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There is no such thing as Dwarven Ore
Catdrexion
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Metalwork as far as we know is the primary method used to make almost all dwarven crafts. We cannot, however, discount more easily destructible materials such as clay, paper, and glass from outside the scope of dwarven craftsmanship, but given the tendency of dwarven design to favor the long-lasting over the fragile, we can safely assume that at the very least metal was a heavy preference. And the metal used in all so-far-discovered dwarven relics is entirely unique to their culture.
No other race has replicated whatever process was used to create dwarven metal. Although it can be easily mistaken for bronze -- and in fact many forgers of dwarven materials use bronze to create their fake replicas -- it is most definitely a distinct type of metal of its own. I have personally seen metallurgists attempt to combine several different types of steel and common and rare ores in order to imitate dwarven metal's exclusive properties, but the only method that has been successful is to melt down existing dwarven metallic scraps and start over from there.
That's from Dwarves v1, A book written in the fourth Era. So if 1,000 years pass from this game to Skyrim and they still say they have no idea how Dwarves made their metal, how is it that we are finding green rocks just lying around everywhere?
I'm a huge fan of the Elder Scrolls and its lore, and I've stuck with this game through multiple cashgrabs, bad game design and, at launch, many obvious and serious lore mistakes because they've stated multiple times that they want to make this like an Elder Scrolls game, and that they were "working closely with the lore guys from Bethesda". I was willing to write off Khajiit with Argonian names or the frivolous use of time travel as the fault of one or two quest developers who aren't really fans of the series and just nine to fiveing it to go home and play COD, but this is a gaping hole in the lore and as part of the crafting system, probably had many people overseeing the project and had some form of peer review, so someone, somewhere had to have noticed it.
And not only is Dwarven Ore in the game, the armor you make with it doesn't even look like Dwarven armor at all. Dwarven equipment has always been a gold-bronze color, all the way back to Daggerfall where you could find those mysterious golden swords in a Merchant's inventory. It was distinct, exciting and mysterious. So what does the Dwarven armor look like in The Elder Scrolls Online? It's green. Not even a good green, it is extremely dark and almost resembles puke. The only hint of any gold on it at all is the trim.
You might be wondering why this is a problem and you can probably tell that my jimmies are at maximum over-rustle, and they are and yours should be too. The Dwemer have always been a lost race, you could always go into their ruins for loot or just for the thrill of exploration, sometimes you would bring artifacts to people as a quest, but you never got more answers than you did raise more questions. What ZOS has done is taken away a major portion of the mystery for a faux "Elder Scrolls" feel and thrown it in our faces just expects us to accept it. As a fan of the Elder Scrolls who was promised that the game would stick to the lore, I am actually offended. I feel lied to and I feel cheated, I also feel that if ZOS actually cared about the lore, someone who did notice this back in development would have pointed this out.
So why don't you fix it, ZOS? I'm not a programmer, but I don't see why you cannot go into your game files wherever Dwarven Ore, weapons or armor is mentioned and just Ctrl+F and rename it "Unobtanium" or something. Other previously unknown materials like Calcinium and Galalite have already been added, one more isn't going to kill you, but leaving in an obvious lore error and laughing in the face if your fanbase might.
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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M'aiq told me that the Psijic Order made all the Dwarven Ore disappear 42 years from now and erased every trace of it's current existence from Tamriel.Catdrexion wrote: »From Dwarves v1, A book written in the fourth Era. So if 1,000 years pass from this game to Skyrim and they still say they have no idea how Dwarves made their metal, how is it that we are finding green rocks just lying around everywhere?
But then again, M'aiq shouldn't be in ESO either ...
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Opioid✭✭✭Because ESO isn't every other Elder Scrolls single player game. They had to use some creative license to make it fit into an MMO. Having "Dwarven Ore" as a type of mineable node in the progression of zones makes more sense than having every other ore type be mined from a node but having Dwarven Ingots only accessible by picking up and melting down junk from Dwemer ruins.
Also, they chose to have the styles of armor be linked to the style material used, not to the type of ore used. Again, some of the creative license that made more sense in an MMO setting than having styles directly linked to ore type. If styles were tied to ore type then pretty much EVERYONE of the same level would be running around in identical gear. At least with the way they implemented it in ESO, people can craft themselves a unique look or even look unique based on using a mis-matched set of drops and quest rewards.
