Forum Moderation PSA

Destai

Syldras wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

My opinion, as far as these forums are concerned, is that a discussion starts once the topic is mentioned. The reason I feel this way is because once the topic is mentioned it will generate replies from other posters, so just mentioning the topic is the thing that causes a discussion to then ensue.

From my experience, it does not. I've seen cases in earlier years where in lore discussions something like "Character X is based on the god Y of religion Z" slipped through, and it never turned into a discussion about religion Z, let alone one that could be seen as respectless or insulting.

Although to be honest, with diversity being a big topic these days, it's hard for me to understand anyway why talking about this world's diversity, all its different interesting cultures, beliefs and traditions, in a non-judgemental way, is considered a bad, forbidden thing. And not an insightful opportunity to learn, and to contribute to the mutual understanding between people of different origins. I'm in different international forums where discussing these things is absolutely okay, and I've never seen these discussions ending badly, quite the opposite.

Of course if it's forbidden here, I accept it. But with my background and experiences, it's truly a bit hard to understand why.

Personally, I love delving into the real world inspirations behind some of the lore. It's one of the reasons I like Dark Elves so much, you can see some very clear references to existing theologies and philosophies. I remember when I first heard of CHIM years ago, and I really enjoyed reading the analysis of that. I would love to see more conversations like that.

Syldras

Destai wrote: »

Personally, I love delving into the real world inspirations behind some of the lore. It's one of the reasons I like Dark Elves so much, you can see some very clear references to existing theologies and philosophies. I remember when I first heard of CHIM years ago, and I really enjoyed reading the analysis of that. I would love to see more conversations like that.

Me too. But unfortunately, the rules, the way they currently are, make that kind of discussions risky. In many lore discussions, much more background info could be written, but there's always the problem that even historical comparisons could be considered bordering a discussion of politics, religion or any other unwanted topic. Depending on interpretion, even just pointing out a cultural difference could be read as "politics". Let's say I've grown cautious. Sadly.

Ishtarknows

ApoAlaia wrote: »

If however one disagrees with the post, one can either go ahead and elaborate - thus exposing one's arguments to the same peer scrutiny as the ones expressed in the post one is disagreeing with - or 'forever keep one's peace' (so to speak); a 'disagree' without elaborating or substantiating is of very little value; at best a somewhat unreliable measure of background noise, at worst a tool to silence opinions whilst avoiding any scrutiny of one's own.

I've read people use the "insightful" button here as a disagree which I found interesting

Sleepsin

Ishtarknows wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

If however one disagrees with the post, one can either go ahead and elaborate - thus exposing one's arguments to the same peer scrutiny as the ones expressed in the post one is disagreeing with - or 'forever keep one's peace' (so to speak); a 'disagree' without elaborating or substantiating is of very little value; at best a somewhat unreliable measure of background noise, at worst a tool to silence opinions whilst avoiding any scrutiny of one's own.

I've read people use the "insightful" button here as a disagree which I found interesting

It's more of a way to softly chuckle, it has replaced the LOL button.

SilverBride

I use insightful to mean insightful.

TaSheen

I just use the "insightful" button when a post is to my mind truly insightful....

Tandor

SilverBride wrote: »

I use insightful to mean insightful.

Me too, I take it to mean informative.

Syldras

There was a poll about this a few months ago:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664489/what-do-you-use-the-insightful-button-for/p1

SilverBride

Thanks for linking that poll! I was looking for it but couldn't find it!

Ruthless

Pelanora wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

The ESO reddit is very toxic, because too many of its members use downvotes as a weapon against anyone they don't like or who challenges their opinions.

Rather other people than deleted and moderated into permabans. And being disagreed with, is life. Challenging opinions is how life progresses.

There is definitely some weird downvoters thing going on, some people sitting in the sub who just vote down everything as soon as it's posted, but that gets ignored, and usually turns around with time into upvotes.

I just like the relief of the freedom of it.

But as per above ^^^^

CHILLING is key i guess.

you also seem to be banned o7

Valion

SilverBride wrote: »

I disagree with all of these points.
[...]
Changing things so that it's acceptable for posters to openly criticize others is not the way to go.

