With WW providing Major Courage, please add something useful to healers

frogthroat · June 13

We are trying to optimise our group a bit and having a support DD being a WW is pretty handy. Our group heal is ROJO, and I as a kite I can't really use Powerful Assault, so I will wear now...

I have no idea. What should I wear? I can swap SPC to something else, so I don't have anything useful for the body. Pillager has been gutted but since I have nothing else useful, I wear that in my jewelry. Recovery Convergence would be nice but sustain isn't the issue. So basically I can bring... a monster set?

ZOS has been adding a lot of DD sets and a few tank sets. But now with the addition of more DD goodies like WW revamp, us healers are left with even fewer options. Pillager is the last released set that has been useful, until it was absolutely gutted. So currently the last released useful set is Roaring Opportunist from 2020. Healers are now down Pillagers and SPC. We are running out of useful sets. Maybe add something that we can use? I don't say "add anything we can use" because Recovery Convergence is just that -- it's better than nothing. But it's not very inspiring when you have to look for the least useless option instead of the best option.

frogthroat · June 13

And especially now with Warden class mastery, Pearls, that were already nerfed to Oblivion, are completely out of the picture.

Renato90085 · June 13

time to mk/xoryn

frogthroat · June 13

Renato90085 wrote: »

time to mk/xoryn

MK is situational and doesn't work for kite healer that well. I did use that in SS HM with MA.

Xoryn's "Masterpiece" (pretty sure the name is sarcastic) is one of those "I got nothing else to use" sets. If it would bring at least 258 weapon and spell power, it might be not as useless, but less than 2k resources is... well, it's not nothing. Further showing that we need proper healer sets. I don't like that I need to choose which slightly better than not wearing set pieces should I wear.

Treeshka · June 13

Which raid is this?

Gabriel_H · June 13

frogthroat wrote: »

Healers are now down Pillagers and SPC.

So, you mean healers are no longer locked into being buff bots and can actually spec to improve the thing they do provide - healing?!#jealous

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint. Healers provide healing, that's the only thing they should be required to provide. Anything on top of that should be viewed as a bonus not a must have.

Renato90085 · June 13

frogthroat wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

time to mk/xoryn

MK is situational and doesn't work for kite healer that well. I did use that in SS HM with MA.

Xoryn's "Masterpiece" (pretty sure the name is sarcastic) is one of those "I got nothing else to use" sets. If it would bring at least 258 weapon and spell power, it might be not as useless, but less than 2k resources is... well, it's not nothing. Further showing that we need proper healer sets. I don't like that I need to choose which slightly better than not wearing set pieces should I wear.

or try rojo healer go kite and run pp/pa with cryptcanon? i not sure
yesterday we optimise our oc trifecta core too,and notic we can give up spc/sax/horn and any ult gen
because warden and arc healer/werewolf dps can give Major heroism /Courage and Force to95%+ work time

Soarora · June 13

What’s the problem with pillagers? I’d ask if it’s because of signet but surely if anything, more ult gen would be useful for letting signet users actually use their ult. Depending on the content, you could try to make sluthrug’s hunger work.

I am seconding wondering which trial this is, though. Cloudrest, for instance, the KH shouldn’t actually be far from group. AS would be weird, though you could try taking a page from AS’ book and hybrid dps-healer.

frogthroat · June 13

Thanks for all the tips. It's nice when the community tries to be helpful. But we'll manage. No worries there. Not asking for suggestions for existing sets, that's not the point.

The point is that even in these valid suggestions, the options are limited. There's not much healers can bring now. It's bleak times for healers. Raw healing has not been needed that much in ages. There are a few heal checks, like at Lokke tombs, vSE tombs, CR execute. But besides those there's not that much need for raw healing.

Pearls are nerfed, Pillager is nerfed, SPC has been made redundant. The only untouched is ROJO and I am sure that instead of bringing new, interesting healer sets, they'll nerf ROJO next.

peacenote · June 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Healers are now down Pillagers and SPC.

So, you mean healers are no longer locked into being buff bots and can actually spec to improve the thing they do provide - healing?!#jealous

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint. Healers provide healing, that's the only thing they should be required to provide. Anything on top of that should be viewed as a bonus not a must have.

