Options Discussion: Splitting Speedrunners From Story-Pace Players in Dungeons

TumlinTheJolly

For years, half the playerbase have zoomed ahead to finish dungeons as quickly as possible (AoE pulls), while the other half want to take their time and enjoy the story, etc. We have all experienced this, and we all generally fall into one camp or the other. How do we fix it? This post is not designed to say which of the two approaches is right or wrong, but to discuss queueing solution to resolve the issue.

I would propose adding a third option to the two existing options of 'Veteran' and 'Normal', called 'Story'. This option would be at the same difficulty as 'Normal', and its queue description would imply that it was a queue for people who wanted to move through the dungeon at a leisurely pace, to enjoy the story, etc. The rewards would be the same as 'Normal' difficulty. People who wanted to go quickly would know to queue for 'Normal', while people who wanted to take their time would know to queue for 'Story'.

Would this solution work? Could it be altered/improved upon? What other ideas have people had to address the issue?

Soarora

Group finder was made for this purpose. It has a speedrun and a story option.

TumlinTheJolly

Soarora wrote: »

Group finder was made for this purpose. It has a speedrun and a story option.

Ah, interesting. I'm a returning player who has never really used this tool.

Do you still get the Premium Undaunted Exploration Supplies from using the Group Finder tool? If not, that's the problem.

Alternatively, they should add story playstyle functionality into the Dungeon Finder tool, as that's where the issue lies. People are usually running speed playstyle to get Undaunted Exploration Supplies as quickly as possible.

Rishikesa108

Soarora wrote: »

Group finder was made for this purpose. It has a speedrun and a story option.

Yes, but most people ignore what the option says, and they always run. It doesn't matter if it is a "story" option dungeon...

BananaBender

The only real solution is to take away the incentive to do the dungeons quickly. People are there for easy and quick transmutes, so if those got moved to somewhere else, people wouldn't be speedrunning dungeons as much. People wouldn't be doing normal dungeons much at all to be fair, since why would you if there is no reward, but at least speedrunning wouldn't be an issue.

So transmutes in normal dungeons are pretty much a double edged sword. It makes sure people are constantly running them, no matter your level, but it comes at the cost of people wanting to do them as quickly as possible, only to get the transmutes. As long as transmutes are such a mandatory resource, and normal dungeons are the fastest and by far the easiest way of acquiring them, people will be speedrunning them, faking their roles and finding any possible loophole to get past any possible restriction.

Erickson9610

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

Do you still get the Premium Undaunted Exploration Supplies from using the Group Finder tool? If not, that's the problem.

Use the Group Finder to complete the dungeon the first time for the story, then use the Dungeon Finder afterwards to get rewards for completing dungeons with random people.

TumlinTheJolly

Yeah I'm looking at the Group Finder tool now. It looks like a bit of a flop? I'm assuming something like 95%+ of people just use the Dungeon Finder tool? That's where the solution should be implemented IMO.

TumlinTheJolly

BananaBender wrote: »

The only real solution is to take away the incentive to do the dungeons quickly. People are there for easy and quick transmutes, so if those got moved to somewhere else, people wouldn't be speedrunning dungeons as much. People wouldn't be doing normal dungeons much at all to be fair, since why would you if there is no reward, but at least speedrunning wouldn't be an issue.

So transmutes in normal dungeons are pretty much a double edged sword. It makes sure people are constantly running them, no matter your level, but it comes at the cost of people wanting to do them as quickly as possible, only to get the transmutes. As long as transmutes are such a mandatory resource, and normal dungeons are the fastest and by far the easiest way of acquiring them, people will be speedrunning them, faking their roles and finding any possible loophole to get past any possible restriction.

This would also work TBH. It might kill dungeons a bit though. Hmmm. Maybe not the BEST solution?

Soarora

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Group finder was made for this purpose. It has a speedrun and a story option.

Ah, interesting. I'm a returning player who has never really used this tool.