Okay then, let me tell you what I think.
Because this might be a nice little example of "losing it in translation", so to say.

A thread about Moderation in this forum can very well contain some examples of polite, functional phrasing.
But it might also be borderlining an authoritarian vibe, patronizing even, to ask for black and white patterns of communication like you do it here.
The very approach you (!) represent would offend many people where I live!
Can you imagine that?
I feel talked down to just reading what you write although I really understand and like were you are heading with all these communication rules you want to see fullfilled here.

But that is just not how you would treat people here in some western parts Germany, since they'd tell you not to act so arrogant.
To me, your inputs sound strict and rude.
And please, don't blame this as bashing since this is really a problem I want to point out again, not a critique ad hominem.

Every Moderation will be well advised to widen their sense of the strong relativity of norms and communication cultures on this World Wide Web.
Quite a burden to ask, I guess.

LadyGP

If ZoS wants to really know what people think about the forum moderation I suggest they head over to Reddit. There was a topic posted over there and it was....rough. Let's just say... grab a few drinks before sitting down to read it... they don't hold back.

SilverBride

Valion wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I disagree with all of these points.
[...]
Changing things so that it's acceptable for posters to openly criticize others is not the way to go.

Okay then, let me tell you what I think.
Because this might be a nice little example of "losing it in translation", so to say.

A thread about Moderation in this forum can very well contain some examples of polite, functional phrasing.
But it might also be borderlining an authoritarian vibe, patronizing even, to ask for black and white patterns of communication like you do it here.
The very approach you (!) represent would offend many people where I live!
Can you imagine that?
I feel talked down to just reading what you write although I really understand and like were you are heading with all these communication rules you want to see fullfilled here.

But that is just not how you would treat people here in some western parts Germany, since they'd tell you not to act so arrogant.
To me, your inputs sound strict and rude.
And please, don't blame this as bashing since this is really a problem I want to point out again, not a critique ad hominem.

Every Moderation will be well advised to widen their sense of the strong relativity of norms and communication cultures on this World Wide Web.
Quite a burden to ask, I guess.

My comments began when a poster asked why a certain criticism they made of another poster was considered baiting. I noted the forum guideline that states that we are not to take jabs at other posters but just keep our comments directed to the topic being discussed. I'm not sure why trying to clarify this guideline to help that poster know what not to do in the future would be considered rude.

I also don't want this guideline changed and permission given to criticize each other because personally criticizing others can be seen as rude and non constructive.

I hope that clarifies my view. I'm not intending to talk down to anyone and just want discussions to remain civil and productive.

Erickson9610

SilverBride wrote: »

I also don't want this guideline changed and permission given to criticize each other because personally criticizing others can be seen as rude and non constructive.

Agreed. I've had people say things of this nature to me in the past:

• "Weren't you the person who said 'x' previously? Why are you saying 'y'?"
• "How many hours have you actually spent on 'x'?"
• "We all know you support 'x' and that's the real reason you are saying 'y'."

I'm obviously paraphrasing and interpreting what was actually said, as I don't want to go back and directly quote the people who I'm referring to. The point is, while comments like these would help them prove their point in a discussion, they are inappropriate because they aren't arguing about the subject matter, and instead are criticizing the author.

Bringing up a user's habits and stance as a way to diminish their current argument should not be allowed on these forums — for all intents and purposes, previous history with other forum users should be off limits in a discussion, as if they never happened.

spartaxoxo

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Bringing up a user's habits and stance as a way to diminish their current argument should not be allowed on these forums — for all intents and purposes, previous history with other forum users should be off limits in a discussion, as if they never happened.

While in an ideal setting, it should be okay to point out this type of thing because pointing out how two situations are similar can spark reflection, I would agree it's probably too open to abuse to allow for that. So, I agree that type of thing should be deleted. Although, whether or not someone gets actioned for that should depend on context and intentions.

That said, "never ever reference another user" creates a negative environment where normal disagreement is punished because many people will use conversational speech when talking to another person.

For example (completely made up, any resemblance to an actual post is coincidence).

Mannimarco: I hate the midyear mayhem. Nobody should be forced to pvp. Delete this event.

