LGBT Quests

Singular · May 2014

luizterra23 wrote: »

Just to me reminded that in ancient greece homosexuliaty was not only tolerated, but incentivated! Women were seen as an incomplete being, and even philosophers were supporting the idea that true love could happen only between men. Apprenticeship was supported by homosexuality, implying that the knowledge could be only effectively transfered through the master's ***.

In native american society, homosexual men are seen to have stronger spiritual communion, so they are usually taking roles of utterly importance in their tribes such as shamans and even chieftains.

Nice post. May I just nitpick? Sorry.

It's probably incorrect to label other culture's versions of same sex sexual behavior (SSSB)as "homosexual." That's the Western understanding of SSSB - it's full of Western ways of viewing sex, gender, sexual behavior, ways of meaning, and so on, that are simply not found in other cultures.

Native American groups didn't have a sexual identity category of "the homosexual" but the "two-spirit people," which was sort of a third (and sometimes fourth) gender category. In brief, if you were iof the male sex, but wore woman's clothing and took the woman's role, you were not a "man" but a "two-spirit" individual. They carried out the woman's role but had additional spiritual powers associated with them. Men could marry either women or two spirit individuals - but not other men.

So gender defined how individuals acted within (some) Native cultures - gender was loosely based on sex yet culturally constructed. Our culture has a binary view of both sex, gender and sexuality, and has difficulties with those in the margins. Native cultures did not have our difficulties because of their different ways of understanding sex, gender, sexual behavior and sexual identity.

Singular · May 2014

Ahnjil wrote: »

This amount of gay marriages a thousand years before the other games is a little lore breaking. About Tamriel being a fantasy world: This is not about what there is, but what is accepted. If there had been magic in real life and in common use, it would have been accepted. But it's a primitive world, like ours was and the people are like our people were and are, with same sins and same virtues.

In real world, gays were rarely accepted. But in ESO, they are accepted everywhere. That amount of gay acceptance is just not realistic in a world full of intolerance like Tamriel is. As for player marriages - let players do what they want. Forbidding them would also be seen as taking part in the gay quarrel.

Well, you're totally incorrect. Same sex sexual behavior is differentially "accepted" depending on the culture - and cultures are dynamic, and so vary over time.

You are presenting a subjective, ethnocentric version of reality that simply doesn't match history.

In fact, Ford and Beach published a cross cultural study in 1951 showing that 2/3rds of all cultures on the planet accepted same sex sexual behavior as normal and only 1/3rd were hostile to it.

Basically, if your views represent your culture, then your culture is in the minority for how it treats homosexuality.

In other words, meeting a same sex couple ingame may be lore breaking to you, but that's only because of your personal, ahistorical and culturally biased viewpoint.

Allyah · May 2014

Singular wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

This amount of gay marriages a thousand years before the other games is a little lore breaking. About Tamriel being a fantasy world: This is not about what there is, but what is accepted. If there had been magic in real life and in common use, it would have been accepted. But it's a primitive world, like ours was and the people are like our people were and are, with same sins and same virtues.

In real world, gays were rarely accepted. But in ESO, they are accepted everywhere. That amount of gay acceptance is just not realistic in a world full of intolerance like Tamriel is. As for player marriages - let players do what they want. Forbidding them would also be seen as taking part in the gay quarrel.

Well, you're totally incorrect. Same sex sexual behavior is differentially "accepted" depending on the culture - and cultures are dynamic, and so vary over time.

You are presenting a subjective, ethnocentric version of reality that simply doesn't match history.

In fact, Ford and Beach published a cross cultural study in 1951 showing that 2/3rds of all cultures on the planet accepted same sex sexual behavior as normal and only 1/3rd were hostile to it.

Basically, if your views represent your culture, then your culture is in the minority for how it treats homosexuality.

In other words, meeting a same sex couple ingame may be lore breaking to you, but that's only because of your personal, ahistorical and culturally biased viewpoint.

