Crafting got nerfed, As expected I Guess!! Im gutted!

Ashigaru

SirPuppingtonVonHat wrote: »

I wouldn't despair quite yet.

ZOS's design goal with crafting and gear has never been "one way is best way;" they've always wanted things to be a mix of crafting and loot drops. The Craglorn special drops will be very good, but they will be epic/purple level gear at most, so to make them the best they can be you'll need a good crafter to upgrade them. We also don't know what special crafting stations there will be in Craglorn, so its within the realm of possibility that they will be competitive options. Paul Sage also said game systems will be updated in the State of the Game address with Craglorn.

Wait until the Craglorn test notes are made public (this will happen soon), and wait to hear what testers have to say about the area (I'll be one). Until, keep your fingers crossed.

My question is how do you let a crafter upgrade something if its bind on loot.

SexyVette07

Malediktus wrote: »

SexyVette07 wrote: »

IMO, the absolute best gear SHOULD be dropped, what would be the point of raiding if there werent rewards? Whats with casuals and thinking they deserve the best gear possible just by logging into the game?? Crafted items are still great, but if you want the best stuff, go EARN it.

I swear the casual playstyle will be the downfall of all gaming...

Yes, and even from a lore standpoint crafting the best gear does not make sense. Mere mortals are not be able to craft items of the power of deadric artifacts or similar. And if its possible its only possible with unique materials which dont just lay around in the open field for everyone to grab. Think of stuff like magic dragon hides and bones or metal ore blessed by one of the gods.
Only if crafters have to go through hard challenges like these trials to earn special crafting ingredients I am ok with them being able to craft the absolute best items in the game.

I absolutely agree with this. Im only VR1, but I do have all of woodworking and clothing maxed out, and almost maxed out blacksmithing. I AM a crafter, heavily invested in fact, and the current system sickens me. Every day, from all of my hirelings on my alts and main, they bring me the highest level crafting materials in the game (because im 9/9 in those crafts) and the upgrade materials I need to make VR10 legendary gear when ive never even stepped foot beyond the first area in the VR1 zone. Thats where my point about casuals getting the best gear in the game just by logging in came from, because its absolutely true. Log in, get materials, done. 20 minutes a day. This was the downfall of GW2, because after you had your set of exotic gear made, there was no point in playing anymore, and this game is quickly following suit.

Most people are goal oriented. You arent going to keep raiding a zone week after week, wipe after wipe, if there isnt incentive to do so. Would you work for free? Didnt think so. (this was just an example, dont blow it up to be more than it is).


To the few people who flamed my original post back on page 3, its funny to see you try to dictate how others play while telling others not to dictate how you play. Pure irony filled with the childish "I want it" attitude, with total disregard of logic. My statement was never about elitism, which is the common deflection argument. What I said was that you should have to EARN the best gear in the game. I dont know if you passed Reading Comprehension 101, but that statement in no way says that im better than you. What it DOES do is elude to the fact that trivializing content to the point where it only requires you to log in daily to get the best rewards will ultimately be the downfall of the game. See past your own childish needs and understand that your desire to have the best things right now with little to no effort is destroying MMO's. When people no longer have a reason to log in, they quit. When lots of people quit, the game dies or goes F2P. So while you tell others to not dictate how you play, your casual playstyle affects us all when the game is built too heavily around it.

On the other side of the coin, I hate the daily grind commonly found in MMO's. We can agree on that. Difference is that I believe you should earn the best stuff, even if its only 1% better, and RNG dictates whether or not you get the trait you want.

TheDarkKnight

All I hope is that I do not have to farm Craglorn to get the materials to make VR 11 and 12 items.

The reason I like ESO is that I prefer to play solo given my work load in real life. If I want to group I can. If I HAVE to group to get the materials then for me that is gated content.

Malediktus

TheDarkKnight wrote: »

All I hope is that I do not have to farm Craglorn to get the materials to make VR 11 and 12 items.

The reason I like ESO is that I prefer to play solo given my work load in real life. If I want to group I can. If I HAVE to group to get the materials then for me that is gated content.

