“Joining Encounter in Progress” should have a confirmation check

aetherix8

frogthroat wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

A typical speedrunner will click on dungeon finder > specific dungeon > scroll down > queue.

Specific dungeon? In this scenario, what would be the speedrunner's motivation for running the dungeon?

Undaunted keys obv. Also, completing dungeons listed for the current GP. Also, farming gear from a specific dungeon to fill the sticker book.

But ok, let's add the 2nd option:

A typical speedrunner will click on dungeon finder > specific dungeon > scroll down > queue.
A typical speedrunner will click on dungeon finder > random veteran.

tauriel01

Reverb wrote: »

The “Joining Encounter in Progress” port to dungeon bosses should have a confirmation check. Groups should be able to let their speedrunner die alone, without the certainty that their group will port in to help.

With a confirmation check, people who do want to skip the entire dungeon and get pulled from boss to boss can, and people who don’t want to don’t have to.

If the speed runner actually kills the final boss (or any along the way) and other group members are not there (or close enough), they will not get credit. So getting pulled into the encounter is a good thing if you are doing the dungeon to get credit for the kill and get your box. If the speed runner annoys you, you can always just stand there and watch them fight alone.

colossalvoids

Vote to kick man. As if that's gonna made into opt-in I'd imagine many angry posts about being kicked for not participating in boss encounters because quest, chest etc. and being unjustly kicked out, or about lost loot for not being in proximity of a boss kill, quest not triggering and other issues that can happen. It a four man situation, there's always a way to make it work.

frogthroat

aetherix8 wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

A typical speedrunner will click on dungeon finder > specific dungeon > scroll down > queue.

Specific dungeon? In this scenario, what would be the speedrunner's motivation for running the dungeon?

Undaunted keys obv. Also, completing dungeons listed for the current GP. Also, farming gear from a specific dungeon to fill the sticker book.

But ok, let's add the 2nd option:

A typical speedrunner will click on dungeon finder > specific dungeon > scroll down > queue.
A typical speedrunner will click on dungeon finder > random veteran.

Yes, outside of some specific limited time things, I would venture to say the vast majority would be after the transmutes. And those you get from the random dungeons.

AzuraFan

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I still say the last player should be able to do things like chests and lorebooks without getting booted.

Yes 100%! It would solve a lot of the complaints on the forum about speedrunning and such. I understand they don't want instances left up indefinitely, but change it to 15 minutes or something like that, rather than what they have now. It would be such an easy change and let people explore, collect lorebooks, talk to NPCs, maybe even do secret bosses by themselves, after everyone else is gone. It would tide people over until the "it's on our list" story mode.

I've already said I'm okay with the "joining encounter in progress" and that when pugging, you accept what you get. What I find more annoying than speed runners is players who instantly drop group because they queued for a random and got a dungeon they don't want (which seems to happen more often now). Imagine being a DPS, being in the queue for a specific dungeon for half an hour, the queue finally pops, you go in, and somebody drops because it's a DLC dungeon. Then there are players who drop group after the group wipes to a boss. That happens occasionally, and it's funny because 99% of the time the remaining players go on to complete the dungeon. I always wonder what type of person quits so easily. But I don't ask on the forums that players not be allowed to drop group, or that players who drop after a wipe be punished somehow.

When I pug, I know I'm getting three other players whose goals may differ from mine. I've learned to go with the flow. When I pug, I'm not the centre of the universe, and neither are you. If you're getting annoyed because you have a goal in mind and pugs aren't cooperating, you're doing it wrong. Use the group finder or join a guild.

magnusthorek

SilverBride wrote: »

I was in a group yesterday and called out that there was a chest. I unlocked it but was pulled into an encounter in progress before I could loot it. A minute later I saw another chest that I called out but once again I was pulled away before I could loot it

I'm really, really sorry, but that was hilarious

SilverBride

magnusthorek wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I was in a group yesterday and called out that there was a chest. I unlocked it but was pulled into an encounter in progress before I could loot it. A minute later I saw another chest that I called out but once again I was pulled away before I could loot it

I'm really, really sorry, but that was hilarious

Well I can see the humor in it now, even though it was a bit irritating at the time. But in the end I was the only one that got the chest loot so that gave me some satisfaction!

Elsonso

Frayton wrote: »

No because there's a solution to this built in to the game - make your own group.