You should calm your jimmies and realize that it just isn't feasible to make everything in ESO match exactly to the crafting/resource systems in the single player games.
In my opinion, they did a pretty decent job with forming the Elder Scrolls universe into an MMO environment.
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Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Terrible, yes.
There are many things wrong with the lore in this game. Like, a whole bunch of things. I mean, a Bosmer in Grahtwood says that the Green Pact is an oath made by the Bosmer to Hircine, even.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.6 -
liquid_wolf✭✭✭✭I wonder if they talked about making dwarven metal only come from dwarven artifacts... like drops from kills.
No clue who let this through... I hope there is some kind of explanation or correction to this at some point.1 -
Jirki88✭✭✭I sympathize with the OP. To be fair, it would've been as simple as replacing Dwarven Ore with something else more lore-friendly, and then have Dwemer crafting a side-thing, where you would actually have to collect Dwemer junk in the Dwemer ruins to melt into ingots to use. It's always annoying when there's inconsistencies like this, and the fact that it's an MMO isn't really an excuse. It wouldn't been difficult to do a work-around.Veritas et aequitas, et usque ad mortem.2 -
Wormfood✭A simple solution would have been finding Dwemer relics on the surface instead of ore, but still smelt it the same way.9
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This indeed was somefind that buged me lore wise but you first have to find a way for a solution to fit the MMOA simple solution would have been finding Dwemer relics on the surface instead of ore, but still smelt it the same way.
And I think this quote could be the solution. Rather than having 'dwarven ore' replace every resource with 'dwarven cogs', 'dwarven solid metal' or any of the pieces from Skyrim that you melted to get dwarven ingots. This replacing would ammount to just renaming the resource and changing the model from an ore to a dwarven item (models which already exist ingame)2 -
Naguur86✭✭✭A simple solution would have been finding Dwemer relics on the surface instead of ore, but still smelt it the same way.
This would be the best solution. I haven't progressed that far but I know that dwarven metal is the 4th out of 10 metal available. The problem I see with this is that you would only find Dwemer relics in those ruins or, on rare occasions, in some chest or anything. This means that there are specific places where this metal is to be found and this means that people farming these relics are concentrated on some spots in the game.
Another issue would be that you are able to visit Dwemer ruins pretty early in the game. That means that you have access to dwemer metal earlier than intended. Not that much of an issue because you can't use it anyway at this point but I think these are some of the reasons why they didn't add it that way.
A Solution would be to make it very rare but still available in any region and at any level. This would mean that someone who has progressed to this type of metal is able to search everywhere in Tamriel for it what would spread people farming it more over the world.
I totally agree that there should be no "Dwarven metal" anywhere in an TES game. In the first step, they should just rename it and maybe add actual Dwemer relics as an even higher tier later in the crafting progress.
I just hope that there will never be the Dwemer pronounced as a new race in any patch who are mysteriously reappearing. What I would like are dragons (if there aren't some already, haven't progressed very far as I said) and the ability to gather bone from dragons as an additional high tier material along with Dwemer relics. (Although this would collide with the style-material bone
) 0 -
Catdrexion✭✭✭
M'aiq told me that the Psijic Order made all the Dwarven Ore disappear 42 years from now and erased every trace of it's current existence from Tamriel.Catdrexion wrote: »From Dwarves v1, A book written in the fourth Era. So if 1,000 years pass from this game to Skyrim and they still say they have no idea how Dwarves made their metal, how is it that we are finding green rocks just lying around everywhere?
But then again, M'aiq shouldn't be in ESO either ...
That is not an excuse. That is a cop out. M'aiq isn't even a source of valid lore in the first place, he's an easter egg and always has been.
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Phranq✭✭✭Your argument makes about as much sense as mine did a while back for refining "high iron" to get steel... I played in another mmo which will remain nameless where you had to pick up wood, run it through the forge to make coke, then combine that with iron to make steel... while this is a much more accurate method, it is cumbersome, and who really wants to do all those steps... So.. mining and refining ore is just a simplification, sacrificing realism and lore for playability1
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R0M2K✭✭✭✭Agree in changing the node model/name to be lore friendly.