Do you still get the Premium Undaunted Exploration Supplies from using the Group Finder tool? If not, that's the problem.

Alternatively, they should add story playstyle functionality into the Dungeon Finder tool, as that's where the issue lies. People are usually running speed playstyle to get Undaunted Exploration Supplies as quickly as possible.

If you get the group together through group finder and then do random normal/vet through the queue, then yes.

TumlinTheJolly

Soarora wrote: »

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Group finder was made for this purpose. It has a speedrun and a story option.

Ah, interesting. I'm a returning player who has never really used this tool.

Do you still get the Premium Undaunted Exploration Supplies from using the Group Finder tool? If not, that's the problem.

Alternatively, they should add story playstyle functionality into the Dungeon Finder tool, as that's where the issue lies. People are usually running speed playstyle to get Undaunted Exploration Supplies as quickly as possible.

If you get the group together through group finder and then do random normal/vet through the queue, then yes.

This solution still adds an admin step of forming a group manually, which is probably too big of a hurdle for it to occur as the norm?

Djennku

The thing is, you are put in a group of RANDOM people, and the majority vote is what should be done. One person speedrunning ahead faster than anyone can keep up just so they can clear for their rewards is just as much an issue as the one player who wants to drag behind looting and reading everything if neither of them consider the rest of the people in their group thinking ONLY of themselves.

Therein lies the issue. People being selfish and not taking the rest of the group into account. This is also why it is good to communicate with people at the beginning. If someone is going too fast for everyone else to keep pace and is asked to slow down, they need to respect the rest of the group. If your group is ok with speedrunning and doing big pulls, that's fine, and the best way to know is to ask everyone there if that works for them.

The same if you want to go slower or take time reading through dialogue.

My personal experience running dungeons, especially the normal rando queue, is that dugeons don't usually take very long, and the best experience for everyone is when we move together as a group, and go as fast or as slow as we decide as a team, so everyone can get what they want out of it.

disky

A dungeon story mode has been discussed internally for some time, but there are no specifics as to when or if it's going to happen. It's a good idea though. Not everyone wants to race through dungeons as humanly possible.

ESO_player123

BananaBender wrote: »

The only real solution is to take away the incentive to do the dungeons quickly. People are there for easy and quick transmutes, so if those got moved to somewhere else, people wouldn't be speedrunning dungeons as much. People wouldn't be doing normal dungeons much at all to be fair, since why would you if there is no reward, but at least speedrunning wouldn't be an issue.

So transmutes in normal dungeons are pretty much a double edged sword. It makes sure people are constantly running them, no matter your level, but it comes at the cost of people wanting to do them as quickly as possible, only to get the transmutes. As long as transmutes are such a mandatory resource, and normal dungeons are the fastest and by far the easiest way of acquiring them, people will be speedrunning them, faking their roles and finding any possible loophole to get past any possible restriction.

It was discussed many times already. Remove transmutes, there is still gear farming (best done as fast as possible). Remove gear, there is still daily XP chunk (best done as fast as possible). Remove XP, why would anyone go to Normal dungeons for the second time at all (except for skill point on an alt)? Result: normal dungeon queue will take forever.

BananaBender

ESO_player123 wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

The only real solution is to take away the incentive to do the dungeons quickly. People are there for easy and quick transmutes, so if those got moved to somewhere else, people wouldn't be speedrunning dungeons as much. People wouldn't be doing normal dungeons much at all to be fair, since why would you if there is no reward, but at least speedrunning wouldn't be an issue.

So transmutes in normal dungeons are pretty much a double edged sword. It makes sure people are constantly running them, no matter your level, but it comes at the cost of people wanting to do them as quickly as possible, only to get the transmutes. As long as transmutes are such a mandatory resource, and normal dungeons are the fastest and by far the easiest way of acquiring them, people will be speedrunning them, faking their roles and finding any possible loophole to get past any possible restriction.

