Vengeance has officially ended the THREE BANNERS WAR

alternatelder

React wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there are shady people playing the game. But to say ball groups hope for lag so they can take advantage of people is just ridiculous. Balls groups die fast if the can't cast skills. Just like everyone else.

I don't think groups are purposefully causing lag, or attempting to cause lag in order to gain some benefit for themselves over their opponents. That's just silly.

But they are 100% undoubtedly the first and foremost cause of prime time PVP lag. Nearly every night I've played over the past few years, it becomes immediately clear when the ball groups log in and begin playing. You can genuinely feel it.

Further, zenimax themselves did firmly confirm that ball groups are the cause of the performance issues. Back during one of their early performance tests maybe 4-6 years ago (I think the AOE cooldown test or perhaps the cross healing test), they did share their "results" after finishing. They cited that the behaviors of certain groups stacking together and rapidly refreshing their buffs and heals was something they had not anticipated when designing ESO, and was the number one thing impacting performance.

While I agree many posters are going overboard with their suggestions that groups are maliciously causing the performance issues for their own gain, they aren't wrong that the groups are in fact the primary cause of the lag.

I don't necessarily agree all ball groups cause lag on purpose, but everyone I knew that discussed this years ago had the same experience with poor performance around them. I do know there was a well known group on DC PS that used a lag switch, (yes, it absolutely was possible before) and many of us would lag severely and either crash or just freeze up when they arrived. I do not believe they all do this, but it is possible these type of people are still playing and utilizing the same tools.

YandereGirlfriend

React wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there are shady people playing the game. But to say ball groups hope for lag so they can take advantage of people is just ridiculous. Balls groups die fast if the can't cast skills. Just like everyone else.

I don't think groups are purposefully causing lag, or attempting to cause lag in order to gain some benefit for themselves over their opponents. That's just silly.

But they are 100% undoubtedly the first and foremost cause of prime time PVP lag. Nearly every night I've played over the past few years, it becomes immediately clear when the ball groups log in and begin playing. You can genuinely feel it.

Further, zenimax themselves did firmly confirm that ball groups are the cause of the performance issues. Back during one of their early performance tests maybe 4-6 years ago (I think the AOE cooldown test or perhaps the cross healing test), they did share their "results" after finishing. They cited that the behaviors of certain groups stacking together and rapidly refreshing their buffs and heals was something they had not anticipated when designing ESO, and was the number one thing impacting performance.

While I agree many posters are going overboard with their suggestions that groups are maliciously causing the performance issues for their own gain, they aren't wrong that the groups are in fact the primary cause of the lag.

It is certainly a cause but it definitely isn't THE cause and anyone holding it up as like the Holy Gail of performance are deluding themselves.

The entire game is likely built upon a code base house of cards with inefficient logic for most of the game's core systems. Perhaps that is most exposed in Cyrodiil but it applies to all content. I have been in tons of trials and dungeons with simultaneous player crashes, random kicks, massive input delay, lag, rubber-banding, mechanics not animating, etc. And those aren't even like 1%'er trifecta sweat groups with 100+APM. That is just normal players playing the game.

ZOS needs to commit to re-writing that that code rather than stripping away entire game systems or playstyles. Otherwise, they are only temporarily masking the symptoms (which WILL return, as technical debt always does) rather than treating the actual disease.

Dimorphos

Maybe someone already set this straight but... Do you people realize that vengeance campaign is part of a larger testing and a problem solving "tool". It is not meant to be permanent. They have said this many times in written text and in streams.

It is a way to collect data about what is negatively effecting the gameplay and how to fix things. They have said this many times. Never-ever have they said or given even any hints that it would become a permanent pvp mode.

Yet you people complain about it quite a lot. Can you read or listen? Do you even? Or you just like to complain?

I am all about giving constructive feedback, complaining when things are not right etc. when it is clearly justified. But you all are complaining about a system that is there only for momentarily to collect data to solve problems.. Amazing.

Four_Fingers

Stop blaming ball groups for causing lag by using skills provided by the game when the problem is an engine, net code and server that can't handle the load, not to mention too many effects causing frame drop at the client.

aetherix8

Dimorphos wrote: »

Maybe someone already set this straight but... Do you people realize that vengeance campaign is part of a larger testing and a problem solving "tool". It is not meant to be permanent. They have said this many times in written text and in streams.

