The Long Term Future of ESO, A Constructive Analysis

knightblaster

You're mushing things together. Many have no issue with toggled nameplates. You've also been lobbying, in other threads, for arenas and AHs. Those are very different from nameplates.

Glithanes

jmido8 wrote: »

The point of this thread is to help the game. I'm not here to bash it or call it a failure. With that said, after playing since the 5-day headstart and some during the beta, I have some feedback and constructive critism that I think would do the game wonders. Please don't come here and say the game doesn't need X because it doesn't bother you. I give valid reasoning for my points and explain why I think it will effect the future of the game. If you want to argue with me, please do so in a rational fashion with clear points and explanations.

What I believe is a pressing issue for ESO is its long term goal. The game is being heavily tailored for short term players (the single player rpg group), and really neglecting the mmo'ers which will make up a majority of the player base 1+ years from now. Let me explain a little better:

Throughout the beta's and now in headstart, the game has been heavily pushing immersion regardless of the effects to the mmo portion of the game. Those people who want an immersive Elder Scrolls experience, should expect as much from an Elder Scrolls title. Based on many forum posts/chat talk, it's obvious there are a lot of people playing this for the story/single player type experience. So we don't want to disregard their experience to this game. However, the ESO devs are forcing immersion gameplay which hampers the mmo experience on everyone.

It's important to cater to this story/single player crowd because it is a large crowd, but they're also the crowd who is most likely to quit once they "beat" the game. They may make a couple alts to experience the different factions but they'll only be around for so long. This is highlighted by the fact that this game can't have the type of modding community that oblivion, skyrim, and other completely single player games are allowed to have. There won't be custom content like quests, dungeons, items, ect, to bolster the re-playability.

What does this have to do with the games long term future? Well, the decisions made to increase the games immersion is severely hindering the mmo portion of this game. People are so indignant towards the "generic mmo" that they forget these "generic mmo" features are generic because they're what people love about mmo's. What's worse is that these are features the devs could easily add as being optional toggles in the settings. We even saw some of them in the settings during beta but they were removed. I'm impressed by the immersive gameplay experience they have created but it just doesn't seem like the best marketing approach. Is it really that important that people play the game the exact way they want it to be played? I don't think this is an attempt at preserving the integrity of the TES series because it's already incredibly watered down in comparison to their single player rpg's.

The largest issues at hand in regards to the long term goals are as followed:

1. Nameplates- It was a feature at some point in the beta but they removed it for immesion, that's fine because people should be allowed an immserive gameplay but nameplates are vital for a mmo community. People said it would be made as an addon but based on various forum posts, it seems like it may not be possible. So what does this mean? It means you have no way to identify friends, guildmates, or even the friendly player who saves your life when you're about to die to a monster. You could be playing right next to a guildmate and never know it if you aren't hovering over every persons name (who does that?). MMO's are popular because of the social experience. You play with thousands of players and can communicate and interact with them all.

2. Chat bubbles- Another feature that isn't in this game for immersions sake and it doesn't seem possible to make an addon for. This also plays a huge role in the social aspect of a mmo and it's almost intertwined with nameplates. It's bad enough we don't have obvious visual markers to find friends & guildmates but it's almost impossible to notice when people are speaking around you. I have tried countless times to ask nearby players about a quest using the /s but no one ever responds and you can't blame them. They have no indicators that you're talking and /s talk gets lost in the spam of this awful chat function.

3. Lack of an economy- It's debatable whether or not the guild AH will be a viable option or not. I have joined a couple 500man trading/economy guilds and the economy is not good within them. Besides crafting mats and motifs, stuff does not sell. This is because the people that join trading guilds are mostly those looking to sell, the average player doesn't have access to these guild stores making the selling market incredibly tough. Once people realize no one is buying the armors/weapons/whatever they're crafting or selling, the purchase of mats will slow down and even these guild economies will start to falter.