Lyris: You aren't being forced. You can just catch up at New Life if you need the tickets. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that PvP should be deleted. Lots of us enjoy it. It's my favorite event.

This is a perfectly reasonable reply. But, Mannimarco might flag this because another user referenced him while disagreeing. And currently the mod team would validate it because it was a negative opinion that references another user. But, I don't think simply disagreeing with someone else should be grounds for this rule.

The rule about making comments about another user should be reserved for things that are obviously intentionally disrespectful such as calling someone's post history out or mocking them. Flags are often used on dissent. The mods should recognize when that's the case and the "offending" poster clearly meant no harm. And the post should not be edited or removed if it's not a harmful post.

Syldras

Erickson9610 wrote: »

[*] "Weren't you the person who said 'x' previously? Why are you saying 'y'?"
[*] "How many hours have you actually spent on 'x'?"
[*] "We all know you support 'x' and that's the real reason you are saying 'y'."
[/list]
I'm obviously paraphrasing and interpreting what was actually said, as I don't want to go back and directly quote the people who I'm referring to. The point is, while comments like these would help them prove their point in a discussion, they are inappropriate because they aren't arguing about the subject matter, and instead are criticizing the author.

Seems to be cultural differences again. Except for the third example which is ad hominem and a negative imputation (saying there's a "real reason", so accusing the user of lying), I would not consider these questions to be rude at all. I read them as normal questions to find out why or how someone came to their conclusion, an interest to learn more and to understand the reasoning behind an opinion. Actually a very positive thing, because it means that person actually cares for someone's opinion, otherwise they would just ignore it and wouldn't even take the time to inquire further (I certainly don't have time to reply anything to people I don't take seriously - so if I do it means I have interest in an actual conversation with someone).

If someone asked me these questions, I would just answer factually because usually I have good reasons for my opinions and I think sharing them could be insightful:
"Yes, I changed my opinion because I lately noticed that..."
"I've been participating in that system for 5 years now, so I have made the experience that..."

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

[*] "Weren't you the person who said 'x' previously? Why are you saying 'y'?"
[*] "How many hours have you actually spent on 'x'?"
[*] "We all know you support 'x' and that's the real reason you are saying 'y'."
[/list]
I'm obviously paraphrasing and interpreting what was actually said, as I don't want to go back and directly quote the people who I'm referring to. The point is, while comments like these would help them prove their point in a discussion, they are inappropriate because they aren't arguing about the subject matter, and instead are criticizing the author.

Seems to be cultural differences again. Except for the third example which is ad hominem and a negative imputation (saying there's a "real reason", so accusing the user of lying), I would not consider these questions to be rude at all. I read them as normal questions to find out why or how someone came to their conclusion, an interest to learn more and to understand the reasoning behind an opinion. Actually a very positive thing, because it means that person actually cares for someone's opinion, otherwise they would just ignore it and wouldn't even take the time to inquire further (I certainly don't have time to reply anything to people I don't take seriously).

If someone asked me these questions, I would just answer factually because usually I have good reasons for my opinions and I think sharing them could be insightful:
"Yes, I changed my opinion because I lately noticed that..."
"I've been participating in that system for 5 years now, so I have made the experience that..."

This is a pretty good point too. I have actually simply answered such a question before and it lead to better understanding of my opinion. In fact, I have often been glad for such questions as it has given me opportunities to clarify opinions. I have actually had people go "oh that makes sense" or "fair enough 🙂" after such explanations. As a general rule, I'd rather discuss and inform when faced with such questions.

But I have also experienced such questions being used as call outs to be hostile and overly personal towards me too.

I think it's pretty context dependent on what someone means.

SteveCampsOut

I keep seeing "We don't want Rudeness" here, and yet the people saying this seem to be rude to me quite often. The problem with moderating "Rudeness" has already been clearly stated. What's rude to some is just straight forward honesty to others. There are many cultural differences at play here and also there are many of us who are on the spectrum which makes our communications outside the norm and if you are going to moderate "rudeness" everyone pretty much should just pack up and leave.