It is a way to collect data about what is negatively effecting the gameplay and how to fix things. They have said this many times. Never-ever have they said or given even any hints that it would become a permanent pvp mode.

Yet you people complain about it quite a lot. Can you read or listen? Do you even? Or you just like to complain?

I am all about giving constructive feedback, complaining when things are not right etc. when it is clearly justified. But you all are complaining about a system that is there only for momentarily to collect data to solve problems.. Amazing.

When it comes to Vengeance people scan posts fast, or only look at who the post’s author is, and then “read” what they want to read, understand what suits them most, afterwards they come up with some twisted conclusions, like being victims of some nefarious PvEers’ plot, or that anyone who sees potential in Vengeance wants GH deleted.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Stamicka wrote: »

There’s no Golden Pursuit for it and it’s running during the Undaunted event. It could’ve been planned better IMO..

Anyway despite being 0 bars I found more action than I would find in Gray Host at this time of day. If Vengeance is showing 0 bars, it could still very well be more populated than a Gray Host with 2 bars.

I'm in a pvp guild on Grey Host NA PC and inbetween the Undaunted event and the up coming Witches fest, we cut back to once a week in Cryodill to help with game burn out. We have 3 of top exp and loot grinds happening from Sept to late Dec, (Undaunted, Witches and Holiday/New Life), plus the Wall event so it's not surprising that players have slowed down in pvp land.

Stridig

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Stop blaming ball groups for causing lag by using skills provided by the game when the problem is an engine, net code and server that can't handle the load, not to mention too many effects causing frame drop at the client.

It's just easy to blame organized groups. The whole server suffers every night with the 80 person AD faction stack (which is awesome that AD has faction coordination like that) at any given keep, but we'll just blame the 10-12 people who spent time organizing an actual group.

LPapirius

RaikaNA wrote: »

LPapirius wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

LadyGP wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about the video...
First off, vengeance is NOT "The WORST PvP Future of ESO". It is the vanilla version aka GH.

Not even remotely close. Vengeance is an entirely different system no one asked for, being designed and developed by the devs.

PTS Patch Notes v11.2.0
Vengeance
Loadouts are now in Vengeance. A Loadout is essentially a package...
Perks are now in Vengeance. Perks are passives to add...
A new Vengeance Inventory has been created...
Many systems have been turned back on including....
Your standard inventory is now available in Vengeance, however the same item restrictions...

The pvp community for the longest time have been begging the developers to provide new pvp content, and Vengeance is exactly that.. new content. It is an entirely different Cyrodiil map that its worth exploring. It has different set of rules in comparison to the regular GH campaign.

I actually enjoy Vengeance because I don't have to worry about getting bombed and getting zerged down by ball groups.

So you like veng because the devs refused to address pvp balance for 7+ years.. let it get way out of hand.. and then bascially took all skill away from cyro and made it a one size fits all everyone gets a prize style combat loop?

You realize this will continue to have a lower and lower pop to where you're lucky if you get one fight a night... right?

Vengeance actually fixes the PVP balance by removing sets and stack healing. There are no bombers and no ball groups during the Vengeance event. It's actually a refreshing not having to deal with either. Ball groups play a big role in lagging up the server by overloading the server. Ball groups know about this and still exploit the game just so that they can look good on their YouTube channel when they farm pugs and casual groups.

Also, not everyone has the time to test out sets and to theory craft a good PvP build.. so people are coming into Cryodill with sets that are completely garbage that they don't know... How can you have fun with that? So disabling sets gives other people the opportunity to have fun and to have a good PvP experience.

Then again lets have the same in pve. I want to participate trials too, but wont be taken by any serious trial guild unless i hit a 140k dps with certain sets.

Fix that

Nothing is stopping you from participating in trials. Get yourself an Arcanist and go to ESOlogs.com and find out what the current meta for gear/skills,etc. And yeah... if you wanna participate in speed runs or no death runs... yeah, these kinds of groups are gonna be looking for the best. Nothing is stopping you from using group finder to find a regular vet trial. I used to do it all the time, and that's how I got most of my trial skins from using the group finder.

Nothing is preventing you or anyone else from being successful in PvP either. Everyone already has the same resources to work with when it comes to both PvE and PvP. So we don't need vengeance because it's a solution in search of a problem, right?

Okay... so where do casual players who want to get their feet wet go to find good quality PvP builds? Can they go to ESOLOGS to find out what ball groups are using? Or perhaps find out what the solo players are using these days? Please do not link me to some YouTube channel. Content creators publish out crappy builds... trust me I know from personal experience.

