Halls of torment / Lyris Doppelganger

Raubrey

steven.flemingub17_ESO wrote: »

Good luck I really hope it helps. As for Shadow Cloak I honestly don't understand why Shadow Cloak isn't used more by NB's. It's totally underrated but definitely rocks.

Maybe it is underrated because people have had similar experience as I did, I'm speculating.

For whatever reason Shadow Cloak didn't work for me at low levels and a guildmate had the same experience. It never allowed us to drop ranged aggro in particular and often it didn't help that much for sneaking. I am going to try it again...I dropped it on a respec and have a better understanding of the class, survivability etc. now at LV 40.

Otherwise, I'm too far into siphon/2h/restro to make full use of the complimentary abilities but I'll give it another shot and see how it works on a tough boss at least.

It seems the majority posting in the thread are Nightblades ...which may be meaningful if someone does consider any changes to the boss or level.

I am interested to see how my templar does when it reaches 30. I'm not real optimistic that I'll enjoy the fight any more even if I manage to succeed then. I've enjoyed most all the fights in the game including dungeons (even the ones that have one-shotted me on occasion) but this one is a different beast.

Aicilef

Yes,s ame problems here. Just like with the level 20 Harborage quest, this quest is simply too hard to solo. It certainly was for me, as nightblade.

These developers need a reality check. They seem to demand that all players are hardcore players that know exactly what to do at the exact right time. Th atis the only reason I can think of why they make these main quest stories so hard and mandatory solo.

Either that or the developer had a bet with someone: design a quest where 5% of the players simply quit the game and never come back to ESO. Pretty sure he won that bet.

And it's not like they care: 5 pages of complaints about a mandatory quest and not one single answer from the DEVs.

Two letters and one number for you: F, 2 and P. That's the only solution for this game: when you keep treating customers complaints like this, you can't expect them to keep paying.

Yankee

No offense, but for every post here probably thousands of others have soloed it. I see lots of people in VR so they must have.

It is a hard fight. It requires lots of movement. I have done it on a NB, Templar, and DK. My 28 Sorc will be there soon. I might die a couple times but will prevail. And I am certainly not an exceptional player.

I am sure they will nerf it, as they have most of the other solo bosses.

To the point where even the bots can solo it.

Kendaric

Yankee wrote: »

No offense, but for every post here probably thousands of others have soloed it. I see lots of people in VR so they must have.

It is a hard fight. It requires lots of movement. I have done it on a NB, Templar, and DK. My 28 Sorc will be there soon. I might die a couple times but will prevail. And I am certainly not an exceptional player.

I am sure they will nerf it, as they have most of the other solo bosses.

To the point where even the bots can solo it.

Sure, there are players who could beat the quest at level, others like me simply overleveled it and were then able to solo it as we should.
That doesn't make the complaints less valid though. The fight is designed for one player plus a companion and the companion is basically worthless in the fight. That's what's causing problems.

What they could do with the harvesters in general is changing the way the orbs work. Instead of having a single orb heal them to full, change them to a HoT (the same for the player of course) or have them heal only a quarter of health lost per orb that reaches them. That way, if you miss one or two orbs, you don't have to basically start over.

Yankee

"Kendaric wrote: »

Sure, there are players who could beat the quest at level, others like me simply overleveled it and were then able to solo it as we should.
That doesn't make the complaints less valid though. The fight is designed for one player plus a companion and the companion is basically worthless in the fight. That's what's causing problems.

I agree companion AI is pretty buggy and they need to work on it. I have noticed that companions on some quests seem more powerful than during beta.

But they do bug out and not help sometimes, and that does not help on this fight.

Obviously this is only my opinion, but I see only that part of peoples complaint as valid.

Raubrey

Yankee wrote: »

No offense, but for every post here probably thousands of others have soloed it. I see lots of people in VR so they must have.

It is a hard fight. It requires lots of movement. I have done it on a NB, Templar, and DK. My 28 Sorc will be there soon. I might die a couple times but will prevail. And I am certainly not an exceptional player.

I am sure they will nerf it, as they have most of the other solo bosses.

To the point where even the bots can solo it.

