Please Stop Trivializing Content

Kendaric

kaer426 wrote: »

and I can't stop laughing at this : "simply can't stand flashy class powers" why? because they are flashy? that's got to be a first

Yes, because they are flashy, whether you believe it or not. It was one of the reasons I quit SWTOR, as the Force powers are all about flashy VFX and didn't feel like Star Wars.

I want to play a mundane warrior type, not some guy wielding flashy magic powers. I like a more mundane type of fantasy in general, often refered to as fantastic realism, rather than see flashy VFX thrown at me.

@Nordjitsu:

It might trivialize the content, but only for the players who choose to group. As such it would leave everybody the choice between doing it the hard or the easy way without the need to nerf the content for those who want a challenge.

Edit:

I should add that, when speaking of non-optimized builds, I don't refer to builds that are utterly silly for soloing and wholly reliant on a group to make it through any sort of content alive. I'm fully expecting such characters to be unable to take on any bosses and that's ok. But a relatively solid, even though non-optimized, build should be able to handle any solo content at level without being forced into specific skills.
Also, blocking/dodging/interrupting (or running out of the bad stuff) are a given.

NordJitsu

@bearcalypse‌

There's nothing wrong with roleplaying. And I think its a shame that all stamina builds are so junky.

But that just means they need to improve some of the stamina based skills, not ruin the boss fights.

bearcalypse

NordJitsu wrote: »

Oh....

Opening these fights to groups is a horrible idea. That would trivialize things even more.

That's like super duper easy mode.

Not if they implemented mob scaling like any second generation onward multiplayer rpg or modern mmo. This lack of scaling destroys anchor events, public dungeon boss mobs and any sense of achievement as a group in game. For a next gen MMO lacking mob scaling is just shameful and reeks of cutting corners and laziness.

nudel

I'm pretty sure anchors have scaling. Can't confirm it for sure, but I've definitely seen a lot more mobs and different types of mobs spawn from anchors when there are more or less players around it. Again, this could be a 'correlation not causation' case, but at least from my observation, they tend to scale to a point.

The point you're seeming to miss here @bearcalypse‌ is that these key boss fights were supposed to be mile markers that taught the player major mechanics. If these quests were opened up to group play, the lesson is less meaningful and can be avoided entirely as you can simply do what you've always done and win anyway. These enemy types and attacks crop up again in higher level play and in PVP. It's vitally important that players learn to interrupt. It's vitally important that they learn timed blocking and dodging. It's important that they learn to get out of the aoe circle. I know that some of these lessons could be learned from other normal mobs, but those mobs don't do nearly enough damage to make it worth learning. You could roll out of a Spider's aoe, but why bother. It doesn't do enough damage to really make a case for defensive abilities. These key bosses however do (or rather did). If a boss aoe instantly kills you, you learn very quickly to dodgeroll out. You either do...or you die repeatedly until you do. It's a testing ground.

This thread isn't about elitism or flexing epeen. Rather the whole point of keeping these forced lessons is to make new players into better players and thereby make them better teammates. When I'm caught in a vet level 4-man dungeon, I don't want to cause a wipe because I never had to learn how to dodge or interrupt or manage my resources. Likewise I want to know that the players that are with me have got my back. I want to trust that they are competent to a point because they made it through several key hurdles.

If anything these forced roadblocks level the playing field. By dumbing them down, PVP and endgame PVE will be dominated largely by those precious few with natural talent as those who started behind will stay behind. The gap widens. Wouldn't you rather the game teach you how to get better? I know I would. What seems to be happening now in PVP is new players die without even knowing what killed them. Because they can't distinguish what mechanics were used to bring them down, they can't get better. That's exactly the scenario that these boss lessons were meant to prevent.

sumpinfierce

This is a great post, and was a pleasure to read through. I agree wholeheartedly that through Beta, I was learning to Interrupt, Block, Dodge just to stay alive against some standard encounters. I, too, was saddened to learn they are nerfing Doshia, and there is another post on the forums bemoaning it that I responded too.

I love that in this game you actually have to manually block, dodge and attack, instead of 'white' auto attack damage, and equipping a shield with stats that make you 'uncrittable' or however that old faceroll tanking system used to work.

This game has some amazing things going for it, but nerfing content is not one of them. The bar was set fairly high, but instead of lowering it so people can walk over it, teach them to jump!

nickster2112b16_ESO

ZOS either nerfs the content for the complainers that its too hard and looses players that want a challenge and players that get bored because they wont be able to keep up with content updates or keeps the content hard and looses players which are bad i know which i prefer.