Not sure I agree. I have been a healer main my whole ESO career (which is since beta) and... having straight up healing be your "only" value is... boring. Really, really boring. Especially in fights that are more about mechanics and there are limited chances to "save" people from death. My favorite thing about the healing role and being a support in general is when I am doing a lot of different things. Keep up a few buffs. Be in the ulti rotation. Coordinate gear and enchants. Provide synergies. Purge. Oh, and heal. JUST healing is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Plus, in easier content, due to scope creep, JUST healing does not provide enough value to the group, which is why you see a lot of one tank/3 dps groups. As a healer I don't want to see things go MORE in that direction!

I liked tracking my major courage buff for the group. It made me feel useful. I'm kinda jealous another role is getting it. Like all metas, it can be fun to change things up and SPC / Major Courage has been required for healers for a LOOOONNNG time. So it would be fun if there were new multiple potential "must have" or "yea this will really help because we are missing x" options instead of SPC for organized groups... but it's a lot less fun if the discussion is "Well, I guess you can bring this. <shrug> Whatever." Recently I was asked to bring The Blind monster set for a fight and it was pathetically exciting to have something else to try and swap in besides Symphony or Oz. Supports are supposed to have a bunch of gear to help the teams hone situations. That's what we do. I love it so much more than the DPS rotation game. But there has to be gear out there that provides something everything else doesn't for that to be the case.

It seems like with the Class Mastery stuff that there is actually the opportunity for more group comp discussions and I was reading that there may be less pure parsing DPS and more strategy to "this DPS with this Class will help us all do this." And that's awesome. So it's a step backwards to not have new, cool, unique sets that the healers can have to feel useful to the group.

We've also had the problem for a while now where our toolsets kept getting nerfed because of PvP. Can't drop more than one Healing Springs. Earthgore nerfed to oblivion. Breath of Life no longer a 360 heal. Peals being nerfed, as already mentioned. So many little things that have eaten away at our usefulness and flexibility.

In dungeons, I will sometimes try to bring hybrid builds and add to the damage, but in trials, the gap is SO large between what I can do and what the damage dealers can do that it feels lame. I'd rather buff everyone else's damage than try to increase my little damage by 5% at the bottom of the DPS meter because I have nothing else to offer in between heals.

I guess I'm saying I agree with the OP. I've never felt like a buff bot when I've been asked to bring buffs. More than anything, to me, it is the thing healers do in rotation instead of applying dots like DPS do. It makes sense to me for that to be part of our "thing."

Varana · June 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Healers are now down Pillagers and SPC.

So, you mean healers are no longer locked into being buff bots and can actually spec to improve the thing they do provide - healing?!#jealous

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint. Healers provide healing, that's the only thing they should be required to provide. Anything on top of that should be viewed as a bonus not a must have.

I find that ... very baffling and borderline insulting. Do you play healers?

No one needs that much healing. Current levels are fine with what we have. And older content doesn't suddenly start demanding more healing. If healers should only heal, then you need to ensure that their contribution is actually necessary. Not only in future content but also in existing one.

Also, that takes away much of what is interesting about playing a healer. Do you actually play one?

That healers should only heal, really misses the point of what the role is about.
Do you think tanks should only spec into mitigation and selfishness, without group utility?
DDs shouldn't use class masteries that buff other people's damage, or use Zen, or things like that?

Is this bait or what?

Gabriel_H · June 13

Varana wrote: »

That healers should only heal, really misses the point of what the role is about.
Do you think tanks should only spec into mitigation and selfishness, without group utility?
DDs shouldn't use class masteries that buff other people's damage, or use Zen, or things like that?

Healers should provide healing, that doesn't mean that is all they do. Positioning, timing, resource management are also healing - because you can't heal well without those things. For example, a lot of what a healer does requires precise resource management, yet healers are dissuaded from speccing sustain because sustain on a healer doesn't mean bigger damage numbers for the DDs.

Yes, absolutely 100%. To quote a famous content creator: "Tanking is about providing buffs to your group". No, it isn't. Tanking is about speccing so that you can survive the hit, next comes control of the mobs and debuffing them (something which ESO provides a combined skill for that is these days overlooked), then comes positioning of the mobs and stacking them allowing for cleave damage to be done to greater effect, and ensuring the group isn't taking unnecessary damage, then comes providing buffs. You see the first 3 things I just named ARE group utility. The problem with players is they only recognise group utility when they see it on their buff bar.