You seem to be not understanding. Additionally you're taking your frustration out about bots and nerfed bosses out on people with valid complaints.

Firstly, being a VR does not mean you have skill. Many VRs only function well if overpowered for quests or in a group and aren't doing so well now. Otherwise, who is to say when they did the quest.

If you read the thread the complaints are consistent and include from people like myself who like a challenge. I could tank the last dungeon boss as a Nightblade in Elden Root (not a planned thing) with low level players, before I could complete this quest. My NB is not a tank.

I've had quests I had to level up and come back on, no problem, but this boss fight was not even *fun* with its mechanics as drawn out as they are.

The quest after it, Valley of Blades, is not particularly easy and you don't see the same complaints. The companions actually work there as well.

But sadly, I know people waiting until LV 40+ now to do this quest so pretty much these people will be OP and not enjoying the rest of the questline. One that was enjoyable until Halls of Torment.

I respect the fact that there may be a majority that were able to complete the quest and many may have done so at level 30 but Nightblades seem to really have a bad time with it and other classes were mentioned too. And who knows how many people aren't speaking up as most people won't -- on the forums or otherwise.

Lastly, it's not like this is a player's first encounter with a Harvester if he/she did did the Veiled Inheritance quests.

There is something wrong with this quest at least part of the time-- and I am sure it could be tweaked a little to keep it challenging without being made too easy. Personally, I think the quest is closer to LV 35+ and since it is a *Main Quest* should be accessible to all classes (and preferably enjoyable) -- there are plenty of sidequests and dungeons one can do, at higher level if need be, for extra challenge.

Allyah

Raubrey wrote: »

Yankee wrote: »

No offense, but for every post here probably thousands of others have soloed it. I see lots of people in VR so they must have.

It is a hard fight. It requires lots of movement. I have done it on a NB, Templar, and DK. My 28 Sorc will be there soon. I might die a couple times but will prevail. And I am certainly not an exceptional player.

I am sure they will nerf it, as they have most of the other solo bosses.

To the point where even the bots can solo it.

You seem to be not understanding. Additionally you're taking your frustration out about bots and nerfed bosses out on people with valid complaints.

Firstly, being a VR does not mean you have skill. Many VRs only function well if overpowered for quests or in a group and aren't doing so well now. Otherwise, who is to say when they did the quest.

If you read the thread the complaints are consistent and include from people like myself who like a challenge. I could tank the last dungeon boss as a Nightblade in Elden Root (not a planned thing) with low level players, before I could complete this quest. My NB is not a tank.

I've had quests I had to level up and come back on, no problem, but this boss fight was not even *fun* with its mechanics as drawn out as they are.

The quest after it, Valley of Blades, is not particularly easy and you don't see the same complaints. The companions actually work there as well.

But sadly, I know people waiting until LV 40+ now to do this quest so pretty much these people will be OP and not enjoying the rest of the questline. One that was enjoyable until Halls of Torment.

I respect the fact that there may be a majority that were able to complete the quest and many may have done so at level 30 but Nightblades seem to really have a bad time with it and other classes were mentioned too. And who knows how many people aren't speaking up as most people won't -- on the forums or otherwise.

Lastly, it's not like this is a player's first encounter with a Harvester if he/she did did the Veiled Inheritance quests.

There is something wrong with this quest at least part of the time-- and I am sure it could be tweaked a little to keep it challenging without being made too easy. Personally, I think the quest is closer to LV 35+ and since it is a *Main Quest* should be accessible to all classes (and preferably enjoyable) -- there are plenty of sidequests and dungeons one can do, at higher level if need be, for extra challenge.

You seem to be the one who didn't understand his point. Yankee only mentioned it being difficult but do-able. And (s)he mentioned if things are continuously nerfed, it just makes things that much easier for bots.

Not all the complaints are valid. Every type of class at or near level 30 has been able to solo this boss. If you haven't been able to, you just haven't figured out how to beat it yet. Yes, your companion is bugged, and that makes it significantly harder than it should be. However, that doesn't mean the people on this forum asking for it to be easier have a valid point. Mainly because they don't understand the issue in the first place (bugged companion, not being diverse enough in their skills, not understanding roll mechanics, etc.)