I disagree with this line of thinking simply because people get bonuses from using the dungeon finder. If too many people run pre-made groups, it gets harder to make PUGs. If the player is doing something specific in the dungeon (ie story), then certainly, do the "make your own" group, but if someone just wants to run a dungeon, the dungeon finder should be the preferred tool.

People running dungeon finder need to hang towards the average and stay with the group. The "stop and smell the flowers" person needs to pick up the pace and stay with the group, while the "I need to get this dungeon done in 60 seconds or less because I have things to do" person needs to slow it down and hang with the group.

My biggest problem with "joining encounter" is that it will pull me in, with the associated black transition screen, while I am right there with the boss. Rather than attacking, I am sitting around waiting while it teleports me to where I already was. This is likely due to the radius around the boss being too small, and I am a quarter inch too far away but it happens quite often.

And yes, the instance should remain open after the activity is complete for 2x or 3x what it is now. This would allow looting the place.

CalamityCat

Allowing a single player the opportunity to control the speed of a dungeon group was always going to lead to problems.

In the past I've said that I'd prefer if the majority needed to be present to start a boss fight pull. I'd be happy with that.

But I'd be happier if we had a settling to just ignore these pulls entirely. I'm fed up of useless fake tanks/healers rushing the group into a fight, dying to the boss repeatedly and expecting the two competent players to do all the work for them. I only tend to do dungeons now to get my alts through the quest and often I'll just solo them.

It would be good to have a button we can hit to rejoin the group say if we get stuck or stopped to loot a chest or whatever and want to catch up quickly. But the whole pull to boss thing is a mess IMHO.

Æthërnüm

ZOS implement a good feature => random slow pug complains that he can't loot a useless chest inside of vanilla dungeon (while run-repeat gives more stuff from this dungeon).

Logic, where are you?

Quests? go solo normal and enjoy questing along with your very useful companion.

MasterSpatula

Frayton wrote: »

scrappy1342 wrote: »

"they can make their own group" goes both ways.

True but speedrunners aren't the ones constantly complaining and making posts here about people who go too slow.

A. They're the bad guys. The entire point of rewards for random dungeons is to get people into the queue so that those who need to do certain content can find people to do it with. Viewing the rewards as the sole point of doing randoms and thus disregarding the entire purpose you're there to fulfill is a short-sighted, self-involved, thoughtless way to behave.

B. The system favors them. See a chest? Ported away before you can loot it. Need to do dialogue on a base-game dungeon? Ported away before you can do so. Feel like skipping mobs is cheap and failing to actually engage with the content? Doesn't matter if three of you feel that way. All it takes is one person who only values speed. That one gets their way every. Single. Time.

What does a bad guy who's winning have to complain about?

It's amazing to me how many people have forgotten this or just don't care, but you're being rewarded for helping people. HELP THEM.

Jaimeh

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

No thank you.

I believe that if you wish to stroll through the dungeon to loot, admire the scenery or do the story and be guaranteed to complete it, you should make your own group.

I never expect people in random group finder to listen to me or care if I need something.

That's a bit extreme... I don't think someone should expect others to wait for them to do something like a proper story mode either, but for things like quest objectives and chest looting, people should wait, it takes only a few seconds, and we've all been new players who did a dungeon for the first time or farmed gear... Like today, someone had the quest in Tempest Island, and I was killing the lamias at the beach for them, because everyone had moved on and the objective there is that the beach should be cleared for the NPC to give out the next step. The player had even said they had the quest yet everyone rushed past even if it's literally 5 seconds to spare. If players can't spare a few seconds for others in the game then why play a social game in the first place...

Vonnegut2506

The last couple days speed runners have actually made the dungeon take longer than necessary. In FG2, they killed the spider boss then immediately headed for the final boss without realizing that you have to go through the door and kill the shadow boss first. So a ton of backtracking for the two people that were following the speed runner. I was the healer, so I just waited at the door for them to come back.

Then in CoA they ran through the big flame atronach area without bothering to kill it, so they couldn't open the door to the final boss. More backtracking so they could kill it and proceed with the final boss. I couldn't wait for this one because I got pulled to the boss just outside the door. So the entire group had to backtrack rather than just take the 30 seconds that it required to kill the boss in the first place.

Speed runners absolutely make the experience worse for the other people in the group, and the joining in progress function just allows them to do it. Creating hypothetical dungeon runners who are going at glacial speed to try and defend poor behavior is just asinine.