As for DDs, they should spec and ensure their skill level is high enough to get their dps at the level required for the content. I've seen DDs who output over 70k dps in content denied a spot in a vSS run - a DD only needs ~45k dps to get a vSS trifecta.

Group utility is more than just buffs. There are fights that are made infinitely harder than they need to be by players because they focus on the damage buffs, rather than letting tanks and healers spec for the job at hand and it is killing end-game for a lot of players.

Side Note: On selfishness. If an experienced tank is telling you that speccing for better mitigation will make the fight easier, in what way is that selfish? Ever tried to kill a hardmode boss with a dead tank? It's pretty tricky.

Renato90085 · June 13

Gabriel_H wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Healers are now down Pillagers and SPC.

So, you mean healers are no longer locked into being buff bots and can actually spec to improve the thing they do provide - healing?!#jealous

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint. Healers provide healing, that's the only thing they should be required to provide. Anything on top of that should be viewed as a bonus not a must have.

because game is not any content really need healers to truly give up buffs to pull more heal…?
run heal gear maybe can give your hps in log do more hps 5-10k..
But it not different,you can run any dps gear like null arca and group still can all survive in hardest content too
so it not optimise,player just nothing can/worth run
you are tank main, but you don’t tell a tank if you not have gear can run,so he should stack armor to 40k+

SolarRune · June 13

I'm finding the requirement for pureclass very boring already - basic setups I'm seeing are MA/PA and MA/Pillager - bascially because theres nothing else and because with the warden class mastery the ulti gen is high (await for the nerf there like when it was high in subclassing!!). Whilst between classes there is variability, there are very few options within the classes themselves - back to shuffling the odd guild skill or scribed skill in/out, to me it feels like healers have gone back to the bad old days of nothing that really provides build variety or engaging gameplay for healers, and to get into groups you have to be a particular class. Subclassed just can't provide the buffs so isn't wanted (at least in my experience)

Some will claim there are loads of sets, but i'm just getting laughed at suggesting them, holding out hope that there will be some adjustment in u51.

BardokRedSnow · June 13

Saying healers should only need to worry about healing is like saying tanks should only have to worry about holding block. If thats all they did I wouldn't find it more interesting than dps. Dps just having to dps and not stand in stupid is why I never got into it, its so boring.

So I sympathize with healers here, they've been in a rough spot for a while but are especially now. On pvp side theres a lot of damage from dk and werewolf right now, class masteries dont make the difference for them so its a learning curve for the group, you need to especially guard your healer now.

I don't think thats a bad thing but I get the frustration. That said I enjoy my duo being a pure warden healer for the extra utility, charmed is so broken and op lol, love having it on our side, and the ult gen from major heroism on demand is fantastic.

Not having to slot spc is nice though because it opens up a slot for other sets like robes of transmutation, or just a sustain set like wretched vitality, which tbh in this meta you need your healer to be more focused on staying alive than buffing the team.

Soarora · June 13

I guess I will say that I do think that the new trial desperately needs an interesting healer set and I do understand that it’s currently a rough time for healers because of pearls becoming obsolete. I just don’t really think ww giving major courage is a problem, I don’t recall finding one-bar SPC to be an engaging minigame. It was just something that I did. Maybe I did it poorly, who knows.

I’m holding out hope that the warden refresh adds some sort of class mechanic for healers. I used to be a warden healer main and I found it incredibly boring. Peep my signature lol.

WuffyCerulei · June 13

Definitely feel like a lot of the older healer sets need a rework or buff. There's so many old sets like the crafted Eyes of Mara and dungeons sets like Combat Physician or Prayer Shawl that are either unused or barely used.

DestroyerPewnack · June 13

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Definitely feel like a lot of the older healer sets need a rework or buff. There's so many old sets like the crafted Eyes of Mara and dungeons sets like Combat Physician or Prayer Shawl that are either unused or barely used.