I do hope its required to play Craglorn trials or at least buy the mats from players who play in craglorn trials
Gated content is good

Mansome

Audigy wrote: »

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

Crafted gear will NEVER be on par with the best raid gear, and should not be. To think otherwise is silly. So to the OP: is this is a game breaker for you, as you suggested, ESO is not for you. Bye.

If you would had played a real MMO and not just WOTLK+ you wouldn't speak like that.

At Vanilla the best weapon was crafted and every serious pvp players had one of those

I don't understand why this system was changed, it worked perfectly fine and it did so at all the other MMO´s before that.

That stupid system where you have to grind a dungeon or raid every week for months, just so that you can buy the item at a vendor is silly and has absolutely nothing to do with deserving. Its a mindless grind, no skill but time required.

IMO, the absolute best gear SHOULD be dropped, what would be the point of raiding if there werent rewards? Whats with casuals and thinking they deserve the best gear possible just by logging into the game?? Crafted items are still great, but if you want the best stuff, go EARN it.

I swear the casual playstyle will be the downfall of all gaming...

If you only raid to be superior towards others, then you don't understand the MMO franchise.
Its so sad that Blizzard manipulated so many gamers that they don't understand the sense of MMO´s.

Only raids need to drop good items, only premades are allowed to see content etc.

Its that Elitism and intolerant behavior that will be the death of online gaming.

People that only care about themselves, who only care about their own wealth and demand that others are not able to get loot or see the story. People who are upset about Casuals and want them to be removed.

Fact is, without Casuals games couldn't be developed. If someone thinks that his 10 bucks and those of his 10.000 friends are enough to make a game like TESO then you only prove that you know nothing about gaming.

Quoted as the Gospel. I could not agree more. Its the elitist that destroy gaming communities. I went thru that with Aion. Due to all the elitism many folks couldn't do the instances unless you were already geared with the gear that comes from those instances. Isn't the point of the dungeons is to get the gear? So basically in games like that if you ever fall behind on the gear curve you pretty much will never catch up unless they nerf content to the point where anyone can run it. Eventually I started making my own groups for that same content and refused to take anyone who was geared. I called it reverse elitism.

MrGhosty

My biggest concern/issue with current crafting mechanics is the terrible lack of customization, we only have a handful of styles to work with and those tend to get a bit samey after awhile. I want to see crafting become a true profession where those who are dedicated to it can make the best stuff and even go on quests for new styles, variations of current styles, dyes, etc.

It seems like we give up skill points that could be used to make us more powerful in battle and the reward for that is very minimal. I guess from my point of view I made the choice to embrace crafting and it is one of my favorite parts of the game, but there is nothing I can make that would make me standout against the hundreds of other crafters.

If we had questlines that only unlocked for crafters after a certain level that gave access to unique styles that couldn't be sold or traded, or gained the ability to alter sets in a unique way. One example that comes to mind is the Jerkin, we currently cannot craft that style so give us the ability to go on a quest to learn it. Crafted items should never be the ONLY way to get the very best gear but they should be equal with loot drops. Another example that leaps to mind would be the Breton heavy armor, it would be awesome to give it a sort of Knights of the nine treatment with some linen aspects over the top of metal armor again that was only acquired by dedication to your craft.

I also like the other ideas of some of these random drop traits being possibly researched but taking ages to do so. I don't want everything right now, i'm happy to work for these things but they've got to show some love to the crafters.

Maverick827

Ideally PvE content in a theme park MMO would look like this:

Pre-Raid: Crafted gear and dungeon gear are the same.

Tier 1: Bosses require dungeon or crafted gear to kill. Bosses drop better gear than dungeon/crafted and materials to craft new gear/upgrade current gear. Final boss requires full/almost full Tier 1 gear to kill.

Tier 2: Bosses require Tier 1 gear to kill. Final boss requires full/almost full Tier 2 gear to kill.

Tier 3: Bosses require Tier 2 gear to kill. Final boss requires full/almost full Tier 3 gear to kill. Tier 1 gear/materials are made available to non-raiders to keep the time it takes to get "raid-ready" short to prevent turnover from killing raiding guilds.