Also, "High Iron" > Steel ??? WTF just add Coal nodes so Steel=iron+coal
OMG Zenimax1 -
MitlakSoul ShrivenI have a sticking point about crafting. Normally In a MMO I start 1 character for each craft. If there is a shared bank I use it to transfer the raw materials to the character that needs it. The character then puts it in its personal bank and uses it the next time I work on its particular craft. However, I cannot do that here since everything is a shared bank. That's ridiculous by the way, There are way too many ingredients to store in 1 account. so I paid 2200 gold and raised it to 80 and still it was not enough room. So as soon as I saved the 6800 gold required for the next up grade I got another 10 Bank slots. They are all full and its going to get worse once I level someones crafting to second tier.Y'all need to allow each character a 60 slot bank and then have a 20 slot group bank. Having all this detailed crafting by race is great but if y'all take 60 slots and divide it by 9 that's 6.67 per race for storage. Though the iron, jute and rawhide remains the same each would require different stones not to mention different classes would require different enchantments etc.. My sorcerer would require different potions then my templar or my dragon-knight.0
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R0M2K✭✭✭✭And btw, actual Dwarven node model could just be recycled to Glass node... its what it looks like.
Oh almost forgot, Daedric beeing a motiff??? WTF2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bah. I decided that ESO was not in the same timeline as Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim a long time ago and now I am over it. ESO is a standalone game with names and locations that are similar to those other games, but in general, that is where the similarity ends.
If that is not an acceptable answer, I have an idea.
Given the swarm of locusts in the 2nd Era stripping everything down the the fixtures, then taking the fixtures, how could it be possible to find any loot in Dwemer or Ayleid ruins in the 3rd Era?
Well, for Dwemer ruins, we now know. Our job in the 2nd Era is to make the Dwemer artifacts that we will find in the 3rd Era.
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I agree with other commenters, the ridiculousness of dwarven ore and crafting steel should be changed somehow."Everything you can imagine is real."
- Pablo Picasso0 -
Iago✭✭✭✭✭are you sure you're not over thinking this?That which we obtain to cheap we esteem to lightly, it is dearness only that gives everything its value.
-Thomas Pain0 -
Catdrexion✭✭✭ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »are you sure you're not over thinking this?
ZOS said they would be sticking to lore. This is just so an obvious oversight that it makes me feel like they don't actually care about the franchise or community at all and that we've been lied too. I don't see how I am over thinking anything.
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lupusrex✭✭✭Yeah, it is weird. Even if we had identified what mineral they started from, we shouldn't be able just to walk up to any forge and make Dwemer metal out of it. I think the game even states in one of the loading screen messages that the Dwemer had to use the heat of Nirn's molten core to do it. Let alone knowing the exact method by which they smelted it.
But there is a way they could right this without deviating from the node system. They could replace all the dwarven ore spots with buried dwarven metal bits/artifacts/scrap, or something like that. Then we'd be recycling their metal (as before) instead of making it from scratch.Martial Keen-Eye ~ Templar Healer/Archer ~ Daggerfall Covenant
"I ain't done nothin'."0 -
Well simplest solution would be to completely replace all instances of "dwarven metal/ore" from the game with some other metal/ore.
That still leaves steel though.Edited by TheBloodartist on 19 April 2014 22:20"Everything you can imagine is real."
- Pablo Picasso0 -
Salsadoom✭✭✭Dwarven ore is fine, it's not raw ore in the sense of normal ore but the melted remains of a dwarven construct that needed refined to separated from it's other components0
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Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm a Bosmer and make bows out of wood. Breaks the lore. Needed for balance.
Apples and oranges. Naming ore "dwarven" is not needed for balance.
Also, there are quite a few Bosmer that do not follow the Green Pact. Just saying.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It bothered me too, as did Daedric Princess in reference to Azura, but Prince when in game referred to Meridia, who is traditionally female in appearance. Has Azura even appeared in game yet? Did not see her Pact side.
Also, Molag Bal, god of schemes? Mephala is the Prince of Plots... Molag Bal's sphere was enslavement and domination of mortals, King of ***... come on...
/lore nerd off
/illustrating the Annuad and cosmology and aedra/daedra as a side project lately for a friend and this rubs me the wrong way2 -
Iago✭✭✭✭✭Catdrexion wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »are you sure you're not over thinking this?
ZOS said they would be sticking to lore. This is just so an obvious oversight that it makes me feel likeethey don't actually care about the franchise or community at all and that we've been lied too. I don't see how I am over thinking anything.
Look all i am trying to say is that this is a silly thing yo let ruin your gaming experience. I encountered an ordinator from Mournhold in Grahtwood. He said that Alm3xia sent him there but I clearly remember killing Sothasil Vivicand Almelexia When I played morrowind.
