Dont you DARE think of rolling an alt for pvp at this point.

Sarah_Lynn

My question is, why should someone who just made their character five minutes ago be as powerful as a veteran rank 10 player who WORKED to be good? Honestly it isn't really all that fair. If you're complaining because veterans are more powerful, that's cause we took the effort to actually level our characters. This isn't a first person shooter where you can just jump into a game and be good, just level, it's really not that hard. At all. Also, the strength gap is not that big, I've seen level 10 players take on veterans, it just takes more effort. If you can't fight a veteran, either level up your character or except that maybe you're just not as good as you thought. If you're so eager to PvP and you hate PvE THAT much, just LEARN how to fight well, then maybe veterans won't kick your ass.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Cydone wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

The problem I see is that at lvl10 a person is able to go into cyrodil and do some PvP, but there is no level separation going on in the campaigns. It doesn't have to be an alt, it can be a brand new player who reached lvl10 on his first char and wants to do pvp, but what he will find is a bunch of people who can't be killed. This could be 10 months into the games launch, and by then it would be even more suicidal to try to go into Cyrodil.

Tho, cyrodil is not meant to be a solo place, so the best option would to find some people to run with. Still tho, he will be of little use to the pvp group when he has much less skills available to him compared to those who started the game way before, and will still be easily killed if even 1 VR ranked person goes after him. It really isn't new player friendly no matter how you look at it.

Simply making campaigns level based wont really do much good either, because then that new player probably won't have but a handful of people to fight against, and it won't really feel like an all-out war.

Its really hard to fix without them adding the PvP skills and armor that they really don't want to add, so people just have to deal with it and make that push to Veteran ranks and more skill points before bothering with cyrodil

I've seen lvl 10 players kill vet players. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Sorry, but those who have put in the time to level their characters shouldn't be punished for having the time to do so. Asking for the lower level ppl to be bolstered to the point of the vet rank ppl is doing exactly that. People who are vet ranked have put the time into the game and their characters in order to get there, if bolster was to give a lowbie that same power, it would render the vet players time null, thus punishing him and making his/her investment into the game and their characters meaningless. Sorry, that's neither fair nor balanced.

I don't remember writing anything to suggest that low level players be bolstered. I do remember saying that they need to deal with it and level up. But youda known that if you read the whole thing.

Cydone

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

The problem I see is that at lvl10 a person is able to go into cyrodil and do some PvP, but there is no level separation going on in the campaigns. It doesn't have to be an alt, it can be a brand new player who reached lvl10 on his first char and wants to do pvp, but what he will find is a bunch of people who can't be killed. This could be 10 months into the games launch, and by then it would be even more suicidal to try to go into Cyrodil.

Tho, cyrodil is not meant to be a solo place, so the best option would to find some people to run with. Still tho, he will be of little use to the pvp group when he has much less skills available to him compared to those who started the game way before, and will still be easily killed if even 1 VR ranked person goes after him. It really isn't new player friendly no matter how you look at it.

Simply making campaigns level based wont really do much good either, because then that new player probably won't have but a handful of people to fight against, and it won't really feel like an all-out war.

Its really hard to fix without them adding the PvP skills and armor that they really don't want to add, so people just have to deal with it and make that push to Veteran ranks and more skill points before bothering with cyrodil

I've seen lvl 10 players kill vet players. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Sorry, but those who have put in the time to level their characters shouldn't be punished for having the time to do so. Asking for the lower level ppl to be bolstered to the point of the vet rank ppl is doing exactly that. People who are vet ranked have put the time into the game and their characters in order to get there, if bolster was to give a lowbie that same power, it would render the vet players time null, thus punishing him and making his/her investment into the game and their characters meaningless. Sorry, that's neither fair nor balanced.

I don't remember writing anything to suggest that low level players be bolstered. I do remember saying that they need to deal with it and level up. But youda known that if you read the whole thing.

