around the boss farming it. Kill it, get the drop, move on to something else.

SeñorCinco

Rosveen wrote: »

I don't intend to camp, but half of the time I don't get any loot and it's a little annoying. .

If you are the same Kitty form the Beth forums, then...o/ If not ten o/, anyway. It is good to see you or to meet you, which ever the case may be.

To address your statement, the campers/bots are preventing you from getting loot because you must do a given amount of damage to inherit any loot at all.

You find challenge in public dungeons? Even without bots and campers, there are usually other people helping you defeat the boss. It can be a nice, social group effort, but not exactly an epic battle testing your strength and skill.

I completely agree with the social element. I have met friends and play with them today from meeting in a dungeon. However, the challenge is still there.

Had the boss been camped, we would have never truly acknowledged each other in the first place.

SeñorCinco

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

So you want a single player game?

Really? In defense of your having to camp a boss fight, you come to the plate with that?

I am compelled to ask... So, you support bots camping a boss?

Foxhunt

RustyBlades wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Thats how a friend got banned accidentally. because of that poster you quoted. People like that shouldnt be playing mmos.

He got banned for accidentally spawn camping a boss 20x in a row, by accident? Most campers kill the boss in 2-3 seconds so no one else can get damage in on the boss, most campers aren't alone, and most campers deliberately try to "cut" everyone out of the kill. I don't report them by accident - I report them for intentionally cutting everyone else out of getting at least one kill on the boss as they are just passing through to complete a quest. You are right, your friend shouldn't be playing mmo's.

Almost every other boss camper I have ran across is multi-consoling (indicating by only one member of the party every going into their inventory to sort out junk).

How can you tell who is deliberately killing a boss and who is just killing a boss for loot? (I sometimes hang around for several kills to get the soul gems). So you just go around and report anyone and everyone standing around a public dungeon boss just because they are killing him more than once?

How do you know they're in a party? Do you just assume that these people standing around must all be in a party and because that one guy is the only one who cares enough to check his inventory he must be the one multi-consoling?


"Reporting them all" helps no one and only slows down the process with many most likely false reports. You are apart of the problem.

nudel

SeñorCinco wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

And then half of the forum would cry because they cant clear the dungeons alone...

And they will have the same core options to address that issue.
1- Like any other game, MMO or not, level up some more and return with a stronger character.
2 - Get some help. Which is the basis of an MMO with group play.

Either way, without at least instancing the boss fight to an individual or their group, you remove the need for any given player to have a competitive initiative to do anything.

This argument is based largely on the assumption that all ESO players are MMO or even multiplayer veterans. They are not. ZOS knew going into this that it would draw fans of the solo RPG franchise just as much as the traditional MMO crowd. Many of the design decisions reflect an incentive towards group play rather than forced grouping. Having much of the content not instanced facilitates this. People who have misgivings about group play for whatever reason (social anxiety, poor past experiences, lack of MMO experience) will find it easier to transition into grouping if there are moments where they are helped randomly.

This spontaneous group play is really where ESO shines. About to die while soloing a world boss and then some stranger comes up and knocks it away from you or pops a heal on you. This is something I do not want to lose. When the population is lower, these moments do shine.

The problem is less about botting/ camping. If ZOS would just cap the number of people who could be in a phase together (say 3 or 4 per dungeon phase), a lot of these problems would go away. There is far less immersion lost if there are only two other people exploring the dungeon with you. And you can still have moments where a stranger saves your life, you get to talking, and end up grouping to take on other content. If the population per phase had been reduced to begin with, this system would have done a lot better at convincing some solo players of the advantages of playing multiplayer.

Baraz

Though I would be radical if I was the game-designer or the conceptual team, I voted No (they are not the same).

When I farm gold in public dungeons, real players really do not feel the same: they can be helpful, interactive, and try to let others get their share.
__

Ps : reporting non-bots is wrong and repeated false reports should be punishable also. Players who camp are doing what the game created as gameplay: they are not doing anything akin to cheating. There is a moral difference between using automated scripts and actually playing.

Anyhow, yes, some players who camp are *** and I would make the game so many exploits are limited (randomize resource nodes, chests, timer on character creation/deletion, etc.).

ZIKE

SeñorCinco wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

So you want a single player game?

Really? In defense of your having to camp a boss fight, you come to the plate with that?

I am compelled to ask... So, you support bots camping a boss?

Really? This is your best offense to someone pointing out the obvious? This game has plenty of solo content players can enjoy, now they want to convert these public dungeons into solo instances too?

SeñorCinco

ZIKE wrote: »

Really? This is your best offense to someone pointing out the obvious? This game has plenty of solo content players can enjoy, now they want to convert these public dungeons into solo instances too?

Not at all. You can try to put this on a SP vs MMO aspect but that's just spin. I, in no way, even remotely suggested anything close.

Instancing an area to the group is hardly trying to convert it into a SP game. I admit to being a TES first and an MMO player second. That is the exact pitch that was given by the developers. Still, the argument is not that I want to solo everything.