I agree with your words but I just don't know if it proves that what Ahnjil said is incorrect. Considering the other types of intolerance and generalizations that Tamriel shares with our world, I find it difficult to believe that someone wouldn't come across any group of people that did not accept same sex sexual behavior as normal. 1/3 of our world cultures are still a lot of cultures. If that number was applied to Tamriel, the game would be saturated with intolerance for same sex sexual behavior.

Realistically, it's a game and they can choose to put whatever types of intolerance they feel like in the game and leave out the others. But that doesn't change that it's a little weird to not see it with all the other parallels of intolerance that we see between the game and our world.

Would this only be lore-breaking to some? Yes. But, I can easily see why someone would make a point that it is weird to not come across in all of Tamriel when you come across so many other forms of intolerance.

Rosveen · May 2014

yodased wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Actually, I've seen more lesbians than gays.

Isn't that the same thing??

Probably. I tend to make this mistake because in my language these two words aren't interchangeable, 'gej' applies only to men.

Nathair · May 2014

Allyah wrote: »

Considering the other types of intolerance and generalizations that Tamriel shares with our world, I find it difficult to believe that someone wouldn't come across any group of people that did not accept same sex sexual behavior as normal. 1/3 of our world cultures are still a lot of cultures. If that number was applied to Tamriel, the game would be saturated with intolerance for same sex sexual behavior.

Tamriel intolerant? Compared to what, exactly? There are actual races in Tamriel as opposed to the ignorant nonsense about skin pigmentation etc. that is called "race" in our real lives. Yet, in Tamriel, these races live together cheek by jowl with very little racially (as opposed to politically) motivated friction. When I bump into a female Orc carpenter working in the heart of an Elven tree city that is not intolerance, it is the exact opposite.

Sure, there are some racist or quasi-racist groups like the Stormcloaks or latter day Thalmor to be found but they are notable specifically as exceptions to the general tolerance. And, it has to be pointed out, the Stormcloaks and Thalmor are complete pikers as far as real racism and intolerance goes. Our actual history is a constant litany of genocides and pogroms going back to, at least, the First Punic War and far, far earlier if you agree with Diamond's theory of Neanderthal genocide. Real intolerance is Darfur, Rwanda or America at the turn of the 19th century. You don't see Stormcloak merchants selling picture postcards of their latest Dunmer lynching.

Most significantly, as I see it, in Tamriel men and women are equally likely to be in any profession or position, equality that is absolutely unheard of in reality. It is not the appropriate forum to delve deeply into it but a huge element of homophobia, especially institutional homophobia, has always been over gender "appropriate" roles and behaviour. In Tamriel that would be rather ridiculous.

I continue to believe that any difficulty accepting tolerance in the game is most likely merely a reflection of your own immersion in "local" intolerance out of the game.

Allyah · May 2014

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Considering the other types of intolerance and generalizations that Tamriel shares with our world, I find it difficult to believe that someone wouldn't come across any group of people that did not accept same sex sexual behavior as normal. 1/3 of our world cultures are still a lot of cultures. If that number was applied to Tamriel, the game would be saturated with intolerance for same sex sexual behavior.

Tamriel intolerant? Compared to what, exactly? There are actual races in Tamriel as opposed to the ignorant nonsense about skin pigmentation etc. that is called "race" in our real lives. Yet, in Tamriel, these races live together cheek by jowl with very little racially (as opposed to politically) motivated friction.

You seem to be arguing that I'm saying that Tamriel and our world are the same in their intolerance. I didn't. I mentioned them being similar. I didn't mention a direct comparison because there is no way to compare them that way because of their very natures. One is completely made up while the other is a reality.