I did read the entire post. You say that the lower levels aren't very useful and something needs to be changed, although it would be difficult to do. You leave your idea open, to where the only real viable option would be to bolster. Perhaps I am interpreting what you wrote in the wrong way, if I am I apologize. But, SOOO many others have made similar arguments right before asking for a better bolster so ppl that created their characters 5 hours ago can be as powerful as those who have spent actual DAYS inside the game trying to earn that power.

Again, if I misinterpreted your meaning, I do apologize.

Vlas

345zac_ESO wrote: »

Bunk wrote: »

git gud

Troll much?

IDK, I mean Vet Rank isnt really that big a deal except in skill points.

During beta I didnt know what a vet rank was, and I encountered one. I almost had him with my level 18 char had his friends not showed up.

To be honest, it was a tough fight, but still... it is possible.

Kolache

Sarah_Lynn wrote: »

My question is, why should someone who just made their character five minutes ago be as powerful as a veteran rank 10 player who WORKED to be good?

No, it wouldn't make sense for them to be as powerful. On the same note, why would it make sense for players that just created their character to be matched against players that have been working at their characters for so long?

So there's a few options, and all of them have consequences:
1. Do nothing and leave it as is. The longer the game is alive, the less of an influx of players you will have in PvP at lower levels. More and more people aren't even going to consider PvP'ing until they're veterans. However, you do get the satisfaction of destroying/hazing easy targets here and there.

2. You bracket campaigns to segregate players based on level. You don't get the joy of destroying weak targets. More people keep PvP'ing regardless of their level.

3. You increase the bolster of lower level players. You don't get the joy of destroying weak targets. More people keep PvP'ing regardless of their level.

I've seen this discussion in so many themepark MMOs. All of them end up trying to find ways to prevent veterans from blowing up noobs. It's inevitable. Even if you can't see that it's in your own best interest, developers will. They'll save you from yourselves and find ways to keep a healthy food supply for you.

Cydone

Kolache wrote: »

Sarah_Lynn wrote: »

My question is, why should someone who just made their character five minutes ago be as powerful as a veteran rank 10 player who WORKED to be good?

No, it wouldn't make sense for them to be as powerful. On the same note, why would it make sense for players that just created their character to be matched against players that have been working at their characters for so long?

So there's a few options, and all of them have consequences:
1. Do nothing and leave it as is. The longer the game is alive, the less of an influx of players you will have in PvP at lower levels. More and more people aren't even going to consider PvP'ing until they're veterans. However, you do get the satisfaction of destroying/hazing easy targets here and there.

2. You bracket campaigns to segregate players based on level. You don't get the joy of destroying weak targets. More people keep PvP'ing regardless of their level.

3. You increase the bolster of lower level players. You don't get the joy of destroying weak targets. More people keep PvP'ing regardless of their level.

I've seen this discussion in so many themepark MMOs. All of them end up trying to find ways to prevent veterans from blowing up noobs. It's inevitable. Even if you can't see that it's in your own best interest, developers will. They'll save you from yourselves and find ways to keep a healthy food supply for you.

I wouldn't mind bracketing off the non-vet ranked ppl. Have a few separate campaigns where there's only lvl 10-49 players allowed. But, also allow the vet players to join there as well. Just bolster them down to a 49.

eNumbra

At 47 with an NB, I've solo'd a V1 and Killed a V1 when he and his V1 and V2 buddy caught me looking at my map.

That's right, killed the one, made a break for it and nearly took the second V1 before those Aldmeri scum got me.

Almost had a V2 with the help of another sub veteran player today, but he managed to turn it into a sprint-off and ran me into a DK buddy of his over the ridge. Each time I've had to engaged a Veteran level player away from any groups I've at least given them a run for their money. Granted I'm wary of anyone over V5; but each time I die, I look at what happened and attempt to adjust for it, there's nothing else you can do.


Well, aside from *** and moan I guess.