But whatever it was a fun quest anyway.That which we obtain to cheap we esteem to lightly, it is dearness only that gives everything its value.
-Thomas Pain0 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »Catdrexion wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »are you sure you're not over thinking this?
ZOS said they would be sticking to lore. This is just so an obvious oversight that it makes me feel likeethey don't actually care about the franchise or community at all and that we've been lied too. I don't see how I am over thinking anything.
Look all i am trying to say is that this is a silly thing yo let ruin your gaming experience. I encountered an ordinator from Mournhold in Grahtwood. He said that Alm3xia sent him there but I clearly remember killing Sothasil Vivicand Almelexia When I played morrowind.
But whatever it was a fun quest anyway.
This game is WAY before TES:III, so no, you didn't kill Almalexia and Vivec yet. Why would anyone kill Vivec anyway? I just let him walk away, he is one of the best characters of the entire franchise.
And you didn't kill Sotha Sil at all. Almalexia killed him after she lost her mind.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.2 -
Iago✭✭✭✭✭ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »wCatdrexion wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »are you sure you're not over thinking this?
ZOS said they would be sticking to lore. This is just so an obvious oversight that it makes me feel likeethey don't actually care about the franchise or community at all and that we've been lied too. I don't see how I am over thinking anything.
Look all i am trying to say is that this is a silly thing yo let ruin your gaming experience. I encountered an ordinator from Mournhold in Grahtwood. He said that Alm3xia sent him there but I clearly remember killing Sothasil Vivicand Almelexia When I played morrowind.
But whatever it was a fun quest anyway.
This game is WAY before TES:III, so no, you didn't kill Almalexia and Vivec yet. Why would anyone kill Vivec anyway? I just let him walk away, he is one of the best characters of the entire franchise.
And you didn't kill Sotha Sil at all. Almalexia killed him after she lost her mind.
Wrong, ZOS says it takes place after oblivion and before skyrim. Plus if it takes place before morro wind that means that the is at least one dwarf left alive who could have easily shown people how to make the metal.Edited by Iago on 20 April 2014 06:03That which we obtain to cheap we esteem to lightly, it is dearness only that gives everything its value.
-Thomas Pain3 -
Catdrexion✭✭✭ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »wCatdrexion wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »are you sure you're not over thinking this?
ZOS said they would be sticking to lore. This is just so an obvious oversight that it makes me feel likeethey don't actually care about the franchise or community at all and that we've been lied too. I don't see how I am over thinking anything.
Look all i am trying to say is that this is a silly thing yo let ruin your gaming experience. I encountered an ordinator from Mournhold in Grahtwood. He said that Alm3xia sent him there but I clearly remember killing Sothasil Vivicand Almelexia When I played morrowind.
But whatever it was a fun quest anyway.
This game is WAY before TES:III, so no, you didn't kill Almalexia and Vivec yet. Why would anyone kill Vivec anyway? I just let him walk away, he is one of the best characters of the entire franchise.
And you didn't kill Sotha Sil at all. Almalexia killed him after she lost her mind.
Wrong, ZOS says it takes place after oblivion and before skyrim. Plus if it takes place before morro wind that means that the is at least one dwarf left alive who could have easily shown people how to make the metal.
I do not know where you are getting your information, but you are just plain wrong.
-Skyrim takes place 200 years after Oblivion, ZOS has said multiple times that ESO is 1,000 years before Skyrim, so it cannot be after Oblivion, can it?
-Sotha Sil was killed by Almalexia, so you cannot "remember killing him" unless you are mistaking SS for Dagoth Ur.
-Yagrum Bagarn is one dwarf, and he is a bloated corprus infected husk living in seclusion with Divayth Fyr and his clone daughter-wives, the Nerevarine doesn't even know he exists before going to cure his corprus, so why would the rest of the world? It's also possible that he's still in the Outer Realms during the time ESO takes place. As for him knowing how to make metal, he does actually try to record his knowledge for the surviving races, but apparently that only extends to artifacts.
And this is not a "silly thing" this is major lore that has existed since the beginning of the TES games that ZOS just wrote off as not a big deal because they were either too lazy to come up with alternatives or just didn't care enough to work at a fix. What if they put in Falmer NPCs everywhere or made it so Nirn only had one moon? It's lore of similar magnitude and should not be dismissed as "silly".5