I'm not saying you don't understand any of this, just that Yankee's comment was directed to some of the people who didn't understand it.

Lanatireb17_ESO

But you do realize that, with the companions and the (currently really crappy) follower AI working the encounter WOULD be significantly less difficult? So...are you saying fixing the companions is a nerf?

Allyah

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

But you do realize that, with the companions and the (currently really crappy) follower AI working the encounter WOULD be significantly less difficult? So...are you saying fixing the companions is a nerf?

If you were speaking to me, I don't believe I ever claimed anything other than fixing the follower would make it less difficult. No, you are misinterpreting my words. I was talking about the people who wanted to make the boss fight easier, not the people who wanted the companion fixed.

Lanatireb17_ESO

fixing the companion MAKES the bossfight easier. im sure noone would complain about this bossfight if it would actually work as intended.

Lanatireb17_ESO

same goes for mannimarco btw. if your three companions wouldnt be standing around 99% of the time reading the newspaper, the encounter would be much easier too

Allyah

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

fixing the companion MAKES the bossfight easier. im sure noone would complain about this bossfight if it would actually work as intended.

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

same goes for mannimarco btw. if your three companions wouldnt be standing around 99% of the time reading the newspaper, the encounter would be much easier too

Again, I believe we've already established this.

Lanatireb17_ESO

Allyah wrote: »

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

fixing the companion MAKES the bossfight easier. im sure noone would complain about this bossfight if it would actually work as intended.

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

same goes for mannimarco btw. if your three companions wouldnt be standing around 99% of the time reading the newspaper, the encounter would be much easier too

Again, I believe we've already established this.

Yeah. But the whole discussion would be obsolete. There would be no argument if things need to be nerfed if they would just WORK.

Allyah

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

fixing the companion MAKES the bossfight easier. im sure noone would complain about this bossfight if it would actually work as intended.

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

same goes for mannimarco btw. if your three companions wouldnt be standing around 99% of the time reading the newspaper, the encounter would be much easier too

Again, I believe we've already established this.

Yeah. But the whole discussion would be obsolete. There would be no argument if things need to be nerfed if they would just WORK.

So you have simply repeated something others have said in an attempt to get a higher post count. Gottcha.

Lanatireb17_ESO

Sweetheart, i started this thread, so i hope its ok to you when i answer now and then.

Raubrey

Allyah wrote: »

Not all the complaints are valid. Every type of class at or near level 30 has been able to solo this boss. If you haven't been able to, you just haven't figured out how to beat it yet.

Funny my build works in 99% of the other quests.

How about a poll of how many people completed the boss at that level and were not in Beta, and of those, how many actually enjoyed the fight. I know of people who completed it at 30 after 30-60 minutes and it didn't sound too much fun. I guess too bad forum polls are not especially useful.

Lanatireb17 is quite right. Valley of Blades was challenging (probably less so on some builds), but it was so in a good way. The companions worked...they weren't heavy damage dealers but at least drew some aggro and weren't reading the Tamriel Times, to paraphrase Lana.

Allyah

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Sweetheart, i started this thread, so i hope its ok to you when i answer now and then.

Did I ever mention not wanting you to respond or did you pull that out of thin air? I simply hope for a response to what I am actually saying. Nothing more, nothing less. Since you have resorted to condescension I suppose you have nothing more worthy to say?

Loxy37

I'm not bragging or anything but as a sorcerer, I found it easy and did it first time with very little effort. In fact it was so easy that I almost cried how easy this game has become. If I was you, I would go back in a few levels. To say the quest is a game breaker is a massive over statement because you only get those quest about every 5-10 levels and they can be completed anytime within that time frame and it doesn't halt your progress to level 50. I have one now for level 40 at the harbourage and I'm level 45, just keep forgetting to do it.

Edit: forgot to say that lyris just stood there on every fight I have had her on so far and that sure needs fixing. To any sorcerers or any class finding it hard, use magicka food or health food as it helps. Also if sorcerer, use spells once then use a heavy attack from your staff, spell, staff and so on which really helps conserve magicka. Also don't forget weapon swap, use a healing staff and spells then switch back but make sure you have your pets slotted on the healing side or you will lose them when you swap to healing.