Agreed. And not just healer sets. There are over 600 unique item sets in the game, and we all only use a handful. I wish they would stop introducing new sets to the game, and just work on buffing and changing older sets. Even if they make some sets extremely situational, it would give us a reason to farm them and try them out. Instead, the majority of these sets are just poor substitutes for meta or crafted sets that aren't even that difficult to get, or completely useless.

CalamityCat · June 13

I think it's like with most classes right now. We're at the start of a lot of class and potentially other weapon refreshes, so there could be more improvements for healers as that progresses. The Warden refresh might give us a better idea of the overall plan, but I'm sticking with most of my existing gear and I'll just adjust builds as the changes arrive. Fortunately I don't do vet trials and score pushing, so I have no plans to make drastic changes.

Healer's Haven seem to have some new build ideas in their Discord if that helps

I don't really think it's awful if courage is available on the WW now, because there are still likely to be times when nobody wants to run a WW.

Real tanks and healers aren't that common, especially the capable ones. So at some point I think ZOS will have to give us some improvements or we won't be available for the harder content that comes out in future. Healing isn't the most appreciated role, so I think it does need to be enjoyable and challenging.

frogthroat · June 13

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Definitely feel like a lot of the older healer sets need a rework or buff. There's so many old sets like the crafted Eyes of Mara and dungeons sets like Combat Physician or Prayer Shawl that are either unused or barely used.

That's a whole other can of worms. There should be an overhaul of all the older sets, not just healer sets. Something like what Skinny Cheeks already played around with in his video. (I mean, Skinny already rebalanced so much on paper, ZOS could just hire him for this overhaul.)

Most sets are just fillers. But as ZOS has made itself a task to keep churning out new sets, something new and usable for healers would be nice.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 14

Time to un nerf Pillagers. It never should have been nerfed in the first place. Aside from that, its nice to actually get some true freedom as a Healer. For once we can choose and there really isn't a wrong answer. Our main focus should be restoring health, not compensating for a lack of sufficient dps. I wouldn't mind seeing some new healing sets or improvements to existing ones, provided they dont end up mandatory in groups. Which is another way of saying, you will get gatekept if you're not wearing x and x. I have been a healer since day 1. It is the reason I play this game more than anything.

Gabriel_H · June 14

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Saying healers should only need to worry about healing is like saying tanks should only have to worry about holding block. If thats all they did I wouldn't find it more interesting than dps. Dps just having to dps and not stand in stupid is why I never got into it, its so boring.

Then you are missing the point entirely.

Healing isn't just one thing. It's a complex interplay of skills, timing, positioning and resource management.

Tanking isn't just one thing. It's a complex interplay of skills, timing, positioning and resource management.

Dps isn't just one thing. It's a complex interplay of skills, timing, positioning and resource management.

At present both healers and tanks are expected to spec sets that boost damage numbers, not help them with their own roles, because they are seen as: "tanks only need to block" and "healers only to cast combat prayer". They are treated as buff bots - heck, they are referred to commonly as "support roles". They are not support roles. They are as essential to a quick successful run as DDs are.

Removing the need for them to be buff bots, opens them up to new possibilities that focus on their core roles. The prime example of the current state of things is both tanks and healers in end-game will end up wearing Powerful Assault at some point - A PvP medium armour set. While they only spec the weapons due to the armour's weight, it stands out as an example of how the core role is being ignored in favour of boosting damage numbers, not tanking or healing.

Soarora · June 14

Gabriel_H wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Saying healers should only need to worry about healing is like saying tanks should only have to worry about holding block. If thats all they did I wouldn't find it more interesting than dps. Dps just having to dps and not stand in stupid is why I never got into it, its so boring.

Then you are missing the point entirely.

Healing isn't just one thing. It's a complex interplay of skills, timing, positioning and resource management.

Tanking isn't just one thing. It's a complex interplay of skills, timing, positioning and resource management.

Dps isn't just one thing. It's a complex interplay of skills, timing, positioning and resource management.

At present both healers and tanks are expected to spec sets that boost damage numbers, not help them with their own roles, because they are seen as: "tanks only need to block" and "healers only to cast combat prayer". They are treated as buff bots - heck, they are referred to commonly as "support roles". They are not support roles. They are as essential to a quick successful run as DDs are.