Æthërnüm

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

The last couple days speed runners have actually made the dungeon take longer than necessary. In FG2, they killed the spider boss then immediately headed for the final boss without realizing that you have to go through the door and kill the shadow boss first. So a ton of backtracking for the two people that were following the speed runner. I was the healer, so I just waited at the door for them to come back.

Then in CoA they ran through the big flame atronach area without bothering to kill it, so they couldn't open the door to the final boss. More backtracking so they could kill it and proceed with the final boss. I couldn't wait for this one because I got pulled to the boss just outside the door. So the entire group had to backtrack rather than just take the 30 seconds that it required to kill the boss in the first place.

Speed runners absolutely make the experience worse for the other people in the group, and the joining in progress function just allows them to do it. Creating hypothetical dungeon runners who are going at glacial speed to try and defend poor behavior is just asinine.

this is lowiqs, bud, trust me, i go vanilla dungeons aqap and do not skip neccessary bosses.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Reverb wrote: »

The “Joining Encounter in Progress” port to dungeon bosses should have a confirmation check. Groups should be able to let their speedrunner die alone, without the certainty that their group will port in to help.

With a confirmation check, people who do want to skip the entire dungeon and get pulled from boss to boss can, and people who don’t want to don’t have to.

+1, I would also like to see this.

Orbital78

I enjoy speedrunning/runners for the most part as long as their name isn't QQ123randomnumbers and don't communicate or speak at all. The issue for me is when the speedrunners have 17k hp, low dps, low knowledge of the game and don't kill the majority of the stuff in bottle necks and such. As someone who has run most of the base game dungeons 100s of times, I for the most part know where questers need to stop and update and will usually give them a chance to do so. Less so if it is on vet, as I expect most players to do that in normals.

There has been an increase in low skill players expecting a carry, just because I have mediocre dps, CPs, and probably can solo the dungeon doesn't mean I want to carry random people I don't know and will likely never see again (sometimes that is hopeful). In the end I know that this is a random group of fools, most of which are just trying to get the dungeon knocked out. As Nefas said, go into pugs with no expectations. I always reserve the right to leave at any point I find it to not be fun.

Soarora

The chest situation is bad but if we’re going to do a confirmation check it should be uncancelable. Get pulled in immediately or choose to have 10 seconds before getting pulled in. One person running around 5 rooms back trying to solo a side boss they made no effort to share they wanted to do or looting every corner of the dungeon is just as annoying as one person running ahead.

DenverRalphy

frogthroat wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

A typical speedrunner will click on dungeon finder > specific dungeon > scroll down > queue.

Specific dungeon? In this scenario, what would be the speedrunner's motivation for running the dungeon?

Undaunted Pledges. That aside.. their entire premise is a bunch of hooey anyway.

Ragnarok0130

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

scrappy1342 wrote: »

"they can make their own group" goes both ways.

True but speedrunners aren't the ones constantly complaining and making posts here about people who go too slow.

A. They're the bad guys. The entire point of rewards for random dungeons is to get people into the queue so that those who need to do certain content can find people to do it with. Viewing the rewards as the sole point of doing randoms and thus disregarding the entire purpose you're there to fulfill is a short-sighted, self-involved, thoughtless way to behave.

B. The system favors them. See a chest? Ported away before you can loot it. Need to do dialogue on a base-game dungeon? Ported away before you can do so. Feel like skipping mobs is cheap and failing to actually engage with the content? Doesn't matter if three of you feel that way. All it takes is one person who only values speed. That one gets their way every. Single. Time.

What does a bad guy who's winning have to complain about?

It's amazing to me how many people have forgotten this or just don't care, but you're being rewarded for helping people. HELP THEM.

Negative, the bad guy is the person who needs to do the quest but doesn't speak up like an adult in group chat telling the group members that he needs to do the quest and then gets so bent out of shape when people just complete the content that he rage posts on the forums about speed runners.

The game's been out for 11 years so people assume the others are doing the run for transmutes or gear unless someone says they're doing the quest when we start. Notice this doesn't happen when a new dungeon comes out since it's assumed that people are doing the quest until the dungeon has been out for a while.

DenverRalphy

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

scrappy1342 wrote: »

"they can make their own group" goes both ways.

True but speedrunners aren't the ones constantly complaining and making posts here about people who go too slow.

A. They're the bad guys. The entire point of rewards for random dungeons is to get people into the queue so that those who need to do certain content can find people to do it with. Viewing the rewards as the sole point of doing randoms and thus disregarding the entire purpose you're there to fulfill is a short-sighted, self-involved, thoughtless way to behave.