Based on ESO's huge money sinks (respecting, repairs, ect), I assume that the ESO devs don't really believe in the guild AH economy themselves, otherwise they wouldn't have such huge money sinks to eat up your gold. In my opinion, gold will be worthless later in the game and the game will be driven by a crude, intrusive trade system where people spam chat.

That brings me to the guild store, probably one of the worst AH's I have ever seen. It's incredibly simple and lacking in the most basic of features. This really needs updated.

4. Marking system- It's going to be hard to organize raids/ have pvp battles when you can't mark monsters/people. For the single player game, this isn't important but for any type of competitive mmo's, it's going to present problems. Again, I understand people don't want the immserion to be broken but mmo'ers need this. I don't want to wipe dozens of times in a raid because of we don't have the tools to organize the fight. Maybe "good communication" is key, but in massive battles, how are you going to tell your comrads to target the healers when there are a hundred people on screen. It'll be utter chaos, no one will know which guy to target first or they might not be able to find the guys at all.



TLDR:// Devs need to put more emphasis on the mmo functionality of this game if they want it to last overtime.

I agree with everything ya said, excellent post we need Marking system and all the rest ya suggest.

zaria

The problem with chat bobbles / nameplates, is more the account name/ character name issue, had that today, meet with friend to deliver some crafted items, his character name was totally different from account.
Feel this causes more issues than using character names, perhaps with an link from character to account in lists.
An option for chat bobbles would not hurt.

Action house: as i understand an action house with mega server will drop prices to npc merchant prices for everything except the very rare stuff who on the other hand will be very expensive, problem is that everybody will use the same AH and most players are just interested in selling their stuff fast and move on.

Marking system would not hurt,

Laura

the main problem with this game is they released a buggy mess and refuse to communicate or apologize for the issue. Not to mention not extending the early access for there most loyal customers (the one who bought physical imperial) I am a huge fan girl (sift through my posts) and I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth.

griffn

Distrobomb wrote: »

I'm sick of they need to do what the others are doing if they want success. I just can't take this seriously. Sorry.

It's about not "reinventing the wheel". There are what we now consider core mechanics that should be implemented in every mmo game, it's about improving.

A lack of a feature, is not a feature in it self, and right now eso is lacking a lot of basic things.

Melian

The "RPG crowd" are not the short term players, the powerlevelers are. They'll chew through all the content, without really appreciating any of it, long before any new content is added.
The players you're demonizing will still be having fun exploring level 30 zones when the "MMO players" have moved on due to lack of endgame content.

Also, I thought chat bubbles were mainly something roleplayers wanted...

Korah_Eaglecry

Gohlar wrote: »

knightblaster wrote: »

It's more that many of us are *very* resistant to introducing elements from other MMOs that have been deliberately left out here, for good reason.

I know, it's perfect. I mean optional nameplates? The game would be completely destroyed. We can't give players that kind of power.

I think suggesting things should be considered an exploit and removed.

See. To imply that people against your ideas are of the extreme variety only makes you look exactly like what youre calling others.

No one thinks nameplates will destroy anything besides immersion. Maybe. Just maybe. People are tired of the cookie-cutter MMO build. And theyre willing to give Zenimax the benefit of the doubt here. Give Zenimax a chance to prove that what we've come to know as MMOs are just one variety and doesnt mean all MMOs have to be that way. That MMOs can thrive without all of these things people are claiming to be essential to MMOs. Nameplates arent essential. And to claim your opposition is implying that your wants are going to destroy the game. Only reflects that your argument is truely weak.

soalrism

TLDR:// Devs need to put more emphasis on the mmo functionality of this game if they want it to last overtime.

no! devs need to stay at their opinion! nobody needs another clone-game

mutharex

Guys we know you gonna leave after the free month is over anyways, so what's the point? Alienate the only people who are going to play this game long term?

Sallakat

The nameplates are a prio on my list. I come from an MMO that had several servers and it was really important for the community (in my eyes at least) to know other guilds and other people in your server, to make friends with other guild members etc, just to know 'what's up' and 'what's happening' in the community.
Now with this mega server thing going on in ESO I think the nameplates are even more CRUCIAL because there are so many ppl around. How will you ever get the sense of community if everyone (even your own guild mates for crying out loud!!!) are just a blue health bars in your monitor??