Filodendron

So the OP learned the mechanics of the fight on beta, practiced a lot and now when he went to kill him a second time it was easier? Hmm ...that's odd indeed

Personally i couldn't really put my skills in use at any encounters i faced, killed Doshia first time by kiting her around the room, ignored the orbs and there was nothing to block/interrupt.

Further down the path everything was bugged, at level 30 in the halls of torment, after many attempts, the first boss i killed because his skeletons got bugged, Lyris doppleganger, who had no animations whatsoever, went down cause she kept attacking my bugged companion and the last boss i perma-stunned with Silver bolts.

Not really the best design so far.
As for the option of having a friend help me with my main quest i don't see how this would take away from YOUR experience.

bearcalypse

nudel wrote: »

I'm pretty sure anchors have scaling. Can't confirm it for sure, but I've definitely seen a lot more mobs and different types of mobs spawn from anchors when there are more or less players around it. Again, this could be a 'correlation not causation' case, but at least from my observation, they tend to scale to a point.

Could have fooled me and everyone who gets to anchors and nothing lasts more than 2 seconds. So your impression is that there's scaling in the game but it's just tweaked so badly that it might as well not be there?

The point you're seeming to miss here @bearcalypse‌ is that these key boss fights were supposed to be mile markers that taught the player major mechanics. If these quests were opened up to group play, the lesson is less meaningful and can be avoided entirely as you can simply do what you've always done and win anyway.

Wait wait, so suddenly game mechanics stop working because you're in a group? The person using taunt to keep the boss away from his squishy cloth wearing friend will never learn to block or dodge. If the boss winds up a big attack and resets aggro, the ranged guy will never learn to block or dodge because bosses have no ranged attacks? That logic of yours makes no sense. People can still learn skills and how to play their characters while still in a group.

These enemy types and attacks crop up again in higher level play and in PVP. It's vitally important that players learn to interrupt. It's vitally important that they learn timed blocking and dodging. It's important that they learn to get out of the aoe circle. I know that some of these lessons could be learned from other normal mobs, but those mobs don't do nearly enough damage to make it worth learning. You could roll out of a Spider's aoe, but why bother. It doesn't do enough damage to really make a case for defensive abilities. These key bosses however do (or rather did). If a boss aoe instantly kills you, you learn very quickly to dodgeroll out. You either do...or you die repeatedly until you do. It's a testing ground.

Don't group dungeon bosses do this already? Mechanics are there for people to learn all the game mechanics by doing group dungeons. I mean I can understand a certain level of this for MMO-noobs like some of the Elder Scrolls players coming into this game, but if you can't teach them how to play their characters without forcing them to die till their gear is too broken to go on and then have to reset the missions, you fail as a developer and game designer.

This thread isn't about elitism or flexing epeen. Rather the whole point of keeping these forced lessons is to make new players into better players and thereby make them better teammates. When I'm caught in a vet level 4-man dungeon, I don't want to cause a wipe because I never had to learn how to dodge or interrupt or manage my resources. Likewise I want to know that the players that are with me have got my back. I want to trust that they are competent to a point because they made it through several key hurdles.

If you can't teach them how to play their characters while grouped, you again fail as a game designer. Quit now and let some intern do your job better. There have been plenty of multiplayer RPGs and MMOs that teach people how to play their characters without removing their ability to group. ESO is not some special gimped snowflake that has to do something different because everybody else did it another way and the IP can't handle it.

If anything these forced roadblocks level the playing field. By dumbing them down, PVP and endgame PVE will be dominated largely by those precious few with natural talent as those who started behind will stay behind. The gap widens. Wouldn't you rather the game teach you how to get better? I know I would. What seems to be happening now in PVP is new players die without even knowing what killed them. Because they can't distinguish what mechanics were used to bring them down, they can't get better. That's exactly the scenario that these boss lessons were meant to prevent.

I might be sympathetic to this argument if things were not so buggy. We have no idea if people can't complete missions because NPCs are unresponsive or we have no visual cues from bosses because they just stand there and then you get slammed with their special attack with no wind-up. If people are dying without knowing what got them I suggest they implement a better combat log without forcing people to download an addon for it - at least the addons seem to be less buggy than the actual game.