These forums give every individual the tools they need to stop seeing what offends them. It would help if these tools were expanded, like the ignore list. Twelve is just too small a list for some. If one can't just ignore the rude person, but has to silence them for everyone, that is a problem.

I'm not naming names here, but this will very likely be reported for being rude, when in my eyes I'm just being honest about what's going on here. Rudeness is not a personal attack if it's honest critique. For the record, I find censorship to be rude.

SilverBride

I don't find it rude to explain why we feel like we do. Understanding where we are all coming from can help keep our discussions civil.

But I do not agree that any criticism of another poster is ok, whether there is a basis for the criticism or not. We are here to discuss ESO and not make criticisms about other posters.

Posters do not need to just accept being criticized by putting the poster on ignore and not reading their posts. Criticizing other posters is against the forum guidelines and that needs to be dealt with.

wilykcat

The censorship here is good because it blocks profanity and other forms of very inappropriate content that no one wants to see. I don't find it rude at all since these forums are owned by Zenimax so they decide what should be blocked or not.

Zenimax doesn't need people giving them backlash/harsh criticism on their own official forum since it can be viewed by those who do or don't have accounts including other businesses. They prefer constructive criticism.

Using these forums is a privilege from Zenimax. If someone doesn't like or agree with the rules or how the rules are enforced then that someone has the right to leave and use some other platform.

Any less or zero moderation will cause chaos and calamity on these forums and becomes toxic like the world of warcraft forums, reddit, and discord.

The moderators mean no harm when it comes to the occasional post snip or delete. They are doing their job and it's nothing personal.

200th comment.

sarahthes

wilykcat wrote: »

The censorship here is good because it blocks profanity and other forms of very inappropriate content that no one wants to see. I don't find it rude at all since these forums are owned by Zenimax so they decide what should be blocked or not.

Using these forums is a privilege from Zenimax. If someone doesn't like or agree with the rules or how the rules are enforced then that someone has the right to leave and use some other platform.

Any less or zero moderation will cause chaos and calamity on these forums and becomes toxic like the world of warcraft forums, reddit, and discord.

The moderators mean no harm when it comes to the occasional post snip or delete. They are doing their job and it's nothing personal.

200th comment.

You can have less overbearing moderation while still moderating profanity and other things.

baltic1284

sarahthes wrote: »

wilykcat wrote: »

The censorship here is good because it blocks profanity and other forms of very inappropriate content that no one wants to see. I don't find it rude at all since these forums are owned by Zenimax so they decide what should be blocked or not.

Using these forums is a privilege from Zenimax. If someone doesn't like or agree with the rules or how the rules are enforced then that someone has the right to leave and use some other platform.

Any less or zero moderation will cause chaos and calamity on these forums and becomes toxic like the world of warcraft forums, reddit, and discord.

The moderators mean no harm when it comes to the occasional post snip or delete. They are doing their job and it's nothing personal.

200th comment.

You can have less overbearing moderation while still moderating profanity and other things.

This is very true you can moderate without being overbearing and oppressive with moderation. At the same time harm and damage and trust has been broken due to both the community itself and the company to include staff and moderation and members of the community that lead up to the current state of how things are being handled and done unfortunately.
This includes things off the forums that has happened like Twitch, questions and issues on the forums that where asked, and so forth so it is more complicated than what is happening currently and events that led up to what has happened. ie the Wah insults thrown at the community over PvP, a rule enforced on one person for posting but not on another player for posting the same thing, to select posting cleaning but not equal treatment on others, sudden rule add ons and changes out of nowhere then absolute enforcement on it, to wrongful punishment on a person being blamed for breaking a rule they didn't break, challenging it then no resolution till well after the punishment is done and no apology for it and removal of anything for it. this is just to name a few problems that has happened overtime and the years.
The way the rules are currently being enforced to a point of being overbearing and oppressive where you can't ask simple questions without being done in and banned isn't good for the community overall. I don't even post like i use too over years mainly due to how Moderators themselves handle things and to overbearing nature that is used to handle simple situations that has approached the point where the community itself is dyeing as a result of it forum wise and fewer posts are made and overall spreads to other areas of the game.
How those rules are enforced needs to change and warning and bans need only be used in extreme cases, not as a means for enforcement itself simply talking get perspective on what is trying to be said and at times simply asking can you change what you post without being aggressive towards others can do more on regulating things just what is currently happening.
Another issue is also cultural what is acceptable in one culture may not be in another culture, and that has to be foremost done and upfront, if one person is offended on what is said and how it is said and one person is offended by it due to culture differences does not mean that person broke rules, does the forums need to be for everyone yes, but that also means you cant force what is and isn't from one culture onto another to achieve that. Sniping and removing parts of the posy with no explanation as to why doesn't help either explaining why something was done also goes a long way in moderating but also not oppressing or being overbearing also.