JD2013

So, you think the game needs saving by turning it into a clone of every other MMO?

mutharex

JD2013 wrote: »

So, you think the game needs saving by turning it into a clone of every other MMO?

Yeah considering that every other MMO that tried cloning WoW has either flopped or had to go freemium...

Pixie123

Lalai wrote: »

Agree with most of it.. the only point I think I slightly disagree with is the guild stores. From talking with people in my trading guilds, and using the guild store, the store's interface leaves a lot to be desired. Things are sorted by price, with no search option to find exactly what you need, and gear is included with Materials (as are recipes). There's no way to divide materials up into the profession you're actually searching for, so the system ends up very cumbersome to use versus just asking in guild if anyone has any of x item for sale or trade.

I think the system will have a much better chance, and things will sell much better, once the Guild Store interface is up to par (which I am really hoping they will improve upon after launch is sorted).

Whether their system has more pros than cons compared with an AH, we really have to wait to see. I'm hopeful if only cause I find the whole trading bit a more social experience which I personally like.

Anyway, nice points, and thank you for presenting them in a civil way.

I agree with this i would say however that chat bubbles and nameplates should be optional toggle, that way everyones happy.

Nox_Aeterna

It is very simple OP , people had to pay for 1 month to get 1 for free , so for the first 2 months , tons will play.

Now , after that 2/3 first months , we will see , if this ship starts to sink , they will try to save it , if they still got enough players supporting it , then they will continue this path.

Personally , even i have spent by now thousands of hours in the whole TES franchise , when it comes to MMOs i miss the usual features.

Well , made it easier to ignore most of the players and play it almost like a single player game hehe. Only down side is that im skipping those group dungeons for now.

MercyKilling

I'm a long term MMO player and I do not want chat bubbles or name tags or markers.
Probably the only thing I agree with that's in the OP is a centralized market that's not tied to being a member of a guild to participate and utilize.

1) I hate nameplates above heads. Completely ruins the aesthetic of things.
2) I hate chat bubbles for the very same reason. I can use a chat box and simply make a fresh chat tab that only has say, tell and group. Zone chat in every MMO is toxic, and I stupidly thought this game might be different. Newp.
3) I completely agree with. There's no way to "even out" pricing. Zone chat sells items that have a zero vendor value for hundreds or even thousands of gold..and nobody is undercutting them...because there's no centralized market system. Just a bunch of independent guilds that might or might not have a store from day to day due to fluctuating keep possession.
4) Third party voice communication coordinates raids and PvP. All the guild spam I'm seeing that is PvP centered requires some kind of voice chat program from its members. No need for marking when you can simply TELL your team to "concentrate on the healers".

Still, the OP took some time to put his/her thoughts and concerns out in the open, and I commend that. Good job.

zaria

I wonder if not loot tables is an lar

mutharex wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

So, you think the game needs saving by turning it into a clone of every other MMO?

Yeah considering that every other MMO that tried cloning WoW has either flopped or had to go freemium...

And this is an surprise because? Why not play wow instead of an copy.

mutharex

zaria wrote: »

I wonder if not loot tables is an lar

mutharex wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

So, you think the game needs saving by turning it into a clone of every other MMO?

Yeah considering that every other MMO that tried cloning WoW has either flopped or had to go freemium...

And this is an surprise because? Why not play wow instead of an copy.

Funnier thing, every time a game that even remotely resembles wow comes out, there is an outrage because "the players want something different".

Then something different comes out and there is an outrage because it's not wow.....