Cydone

eNumbra wrote: »

At 47 with an NB, I've solo'd a V1 and Killed a V1 when he and his V1 and V2 buddy caught me looking at my map.

That's right, killed the one, made a break for it and nearly took the second V1 before those Aldmeri scum got me.

Almost had a V2 with the help of another sub veteran player today, but he managed to turn it into a sprint-off and ran me into a DK buddy of his over the ridge. Each time I've had to engaged a Veteran level player away from any groups I've at least given them a run for their money. Granted I'm wary of anyone over V5; but each time I die, I look at what happened and attempt to adjust for it, there's nothing else you can do.


Well, aside from *** and moan I guess.

That's not possible sir! According to all the whining on this forum, you have to be at least VR5 before you even think about pvping. Otherwise you are going to be crushed over and over again. It's not the ppl doing something wrong, it's the pvp mechanics that are in the game. /sarcasm off

stylernaku

Veteran ranks should have been granted special abilities with significant cool downs, banners, rank titles, and cosmetic bonuses only, and perhaps special mounts, snazzy glowing weapons all that jazz.

Base attack damage etc should not have been buffed through the roof. The power gamer PVP nuts from WoW have been all over this like women at a Pri mark 50% sale (UK joke) because of the boons.

Cydone

stylernaku wrote: »

Veteran ranks should have been granted special abilities with significant cool downs, banners, rank titles, and cosmetic bonuses only, and perhaps special mounts, snazzy glowing weapons all that jazz.

Base attack damage etc should not have been buffed through the roof. The power gamer PVP nuts from WoW have been all over this like women at a Pri mark 50% sale (UK joke) because of the boons.

Umm, base attack damage ISN'T buffed for VR players. The damage comes from attribute points, skill points spent in the best abilities and morphed, and enchantments in armor, weapons and jewelry. Something EVERYONE has access to.

skinraider

it take 2 weeks at most to get to VR 1 and once I hit VR1 I haven't lost a 1on1 fight in PVP I owned VR10 at VR1 one on one I think PVP is very balance also I been killed by 10 low lvls 10-49 by them just stunning me none stop so PVP very balance I think and if you to lazy to grind up to VR1 just quit the game now since you wont ever be any help in PVP and you will only annoy other players and the ESO staff ( I also been gaining another Vet lvl every 1-2 days since I turn VR 1 it really easy to lvl just go quest do all world bosses and Dolmens BAM you next vet lvl how easy was that )

skinraider

Also if you to lazy to lvl you should die to the person who put more time and effort into the game then you just how it is if someone play darts few times a week play someone who plays few times a year who do you think gonna win a dart game I WILL play every week end at the bars haha same thing for this game :P)

stylernaku

Cydone wrote: »

stylernaku wrote: »

Veteran ranks should have been granted special abilities with significant cool downs, banners, rank titles, and cosmetic bonuses only, and perhaps special mounts, snazzy glowing weapons all that jazz.

Base attack damage etc should not have been buffed through the roof. The power gamer PVP nuts from WoW have been all over this like women at a Pri mark 50% sale (UK joke) because of the boons.

Umm, base attack damage ISN'T buffed for VR players. The damage comes from attribute points, skill points spent in the best abilities and morphed, and enchantments in armor, weapons and jewelry. Something EVERYONE has access to.

Um urghh dribble...

Same difference. Veteran players, as there is no veteran only option, should be lowered down to lvl 50 ish equivalent in respect to balance.

Too many vets strutting about who have covered a lack in skill, when on a level playing field, with grinding the heck out of the game to get a leg up over players due to bonuses.

We all like to win in PVP, naturally no fun to get the beat down, but don't try and dress up the Vet rank for anything more than what it is, a chance for people with a ridiculous amount of game time to lord it over people with jobs etc.

You should be repaid for your... loyalty and persistence with a game certainly, but godly like abilities amongst us mere mortals is not one of them in the eyes of fair play.