B. The system favors them. See a chest? Ported away before you can loot it. Need to do dialogue on a base-game dungeon? Ported away before you can do so. Feel like skipping mobs is cheap and failing to actually engage with the content? Doesn't matter if three of you feel that way. All it takes is one person who only values speed. That one gets their way every. Single. Time.

What does a bad guy who's winning have to complain about?

It's amazing to me how many people have forgotten this or just don't care, but you're being rewarded for helping people. HELP THEM.

Negative, the bad guy is the person who needs to do the quest but doesn't speak up like an adult in group chat telling the group members that he needs to do the quest and then gets so bent out of shape when people just complete the content that he rage posts on the forums about speed runners.

The game's been out for 11 years so people assume the others are doing the run for transmutes or gear unless someone says they're doing the quest when we start. Notice this doesn't happen when a new dungeon comes out since it's assumed that people are doing the quest until the dungeon has been out for a while.

Because it never happens whenever a quest holder does speak up right?

Vonnegut2506

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

scrappy1342 wrote: »

"they can make their own group" goes both ways.

True but speedrunners aren't the ones constantly complaining and making posts here about people who go too slow.

A. They're the bad guys. The entire point of rewards for random dungeons is to get people into the queue so that those who need to do certain content can find people to do it with. Viewing the rewards as the sole point of doing randoms and thus disregarding the entire purpose you're there to fulfill is a short-sighted, self-involved, thoughtless way to behave.

B. The system favors them. See a chest? Ported away before you can loot it. Need to do dialogue on a base-game dungeon? Ported away before you can do so. Feel like skipping mobs is cheap and failing to actually engage with the content? Doesn't matter if three of you feel that way. All it takes is one person who only values speed. That one gets their way every. Single. Time.

What does a bad guy who's winning have to complain about?

It's amazing to me how many people have forgotten this or just don't care, but you're being rewarded for helping people. HELP THEM.

Negative, the bad guy is the person who needs to do the quest but doesn't speak up like an adult in group chat telling the group members that he needs to do the quest and then gets so bent out of shape when people just complete the content that he rage posts on the forums about speed runners.

The game's been out for 11 years so people assume the others are doing the run for transmutes or gear unless someone says they're doing the quest when we start. Notice this doesn't happen when a new dungeon comes out since it's assumed that people are doing the quest until the dungeon has been out for a while.

You realize if you had just read seven posts before yours Jaimeh pointed out that someone did, in fact, speak up in chat they were doing the quest and was promptly ignored. During the event, I have said I was doing the quest twice and was ignored both times. I can "speak up like an adult in group chat," but that doesn't mean the speed runner is going to act like an adult.

AzuraFan

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

You realize if you had just read seven posts before yours Jaimeh pointed out that someone did, in fact, speak up in chat they were doing the quest and was promptly ignored. During the event, I have said I was doing the quest twice and was ignored both times. I can "speak up like an adult in group chat," but that doesn't mean the speed runner is going to act like an adult.

Wanting to do the quest during the event is just a bad idea. A lot of people are running dungeons to get to the end and get the event box. It's probably the worst time to say, "Hey, I'm here for the quest." It's a "read the room" situation. To me, it's obvious that wanting to do anything but zoom through a dungeon while the undaunted event is on is going to be wishful thinking most of the time. For anyone trying to do this, wait until the event ends to do your quests and you'll hopefully find that it will be easier then.

(Right now, I honestly shake my head in amazement that some players are surprised or upset because people want to get through dungeons as quickly as possible during the undaunted event.)

valenwood_vegan

AzuraFan wrote: »

Wanting to do the quest during the event is just a bad idea. A lot of people are running dungeons to get to the end and get the event box. It's probably the worst time to say, "Hey, I'm here for the quest." It's a "read the room" situation. To me, it's obvious that wanting to do anything but zoom through a dungeon while the undaunted event is on is going to be wishful thinking most of the time. For anyone trying to do this, wait until the event ends to do your quests and you'll hopefully find that it will be easier then.

(Right now, I honestly shake my head in amazement that some players are surprised or upset because people want to get through dungeons as quickly as possible during the undaunted event.)

Yeah never underestimate folks' ability to pick the absolute worst time to do something, and complain about it. Reminds me of the yearly complaints about trying to complete the IC questline during mayhem. (Keep in mind too that I'm not supporting people behaving poorly in dungeons, but you can't control random strangers and right now most of them want to finish the dungeon immediately for event tickets and a box, that's just reality).

wolfie1.0.