Lanatireb17_ESO

well, dont mind me, but you came along as a tad bit arrogant here, my dear Allyah. And i dont understand your point. At all. We AGREED (didnt we?) that the companions are not working, and hence the bossfights are in some cases more difficult than necessary. And as a result of it, i said: If they WOULD work there wouldnt even be a discussion about how hard they are.
So...what is there to respond to? The companion not working IS the biggest complaint, and it is valid. You said most complaints are NOT valid. So...what exactly IS your point that you expect an answer to?

Allyah

Raubrey wrote: »

Allyah wrote: »

Not all the complaints are valid. Every type of class at or near level 30 has been able to solo this boss. If you haven't been able to, you just haven't figured out how to beat it yet.

Funny my build works in 99% of the other quests.

How about a poll of how many people completed the boss at that level and were not in Beta, and of those, how many actually enjoyed the fight. I know of people who completed it at 30 after 30-60 minutes and it didn't sound too much fun. I guess too bad forum polls are not especially useful.

Lanatireb17 is quite right. Valley of Blades was challenging (probably less so on some builds), but it was so in a good way. The companions worked...they weren't heavy damage dealers but at least drew some aggro and weren't reading the Tamriel Times, to paraphrase Lana.

If you're going to quote me, respond to what I say. I did not deny any of this.

As for the poll you speak of, I think it would be useful if you could somehow make sure no one from beta could answer.

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

well, dont mind me, but you came along as a tad bit arrogant here, my dear Allyah. And i dont understand your point. At all. We AGREED (didnt we?) that the companions are not working, and hence the bossfights are in some cases more difficult than necessary. And as a result of it, i said: If they WOULD work there wouldnt even be a discussion about how hard they are.
So...what is there to respond to? The companion not working IS the biggest complaint, and it is valid. You said most complaints are NOT valid. So...what exactly IS your point that you expect an answer to?

I would suggest reading my words without a perception of how I mean them. Otherwise, you are just assuming I have a tone.

"But you do realize that, with the companions and the (currently really crappy) follower AI working the encounter WOULD be significantly less difficult? So...are you saying fixing the companions is a nerf?"

You seemed to have misunderstood me from my very first comment and continued to do so (because you thought I had a certain tone?). You continued on with comments that were irrelevant to what I did say. If you really thought there was nothing to respond to, why respond with anything? Several people have made a complaint about it being too hard. (Edit:The mobs are not too hard, the companions are simply bugged.) I don't expect an answer for anything if you are unable to respond with something that has not been said before (particularly if I just said it).

Lanatireb17_ESO

Wow. just wow. You know, i would prefer not talking to you anymore. While this is a free forum and everyone can post however they want, this is a thread i created. There is obviously nothing you have to contribute to my original post, so, post whatever you want here, but dont respond to me. I prefer talking to people with a minimum amount of courtesy.

woodall.drewb14_ESO

I finally beat it. Yes my companion was glitched. I remember seeing this threat when I was getting frustrated so I figured I'd post what method I used in the hopes that it might help at least one of you.

Before I get into it let me just say YES this quest is hard. But it is not impossible. I was level 30 and I completed it. I was wearing greens and I had a single blue belt.

My Class: Templar
Race: Imperial
Weapons: 2 Hander + Sword and Board (S&B were not used in this fight)
Role in a dungeon: Getting laughed at for a generalist build / poor self healing tank / probably pretty low damage per second 2 hander.

The skills that I used which were most relevant to the fight were as follows (forgive me for forgetting the actual names):
Multitarget attack w/ bleed
Heal (though not really that necessary)
Templar fireball


My tactic was as follows:
1st. Don't count on whoever you brought with you. They are glitched.


Hit w/ both DOTs so she's bleeding and burning while using a standard attacks circle her. To do this effectively don't fight her in the middle because you'll get stuck on bottles and the crap strewn around there.