Or you could do something like:

Dungeon Tier 1 = Base
Raid Tier 1 = Dungeon Tier 2
Raid Tier 2 = Dungeon Tier 3
etc.

Asava

What would be nice is if crafters could upgrade your current tier items with more mats that drop from bosses.

Mansome

I think what needs to happen is that they make the gear bind on pickup but tradeable in that it can only be traded but not able to be put on. So that if a crafter upgrades it they couldn't just turn around and sell the gear. At that point it would create the relationship between crafter and raider that this game needs. Also improving gear needs to be gated by tiers so some level 1 character shouldn't be able to improve that gear.

dodgehopper_ESO

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Well, it would only make sense for Tamrielic bosses to have equal, but not superior, gear to what can be crafted. You're limited only by your access to master smiths / woodworkers / tailors, etc. You become a master, you're as good as THEIR masters.

The absolute best gear, of course, would be gifts of the Daedric Princes, but you know that'll come with a cost. They just don't GIVE things.

I have outdone the princes in tes gamesbefore. I do not buy this argument. Also, what about the ebony knight.

Sakiri

I swear to Hate, some of you people wont be happy until the only way to get gear period is crafting, and people have to kowtow to you every few days for new gear.

Good lord of Hate.

SunfireKnight86

Edited (Double post)

SunfireKnight86

@Zos_JessicaFolsom, can we have details beyond that? Is that the only expansion to crafting? Being able to create on level gear? Will the trials and dungeons drop gear that is significantly better than crafted?

It's a bad idea to make the crafters have to play large group content to get materials that they need to make gear that isn't as good as what drops in the large group content. (If that is the direction its heading) It's bad design. It was bad in WoW, and its bad now. Hell, just funneling players down one path to get top quality gear is bad design.

Essentially what this will do is ensure that only people who play in large groups get the top 20% of gear. This will force PvP players- like myself- to run raids and PvE groups in order to keep competitive with PvP since there is no PvP reward gear and crafted gear will be sub-par. PvP players aren't the same as raiders. I, and a lot of my guildmates, can't stand running the same dungeons 20 times just to get gear to run the next dungeon 20 times to get the best gear. It's boring as ***. That's the entire reason I stopped playing WoW and TOR.

If you want to make group PvE rewards unique- feel free. Give them titles, achievements, skill points, and COMPARABLE sets that they can't get otherwise. Hell, make those sets have equal stats if you want. Don't lock 90% of the player base out from top quality gear in your game where the endgame funnels you to PvP by both story and design. You'll totally alienate crafters in the process.

If you do this I- and a lot of other players- are going to be out after a few months. I can't stand gated content, and it has no place in an Elder Scrolls game. If you make a WoW clone as far as content design why would anyone jump ship from WoW for more than a month or two? TOR made the same mistake. Everyone will just end up back there because that's what they've spent the most time in. That or they'll go back to games that ARE actually open world like EVE.

You want a solution? Make a trait or set that adds PvP damage that only crafters can make, and let the raiders have slightly better PvE gear. BOOM! You keep raiders happy, you keep PvP'rs happy, and you keep crafters happy. Everyone wins.

I can hear some people say, "But we don't want to design separate gear for PvP, PvE, and Crafters." By making 12 man trials drop gear you've already done that, you just haven't put the label on it. I understand you want to keep group players happy. Remember though Zeni, raiders only account for a very small % of your population. You aren't going to retain PvP players with only a single skill line that only 1 person can have at a time. (Especially with some of the super broken PvP builds out there right now.) And you certainly won't retain solo players with large group content.

This game isn't group oriented outside of PvP. It's a bad idea to go from 95% soloable PvE in the first 19 zones to only group content in the last, and make that last zone the only way to get top quality gear. Make more dungeons- fine. Add trials- cool. Make the world bosses and anchors super hard- awesome. Don't make the whole zone unplayable to solo PvE players. (Although that is off topic)

SexyVette07

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

@Zos_JessicaFolsom, can we have details beyond that? Is that the only expansion to crafting? Being able to create on level gear? Will the trials and dungeons drop gear that is significantly better than crafted?