Same place the PvE'rs go to find their builds. And a build is only as good as the person playing it.

LPapirius

Dimorphos wrote: »

Maybe someone already set this straight but... Do you people realize that vengeance campaign is part of a larger testing and a problem solving "tool". It is not meant to be permanent. They have said this many times in written text and in streams.

It is a way to collect data about what is negatively effecting the gameplay and how to fix things. They have said this many times. Never-ever have they said or given even any hints that it would become a permanent pvp mode.

Yet you people complain about it quite a lot. Can you read or listen? Do you even? Or you just like to complain?

I am all about giving constructive feedback, complaining when things are not right etc. when it is clearly justified. But you all are complaining about a system that is there only for momentarily to collect data to solve problems.. Amazing.

I've got some beachfront property in Kansas for sale. Best prices you'll find anywhere!

BardokRedSnow

Stridig wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there are shady people playing the game. But to say ball groups hope for lag so they can take advantage of people is just ridiculous. Balls groups die fast if the can't cast skills. Just like everyone else.

It sounds silly to outsiders but these ballgroupers are a lot more cunning than average solo pvpers, hell theyre not even the only ones who take advantage of lag. We used to purposefully use skills like javelin or leap that caused desync to kill people in primetime lag. Take that same logic and apply it to aggressively aoe dumping in large numbers plus using pulls for ult dumping, not just one ball but several at the same time on the same faction.

AD is probably the biggest example of this and if you ask certain people like Crown there under the right circumstances he'll probably tell you that *** himself, if he even still plays anymore, no idea. Again if you play Greyhost primetime NA for any extended amount of time this isnt even up for debate its a fact.

If solo dolos know to use skills that desync players in lag, obviously ballgroupers know they can take advantage of the lag they cause when farming in keeps and outposts. We played this game, cyrodiil specifically for literally over a decade, its not a mystery to anyone but pvers or people that don't play in primetime campaigns during peak locked out pop hours.

Stridig

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there are shady people playing the game. But to say ball groups hope for lag so they can take advantage of people is just ridiculous. Balls groups die fast if the can't cast skills. Just like everyone else.

It sounds silly to outsiders but these ballgroupers are a lot more cunning than average solo pvpers, hell theyre not even the only ones who take advantage of lag. We used to purposefully use skills like javelin or leap that caused desync to kill people in primetime lag. Take that same logic and apply it to aggressively aoe dumping in large numbers plus using pulls for ult dumping, not just one ball but several at the same time on the same faction.

AD is probably the biggest example of this and if you ask certain people like Crown there under the right circumstances he'll probably tell you that *** himself, if he even still plays anymore, no idea. Again if you play Greyhost primetime NA for any extended amount of time this isnt even up for debate its a fact.

If solo dolos know to use skills that desync players in lag, obviously ballgroupers know they can take advantage of the lag they cause when farming in keeps and outposts. We played this game, cyrodiil specifically for literally over a decade, its not a mystery to anyone but pvers or people that don't play in primetime campaigns during peak locked out pop hours.

Yeah. I play prime time GH PC/NA every single day. I've played with you. I'm not an outsider and I'm certainly not new. What I'm saying is it's simply lazy to blame ball groups for the game performance. It's also not even up for debate that deer cause lag in Cyrodiil.

BardokRedSnow

Stridig wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there are shady people playing the game. But to say ball groups hope for lag so they can take advantage of people is just ridiculous. Balls groups die fast if the can't cast skills. Just like everyone else.

It sounds silly to outsiders but these ballgroupers are a lot more cunning than average solo pvpers, hell theyre not even the only ones who take advantage of lag. We used to purposefully use skills like javelin or leap that caused desync to kill people in primetime lag. Take that same logic and apply it to aggressively aoe dumping in large numbers plus using pulls for ult dumping, not just one ball but several at the same time on the same faction.

AD is probably the biggest example of this and if you ask certain people like Crown there under the right circumstances he'll probably tell you that *** himself, if he even still plays anymore, no idea. Again if you play Greyhost primetime NA for any extended amount of time this isnt even up for debate its a fact.

If solo dolos know to use skills that desync players in lag, obviously ballgroupers know they can take advantage of the lag they cause when farming in keeps and outposts. We played this game, cyrodiil specifically for literally over a decade, its not a mystery to anyone but pvers or people that don't play in primetime campaigns during peak locked out pop hours.