And about optionals: NO. Why? because the core experience should stick to the devs vision for the game, and who's to say what goes in as optional? And if we put chat bubbles why not name tags? Or minimap? Or an AH? Or 4 rows of 20 slot hotbars? Slippery slope. the game can be improved but that doesn't mean transforming it into a run of the mill mediocre MMORPG. You wanna modify the UI? Use addons!

spyritwind

Maybe the crafters in the guild could ... I dunno ... trade with each other? >< I know it's a crazy idea, but maybe we should give it a try :P Old school barter and trade system. Gold (money) is a more convenient way to 'trade', but that leads to other problems as others have mention. Gold is just a way to get other things we want. It might be better to trade the armor you make to some one that can make the sword you want. Traditional auction houses end up getting taken over by a few people and manipulated. I will admit though that the AH appeals to the single player a lot more though. With out an AH it's seeming like a guild is even more important. The game is supposed to be about adventuring and not about the stock exchange though right? I'm loving the immersion and old school feel. An economy will work it self out in some fashion. Most likely the devs will add something to assist that at some point. Less gold farmers running around sucking up all the resources and the manipulating an auction house sounds perfect to me. An option for guildies to be recognizable might be nice, but considering that you can join 5 guilds and there could be hundreds of people in each guild that may not mean much. You may have too many people that your character recognizes even though you have no idea who they are. Name plates? ACK! I suppose as a toggle for those that want it. A marking system would be handy for raids though.

tallenn

Agree almost 100% with the OP. The only reason I say almost is I'm not interested in chat bubbles, but I wouldn't care if they were added. I'd just turn them off.

OP is right though. Single player gamers will finish the PvE content, and most will leave. (Some) MMO players will play as long as PvP feels fun, but as the game is now, it doesn't have much in the way of long term prospects. As much as I dislike them, hardcore PvE players are the ones that play and pay month after month, and year after year. Without them, an MMO simply cannot stay sub-based.

For myself, I'll play until I've finished the single player PvE content and probably at least some of the group content, then will stay as long as I'm enjoying PvP. Without some of the things mentioned in the OP's post, that won't likely be long.

ESO is fun for now, but as it stands right now, I don't see it being a long term success.

Vikova

griffn wrote: »

It's about not "reinventing the wheel". There are what we now consider core mechanics that should be implemented in every mmo game, it's about improving.

A lack of a feature, is not a feature in it self, and right now eso is lacking a lot of basic things.

This is what's wrong with MMO players that are coming here from other games. The sheer arrogance of declaring that the game you came from had "core mechanics" that should be implemented in every MMO is just staggering.

If someone feels this way and can't get over it, they should just simply leave ESO - they did not just some how leave out "a lot of basic things." They intentionally left things out because they are doing things differently.

Edit:
I have to add more to this because I think it is the fundamental issue with a lot of the whining threads.

WoW did not create some form of Newton's Laws for MMOs that established "core mechanics" for all future MMOs. It set a temporary standard for the genre out of sheer popularity. This popularity was not based on definitive mechanics that cannot be veered from.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with attempting to create a different kind of MMO that is based upon a different style of play. The writing has been on the wall for a long time that WoW clones cannot be the future MMOs and thus the genre has been in a reinvention phase with companies attempting different approaches - and players looking for different approaches.

tallenn

First of all WoW didn't create ANYTHING. Almost nothing about WoW is unique or original. What they did, and the reason they have been so successful, is they took good features found in other games, sometimes improved upon them, and used them. There's very little about WoW that wasn't pioneered in some other game, or by WoW's fans themselves.

In fact, many of the UI features you see in WoW and other games, including ESO, started out as WoW Addons. Quest tracker? check. Single bag inventory? check. Inventory sorting and filtering? check. Marking of mobs with symbols? check. There are probably many more I've forgotten about, but every single one of those features, most of which are in ESO too, were first created by gamers in World of Warcraft, as an addon. WoW and most other MMOs wisely adapted those features that were most popular as part of their default UI. Popular UI features are popular for a reason.

Vikova

tallenn wrote: »

First of all WoW didn't create ANYTHING. Almost nothing about WoW is unique or original. What they did, and the reason they have been so successful, is they took good features found in other games, sometimes improved upon them, and used them. There's very little about WoW that wasn't pioneered in some other game, or by WoW's fans themselves.