It's a bad idea to make the crafters have to play large group content to get materials that they need to make gear that isn't as good as what drops in the large group content. (If that is the direction its heading) It's bad design. It was bad in WoW, and its bad now. Hell, just funneling players down one path to get top quality gear is bad design.

Essentially what this will do is ensure that only people who play in large groups get the top 20% of gear. This will force PvP players- like myself- to run raids and PvE groups in order to keep competitive with PvP since there is no PvP reward gear and crafted gear will be sub-par. PvP players aren't the same as raiders. I, and a lot of my guildmates, can't stand running the same dungeons 20 times just to get gear to run the next dungeon 20 times to get the best gear. It's boring as ***. That's the entire reason I stopped playing WoW and TOR.

If you want to make group PvE rewards unique- feel free. Give them titles, achievements, skill points, and COMPARABLE sets that they can't get otherwise. Hell, make those sets have equal stats if you want. Don't lock 90% of the player base out from top quality gear in your game where the endgame funnels you to PvP by both story and design. You'll totally alienate crafters in the process.

If you do this I- and a lot of other players- are going to be out after a few months. I can't stand gated content, and it has no place in an Elder Scrolls game. If you make a WoW clone as far as content design why would anyone jump ship from WoW for more than a month or two? TOR made the same mistake. Everyone will just end up back there because that's what they've spent the most time in. That or they'll go back to games that ARE actually open world like EVE.

You want a solution? Make a trait or set that adds PvP damage that only crafters can make, and let the raiders have slightly better PvE gear. BOOM! You keep raiders happy, you keep PvP'rs happy, and you keep crafters happy. Everyone wins.

I can hear some people say, "But we don't want to design separate gear for PvP, PvE, and Crafters." By making 12 man trials drop gear you've already done that, you just haven't put the label on it. I understand you want to keep group players happy. Remember though Zeni, raiders only account for a very small % of your population. You aren't going to retain PvP players with only a single skill line that only 1 person can have at a time. (Especially with some of the super broken PvP builds out there right now.) And you certainly won't retain solo players with large group content.

This game isn't group oriented outside of PvP. It's a bad idea to go from 95% soloable PvE in the first 19 zones to only group content in the last, and make that last zone the only way to get top quality gear. Make more dungeons- fine. Add trials- cool. Make the world bosses and anchors super hard- awesome. Don't make the whole zone unplayable to solo PvE players. (Although that is off topic)

....


You realize that this is an MMO, right?? Just because most of the content is soloable, doesnt mean that this is a single player game. Craglorn, as well ass all adventure zones, are huge 24 man group raid zones.

If you want a single player game, I suggest that you go play a single player game.

SunfireKnight86

Yes, actually. Making an entire game soloable does means its a single player game if I want to play like that.

Plenty of MMOs offer months upon months of solo content. ESO blew that wad as soon as they decided to force everyone to go through all three stories to make the level cap. After one toon is maxed I've seen everything.

Besides, this game actively encourages solo play. I mean, give me a break man. Making the entire game soloable- going as far as making the main story solo only- and then making it forced group is bad design. Now, after allowing me to play solo for a month and reach cap, they've decided that in order to reach the new cap I have to play with a group as if the entire new zone was a dungeon.

They're trying to please everybody, but they're not offering depth of play for solo, pvp, or crafting with Craiglorn. (And as I've stated, most MMO players don't play in dedicated groups) If they keep it up like this they'll please nobody. PUGs are some of the worst I've ever seen in this game since you can't just faceroll everything. I don't want to deal with that *** just to get two more vet levels. I'd rather not play at all.

The gear suggestion I offer allows people who don't want to group for PvE to continue playing how they like without ruining the experience for anyone else.

Rammi

SexyVette07 wrote: »

To the few people who flamed my original post back on page 3, its funny to see you try to dictate how others play while telling others not to dictate how you play. Pure irony filled with the childish "I want it" attitude, with total disregard of logic. My statement was never about elitism, which is the common deflection argument. What I said was that you should have to EARN the best gear in the game. I dont know if you passed Reading Comprehension 101, but that statement in no way says that im better than you. What it DOES do is elude to the fact that trivializing content to the point where it only requires you to log in daily to get the best rewards will ultimately be the downfall of the game. See past your own childish needs and understand that your desire to have the best things right now with little to no effort is destroying MMO's. When people no longer have a reason to log in, they quit. When lots of people quit, the game dies or goes F2P. So while you tell others to not dictate how you play, your casual playstyle affects us all when the game is built too heavily around it.