NordJitsu

@nudel‌

Exactly. You summed things up maybe better than I could have (I'm sometimes long winded.)

Really, everyone who is going through the content in its current stage is at a disservice when it comes to PvP and endgame PvE. They will never have had the learning experience. When they get to hard content, they might have poor builds and poor skills that make things way more frustrating than they would otherwise have been.

@Filodendron‌

No.

Yes I've improved as a player, but that's not whats happening here.

Mannimarco had his damage and health cut in half. He's a pale shadow of his former self.

No matter how good I got, I could never have beaten this fight with 90-95% health the way he was before. This Manni is a joke.

Sakiri

NordJitsu wrote: »

Devilfish85 wrote: »

An update ingame, or even a combat primer on the website, might help people build the right foundational skills and mindset early on to adapt and overcome the way ESO encourages.

Nerf a man a boss, and he'll win for a day. Teach him to fight like a boss, and he'll win for a lifetime.

I support this.

Instead of trivializing content for those who do know how to play, the focus should be on teaching those who are having issues.

There are some physically incapable of the reaction time required for some of these fights. And theyre REQUIRED for later content. REQUIRED.

The first thing I should have thought after killing Mannimarco should have been "wow.. that was awesome!" It wasnt. You know what it was? "Well hell, my friend isnt going to be able to do that."

That should never be the first thought. And because of that, I think you should be able to bring someone. Even if its one other person and theyd have to have done it already.

NordJitsu

@Sakiri‌

That's the definition of playing to the lowest common denominator. And its bad.

Darastix

NordJitsu wrote: »

Darastix wrote: »

I would have personally preferred them allowing someone to get help from their friends in these "solo" quests over making the fight easier, but in the end if making it easier keeps players from quitting from frustration then ill accept it. Although the game overall seems heavily weighted in favor of those with good gear, proper skill choices AKA "The Trinity" in groups with seasoned teams, personal skill is at most a minor factor.

You're 100% wrong here.

What makes this game so great is that player skill really really matters in combat. Like, a lot. Or at least it did in the old Mannimarco fight. Proper use of skills, dodging, blocking, interrupting, ect. determined whether you won or lost.

You could have two players with the exact same build and one would get owned by a boss while the other would embarrass it.

Yes, and your ability to use those skills "dodging, blocking, interrupting" is greatly influenced by your build and what stats on the gear you have, because of this someone with a build/gear not setup to maximize those abilities may find themselves empty on stamina waiting for death. So personal skill is not as much a factor as gear/build.

Faolanhart

Every single MMO, hell every single game will have people complain that it's too easy or too hard.
The Elder Scrolls games from at least Morrowind were never about challenge.
They are about exploration & dialogue & whilst Online is far more formulaic than the others due to standard MMO things I'm perfectly fine with the difficulty in the game as it stands.
Skyrim wasn't boring because you could one shot a sleeping dragon with a dagger, Oblivion wasn't boring because stealth was basically god mode & Online isn't boring because you can slaughter most enemies without much skill.
Hell you can pretty much kill everything without much skill in the past three Elder Scrolls games.

This is an Elder Scrolls MMO & Elder Scrolls games are casual RPGs & there isn't anything wrong with that.
I mean I like Dark Souls also & just like that game doesn't need to be easy an Elder Scrolls game doesn't need to be tough.

Sakiri

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Sakiri‌

That's the definition of playing to the lowest common denominator. And its bad.

I dont thing bringing someone thats done it before is playing to the lowest common denominator.

Im not looking to bring a full group. Im looking to help a disabled friend complete content thats mandatory for him to complete so we can do vet content together.

This whole argument *is* about elitism, despite what some of you think. You wont get people with physical or mental limitations to "get better". Youll just get them to leave. They leave, thats less money. ZOS is going to follow the money.

Instead of nerfing the crap out of it, Im suggesting they let you bring a friend. One. That's already done it. That way they stop nerfing it for the hardcore leet guys that want it hard as balls.

NordJitsu

@Darastix‌

Not really sure what you're trying to argue. Yes builds are important. But again, player skill is probably more important. I could give the same exact build to two different people and their success would vary wildly based on skill. Seems like you're getting really general and far off the topic of the thread though, so I'll just leave it there.

@Sakiri‌

If you can bring a friend, then you'd be dumb not to bring a friend. The whole idea that these fights are learning experiences goes out the window at that point.