Censorious

Normally I'd just say L2P. I've always levelled toons through PvP and it's always been great fun trying to get an edge on someone way above my level.
But yesterday I had a chance to see this in action.

I came across a lvl 50 (presumably that's V1 right?). He was standing, inviting an attack so I obliged. At lvl 35, I could hardly make a dent. He just stood there taking shots. It made no difference when a couple more lowbies joined in. His health dipped slightly then went back up.

Eventually, he got bored and one-shot me. The other guys ran away.

An advantage is OK but this is so far OP it's utterly pointless.


EDIT PS. I'm still in Cyrodiil - there are still plenty of lowbies to fight - but it's getting harder.

Cydone

stylernaku wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

stylernaku wrote: »

Veteran ranks should have been granted special abilities with significant cool downs, banners, rank titles, and cosmetic bonuses only, and perhaps special mounts, snazzy glowing weapons all that jazz.

Base attack damage etc should not have been buffed through the roof. The power gamer PVP nuts from WoW have been all over this like women at a Pri mark 50% sale (UK joke) because of the boons.

Umm, base attack damage ISN'T buffed for VR players. The damage comes from attribute points, skill points spent in the best abilities and morphed, and enchantments in armor, weapons and jewelry. Something EVERYONE has access to.

Um urghh dribble...

Same difference. Veteran players, as there is no veteran only option, should be lowered down to lvl 50 ish equivalent in respect to balance.

Too many vets strutting about who have covered a lack in skill, when on a level playing field, with grinding the heck out of the game to get a leg up over players due to bonuses.

We all like to win in PVP, naturally no fun to get the beat down, but don't try and dress up the Vet rank for anything more than what it is, a chance for people with a ridiculous amount of game time to lord it over people with jobs etc.

You should be repaid for your... loyalty and persistence with a game certainly, but godly like abilities amongst us mere mortals is not one of them in the eyes of fair play.

You're $15 a mo gives you access and ONLY access to the game. Your time spent in the game is what garners rewards. Being slightly more powerful than the lower level ppl is one of those rewards. You entitlement ppl act as if this is something that can't be obtained by ANYONE, save for the ppl that are already there. If you don't have the time to invest in the game, then you shouldn't be rewarded in the same fashion as those that can. Any MMO, and I do mean ANY, will always reward the ppl that have the most time to invest into it. Games that give new players or players that don't want to invest the same time into the game, never succeed. Or have CRAPPY pvp. Look at TOR and WoW. They do that and their pvp is absolutely horrid!

Stop acting like hitting vet rank automatically gives you some other worldly power. It doesn't. I have, as well as MANY others, taken out vet ranked players in my 20's/30's/40's. Perhaps instead of crying here on the forums that you're not getting everything handed to you, you and ppl like you should spend some more time in the game, earning your rewards like the rest.

fredarbonab14_ESO

The age-old argument about achieving 'balanced' results in PvP and its the developer's job to do so. Get out of here and cut them a break.
The veterans worked for their advantage and are enjoying it. Good for them. Deal with it. I am personally thrilled that at level 10, I was even allowed to watch and partake in the fun, and try to contribute in less-dangerous ways (running siege engines for example).

skinraider

Also last post of mine is if you think everyone should be = no way to rise over others with hard work you are only a Commie scum to my eyes and go live in north Korea where everyone is treated = no matter what your job is and how hard you work ( better dead then red )

stylernaku

The usual drivel and crap to justify keeping your e peen advantage.

Cydone

stylernaku wrote: »

The usual drivel and crap to justify keeping your e peen advantage.

So, what I said was drivel and crap. But you, wanting something for nothing isn't?? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!

Oavind

I just read over the OP and wanted to reply, hadn't taken time to read over the entire thread:

For the OP I just think you need to spend time in Cyrodiil and learn the many methods of 1)building character for pvp and 2)when/how to engage in combat.