Nathair wrote: »

When I bump into a female Orc carpenter working in the heart of an Elven tree city that is not intolerance, it is the exact opposite.
Sure, there are some racist or quasi-racist groups like the Stormcloaks or latter day Thalmor to be found but they are notable specifically as exceptions to the general tolerance. And, it has to be pointed out, the Stormcloaks and Thalmor are complete pikers as far as real racism and intolerance goes. Our actual history is a constant litany of genocides and pogroms going back to, at least, the First Punic War and far, far earlier if you agree with Diamond's theory of Neanderthal genocide. Real intolerance is Darfur, Rwanda or America at the turn of the 19th century. You don't see Stormcloak merchants selling picture postcards of their latest Dunmer lynching.

You don't have to react to be intolerant. It is a state of being.
Intolerant: Not tolerant of views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own.
There is plenty of this in Tamriel.

Nathair wrote: »

Most significantly, as I see it, in Tamriel men and women are equally likely to be in any profession or position, equality that is absolutely unheard of in reality. It is not the appropriate forum to delve deeply into it but a huge element of homophobia, especially institutional homophobia, has always been over gender "appropriate" roles and behaviour. In Tamriel that would be rather ridiculous.

Tamriel men and women seem to be no more advanced in gender equality than we are in this world. At least some men and women in Tamriel seem to have the same idea of gender appropriateness that we have in the real world. That will not make your point for you.

Nathair wrote: »

I continue to believe that any difficulty accepting tolerance in the game is most likely merely a reflection of your someone's own immersion in "local" intolerance out of the game.

I don't believe anything I said contradicted that point. In fact, I agree that having difficulty accepting it would be a reflection of someone's own out of game immersion in intolerance. However, there are forms of intolerance in game. And that intolerance was created by people of the real world. Which just brings me back to my main point:

Allyah wrote: »

Realistically, it's a game and they can choose to put whatever types of intolerance they feel like in the game and leave out the others. But that doesn't change that it's a little weird to not see it with all the other parallels of intolerance that we see between the game and our world.

Would this only be lore-breaking to some? Yes. But, I can easily see why someone would make a point that it is weird to not come across in all of Tamriel when you come across so many other forms of intolerance.

Nathair · May 2014

Allyah wrote: »

You seem to be arguing that I'm saying that Tamriel and our world are the same in their intolerance. I didn't. I mentioned them being similar.

Yet similar they are not. Tamriel is far, far more diverse and also significantly more tolerant than the real world. Perhaps the experience of actual diversity makes such trivialities as who marries whom seem all the more trivial.

Allyah wrote: »

You don't have to react to be intolerant. It is a state of being.
Intolerant: Not tolerant of views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own.

Well, if it makes you feel better you are perfectly free to tell yourself that lots of folks in Tamriel are secretly troubled by Hartmin & Mirilir. However that is not what you took to the forums to discuss.

Allyah wrote: »

Tamriel men and women seem to be no more advanced in gender equality than we are in this world.

I will assume that's ignorance speaking. Even in the most egalitarian countries in the world (Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden), radical outliers though they are, cannot boast actual equality of the kind seen throughout Tamriel.

Allyah wrote: »

At least some men and women in Tamriel seem to have the same idea of gender appropriateness that we have in the real world.

We? I seriously doubt that "we", however you want to define that, share an opinion on "gender appropriateness". I would, however, appreciate your providing some examples of these men and women of Tamriel who hold this "same idea".

Allyah wrote: »

But that doesn't change that it's a little weird to not see it with all the other parallels of intolerance that we see between the game and our world.

As I pointed out, these "parallels" are not actually parallel. Tamriel is enormously more tolerant on all fronts. It would be homophobic intolerance that was "weird" and not in keeping with the Tamriel norm.

Jeremy · May 2014

Laura wrote: »

There are lesbian quest lines. Plenty of them in ebonheart I can confirm.

I don't really think this needed to be a thread. I thought the flow of the LGBT quests was natural and really didn't need to be called out. Its difficult for it to feel like the norm if we keep doing things like this.

Before someone says I'm trolling my son is gay and as he would put it "it would be cool if people would just accept it as normal instead of putting the spotlight on me in the name of acceptance"

Please close this thread.