In fact, many of the UI features you see in WoW and other games, including ESO, started out as WoW Addons. Quest tracker? check. Single bag inventory? check. Inventory sorting and filtering? check. Marking of mobs with symbols? check. There are probably many more I've forgotten about, but every single one of those features, most of which are in ESO too, were first created by gamers in World of Warcraft, as an addon. WoW and most other MMOs wisely adapted those features that were most popular as part of their default UI. Popular UI features are popular for a reason.

Good point, though I think it is worth noting that the benefit to addons is they remain optional. Integrating them into a permanent UI takes some of the choices away from players. In the case of ESO, there are many TES fans that take their minimalist UI seriously and were very concerned their screen would become cluttered with information. I personally think it is a great idea to keep UI minimalist and let the addon community do its thing they do so well.

Strigoimare

For one, I like that TESO is distancing itself from the common mould, at least in some aspects.

I frankly love the fact that the game doesn't have nameplates and chat bubbles as a standard. I do think it breaks immersion and adds a lot of clutter in hubs. But, I'd have no problem if this was developed later on as an option. As long as it's not forced down my throat, I'm ok with it.

I am enjoying the lack of an AH, to be honest. AHs tend to create a cartel around prices, and they remove human interaction (which can be problematic at times, I'll admit). The game is so young, and the trade patterns are still being developed. I think we'll eventually have some sort of trade hub. Do we need it now? Not really, no.

TESO so far managed to deviate a bit from the beaten path, and It is 100% understandable that some people will miss some MMO staples and amenities. But I think we'll be able to work around those just fine (as we are already doing).

Some tweaks are really necessary, such as better sorting through the item interface. But I am willing to give them time. Also, I am also curious to see just where the modding community can take the current interface without any updating from ZO.

Let's be a little more patient, here.

illuzian

If anything I'd like to see more of the MMO core gone from this game. More ways to level, eg through crafting(so it gives you core levels not just skill levels). How about bag capacity based on weight not the immersion breaking slots.. How about get rid of soft locking/tab targeting completely? How about making levels more insignificant and remove softcaps so I can actually have stats like a level 50?

I'd love to see an AH because it's convenient but if there was a way to make it more sociable I'd prefer this.

Nameplates I don't care for, as far as I'm concerned an enemy is an enemy, there are addons for that though.

Chat bubbles... no thanks

This is a game I can say I'm looking forward to trying occulus with because it's an actual simulated world, it's not some race to level cap where all I have to look forward to is eternal gear grind towards the dead end of having no more gear to acquire.

This game has significant content that will keep people stimulated for a long while, I don't think it's perfect and think there's been a few bugs, in a way the fact that they've adhered to the MMO 'core mechanics' will probably be what sees me off if I get bored of the game.

If you want a game with the MMO core mechanics go play a game that already has them eg. WoW. There's plenty of games that fulfil this role and we need more MMOs that do things differently.

The more developers try to copy the success of WoW the more people will say "WoW is better I'm going back to it.". I don't want to game with the core MMO gamers, I want to game with gamers who like to enjoy different content instead of theorycraft and endless dungeon raids, sure you get enjoyment out of guilds etc but can't gamers who like a different play style also have this?

This is of course all my opinion, you ex-WoW/ex-Rift/ex-whatever players have a fine selection of games already, let the gamers who enjoy a bit more immersion have that instead. This game feels like a step in the right direction for me anyway.

crislevin

name plates and chat bubble? sure, as long as there is an option for each player to toggle it off on his/her screen, I am fine with it.

AH and others, sure.

Any options would be good, as long as they are optional. There are many people play this for immersion, solo, storyline, lets at least not make it impossible for them.

Granz

I fear that no name plate will give no guild recognition and will hurt the community immensely. Seeing a guild in PvP is critical to the community. I can't even tell if someone is in a guild to do recruitment. This is huge miss with this game. IMO this needs to be added in ASAP.

griffn

RakeWorm wrote: »

I have to add more to this because I think it is the fundamental issue with a lot of the whining threads.