It was discussed many times already. Remove transmutes, there is still gear farming (best done as fast as possible). Remove gear, there is still daily XP chunk (best done as fast as possible). Remove XP, why would anyone go to Normal dungeons for the second time at all (except for skill point on an alt)? Result: normal dungeon queue will take forever.

I fully agree. What I proposed would be a horrible change, but I don't think there is another way that could work.

If there was a new queue for people who only want to read the story, it would take ages for them to find a group. It's already a pain to find a tank, let alone one that wants to stay behind and read the story.

I think the overlap between people who do dungeons actively and people who really care about quests is too small for a standalone queue to function.

In short, if you want even relatively fast queue times, you have to be willing to deal with people who are simply there for the quickest run possible. If would be willing to wait, you can make a group finder listing and make sure everyone is on the same page.

Soarora

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Group finder was made for this purpose. It has a speedrun and a story option.

Ah, interesting. I'm a returning player who has never really used this tool.

Do you still get the Premium Undaunted Exploration Supplies from using the Group Finder tool? If not, that's the problem.

Alternatively, they should add story playstyle functionality into the Dungeon Finder tool, as that's where the issue lies. People are usually running speed playstyle to get Undaunted Exploration Supplies as quickly as possible.

If you get the group together through group finder and then do random normal/vet through the queue, then yes.

This solution still adds an admin step of forming a group manually, which is probably too big of a hurdle for it to occur as the norm?

ZOS gave us an attempt at a solution, I'm simply saying it exists. Really, anyone who doesn't want to deal with a random group should form their own group by friends, discord, guilds, or the group finder.

ChaoticWings3

disky wrote: »

A dungeon story mode has been discussed internally for some time, but there are no specifics as to when or if it's going to happen. It's a good idea though. Not everyone wants to race through dungeons as humanly possible.

Pretty much what I was going to say. The only thing I can say if you are a returning player is to either use the group finder which may have mixed results or join a guild that doesn't mind taking a slower pace with someone experiencing the story for the first time. When I started up my new dk and pretty much planned to run through the dungeons like that I pretty much just asked in my guilds till I got 2 or 3 more players that were fine with me taking a slower pace looking for lore bits.

I'm hoping a story mode could be in place at some point for those that want to experience the story and not have to worry about finding others to run it with you. I actually had someone I would just tank dungeons for, didn't pay attention to the dialogue, just was there to tank which honestly turned into a challenge run because companions weren't really a thing at that point so if I didn't do my job well it wasn't going to end well. I really just want as many people to see those quests because some of them are very good and some have recurring characters like with Selene in one of the dragon dungeons.

Imza

This is an issue for me as a returned player - many of the dlc dungeons have secret bosses and I can't find anyone willing to do them - they all want to run fast and do the minimum necessary even for the pledges.

manukartofanu

BananaBender wrote: »

The only real solution is to take away the incentive to do the dungeons quickly. People are there for easy and quick transmutes, so if those got moved to somewhere else, people wouldn't be speedrunning dungeons as much. People wouldn't be doing normal dungeons much at all to be fair, since why would you if there is no reward, but at least speedrunning wouldn't be an issue.

So transmutes in normal dungeons are pretty much a double edged sword. It makes sure people are constantly running them, no matter your level, but it comes at the cost of people wanting to do them as quickly as possible, only to get the transmutes. As long as transmutes are such a mandatory resource, and normal dungeons are the fastest and by far the easiest way of acquiring them, people will be speedrunning them, faking their roles and finding any possible loophole to get past any possible restriction.

This won't solve anything.
First, even if this is done, there will still be people going into the dungeon just for the skill point on a new character.
Second, normal modes will basically not find any parties, and those who want to read the quests will have to either go solo or look for a group... and this option already exists now.
So the question is: why complicate things? At least for now, beginners can complete normal modes with experienced players who are there for transmutes.

Taril

The only true solution would be to create/enable "Solo" versions of the dungeons. That are either heavily nerfed, or come with a bunch of NPC's to assist you.