Good post but I think it misses the fact that putting a spotlight on something so everyone can see it and get used to it is part of normalizing an issue.

So while I agree with your son that it would be cool if people would just accept the harmless differences between us as normal - sadly life doesn't work like that and cultural biases have to be overcome by putting an extra emphasis on them.

Singular · May 2014

Allyah wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

This amount of gay marriages a thousand years before the other games is a little lore breaking. About Tamriel being a fantasy world: This is not about what there is, but what is accepted. If there had been magic in real life and in common use, it would have been accepted. But it's a primitive world, like ours was and the people are like our people were and are, with same sins and same virtues.

In real world, gays were rarely accepted. But in ESO, they are accepted everywhere. That amount of gay acceptance is just not realistic in a world full of intolerance like Tamriel is. As for player marriages - let players do what they want. Forbidding them would also be seen as taking part in the gay quarrel.

Well, you're totally incorrect. Same sex sexual behavior is differentially "accepted" depending on the culture - and cultures are dynamic, and so vary over time.

You are presenting a subjective, ethnocentric version of reality that simply doesn't match history.

In fact, Ford and Beach published a cross cultural study in 1951 showing that 2/3rds of all cultures on the planet accepted same sex sexual behavior as normal and only 1/3rd were hostile to it.

Basically, if your views represent your culture, then your culture is in the minority for how it treats homosexuality.

In other words, meeting a same sex couple ingame may be lore breaking to you, but that's only because of your personal, ahistorical and culturally biased viewpoint.

I agree with your words but I just don't know if it proves that what Ahnjil said is incorrect. Considering the other types of intolerance and generalizations that Tamriel shares with our world, I find it difficult to believe that someone wouldn't come across any group of people that did not accept same sex sexual behavior as normal. 1/3 of our world cultures are still a lot of cultures. If that number was applied to Tamriel, the game would be saturated with intolerance for same sex sexual behavior.

They were talking in absolutes. Clearly, that's incorrect with regards to that which is culturally constructed.

It's like saying "hey, reality, my religion is the one, true religion but when I play in ESO there's lots of religions - I find that immersion breaking."

Realistically, it's a game and they can choose to put whatever types of intolerance they feel like in the game and leave out the others. But that doesn't change that it's a little weird to not see it with all the other parallels of intolerance that we see between the game and our world.

There are parallels of intolerance - look at all the racial issues in the game.

Would this only be lore-breaking to some? Yes. But, I can easily see why someone would make a point that it is weird to not come across in all of Tamriel when you come across so many other forms of intolerance.

Sure. We all live in subjective realities, so experiencing a different one through an MMO can be jarring.

Uhm, I imagine that ESO is avoiding portraying intolerance against sexuality to avoid seeming to promote such intolerance. It's a game, it's fiction, and in the telling of stories they should be allowed to engage in whatever themes they deem necessary but I think because it's a game and not, say, a movie, the critical response would be too harsh for them.

Probably they could do a "balanced" approach by having some parts of the world pro-something and other parts anti-something, but they'd have to be so careful about it, given that all kinds of watch groups exist to patrol intolerance. It would be like having an anti-semetic bias in some characters and not having those characters be the bad guys - Jewish groups would be up in arms.

Real life is nuanced, but just how much nuance do we want in a fantasy game?

Allyah · May 2014

@Nathair‌

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

You seem to be arguing that I'm saying that Tamriel and our world are the same in their intolerance. I didn't. I mentioned them being similar.

Yet similar they are not. Tamriel is far, far more diverse and also significantly more tolerant than the real world. Perhaps the experience of actual diversity makes such trivialities as who marries whom seem all the more trivial.

Similar: resembling without being identical.
They are similar. Most fantasy holds similarities to what we see in our world because that is the only thing most people can imagine.

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

You don't have to react to be intolerant. It is a state of being.
Intolerant: Not tolerant of views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own.