The reason why you are circling is because before she does pretty much any major attack she is going to stop this allows you to get out of that damn cone attack she spams.

That cone attack does pretty good damage to you and what is probably the root cause of what is getting you killed. I think each hit takes 15% of your health away and her steal health move hits you for like 60% (I think). This means if you get hit with both Cone attacks plus a health steal you're down to 10% and then you're gonna die from her standard attacks while you are running to get your health back.

Speaking of getting your health back

When she stuns you and drains your health focus on 1 of the orbs and draw her to it, then smash it. This will go fast so you've gotta keep your head on a swivel to a degree. Try and land some damage over time attacks on her so YOU don't have to worry about doing damage, the spell will.

THEN IMMEDIATELY

Rush over to the other orbs which should now have clumped up and are away from her. Use your multi target attack or an AOE on them. Bam! Your health is back up! Now while she's catch up to you use any attack you got to put up a damage shield if you have one. Cuz you have probably been standing there too long admiring how great you did at that, that she's gonna use that damn cone attack again.

Now go and beat on her some more doing the circle thing and watch your stamina and magika and health potion timer. This is more of an endurance match than a straight up DPS race.

Speaking of which...

How I beat Tharn:

Keep killing his skeletons and use a DOT on him. He only raises those skeletons one at a time and they don't do a lot of damage in and of themselves its once you get 5 of them you get killed.

Lessons Learned:

What I learned from the beta was that slow and steady wins a lot of the fights in ESO. When I was running around as a nightblade trying to one shot everything or killing everything in a quick furious fight I was getting frustrated because that's how I expected a rogue class to work. In ESO it doesn't seem to work that well on bosses because they are too strong for that *** and their adds tear you to pieces.

Seriously all it takes is patience and a small investment in damage over time effects. (Cuz I know you all got the AOE down) and understanding that going head to head with her isn't wise. Don't treat this game like WoW because it isn't.

ESO and Wildstar pretty much require you to dodge attacks.

Oh and people who have pure builds? I think you are just gonna make yourself miserable. You need stamina to dodge and you need magika to have a resource to fall back on for damage or for support when your stamina runs out.

Oh and the final boss for this was a joke compared to Lyris. I'm not going to insult you by posting tactics for her.

Kingcroft

Tharn came through for me in the end. Basically she got stuck between him and an urn (or something, to tell you the truth I was thrilled to get the easy shots on her) It would have been an endless fight otherwise. The last boss is easy by comparison, silver bolts... silver bolts.

Kendaric

woodall.drewb14_ESO wrote: »

Oh and people who have pure builds? I think you are just gonna make yourself miserable. You need stamina to dodge and you need magika to have a resource to fall back on for damage or for support when your stamina runs out.

Which more or less destroys the "play as you want". A magicka-based character works extremely well, even without investing a single point in stamina. A stamina user, however, is almost always resource starved.
And that, quite frankly, is a problem ZOS will have to adress in some way (lowering dodge/block cost, boosting stamina skills, etc.)

Oh and the final boss for this was a joke compared to Lyris. I'm not going to insult you by posting tactics for her.

Indeed. Which is another problem with the quest in my opinion. The hard part shouldn't be the doppelgangers and yet Lyris is harder than the final opponent in this quest. Tharn is fine as is.

Allyah

Lanatireb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow. just wow. You know, i would prefer not talking to you anymore. While this is a free forum and everyone can post however they want, this is a thread i created. There is obviously nothing you have to contribute to my original post, so, post whatever you want here, but dont respond to me. I prefer talking to people with a minimum amount of courtesy.

I have already contributed to your original post. Several pages ago. I would like to point out that earlier I was responding towards someone else to explain that they misunderstood what another person was saying. You started this conversation with me first. I could be wrong about this but I do believe your last two sentences were much more discourteous than anything I've said. It's a shame you decide what I'm saying from a tone you can't possibly know instead of reading my words and deciding what I'm saying from that. Feel free to imagine what you wish, though. It won't matter to me in the least. <-- (I wonder if more of these were in my other posts if you would have been as offended.)

Kingcroft

steven.flemingub17_ESO wrote: »

I have it, but haven't had it slotted recently; tbh I hadn't found it very useful, but for this I'll give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion!