I AM NOT TRYING TO BREAK RULES BUT AM PROVIDINGA VIEW AND SUGGESTIONS TO CHANGES TO MAKE THINGS BETTER FOR ALL NOR ATTACKING ANY STAFF OR MODERATORS IN ANYWAY

katanagirl1

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Bringing up a user's habits and stance as a way to diminish their current argument should not be allowed on these forums — for all intents and purposes, previous history with other forum users should be off limits in a discussion, as if they never happened.

While in an ideal setting, it should be okay to point out this type of thing because pointing out how two situations are similar can spark reflection, I would agree it's probably too open to abuse to allow for that. So, I agree that type of thing should be deleted. Although, whether or not someone gets actioned for that should depend on context and intentions.

That said, "never ever reference another user" creates a negative environment where normal disagreement is punished because many people will use conversational speech when talking to another person.

For example (completely made up, any resemblance to an actual post is coincidence).

Mannimarco: I hate the midyear mayhem. Nobody should be forced to pvp. Delete this event.

Lyris: You aren't being forced. You can just catch up at New Life if you need the tickets. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that PvP should be deleted. Lots of us enjoy it. It's my favorite event.

This is a perfectly reasonable reply. But, Mannimarco might flag this because another user referenced him while disagreeing. And currently the mod team would validate it because it was a negative opinion that references another user. But, I don't think simply disagreeing with someone else should be grounds for this rule.

The rule about making comments about another user should be reserved for things that are obviously intentionally disrespectful such as calling someone's post history out or mocking them. Flags are often used on dissent. The mods should recognize when that's the case and the "offending" poster clearly meant no harm. And the post should not be edited or removed if it's not a harmful post.

I just want to say how much I love your analogy with the Five Companions. You keep Mannimarco in character the whole time and it’s hilarious.

Syldras

I think misunderstandings caused by language difficulties and/or cultural differences are a challenge that comes up at every international place.

There are people with no bad intention in mind, who really only want to make a friendly harmless joke, or disagree politely in a discussion (and even take time to think about how to word it not to sound aggressive), but what they say or write nonetheless is misunderstood as being rude or insulting. And if a problem ensues because of this, these people can't even understand which of their words lead to that negative impression. People who really aren't vulgar or rude persons, but individuals from cultures where a more direct communication is the norm, and some of them also don't speak English perfectly (well enough to express an opinion or an idea, but not that perfect so they could word it with a polite subtleness; as a comparison: "I want..." vs. "I would like..." - A statement they make may sound blunt at times, but that's unintentional and merely a language issue).

And then there are people who genuinely want to be helpful or insightful, who care for a topic and want to contribute to a conversation or answer someone's questions with their knowledge, but accidentally touch some taboo subject in their explanations, which they never expected to be inappropriate because it's a normal everyday topic in their culture of origin. Imagine how discouraging it feels - having only good intentions, taking one's time because one wants to help, and then being completely misunderstood and getting a negative reaction. And it's even more frustrating if there's an insecurity (whether real or perceived) whether asking for an explanation, because one truly wants to understand, could be seen as talking back, as being even more rude, and might lead to an even worse outcome.

This happens at every place where an international crowd of people interacts, so it also happens here. The question is: What do we make of that?

Because I know, the way it is now, some people who struggle with these problems described above are feeling really insecure. People who have already received warnings or even a temporary ban often decide not to write anything at all anymore, or to at least refrain from more in-depth discussions. Not out of spite, but, often with a heavy heart, because they don't want to put their game account at risk in case they got misunderstood again.