Well, if it makes you feel better you are perfectly free to tell yourself that lots of folks in Tamriel are secretly troubled by Hartmin & Mirilir. However that is not what you took to the forums to discuss.

From your response, you seemed to be under the impression that intolerance only manifested itself through blatant action. I simply corrected this (assumption? mistaken argument? bad example?)

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Tamriel men and women seem to be no more advanced in gender equality than we are in this world.

I will assume that's ignorance speaking. Even in the most egalitarian countries in the world (Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden), radical outliers though they are, cannot boast actual equality of the kind seen throughout Tamriel.

Assume all you'd like. No one has ever claimed making assumptions isn't an ignorant action.

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

At least some men and women in Tamriel seem to have the same idea of gender appropriateness that we have in the real world.

We? I seriously doubt that "we", however you want to define that, share an opinion on "gender appropriateness". I would, however, appreciate your providing some examples of these men and women of Tamriel who hold this "same idea".

You do live on planet Earth, correct? I included you as an inhabitant in the world, not as someone with the same opinions that I had. I was speaking in generalities because neither one of us has any clue of the others background and because the parallels to the game and this world are only in the context of generalities.

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

But that doesn't change that it's a little weird to not see it with all the other parallels of intolerance that we see between the game and our world.

As I pointed out, these "parallels" are not actually parallel. Tamriel is enormously more tolerant on all fronts. It would be homophobic intolerance that was "weird" and not in keeping with the Tamriel norm.

Your free to keep that opinion. I simply stated mine and gave my observations about it.

Allyah · May 2014

@Singular

Singular wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Realistically, it's a game and they can choose to put whatever types of intolerance they feel like in the game and leave out the others. But that doesn't change that it's a little weird to not see it with all the other parallels of intolerance that we see between the game and our world.

There are parallels of intolerance - look at all the racial issues in the game.

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me on this or not but my quote mentions what you said. If you were agreeing, my apologies.

Singular wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Would this only be lore-breaking to some? Yes. But, I can easily see why someone would make a point that it is weird to not come across in all of Tamriel when you come across so many other forms of intolerance.

Sure. We all live in subjective realities, so experiencing a different one through an MMO can be jarring.

Uhm, I imagine that ESO is avoiding portraying intolerance against sexuality to avoid seeming to promote such intolerance. It's a game, it's fiction, and in the telling of stories they should be allowed to engage in whatever themes they deem necessary but I think because it's a game and not, say, a movie, the critical response would be too harsh for them.

Probably they could do a "balanced" approach by having some parts of the world pro-something and other parts anti-something, but they'd have to be so careful about it, given that all kinds of watch groups exist to patrol intolerance. It would be like having an anti-semetic bias in some characters and not having those characters be the bad guys - Jewish groups would be up in arms.

Real life is nuanced, but just how much nuance do we want in a fantasy game?

I really don't know if it was a conscious choice or not but if it was, I definitely agree with you mentioned as a possible reason for why they chose not to include intolerance towards same-sex couples.

randomriffyrocksprerb18_ESO · May 2014

I've never come across the T's though

Ahnjil · May 2014

Singular wrote:

in fact, Ford and Beach published a cross cultural study in 1951 showing that 2/3rds of all cultures on the planet accepted same sex sexual behavior as normal and only 1/3rd were hostile to it.

I really doubt they were right. If they were, why is it that homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies, in 2014? And even in these lands, there are lots of homophobic people.

And if the study was about 1951 in particular, the world was already much more civilised than Tamriel.

Nathair · May 2014

Allyah wrote: »

From your response, you seemed to be under the impression that intolerance only manifested itself through blatant action.

Without some sort of overt action how else would it be manifested? Telepathy?

Allyah wrote: »

Assume all you'd like. No one has ever claimed making assumptions isn't an ignorant action.