1-When you build the character, from the ground up, even running pve to level it you should have an outline or general idea of the pvp build. Shape each weapon, armor, racial passive, whatever to fit so that you are more survivable and have the most CC (crowd control) at your disposal. Morph abilities to enhance your stuns, disorient, self-healing, or even dps if it isn't sacrificing something similar to these abilities (survival).

2-When to engage? If you are solo get a gank team is preferred but just to to the transit lines behind the lines stealthing. Pick off unsuspecting reinforcements behind the front battle lines, or even farther back at 'choke points' crossing to enemy territory. Practice makes perfect, it really is fun with patience (guild helps a lot give it a shot!). If you want to charge the front lines, then be sure you follow orders well so that you can retreat or push when needed. Really if the battle is 'pulsing' back and forth under good command you can prevail in group scenarios (even if outnumbered/outleveled).

No one is an instant hero in Cyrodiil. A well built character, however, may start to see the benefits of his/her build sooner rather than later on the battlefield. Find synergies between passives across multiple skill lines, stick with them, and try to have your racial align with it. That's a small start.

Also (since I sort of drifted off topic with pvp guidance :P) I have killed Vet rank players with my level 35 bow Sorceror, as well as a stam-build Dunmer Nightblade at level 14. Just last night, as a matter of fact, I killed a level 24 player and then killed his Vet rank 2 friend right after him on my level 14 Dunmer. The Dunmer benefits from high stamina, powerful bow, his bow knockback skill also makes him jump backwards (forget name of morph) and he's paired it with Shadow skills to disappear. Nothing real special really, and this was all before I get my weap swap.

In short: experience > all

Thechemicals

Under-leveled and under-geared players in pvp should be thrashed and smashed as intended. The smart and skilled under-leveled players stay with the large group and look for enemy players their level via using the reticle. Also, you shouldnt be doing pvp the majority of your playtime. You have to get those skill points and that gear and that veterancy.

Do the work.

yclandb14_ESO

These arguments pop up in nearly all games which have PvP in them. You get those who want things equalized a bit so everyone can participate and you have those who like being king of the hill thrashing newbs because of their level and gear.

This game is somewhat different compared to many of the MMOs that have released PvP content, save a few that have done the large scale PvP. The issue becomes that when you make an all-level PvP zone there needs to be some equalization or that zone needs to be broken up into different level instances.

Why?

Well, what we're talking about is PvP, player vs player and what you end up with when you have the current system is PvLevel or PvGear and that's not true PvP. Some people may enjoy that and even desire that over one person playing the other persons skill-set and familiarity with their class and it's that contest of skill and familiarity that is PvP, the simple act of shooting another player isn't really true PvP.

darthbelanb14_ESO

I keep seeing people talk about all the time and effort these vets put in to leveling a character. We're two weeks away from launch and there were vet ranks less than a week after, I don't consider that putting time and effort into your character.

Cydone

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

I keep seeing people talk about all the time and effort these vets put in to leveling a character. We're two weeks away from launch and there were vet ranks less than a week after, I don't consider that putting time and effort into your character.

Obviously more time than you have put in, so why should you garner the same power/ability as those other players?? And it's not as if they are THAT powerful to being with. Unless they are like VR6 and you're a 30, you aren't and SHOULDN'T be able to kill them in a 1v1. You want equalization in pvp? Play SWTOR or WoW. The pvp is terribad, but at least your "equal" lulz.

stevenyaub16_ESO

its actually easier to kill some VRs than lower levels, because hte lower levels stack HP so their total becomes around 2500ish. where i see some glass cannon VRs with only 15-20k. You should thank zenimax for even allowing low levels to contribute, and they do. They make up the bulk of the armies, and they can be useful, if you get items with health buffs, get siege equipment. and load out some CC spells you can contribute more than most.

Its also knowing to watch flanks, stealth/ambush, and all other tactics, which do not require levels.

Sure the VRs are stronger because they have more skill points, more passives. But the non-VRs are still an important part of the war machine.