Removing the need for them to be buff bots, opens them up to new possibilities that focus on their core roles. The prime example of the current state of things is both tanks and healers in end-game will end up wearing Powerful Assault at some point - A PvP medium armour set. While they only spec the weapons due to the armour's weight, it stands out as an example of how the core role is being ignored in favour of boosting damage numbers, not tanking or healing.

Powerful assault does in fact help a healer heal better, though. It gives them more spell damage to heal with. For tanks, well, PA ends up on the OT more often than MT as far as I’m aware and the OT needs something to do because they don’t even always have an enemy to hold. For a tank set that does buff damage but also assist in their role, lucent echoes gives tanks a damage reduction bonus at low health. What is not helpful is a set like winter’s respite, which just adds another heal AoE, or leeching plate, most situations don’t need a tank to heal themselves that much— let alone the boss moving out of the AoE. I get what you’re saying that tanks and healers don’t use selfish sets but parse dps get to just boost their own damage but the way the game is just has it be flat out unnecessary for healers and tanks to be “selfish”. Maybe in a world where tanks took way more damage and healers gave buffs depending on how much they overheal a second (or if damage on dps was super high as well) but not in the world we have right now.

Gabriel_H · June 14

Soarora wrote: »

Powerful assault does in fact help a healer heal better, though. It gives them more spell damage to heal with.

Then put it on a DD, it is after all a medium set.

alpha_synuclein · June 14

Gabriel_H wrote: »

So, you mean healers are no longer locked into being buff bots and can actually spec to improve the thing they do provide - healing?!#jealous

Honestly, I don't understand the complaint. Healers provide healing, that's the only thing they should be required to provide. Anything on top of that should be viewed as a bonus not a must have.

Buffing spell damage buffs your healing. Increasing crit chance also applied to heals. The choice here is not either buff damage or buff healing. It's between buffing either just healing or both.

Healers need to focus solely on healing only if they are solo heals. And you still can do that in MK.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

a DD only needs ~45k dps to get a vSS trifecta.

If you like to *** against the wind xd

alpha_synuclein · June 14

frogthroat wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

time to mk/xoryn

MK is situational and doesn't work for kite healer that well. I did use that in SS HM with MA.

Xoryn's "Masterpiece" (pretty sure the name is sarcastic) is one of those "I got nothing else to use" sets. If it would bring at least 258 weapon and spell power, it might be not as useless, but less than 2k resources is... well, it's not nothing. Further showing that we need proper healer sets. I don't like that I need to choose which slightly better than not wearing set pieces should I wear.

And we still don't know which trial

But you're right, we could use some new interesting sets. Although I have a feeling that the Heroism mastery won't last long...

frogthroat · June 14

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

And we still don't know which trial

Not sure how that's relevant. Which trial, if I do it, will bring new sets into the game for everyone? The issue was not, is not and will not be whatever content I am currently doing. It is the overall lack of useful healer sets.

Gabriel_H · June 14

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Buffing spell damage buffs your healing. Increasing crit chance also applied to heals. The choice here is not either buff damage or buff healing. It's between buffing either just healing or both.

There are better options. PA adds about 3% to the power of the heal. Sanctuary adds about 10%.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

If you like to *** against the wind xd

No, period.

Gabriel_H · June 14

frogthroat wrote: »

It is the overall lack of useful healer sets.

Define "useful".

I'm not saying healers don't need some new sets, but there are a ton of useful sets for healing without buffing the group. Healers aren't in danger of losing group or trial spots.

alpha_synuclein · June 14

Gabriel_H wrote: »

There are better options. PA adds about 3% to the power of the heal. Sanctuary adds about 10%.

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

If you like to *** against the wind xd

No, period.

You can hit enough hps without a single set that buffs healing. I'm playing healer for several years now and I honestly cannot name a trial where I would choose Sanctuary over PA. If you are maintaining your Hots and spamming burst heals when needed you will have enough healing power. And if you don't most healer sets won't help you.

Edit cuz bad quote.

alpha_synuclein · June 14

frogthroat wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

And we still don't know which trial

Not sure how that's relevant. Which trial, if I do it, will bring new sets into the game for everyone? The issue was not, is not and will not be whatever content I am currently doing. It is the overall lack of useful healer sets.

It's not relevant. Just curiosity.