Absolutely. I do not actually know if you said something so easy to refute because you are simply ignorant of the actual state of things or if you said it because you just don't particularly care about the truth and will say whatever you think might appear to justify your position. At that point I was willing to assume the first.

Nathair · May 2014

Ahnjil wrote: »

I really doubt they were right.

On what grounds? That's the thing with refuting published scientific research. "Naaah, I doubt it" isn't really enough.

Ahnjil wrote: »

If they were, why is it that homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies, in 2014?

That's not actually the case. You've forgotten Japan, China, Cambodia, Kazakhstan, Nepal, Thailand and many others.

Ahnjil wrote: »

And if the study was about 1951 in particular, the world was already much more civilised than Tamriel.

I question your math. In Tamriel it appears that acceptance of homosexual relationships up to and including recognized marriage is universal. Ford and Beach, on the other hand, found that "In 49 (64 per cent) of the 76 societies other than our own for which information is available, homosexual activities of one sort or another are considered normal and socially acceptable for certain members of the community." Even ignoring "of one sort or another" sixty four percent is quite a bit lower than one hundred percent.

Rosveen · May 2014

Ahnjil wrote: »

Singular wrote:

in fact, Ford and Beach published a cross cultural study in 1951 showing that 2/3rds of all cultures on the planet accepted same sex sexual behavior as normal and only 1/3rd were hostile to it.

I really doubt they were right. If they were, why is it that homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies, in 2014? And even in these lands, there are lots of homophobic people.

Former colonies are like 3/4 of the world.

And if you think they don't penalize same-sex relationships, you should take a better look at the map of Africa. But still, homosexuality is legal in about 60% of all countries, so it isn't really "only".

Nathair wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

I really doubt they were right.

Ahnjil wrote: »

And if the study was about 1951 in particular, the world was already much more civilised than Tamriel.

I question your math. In Tamriel it appears that acceptance of homosexual relationships up to and including recognized marriage is universal. Ford and Beach, on the other hand, found that "In 49 (64 per cent) of the 76 societies other than our own for which information is available, homosexual activities of one sort or another are considered normal and socially acceptable for certain members of the community." Even ignoring "of one sort or another" sixty four percent is quite a bit lower than one hundred percent.

I have trouble with the bolded part. Their study covered nearly 200 cultures, but the same-sex part less than half of it. I'm not sure it's enough.

But still, it doesn't come close to what we see in ESO, so...

the.dzeneralb16_ESO · May 2014

Okay there should not be this much debate about this.

If this breaks your immersion or whatever else: You're either very bigoted or you need to a bit more research on ancient civilizations.

This is a cool little addition to the game that should either: Not have an effect on anyone, or have a minor positive effect on someone

Ahnjil · May 2014

Nathair wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

I really doubt they were right.

On what grounds? That's the thing with refuting published scientific research. "Naaah, I doubt it" isn't really enough.

Ahnjil wrote: »

If they were, why is it that homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies, in 2014?

That's not actually the case. You've forgotten Japan, China, Cambodia, Kazakhstan, Nepal, Thailand and many others.

Ahnjil wrote: »

And if the study was about 1951 in particular, the world was already much more civilised than Tamriel.

I question your math. In Tamriel it appears that acceptance of homosexual relationships up to and including recognized marriage is universal. Ford and Beach, on the other hand, found that "In 49 (64 per cent) of the 76 societies other than our own for which information is available, homosexual activities of one sort or another are considered normal and socially acceptable for certain members of the community." Even ignoring "of one sort or another" sixty four percent is quite a bit lower than one hundred percent.

I did say why I doubt it.

Are you sure about Japan and China, Thailand and Kazakhstan?
Wikipedia doesn't list them.

I meant that the world in general was more civilised than Tamriel is.

Ahnjil · May 2014

Rosveen wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Singular wrote:

in fact, Ford and Beach published a cross cultural study in 1951 showing that 2/3rds of all cultures on the planet accepted same sex sexual behavior as normal and only 1/3rd were hostile to it.