It's a decision I see increasingly often, and honestly, it worries me. It looks like this community is slowly losing many very interesting posters, which is a true loss especially in the field of lore.

Of course it will be very peaceful here if most people have left (or read only, but don't write anymore) - very peaceful and very dead. And I don't think this is the future we wish to see for this place.

I hope this is not seen as bashing. My intention is to explain how the situation feels for me and for several friends here.

TaSheen

@Syldras - very well put. I have a good friend (from a country NOT the US) who was a long-time member of this forum, who provided ideas and insights in the early years of the game.

He did have issues with how moderation worked, and with being misunderstood due to his first language NOT being English. Eventually he was perm-banned. He tried appealing but after several attempts he was basically moved to the "persona non grata" list, and no one ever replied to his last appeal.

He does still play the game, but some of the fun went out of his life because he could no longer present ideas on the forum....

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

@Syldras - very well put. I have a good friend (from a country NOT the US) who was a long-time member of this forum, who provided ideas and insights in the early years of the game.
He did have issues with how moderation worked, and with being misunderstood due to his first language NOT being English. Eventually he was perm-banned. He tried appealing but after several attempts he was basically moved to the "persona non grata" list, and no one ever replied to his last appeal.
He does still play the game, but some of the fun went out of his life because he could no longer present ideas on the forum....

This is sad. In general, I always considered a permaban to be the last measure against people who deliberately disturb a community, for example by throwing around slurs or repeatedly insulting or harassing other users, without ceasing that behaviour after being warned about it. Behaviour that shows that that person is clearly unwilling to interact decently with other people - which is, from my experience, easy to distinguish from users who are trying to disturb no one, but might struggle with the language or accidentally touch a taboo topic or word something unclearly when writing a longer text (especially if the text in total is showing a positive intention).

One problem I see right now is that there's little opportunity to learn from mistakes. And even if we are willing to learn and even if we do learn, we just need to make a different mistake twice, and it's over. I'd almost say if language or culture are the problem, this is almost inevitable. If someone writes regularly, at some point some misunderstanding will happen, and if they never expire and accumulate over several years, then at some point it will be over.

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Syldras - very well put. I have a good friend (from a country NOT the US) who was a long-time member of this forum, who provided ideas and insights in the early years of the game.
He did have issues with how moderation worked, and with being misunderstood due to his first language NOT being English. Eventually he was perm-banned. He tried appealing but after several attempts he was basically moved to the "persona non grata" list, and no one ever replied to his last appeal.
He does still play the game, but some of the fun went out of his life because he could no longer present ideas on the forum....

This is sad. In general, I always considered a permaban to be the last measure against people who deliberately disturb a community, for example by throwing around slurs or repeatedly insulting or harassing other users, without ceasing that behaviour after being warned about it. Behaviour that shows that that person is clearly unwilling to interact decently with other people - which is, from my experience, easy to distinguish from users who are trying to disturb no one, but might struggle with the language or accidentally touch a taboo topic or word something unclearly when writing a longer text (especially if the text in total is showing a positive intention).

One problem I see right now is that there's little opportunity to learn from mistakes. And even if we are willing to learn and even if we do learn, we just need to make a different mistake twice, and it's over. I'd almost say if language or culture are the problem, this is almost inevitable. If someone writes regularly, at some point some misunderstanding will happen, and if they never expire and accumulate over several years, then at some point it will be over.

Yes. Disturbing for sure.... and a very cogent explication of exactly what happens....

blktauna

Things are dissappearing again with no comment. Extremely frustrating.

Foxtrot39

Woops wrong forum answer

As in the moderation, dont we havce now AI moderation even monitoring private chats now?

AI is very much flawed

SilverBride

This is what I'd like to see happen. It would turn moderation into a learning experience and not hold old infractions against us forever.

• Give specific explanations for how the forum guideline was violated so the poster can avoid the same mistake in the future.
• Allow the poster to reply and clarify before any moderation is handed down.
• Permanent bans should only be for very extreme infractions and should need approved by an Admin before any action is taken.
• Infractions should fall off our record after a year, effective immediately.