As for Shadow Cloak I honestly don't understand why Shadow Cloak isn't used more by NB's. It's totally underrated but definitely rocks. For one, it's instant, so you can spam it if need be to stay immune to damage and aggro for as long as you have magika. That can be up to 7.5 seconds or more if you have enough. For another, you can morph it so that DOT's and CC drop off you immediately. Also, you can combine it with Veiled Strike to stun lock your opponent. For example, after you drop the first mob from range you can switch to dual blades, hit Shadow and Veiled Strike the second that ran up to you for 4 seconds of stun if you take Master Assassin. After dropping him you can repeat that cycle again with the third (if necessary). If you also take Shadow Barrier, each time you come out of Shadow you have extra armor on as well. It really is powerful if used right and great if things go downhill and you need a second to change weapons\drink a pot\rethink strategy\etc.

I am glad this came up. Personally I am also surprised; Shadow Cloak is my bread and butter ability, I use a bow... shot go invisible when they get close and use Veiled Strike. I use Shadow Cloak to get distance and to set up a more powerful attack. I was able to kill this doppleganger first try, but she did get hung up in the end.

Apricot

Winnower wrote: »

And this is why nerfing Doshia ends up being a bad idea. Anyone who learned how to easily kill Doshia shouldn't have any problems with this fight.

Sorry but this fight is fundamentally problematic in the same way that Dosia was - it's overtuned and very build specific. Everyone knows to kill the orbs. Everyone knows to kill the orbs.

Allyah

Apricot wrote: »

Winnower wrote: »

And this is why nerfing Doshia ends up being a bad idea. Anyone who learned how to easily kill Doshia shouldn't have any problems with this fight.

Sorry but this fight is fundamentally problematic in the same way that Dosia was - it's overtuned and very build specific.[...]

Build specific? Not really? Can't you just find a strategy that works for your build? I don't know. I came out of these fights understanding my class skills better (not what they do but rather when to use them). Also saying something is over-tuned when the NPC that should be helping you doesn't help seems a little premature.

And Doshia wasn't really hard at all once you knew to destroy the orbs...

Raubrey

Allyah wrote: »

Apricot wrote: »

Winnower wrote: »

And this is why nerfing Doshia ends up being a bad idea. Anyone who learned how to easily kill Doshia shouldn't have any problems with this fight.

Sorry but this fight is fundamentally problematic in the same way that Dosia was - it's overtuned and very build specific.[...]

Build specific? Not really? Can't you just find a strategy that works for your build? I don't know. I came out of these fights understanding my class skills better (not what they do but rather when to use them). Also saying something is over-tuned when the NPC that should be helping you doesn't help seems a little premature.

And Doshia wasn't really hard at all once you knew to destroy the orbs...

You've gotten your point across that you don't agree. How about not muddying up the thread with your repetitive posts and passive aggressive remarks against other posters (yes, you, started the forum pvp pot shots at Lana and anyone who doesn't agree with you).

It is obvious you don't understand the limits of all the otherwise good builds that are problematic. Maybe an AOE skill needs to be added to nightblade (no) or else just tell everyone up front to train for a bow (no). I'm a siphon/2H NB ...now an off-healer as well.

I'm sure all you epic players out there who owned this fight at level 12 have something better to do on a Friday night. I do not, sadly.

The same who also don't understand that other mechanics may come into play be it lag, buggy inconsistent AI etc. may also affect performance (and oh the lucky ones with a stuck doshia) -- and the sheer fact that the fight is not only difficult beyond reason but tremendously non-entertaining...for some people. And if you don't think so...fine that has been made clear, very clear, kill the orbs, clear, gotcha, you owned it. Oakie dokie.

I can say that of 41 people in my guild, maybe 3 would consider this fight reasonable -- though I am speculating about some from past experience, and of the two that said they did it at 30 only one said it was not too hard. No one has said they liked the fight.

Ysne58

I just tried my vet level 1 against Lyris in this quest and still cannot win the battle. So yes....something is wrong with the nightblade build requiring bow to beat this.