The biggest issue i think is that ressing people require grand soul gems which only VRs can acquire at ease, they should let low levels able to ress people with the gems associated with their levels. that would make things alot more pleasant and more useful.

darthbelanb14_ESO

Cydone wrote: »

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

I keep seeing people talk about all the time and effort these vets put in to leveling a character. We're two weeks away from launch and there were vet ranks less than a week after, I don't consider that putting time and effort into your character.

Obviously more time than you have put in, so why should you garner the same power/ability as those other players?? And it's not as if they are THAT powerful to being with. Unless they are like VR6 and you're a 30, you aren't and SHOULDN'T be able to kill them in a 1v1. You want equalization in pvp? Play SWTOR or WoW. The pvp is terribad, but at least your "equal" lulz.

Not sure where you read in my response where I agreed or disagreed with the OP, TBH, either way I don't care. I group up and survive at level 16, so I have no problems. Half these VR players leveled up using the repeatable kill player quest before they "fixed" it, some sacrificed personal hygiene. All of them rushed through the content, no time or effort involved.

Cydone

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

I keep seeing people talk about all the time and effort these vets put in to leveling a character. We're two weeks away from launch and there were vet ranks less than a week after, I don't consider that putting time and effort into your character.

Obviously more time than you have put in, so why should you garner the same power/ability as those other players?? And it's not as if they are THAT powerful to being with. Unless they are like VR6 and you're a 30, you aren't and SHOULDN'T be able to kill them in a 1v1. You want equalization in pvp? Play SWTOR or WoW. The pvp is terribad, but at least your "equal" lulz.

Not sure where you read in my response where I agreed or disagreed with the OP, TBH, either way I don't care. I group up and survive at level 16, so I have no problems. Half these VR players leveled up using the repeatable kill player quest before they "fixed" it, some sacrificed personal hygiene. All of them rushed through the content, no time or effort involved.

You REALLY aren't that bright are you. If you think that a repeatable mission that only gives 4k xp per, really lead to all those VR ppl, then I have some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

chris.musgrove_ESO

The problem is not that higher level guys are more powerful. Of course they are more powerful. They've been playing longer, and are probably more skilled players, plus they have all kinds of gear and skill bonuses.
The problem is the system. Low level players should not be competing against high level ones, any any thing close to a balanced system. The only thing this does is discourages the low level player. In the game no warnings are given saying that you are under 50VR10 so you better be twice as good as the average player if you hope to do anything.
Its like putting a 10 year old white belt against a pro fighter and wondering why the 10 year old doesn't want to play anymore. The moron in this situation isn't' the pro fighter or the 10 year old it is the organizer that put the 10 year old against the pro fighter in this case the ESO system.

darthbelanb14_ESO

Cydone wrote: »

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

darthbelanb14_ESO wrote: »

I keep seeing people talk about all the time and effort these vets put in to leveling a character. We're two weeks away from launch and there were vet ranks less than a week after, I don't consider that putting time and effort into your character.

Obviously more time than you have put in, so why should you garner the same power/ability as those other players?? And it's not as if they are THAT powerful to being with. Unless they are like VR6 and you're a 30, you aren't and SHOULDN'T be able to kill them in a 1v1. You want equalization in pvp? Play SWTOR or WoW. The pvp is terribad, but at least your "equal" lulz.

Not sure where you read in my response where I agreed or disagreed with the OP, TBH, either way I don't care. I group up and survive at level 16, so I have no problems. Half these VR players leveled up using the repeatable kill player quest before they "fixed" it, some sacrificed personal hygiene. All of them rushed through the content, no time or effort involved.

You REALLY aren't that bright are you. If you think that a repeatable mission that only gives 4k xp per, really lead to all those VR ppl, then I have some ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

Oh, I'm sorry, they did have to quest during the first 10 levels.

NordJitsu

So....

Whats imbalanced about lower level players losing to higher level players?