WoW did not create some form of Newton's Laws for MMOs that established "core mechanics" for all future MMOs. It set a temporary standard for the genre out of sheer popularity. This popularity was not based on definitive mechanics that cannot be veered from.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with attempting to create a different kind of MMO that is based upon a different style of play. The writing has been on the wall for a long time that WoW clones cannot be the future MMOs and thus the genre has been in a reinvention phase with companies attempting different approaches - and players looking for different approaches.

I am sorry but you just shot your own argument in to the ground, I'll explain why.

let's set down some ground work first, is world of warcraft the most popular subscription based mmorpg? That is an irrefutable fact, it is the behemoth of the genre, it has picked off competitors left and right.

Let's then follow your argument, if world of warcraft was not the originator of all the features we come to expect in an mmorpg, then what was it that made the game successful? Perhaps they improved upon existing mmorpg a like Everquest? Retained what was popular and ditched what wasn't?

So it only goes to reason those features that have made the game successful would be mmo staples? I mean if it is something that existed since the Stone Age of mmorpg, now this goes back to what I was saying about not "reinventing the wheel"

I must then repeat, that a lack of a feature is not a feature in it self.

Also just because something is unique does not necessarily makes it good, you wouldn't develop turn based combat for a FPS game, but I feel like the Devs are trying to create a single player game with multiplayer, rather than an mmorpg.

mutharex

Some people think their logic is iron strong, and then they go and write a full paragraph of 12 years old syllogisms....

Noth

griffn wrote: »

RakeWorm wrote: »

I have to add more to this because I think it is the fundamental issue with a lot of the whining threads.

WoW did not create some form of Newton's Laws for MMOs that established "core mechanics" for all future MMOs. It set a temporary standard for the genre out of sheer popularity. This popularity was not based on definitive mechanics that cannot be veered from.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with attempting to create a different kind of MMO that is based upon a different style of play. The writing has been on the wall for a long time that WoW clones cannot be the future MMOs and thus the genre has been in a reinvention phase with companies attempting different approaches - and players looking for different approaches.

I am sorry but you just shot your own argument in to the ground, I'll explain why.

let's set down some ground work first, is world of warcraft the most popular subscription based mmorpg? That is an irrefutable fact, it is the behemoth of the genre, it has picked off competitors left and right.

Let's then follow your argument, if world of warcraft was not the originator of all the features we come to expect in an mmorpg, then what was it that made the game successful? Perhaps they improved upon existing mmorpg a like Everquest? Retained what was popular and ditched what wasn't?

So it only goes to reason those features that have made the game successful would be mmo staples? I mean if it is something that existed since the Stone Age of mmorpg, now this goes back to what I was saying about not "reinventing the wheel"

I must then repeat, that a lack of a feature is not a feature in it self.

Also just because something is unique does not necessarily makes it good, you wouldn't develop turn based combat for a FPS game, but I feel like the Devs are trying to create a single player game with multiplayer, rather than an mmorpg.

WoW is as big as it is because it came at the perfect time with a new angle supporting casual play. The features and core mechanics were not what made the game successful. Games that have did similar things or even out right copied WoW do badly. It just shows that WoW is an outlier in the genre, not the norm, nor the direction that MMOs have to head in.

Also have you ever played any of the might and magic games? They are FPS style games that are turn based.

Vikova

griffn wrote: »

it is the behemoth of the genre, it has picked off competitors left and right.

It is a dying hegemon, yes.

griffn wrote: »

then what was it that made the game successful?

It came at the right time and was based on a popular RTS series. It could have been done by any big company. There is absolutely nothing unique about WoW that caused its success. It was timing.

griffn wrote: »

Also just because something is unique does not necessarily makes it good, you wouldn't develop turn based combat for a FPS game, but I feel like the Devs are trying to create a single player game with multiplayer, rather than an mmorpg.

This is simply because you define MMO as "WoW." As such, maybe you should go back to it.