That way, someone can go through the dungeon at their own pace, experience the story, collect (And read) all of the lore notes and generally explore the areas.

Right now, there exists the Group Finder and Guilds/Friends that can allow you to attempt to find like minded people but it will always be less convenient and still subject to how people percieve "Going slowly" (Some people might like to mass pull and kill everything as "Going slowly" as they consider the "Just run past everything lol" method the "Fast" way)

Sarannah

People forget there is a whole world of dungeon running types between story and speedrunner. Personally I like to kill all mobs we can't avoid and loot all sacks and chests when I am there anyways. I too would like to run a dungeon as fast as possible, just not speedrunner "ignore everything except bosses" fast. So basically, get the best possible full loot scenario while going as fast as possible.

Just normally doing a dungeon, killing and looting, like any MMO should provide.

Those speedrunning and fake role'ing often use story mode or listening to dialog as an excuse for what they are doing, but this is never the case. I have never in an MMO met anyone who wanted to listen to the dialog in their own pace in a pug group. These dialog players always find a group that wants to do the same, outside of pugs.

Currently the MMO part of ESO is beyond broken, and needs to be fixed ASAP. Dungeons need to be on-rails and roles need to be enforced, so everyone can get from a dungeon what they wanted to get from the dungeon. All in a non-toxic way! Personally I loved doing dungeons, and even I stopped running them entirely due to how toxic this currently is.

PS: Killing all mobs we can't avoid is usually faster than speedrunning through everything! (due to doors/stuns/group falling apart/etc)
PPS: We need a +3 companions random dungeon queue. So players can go at any pace they want!

Djennku

And that's the bigger issue. Respect of other people. Some players have zero respect for others and only care about themselves. You can't control how other people behave, as we are all (most of us) adults and are responsible for our interactions with others online.

The dungeon finder queue puts you together with random people, and it's a roll of the dice who you end up with. Sadly it's never guaranteed who you end up with (unless you queue as a premade group), but it's been that way forever and you just tend to deal with it. You have options though, like leaving group or vote to kick if you need it.

Sarannah

Djennku wrote: »

And that's the bigger issue. Respect of other people. Some players have zero respect for others and only care about themselves. You can't control how other people behave, as we are all (most of us) adults and are responsible for our interactions with others online.

The dungeon finder queue puts you together with random people, and it's a roll of the dice who you end up with. Sadly it's never guaranteed who you end up with (unless you queue as a premade group), but it's been that way forever and you just tend to deal with it. You have options though, like leaving group or vote to kick if you need it.

This is why practically every other MMO has dungeons on-rails and enforced roles, to remove any possible case of toxicity and trolling done by other players(like we are seeing in ESO). This makes dungeons in other games much more pleasant to run, and this should be an example to ESO.

Destai

I would prefer they remove quests from dungeons entirely. Let the experience itself be the story, no dialogue is needed when it’s all voice acted. The first time you do the dungeon, you’re awarded the skill point.

colossalvoids

The only way it can be solved is solo story mode which they've said is planned already. Anything grouping related won't as we already have a group finder and no one is interested in that. The "slow" queue won't be populated to get into an instance fast enough if ever. And experienced support players won't be there either I'd expect, so experience might get even worse despite the low difficulty.

Ugrak

ChaoticWings3 wrote: »

When I started up my new dk and pretty much planned to run through the dungeons like that I pretty much just asked in my guilds till I got 2 or 3 more players that were fine with me taking a slower pace looking for lore bits.

That's indeed the only reliable solution at this time (aside from manual soloing). To form a full group with players whose goals and playstyle align, and avoid random group composition entirely.

Half of the issue is down to an overemphasis on gamification psychology. Players aren't so much enjoying content, as instead simply bypassing it to enjoy some sort of recurring reward. These players are basically at work, and hard at it. Efficiency is really all they care about in this process. No time for fun and games.