On the other side of the coin, I hate the daily grind commonly found in MMO's. We can agree on that. Difference is that I believe you should earn the best stuff, even if its only 1% better, and RNG dictates whether or not you get the trait you want.

So many issues not enough time. I highlighted my major issue with your post.

First EARN, Your belief in what earning something is, is clearly different to mine. I have no desire to repeat the same content over and over to "Earn" the best gear. How am i earning anything by repeating the same content that i know how to beat over and over? how is that skill? how is that earning anything its plain and simply work and I have enough of that in the real world.

Im happy to put the time in to getting gear as long as its fun engaging and available in a play style that i enjoy.

As to your second point, I just don't see it. You once again are looking at it from an unfair perspective and looking at a situation where someone is verging on abusing the system. I for example have a single character and so my progression curve and time is anything but trivial. Also its really one mechanic that you are ranting about which trivializes crafting "heirlings" which could easily be fixed.

Once again your mixing two issue and they are different debates. one is fundamentally if a crafter should be able to craft the best gear. You keeping saying no because you believe it should be earned but im not sure how crafting and creating gear is not earned either?

The other argument is whether the system is hard enough and thats a separate debate which I'm inclined to agree that I would love a more involved and dynamic crafting system that depending on things like material quality and other aspects to make crafting the best gear much harder. Im not against a challenge and you keep believing that crafter seem to be against a hard system but but this is no different to easy raids that are easy to clear.

Malediktus

What could be more repetive than using a crafting addon which marks all the nodes on your map and run in circles? Just admit it you are too lazy for challenging group content.

Shimizu

Not everyone has the time or inclination to participate in repetitive raid grinding to 'gear up' in order to participate in more repetitive raid grinding which will net them more gear to then go and participate in more repetitive raid grinding.
This is a horrible system.

I'm fine with raiders being able to get equivalent to crafted gear if they choose to forgo crafting, but by the same token, crafters should be able to create, or acquire the materials to create, equivalent gear if they choose to forgo raiding.

When a game starts forcing me to do something that isn't fun, I stop playing it.

Gated content is horrible and just creates a wider gap between players based on nothing more than their amount of free time and willingness to do repetitive, boring content which is no measure of ability.

Pppaul

Didn't have time to read this whole huge/long thread, so forgive me if this has already been voiced.

So many people are advocating things that are tied to the Craglorn bosses... dropping of special materials, crafting stations after the bosses, etc. The problem with these ideas is that they continue the trend of screwing over the people who don't want to (or can't) raid.

There's a population in these games that don't have the time or possibly desire to get involved with large organized/scheduled groups. Some people want to experience the content in a more flexible manner. They should not get screwed out of the entire game experience including loot. Making boss-only quality loot turns the game into one of elitism and alienates portions of the population.

I'm sure this is polarizing and the ePeen wavers will be at odds with this stance, but I believe the game should not be divisive, but instead inclusive.

-EDIT- after reading a few more posts
Further reading is reinforcing the attitude I'm seeing that people too focused on acquisition through boss content farming. This is a fairly established standard with MMOs but it isn't the ONLY way.

Way back, there was a fantastic game called Asheron's Call. In that game you could get great loot from boss kills, but EVERYONE also had a small(miniscule) chance of receiving artifact level world-drop loot. Additionally you could get drops that in their native form were purely mediocre at best and with perseverance and good crafting you could improve them to equal or exceed some of the best drops.

Not everything needs to be tied to boss kills. A little bit of innovative thinking and we can satisfy a broader audience.

PS - in full agreement with the poster immediately above this post.

Malediktus

If you dont have the time to get it - dont get it. Legendary VR 10 gear is as good as white ~VR17 gear will be. More than enough for the casual player with little time. I dont understand why people who dont have time to play expect to have the same quality of stuff as people who play a lot / defeat the hardest challenges.