If you balance a fight for one player, adding a second is literally cutting the difficulty in half.

Sakiri

Except that its still optional.

If they want to keep a broad audience like rhey claim to, theyll either have ro allow for assistance or keep nerfing the hell out of it.

You wont be happy either way, and they appear to be taking the "nerf the hell out of it" method.

The more of these casual slow levelers get to these fights, the more kvetching thats going to happen. The reason theres not *more* complaining now is that many arent there yet. When the masses get there, prepare for a ***.

There *will* be more nerfs.

These fights are already mostly trivial for certain classes and builds. Like after I heard how bad Manni was I was like "this is going to hurt". Nope. Burning talons killed the ghosts for me, and standard of might dropped, heavy attacks and dots ripped over half his hp.

And dont get me started on silver bolts. Valley of blades was impossible until I took that skill. Then it went faceroll.

Difficulty changes like that based on one skill is just stupid.

Darastix

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Darastix‌

Not really sure what you're trying to argue. Yes builds are important. But again, player skill is probably more important. I could give the same exact build to two different people and their success would vary wildly based on skill. Seems like you're getting really general and far off the topic of the thread though, so I'll just leave it there.

The point i'm trying to make is the more difficult the game is, the more valuable having a specific build becomes. This game has been promoted with "play the way your want", Not "learn to be elite".

Sfrichck

They need to concentrate more on the hackers already in the game who can make them selves invisible or teleport anywhere they want in a sec then on nerfing contant that doesnt need to be nerfed. I did a mages guild quests the other day that in the beta I died to alot until i played around with my abilities. But live i went in there expecting a nice fight and the mob didnt even get my health down to 50%. I have too many health potions just sitting in my bags now cause I have no reason to use them. The closest thing I come to challenges now are Anchors with only 3 other people with me with no healers.

NordJitsu

Darastix wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Darastix‌

Not really sure what you're trying to argue. Yes builds are important. But again, player skill is probably more important. I could give the same exact build to two different people and their success would vary wildly based on skill. Seems like you're getting really general and far off the topic of the thread though, so I'll just leave it there.

The point i'm trying to make is the more difficult the game is, the more valuable having a specific build becomes. This game has been promoted with "play the way your want", Not "learn to be elite".

Okay well that point is wrong.

Again, learning to play well doesn't mean you can't "play the way you want to play" in terms of builds. Its only problematic if "the way you want to play" is standing in AoE rings, not blocking powerful attacks, failing to interrupt casts, blowing your resources, ect.

If that's the way you want to play there is no helping you.

But there are, again, hundreds upon hundreds of builds that are viable in competitive play.

Nex201

As a progress player for 6 years I now feal kinda bad that I had to adjust my build to syphoning to beat mannimarco. I didnt think it was easy without selfheal

Alandauron

NordJitsu wrote: »

Okay well that point is wrong.

Again, learning to play well doesn't mean you can't "play the way you want to play" in terms of builds. Its only problematic if "the way you want to play" is standing in AoE rings, not blocking powerful attacks, failing to interrupt casts, blowing your resources, ect.

If that's the way you want to play there is no helping you.

But there are, again, hundreds upon hundreds of builds that are viable in competitive play.

Agreed, 100% agreed. There are plenty of builds that are viable to overcome the (used to be) hard bosses. I went in at level, after reading on the forums of what to do, and still got facerolled the first time, and then 3 more times after that. But I managed to take him down with 15% life left and it felt so good. I HAD to use health pots to stay alive, but I didn't have to change much in my skills, just a slight tweak. I HAD to dodge out of his aoe and it helped to interrupt his life drain. These are things that any build could have utilized. Potions and tactics.

Also this whole play the way you want...so if I want to "play" as a drunk with no skills on my bar and only utilize light attacks then I should be able to beat the baddest baddie in the current timeline? Sure play the way you want, but don't expect that playing as a scrub can allow you to beat tough bosses, that's just silly. If you want to RP, great, but don't cause(or expect) the to game change to favor your RP.

Basically, 1337 or not doesn't matter. I'm not great, but I know that to beat challenges I have to adapt, this doesn't just apply in gaming, but RL too.

NordJitsu

@Nex201‌

You shouldn't feel bad. What you learned there is that you need some type of self sustain if you don't have a healer with you. That's a valuable lesson if you ever intend to do any solo play in Cyrodil.