I really doubt they were right. If they were, why is it that homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies, in 2014? And even in these lands, there are lots of homophobic people.

Former colonies are like 3/4 of the world. And if you think they don't penalize same-sex relationships, you should take a better look at the map of Africa. But still, homosexuality is legal in about 60% of all countries, so it isn't really "only".

Nathair wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

I really doubt they were right.

Ahnjil wrote: »

And if the study was about 1951 in particular, the world was already much more civilised than Tamriel.

I question your math. In Tamriel it appears that acceptance of homosexual relationships up to and including recognized marriage is universal. Ford and Beach, on the other hand, found that "In 49 (64 per cent) of the 76 societies other than our own for which information is available, homosexual activities of one sort or another are considered normal and socially acceptable for certain members of the community." Even ignoring "of one sort or another" sixty four percent is quite a bit lower than one hundred percent.

I have trouble with the bolded part. Their study covered nearly 200 cultures, but the same-sex part less than half of it. I'm not sure it's enough.

But still, it doesn't come close to what we see in ESO, so...

I know, Africa is terrible when it comes to gay tolerance.
But I mostly meant the former colonies that are nowadays inhabited by "Europeans".

60%? Now I see the problem, I have been talking about the nations where it isn't legal to marry or have an official relationship, while you have talked about the nations where it is illegal to have a relationship at all. Correct?

Nathair · May 2014

Ahnjil wrote: »

Are you sure about Japan and China, Thailand and Kazakhstan?
Wikipedia doesn't list them.

I am and it does.

Ahnjil wrote: »

I meant that the world in general was more civilised than Tamriel is.

I guess that depends what you mean by "civilised".

Ahnjil wrote: »

I have been talking about the nations where it isn't legal to marry or have an official relationship, while you have talked about the nations where it is illegal to have a relationship at all.

You said "homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies".

Rosveen · May 2014

Ahnjil wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Singular wrote:

in fact, Ford and Beach published a cross cultural study in 1951 showing that 2/3rds of all cultures on the planet accepted same sex sexual behavior as normal and only 1/3rd were hostile to it.

I really doubt they were right. If they were, why is it that homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies, in 2014? And even in these lands, there are lots of homophobic people.

Former colonies are like 3/4 of the world. And if you think they don't penalize same-sex relationships, you should take a better look at the map of Africa. But still, homosexuality is legal in about 60% of all countries, so it isn't really "only".

Nathair wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

I really doubt they were right.

Ahnjil wrote: »

And if the study was about 1951 in particular, the world was already much more civilised than Tamriel.

I question your math. In Tamriel it appears that acceptance of homosexual relationships up to and including recognized marriage is universal. Ford and Beach, on the other hand, found that "In 49 (64 per cent) of the 76 societies other than our own for which information is available, homosexual activities of one sort or another are considered normal and socially acceptable for certain members of the community." Even ignoring "of one sort or another" sixty four percent is quite a bit lower than one hundred percent.

I have trouble with the bolded part. Their study covered nearly 200 cultures, but the same-sex part less than half of it. I'm not sure it's enough.

But still, it doesn't come close to what we see in ESO, so...

60%? Now I see the problem, I have been talking about the nations where it isn't legal to marry or have an official relationship, while you have talked about the nations where it is illegal to have a relationship at all. Correct?

I wasn't talking about state-recognized unions. They are a whole different animal.

Ahnjil · May 2014

Nathair wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

Are you sure about Japan and China, Thailand and Kazakhstan?
Wikipedia doesn't list them.

I am and it does.

Ahnjil wrote: »

I meant that the world in general was more civilised than Tamriel is.

I guess that depends what you mean by "civilised".

Ahnjil wrote: »

I have been talking about the nations where it isn't legal to marry or have an official relationship, while you have talked about the nations where it is illegal to have a relationship at all.

You said "homosexuality is legal only in Europe and former colonies".