Elsonso wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

No because there's a solution to this built in to the game - make your own group.

I disagree with this line of thinking simply because people get bonuses from using the dungeon finder. If too many people run pre-made groups, it gets harder to make PUGs. If the player is doing something specific in the dungeon (ie story), then certainly, do the "make your own" group, but if someone just wants to run a dungeon, the dungeon finder should be the preferred tool.

People running dungeon finder need to hang towards the average and stay with the group. The "stop and smell the flowers" person needs to pick up the pace and stay with the group, while the "I need to get this dungeon done in 60 seconds or less because I have things to do" person needs to slow it down and hang with the group.

My biggest problem with "joining encounter" is that it will pull me in, with the associated black transition screen, while I am right there with the boss. Rather than attacking, I am sitting around waiting while it teleports me to where I already was. This is likely due to the radius around the boss being too small, and I am a quarter inch too far away but it happens quite often.

And yes, the instance should remain open after the activity is complete for 2x or 3x what it is now. This would allow looting the place.

You can still queue into random normals and random vets as a pre-made group. Allowing you to still get those rewards.

Vonnegut2506

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Wanting to do the quest during the event is just a bad idea. A lot of people are running dungeons to get to the end and get the event box. It's probably the worst time to say, "Hey, I'm here for the quest." It's a "read the room" situation. To me, it's obvious that wanting to do anything but zoom through a dungeon while the undaunted event is on is going to be wishful thinking most of the time. For anyone trying to do this, wait until the event ends to do your quests and you'll hopefully find that it will be easier then.

(Right now, I honestly shake my head in amazement that some players are surprised or upset because people want to get through dungeons as quickly as possible during the undaunted event.)

Yeah never underestimate folks' ability to pick the absolute worst time to do something, and complain about it. Reminds me of the yearly complaints about trying to complete the IC questline during mayhem. (Keep in mind too that I'm not supporting people behaving poorly in dungeons, but you can't control random strangers and right now most of them want to finish the dungeon immediately for event tickets and a box, that's just reality).

Just so I understand the mental gymnastics you are going through to condone speed running: You are claiming an event where the sole purpose is to run group dungeons is the "absolute worst time" to do the quick quest in that group dungeon?

Asdara

Ardriel wrote: »

Reading this, you might think that a lot of players suffer from “speed runners.” The fact is, however, that when I use the random dungeon finder, I experience speed runs in 80 out of 100 cases. Even on vet. So it's a minority of players who are upset about the gaming behavior of the absolute majority. I think people who have a problem with speedrunners should start their own groups. Not the other way around.
That aside, I don't think a confirmation check is necessary. For me personally, that wouldn't be beneficial. I am often pulled into the fight as a tank, even with my consent and also as dd or healer. You can easily skip obstacles and useless trash like this. Often, you are also pulled into the fight in trials after you joined a group which is already waiting at the boss. This already results in a loss of time = loss of dps, and as a tank, every second counts when bosses are not taunted. A confirmation check would just be another unnecessary delay.

almost considering making this my official signature, you nailed it

valenwood_vegan

Vonnegut2506 wrote: »

Just so I understand the mental gymnastics you are going through to condone speed running: You are claiming an event where the sole purpose is to run group dungeons is the "absolute worst time" to do the quick quest in that group dungeon?

I don't condone speed running, actually. But I can't control how random strangers act. I group with my friends and guildies to avoid these issues. Again, the reality of the situation is that yes... most people during this event want to complete the dungeon rapidly to get boss loot / tickets / a box. That is how the event has been designed. A decade of these complaints, and zos has never so much as responded. [EDIT: actually, they have... they added the joining encounter in progress feature... specifically. Intentionally. That should give some insight into their thinking].

I dunno what y'all expect. Good luck out there.

SilverBride

It's not just an event going on. It's an event and a dungeon themed Golden Pursuit. So players are more likely to want fast runs.

ArchMikem

Frayton wrote: »

scrappy1342 wrote: »

"they can make their own group" goes both ways.

True but speedrunners aren't the ones constantly complaining and making posts here about people who go too slow.

Dungeons are built with phases and a Questline with dialogue. There is no such thing as too slow.

The ONLY part of a Dungeon that actually requires speed, is if a Boss has a dps check mechanic.

GloatingSwine

Just give every dungeon boss a guaranteed one-shot heavy attack they always start the fight with so that if you run in before the tank has aggro you die every time.