LoneWalker

Manly tears rolling down my face right now as i read this! Good show OP! Good show indeed! People asking to nerf PVE content are worse than trash, can't take a freaking challenge? Don't play games, or play the ones you're sure to win. Leave what's good for who knows how to appreciate.

Alandauron

As far as Doshia goes I don't see what the trouble is anymore. I remember why I had trouble, those bubbles. Once I found out that popping dem bubbles kept her from regaining hp it was all over. Then after they nerfed her popping the bubbles restored your hp...wth? Now they're nerfing her again? What now, popping her bubbles gives you full health...wait no she does half the damage she did previously...this is ridiculous.

Keep nerfing everything into the ground ZOS, I've advocated many a time to nay sayers to just stick around things will get better...if the game enters easy mode I won't be able to say that anymore. I want a challenge in a game, I want to have to figure things out and use the skills you implemented in the game. I haven't used a single hp pot so far in the game and have only died in 1 group public dungeon, sanguine's demesne, and only due to those players that ran through agroing all those mobs at once.

ChuiDuma

I have to say I agree with the OP.

And yes, a lot of this game DOES rely on skill. Now that the game has transitioned to live, I see people playing at or above my level and almost dying to normal mobs, often. It's because they don't hardly ever dodge, interrupt, or block. These three mechanisms are IMPORTANT to gameplay in ESO. I cannot count the number of players I have saved from getting creamed by normal mobs because they weren't using skills that they should be learning from these fights.

So yes, skill DOES matter. Yes, dodge/blocks/interrupts matter.

And for the record, you don't have to have a special build for these abilities, you just adapt these skills to your build. For instance, my dragonknight will block and walk out of an AoE rather than roll dodging, because I have blocking buffs from my heavy armor. My nightblade will dodge-roll out. If I am playing a sorc, I can still dodge roll and block. There is no reason to NOT utilize these skills with any build, you just have to figure out how to make them work for you. It's part of the learning process, and part of what makes you a better player.

Darastix

NordJitsu wrote: »

Darastix wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Darastix‌

Not really sure what you're trying to argue. Yes builds are important. But again, player skill is probably more important. I could give the same exact build to two different people and their success would vary wildly based on skill. Seems like you're getting really general and far off the topic of the thread though, so I'll just leave it there.

The point i'm trying to make is the more difficult the game is, the more valuable having a specific build becomes. This game has been promoted with "play the way your want", Not "learn to be elite".

Okay well that point is wrong.

Again, learning to play well doesn't mean you can't "play the way you want to play" in terms of builds. Its only problematic if "the way you want to play" is standing in AoE rings, not blocking powerful attacks, failing to interrupt casts, blowing your resources, ect.

If that's the way you want to play there is no helping you.

But there are, again, hundreds upon hundreds of builds that are viable in competitive play.

Well i guess were just going to have to agree to disagree, because while i haven't had any personal issues in combat, i have seen many that do and will quit because of it.

LonePirate

@NordJitsu I couldn't disagree more with your statement about Doshia never being difficult. For many, many people who battle her at level and know nothing about her - especially if they play a melee character in first person view in her tiny lair in Stonefalls - she is an unforgiving beast as you never see the orbs coming and if you do, you have little time to understand their purpose or stop them from reaching her. This challenging game mechanic is not the fault of the player.

Knowledge is king in this game and for many people, the method for defeating Doshia is very difficult to learn. I would much rather see content nerfed than have hordes of new players quit due to game mechanics and no fault of their own.

NordJitsu

@LonePirate‌

Okay well I personally did the original doshia as a relatively squishy melee sorc. I did die maybe once or twice until I figured out the orb thing. Again, learning.

If people want to be able to ignore boss mechanics and just blast her down, they shouldn't be playing this game.

Its not a hard fight once you figure out that you need to pop those orbs. A fact that can be easily gleaned by just asking in /zone.

zhevon

Ummm ... I generally agree ... but as it was as of yesterday; many times you had no idea why you died. They need to convey better what is happening to you (ie whats causing the damage your are taking) and make dodge a less useless stamina waste. Certainly its obvious when 2 wolves are chewing on you; but its not always obvious.

Side - somewhat related note; if you have a quest with a duel outsiders should not be allowed interfere with your duel. I wanted to test my mad nightblade skills and various (different) aholes kept interferring.

jenshady

Yes Yes and Yes!!! I hope ZOS reads this. The road they are heading now isn't good for the long term with nerfing everything IMO.