My mistake.
By civilised I mean pacifism, human rights and tolerance. Amongst other things.

Nathair · May 2014

Ahnjil wrote: »

By civilised I mean pacifism, human rights and tolerance. Amongst other things.

Sitting at your computer in Toronto or Helsinki you might think we're doing pretty well. If you're in Bangui or some small village in South Sudan... not so much.

Ahnjil · May 2014

Nathair wrote: »

Ahnjil wrote: »

By civilised I mean pacifism, human rights and tolerance. Amongst other things.

Sitting at your computer in Toronto or Helsinki you might think we're doing pretty well. If you're in Bangui or some small village in South Sudan... not so much.

I know there's still much to do for a better world. But it is better than what it has been.
And better than Tamriel, in general.

Allyah · May 2014

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

From your response, you seemed to be under the impression that intolerance only manifested itself through blatant action.

Without some sort of overt action how else would it be manifested? Telepathy?

Blatant: done openly and unashamedly
Overt: done or shown openly; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden.
Difference in words makes a difference.

Nathair wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Assume all you'd like. No one has ever claimed making assumptions isn't an ignorant action.

Absolutely. I do not actually know if you said something so easy to refute because you are simply ignorant of the actual state of things or if you said it because you just don't particularly care about the truth and will say whatever you think might appear to justify your position. At that point I was willing to assume the first.

Oh, look. Still assuming. You're leaving out a good deal of options there, Nathair. And you have not successfully refuted anything.
Refute: prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.
Your opinion does not make my opinion on this false.

Nathair · May 2014

Allyah wrote: »

Blatant: done openly and unashamedly
Overt: done or shown openly; plainly or readily apparent, not secret or hidden.
Difference in words makes a difference.

Sure enough but since it was your word, I don't feel called upon to defend it. You said "You don't have to react to be intolerant. It is a state of being." When I pointed out the silliness of such an "argument" you just decided to move the goalposts with this hair-splitting "definition of blatant" nonsense while completely ignoring the substance of my response. Antics such as this have convinced me me that you are not arguing in good faith.

Allyah wrote: »

Oh, look. Still assuming. You're leaving out a good deal of options there, Nathair. And you have not successfully refuted anything.

I don't need to do anything to refute your claims, the World Economic Forum's Global Gender Gap Reports and the UN's Human Development Reports have already done the work for me. That's the point, really; this information is not obscure or difficult to access.

Allyah wrote: »

Refute: prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.

Seriously, stop quoting the dictionary.

Vorkk8383 · May 2014

Those of us who have played Bethesda games before know that they are allies. They always include gay people and gay relationships. They are a part of society (want to or not) and Bethesda seems to have agreed a long time ago that they would be part of their online societies as well. So personally, I'm not shocked to find them in this game as well. I do give them a kudos for their humanitarian approach but here's what I want to stress even more: the way that it's done isn't forced. Some games have gay characters but it's so out there and they make such a huge deal about the character's sexual orientation that it isn't natural. They use it to either please or appease or...and it may work with a certain crowd but I don't like my sexual orientation to be used or abused for profit. Bethesda has never done this. It seems to me that this was made very clear to Zeni as well. So Beth and Zeni, thank you for including us but not making us a selling point or some freak show. We're just a well integrated part of the game and I appreciate it a lot!

crislevin · May 2014

quite beautiful (open image on new tab for larger version)

demonlkojipub19_ESO · May 2014

I think there is too much debate about this too. There has been homosexual relationships in every ToS game so it shouldn't come as a surprise that it is in TESO.

Absinthe · May 2014

Quite the silly conversation.

Plenty of interracial relationships, plenty of male/male relationships...

What bothers me is that most of the male/male relationships occur between npc's of relatively the same race. If you are going to put this drivel in your game then lets see a Nord who plays bottom to an Argonian.

Otherwise more female/female relationships if you please.

At least that is sexy.