Essentially it is the game design itself that puts in place both the excessive gamification and the paths of least resistance these players end up taking. The only reason players can disregard roles and speedrun away from their group is because roles are just something you say; not something you are.

Ideally the character would simply be built to perform the functions of a role and the roles should largely be mutually exclusive (not just for PVE queueing but also PVP balancing). Lack of this exclusivity is a flaw that could have been averted through a different implementation of the class concept, which is why games typically have had tank, damage and healing classes in the first place, which further translates to more of a rock, paper, scissor dynamic in PVP.

A potential late workaround I could imagine would be to just move the tank, healing, damage role selection out of the menu and to an NPC or item similar to a mundus stone. Something to do with the undaunted I suppose. Then make it so that selecting a role gives you debuffs relevant to the remaining roles. If you tank, your healing and damage becomes pitiful, and similar for the others. Doing damage means pitiful healing and tankyness. There are item sets and similar that produce such effects already so it should be feasible.

You'd always have a role, and always carry the debuffs this way, so maybe there should be a solo role as well which just removes the debuffs so that the game plays as it currently does, but with the solo role active you cannot queue for the dungeon finder or Cyrodiil and battlegrounds.

AnduinTryggva

Soarora wrote: »

Group finder was made for this purpose. It has a speedrun and a story option.

You are right. But there is no harm done, just a bit of coding to add this to the dungeon finder as option. Implement a check box "story" and put only those ppl together with this box checked.

As I play since long before the group search existed I have run most dungeons in speed run involuntarily.

The pitty is that you cannot re-run the story once run. That is another thing I would like to see changed. It should work as with trials that you can repeat the quest but with no or only minor quest rewards (only gold for instance).

mocap

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

The pitty is that you cannot re-run the story once run

Almost all dialogs are repeated if you go through it again. There is no quest marker, otherwise almost everything else is the same. Though I agree, this stuff should be repeatable or daily or whatever it's called (white-blue marker).

jle30303

There's one suggestion I'd have, for at least the "DLC Dungeons have secret bosses that nobody wants to do" issue:

LET THE SECRET BOSSES DROP WEAPONS FROM THE DUNGEON SETS.

Presto, suddenly more people will want to do them.

CalamityCat

I'd love if a story mode would actually work, but it would still require players to co-operate on their speed through that dungeon. So I think the best option for story mode is to use guild/friends/group finder. I think that's the best route for the speed runners too.

I do think it would be helpful if the dungeon queue could prioritise grouping players who all need the quest for a certain dungeon.

Also having the option to toggle different speeds, so you could opt in/out of story mode, moderate and speed run. Then the game would attempt to put like-minded characters together when that was possible. But it might at least keep the slowest and fastest separated

On a more basic level, I think requiring the majority of a group to be at the boss to start the fight would make a big difference to those who want to do a dungeon without racing.

Orbital78

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

Yeah I'm looking at the Group Finder tool now. It looks like a bit of a flop? I'm assuming something like 95%+ of people just use the Dungeon Finder tool? That's where the solution should be implemented IMO.

The queue system barely works as it is. While we are at it, I would really like to not be matched with players I don't get along with and which are on my ignore list. Once we're matched, group chat doesn't ignore their messages.

More people just need to use the group finder tool. I see it mostly used for trials, which is great. The dungeon groups I do see are usually only hard mode or trifecta. Also great, but I see much less dungeon group finders.

Most people use the dungeon finder tool because they just want to do dungeons real quick. Hence why so many groups speed run.

Vaqual

You know that little flag that you can change when you set up a dungeon and swap between normal and vet? Just add a third of those and flag as "Story"-Player. They can then split the queue for normal dungeons into player with/without story flag without further interface changes and without expanding the list of selectable dungeons. That way Story players can have their daily reward (why ever that seems to be so important - how often do people run these things in "story mode"?).

It will be a mostly dead queue, but at least we could leave this debate behind. I thought we would be done with this topic with the addition of group finder, but giving adults the responsibility to form their own groups is apparently too much to ask.