Pppaul

Malediktus wrote: »

I dont understand why people who dont have time to play expect to have the same quality of stuff as people who play a lot / defeat the hardest challenges.

That's carrying around "play time" as a badge of honor that gives you the RIGHT to have better gear than the next guy. These attitudes continue to screw over those who have lives that prevent them from investing massive amounts of time. TIME should not be the gating factor. ...and yes... time usually does equate to ability to finish end-game raid-level content.

For-the-record: I expect I WILL be able to do 12-man content and have done end-game raiding before. However, I have ALSO been that guy who didn't have the time to blow in game, and I don't think that person deserves to be screwed over.

Malediktus

Actually no it doesnt screw people with less play time over. All content is playable with terrible gear, even broken armor. Viewing top end gear as content locked away from you is just plain wrong. In this game gear is more of a tool to have an easier time beating challenging content, but its in no way required. I would argue a very skilled player/group could beat the current VR10 content with white quality lvl 1 items.

Rammi

Malediktus wrote: »

Actually no it doesnt screw people with less play time over. All content is playable with terrible gear, even broken armor. Viewing top end gear as content locked away from you is just plain wrong. In this game gear is more of a tool to have an easier time beating challenging content, but its in no way required. I would argue a very skilled player/group could beat the current VR10 content with white quality lvl 1 items.

So why have the content drop the best gear then if its not needed? No need to answer that

Looks you have your opinion and you have every right to it, I do not agree I never will. I don't think you approach fosters a good environment in an MMO and I don't think its good for the long term of the game but we have to agree to disagree I think on this one.

I said my piece at this point its in ZOS hands. They have a few months to convinces me to stay or Im off to Archage, where a lot of what I want exists. I would just prefer it in the ES world.

SunfireKnight86

For what it's worth, it was mentioned in the monthly address that crafting is on their list of improvements. I doubt that they'd add to it without making it better. I'm adopting a wait and see stance. As it stands right now I just made myself a full set of VR10 gold set gear, so I'm not really too miffed as it stands.

Kalman

Crafting needs a little bit of change. The set bonuses from "hidden" crafting stations are ok but a lot of the dropped ones are better. It needs to be made to when you vist a "hidden" crafting station and access the crafting stations there you learn how to make those set items. Then you can craft the set items you learn from any crafting station, not just that one.

As Zarec suggested before, if you have an entire set of dropped gear you should be able to "research" that set. Then after research completes you will be able to craft for that set. They could make it another section,like the traits section, where you can select a bonus from sets bonuses you know. You just wouldn't need a special gem like traits to craft. Or if they wanted/need it to take an item make it take a soul gem, god knows they need more uses for these.

Soloeus

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

When Craglorn launches, we're keeping crafters in mind; your crafts will not become obsolete. We are expanding the crafting system with Craglorn so that you will be able to create Veteran Rank 11 and 12 gear.

This is good.

mechman29_ESO

Cats525 wrote: »

NukaCola wrote: »

This is where you put your best crafted gear on and test it out. Or would you just craft awesome gear and go farm more materials with it.

This is how MMO's work. Im sure they will have crafting related rewards in there too. If not in that zone then in future zones.

No this is just how most MMO's work. Back in SWG for example group content was only good to provide materials and shematics or the necessary location to craft something. No matter whether it was weapons, armor, buff-items... apart from materials and shematics, if it wasn't player-crafted, it wasn't worth using.

I miss SWG. Before the "combat update" that is. LOVED the crafting system. Player housing sucked, but loved the game and crafting was awesome and fun.

Rammi

Im amazed that not even SOE themselves have recreated a similar crafting system to SWG. Easily the best I have played.

Kingslayer

My point is this, I been going through the set bonuses of crafted gear and i have to say they suck. 5% chance to negate cost of spell 3 piece bonus?. Pointless!

Slantasiam

I would propose that the boss drops nothing but in his room there is a crafting station and as luck would have it enough rare crafting supplys to craft 1 piece of their choice for each person that way if you want a set you can work for it.