Yeah. I play prime time GH PC/NA every single day. I've played with you. I'm not an outsider and I'm certainly not new. What I'm saying is it's simply lazy to blame ball groups for the game performance. It's also not even up for debate that deer cause lag in Cyrodiil.

There's lag, and then there's crashing out half a faction.

xR3ACTORx

fizzybeef wrote: »

Yes you read right.
On PS EU the war is over! I can explain why. Because there is nobody left to play.

Im sure there are people enjoying this game mode, im not here to argue with you. But on the insanely low population PS EU (specially PVP) has anyway, this is just the nail in the coffin.

I was so free to made some screenshots from PS EU Primetime which is now, about 7.30 uk wich is 8.30 eu (pm).




Then i thought, well lets have a look into the leaderboard - how many players are online now, when the whole cyrodiil pvp is BUNDLED in one campaign. Lets have a look:


AD 31 players listed in the leaderboard hours after the servers came online again




DC a whole 25 players listed in the leaderboard hours after the servers came online again




EP 58 players listed in the leaderboard hours after the servers came online again



The people on this server dont want Vengeance. Pvp was never full populated in weeks on this server anyway.
With vengeance you just ended pvp and i dont know how you want to recover the population without a midyear mayhem wich isnt coming before January i believe.

And with all respect zos, the last vengeance the data must of shown you this. Because after the first 3 days last vengeance the bars were all zero aswell.

I just dont understand why this is done to the server and i will not support this and not play this till its over.

Good examination. I also checked the number of total players of each alliance on xbox during vengeance and it was also low as it was on Playstation.

But to be honest after the first vengeance on consoles there was a mid-year mayhem which had the lowest mayhem player count I ever witnessed in all those years.

fizzybeef

When i wrote it ended the three banner wars, this is still up to date btw.

PS EU server did not recover from it.

2 2 1 bars at prime time

Four_Fingers

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there are shady people playing the game. But to say ball groups hope for lag so they can take advantage of people is just ridiculous. Balls groups die fast if the can't cast skills. Just like everyone else.

It sounds silly to outsiders but these ballgroupers are a lot more cunning than average solo pvpers, hell theyre not even the only ones who take advantage of lag. We used to purposefully use skills like javelin or leap that caused desync to kill people in primetime lag. Take that same logic and apply it to aggressively aoe dumping in large numbers plus using pulls for ult dumping, not just one ball but several at the same time on the same faction.

AD is probably the biggest example of this and if you ask certain people like Crown there under the right circumstances he'll probably tell you that *** himself, if he even still plays anymore, no idea. Again if you play Greyhost primetime NA for any extended amount of time this isnt even up for debate its a fact.

If solo dolos know to use skills that desync players in lag, obviously ballgroupers know they can take advantage of the lag they cause when farming in keeps and outposts. We played this game, cyrodiil specifically for literally over a decade, its not a mystery to anyone but pvers or people that don't play in primetime campaigns during peak locked out pop hours.

I remember back in the day on PC NA during the Crown era people spamming healing springs deliberately in mass inside keeps causing lag across the map. So...

BardokRedSnow

Four_Fingers wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there are shady people playing the game. But to say ball groups hope for lag so they can take advantage of people is just ridiculous. Balls groups die fast if the can't cast skills. Just like everyone else.

It sounds silly to outsiders but these ballgroupers are a lot more cunning than average solo pvpers, hell theyre not even the only ones who take advantage of lag. We used to purposefully use skills like javelin or leap that caused desync to kill people in primetime lag. Take that same logic and apply it to aggressively aoe dumping in large numbers plus using pulls for ult dumping, not just one ball but several at the same time on the same faction.

AD is probably the biggest example of this and if you ask certain people like Crown there under the right circumstances he'll probably tell you that *** himself, if he even still plays anymore, no idea. Again if you play Greyhost primetime NA for any extended amount of time this isnt even up for debate its a fact.

If solo dolos know to use skills that desync players in lag, obviously ballgroupers know they can take advantage of the lag they cause when farming in keeps and outposts. We played this game, cyrodiil specifically for literally over a decade, its not a mystery to anyone but pvers or people that don't play in primetime campaigns during peak locked out pop hours.

I remember back in the day on PC NA during the Crown era people spamming healing springs deliberately in mass inside keeps causing lag across the map. So...

Yep, and they never stopped, they just change up the method lol.