The Long Term Future of ESO, A Constructive Analysis

SadisticSavior

The "problems" you cited with this game are really not all that different from EQ1. And can be handled the same way...with periodic events and associated expansions.

There is plenty of room left for growth and improvement. The Law system is coming, we can add player housing, further refinements to crafting and combat, ect..

Enteum

marty83 wrote: »

Striken7 wrote: »

what do you think will happen once all of the single player RPG crowd moves on?

F2P here we come!

I started to play wow because I played Warcraft 1,2 and 3 and I stuck around for 5 years I'm wondering if there will be a few who do the same thing.

Very good analogy @marty83

Hadria

you want everything that the other mmos have go play those leave us to this beautiful creation of a game.

rwsavageb14_ESO

There is an addon that puts an ICON next to players showing if they are a friend or guildmate. Friend shows on their left, guild shows as a shield on right, if both a friend and guildmate shows both. My main issue is account names instead of character names in guilds - I have no idea when I get an invite from someone if they were just the person asking for a group in guild chat until I get in the group and ask "are you so-and-so from the guild chat?". Annoying... And, you cannot right click a guild members account name in guild chat and invite them to a group

zbcole

My main issue is account names instead of character names in guilds - I have no idea when I get an invite from someone if they were just the person asking for a group in guild chat until I get in the group and ask "are you so-and-so from the guild chat?". Annoying...

-
QFT - that is the most annoying piece in this game. I have to know guildies by the one name I don't care to know them as.

whardisonb14_ESO

I think you make some really good points, however:

Zenimax has obviously attempted to break from the typical MMO mold here. There are obvious design choices (not just oversights) that were made to make the game look and feel a certain way.

The choice was deliberately made to have as a few non-game environment pixels as possible. I love it. Chat bubbles and nameplates and minimaps and mouseovers and obvious targeting reticles are things I do not miss. The small active quest list, compass and chat window are all the UI they wanted on the screen when your action bar was down.

Again, this was a deliberate design decision made to keep things looking and feeling a certain way. Think of it like food: you can have a pizza that you think is delicious and a pizza you didn't like the taste off. Just because you didn't like how it tasted doesn't mean it was made poorly. Maybe you didn't like the eggplant on it - this is a subjective Priority, not an objective measure of quality.

As for the economy: Thank Talos there is no AH or 'economy' - crafting is meaningful and there is no push to farm stuff to sell to be able to buy whatever you need. Resources are plentiful and I use things I make more often than I use quest rewards. Think of other games you've played - the one's I've played have made PvE drops or PvP rewards the only goal and it required mounds of time to farm whatever you needed to succeed at either of those.

No auction house is a GOOD thing - I honestly have very little I use my gold on, and though it's still needed, I get to focus on being an adventurer instead of having to do stuff that isn't fun to get money or materials for things I don't want. This game ALSO allows you to be a merchant. If you run a big merchant guild and have control over parts of the market that people want to interact with - great! But they're not making it the key portion of the game that it's become in other games.

Also, with a de-emphasis on money and economy - gold sellers see much less of a margin. What's bad for gold sellers is good for us

Tyrrus52

The game does need a different economic system. Guild stores don't work, because all you have to do is share with the guild for free to get what you want. If you don't own a keep, you can kiss public sales bye-bye altogether. I'd love to see an AH. Loving the game btw! For the Pact!

Laerian

I believe that the single player rpg group probably won't quit as easy. However I agree with the points the OP made.

Chat bubbles and nameplates can be optional, I don't know why people is afraid of something that can be turned off/on.

Those trading guilds are castles on the sand. The lack of an AH plus those insane money sinks are the perfect storm. No, I'm not saying that the AH must be global; one per zone.

Dominion

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

1.) 5 Guilds would equate to large nameplates...You can just as easily place your crosshairs over a person to get their name. And when grouping their names appear on your screen.

2.) Chatbubbles are unnecessary. I know its hard for people with experiences in past MMOs to break themselves of feeling the need to have things they had in other MMOs....But theyre unnecessary here. Theres Zone Chat/Whisper/Guild/Group Channels. All of which work perfectly fine for this.

3.) The game has chosen to go a different route with Selling Items. Its been 5 days. I seriously doubt you have any sort of indepth experience or statistics to reflect in an 'analysis' this early.

4.) This is something that could easily be developed by the team as a Group Leader Ability...The easiest way to do this is to highlight whatever mob the Group Leader is Marking and place an Icon above the Mobs head.

I get that you want to improve the game. But most of these points youve made have been discussed in great detail and there are solid reasons for their choice to go the opposite route. It does not gimp the MMO experience...It simply requires the player to be more attentive.

I personally couldnt agree more with EVERYTHING you just said. Its a "Elder Scrolls" MMO, did you have chat bubbles in Skyrim or Oblivion? Nope. Nameplates? Nope. First and foremost its a Elder Scrolls game then a MMO which I think they did perfectly.

A ingame Auction House ruins anyone ability to think smart and make fast trades. I made 16 thousand gold within the first day just by selling motifs, there is no way I would have been able to do that in a Auction House economy as EVERYONES pricing is listed which ruins any profitable or "dirty" trades. The only thing i'd like to see in the game at all added is possible preview of items.

Rizerax

Audigy wrote: »

Call it an old school system if you like, but again the question - Aren't we all tired of cookie cutter MMO´s, like wow where you are max level in an hour and from this day on only a raid schedule decides when and what you play?...

And for those TESO was made, we don't need another wow, we just don't. People are tired of those wow clones, at least I am ...

Its the same attitude wow currently suffers under. People cant play without those tools and helping additions as they never learned it. I can assure you that I raided high end in a world class guild, I did play on pvp tournaments and never used those tools. It is possible, you just need to try it.

Thank you Audigy for summing up everything I feel about the "I want this to be more like WoW" posts - which is exactly what the OP was asking for. I DO NOT want another WoW clone. Why I was looking forward with this so much, is all that I wanted was a multiplayer Elder Scrolls game, and they so far, are living up to that legacy.

Let Zenimax try something different for a MMO. That is part of the appeal for many people.

It isn't even launch day so how do you or anyone else know what will or will not work? And if it turns out that this game isn't for the traditional MMO's - THAT'S FINE! I would love a game that is different. We will never break the WoW mold if we never allow developers to try something different.

EzikielStorm

Audigy wrote: »

Chars at TESO all look different, I yet have to see a char that looks like the other - it would be a huge coincidence. Your friends you will easily id by their looks, guilds you will by the tabard they are wearing.

Im sorry but I stopped reading right here, because you have obviously not been in the same game for the last few days...

If you had actually played you would very quickly understand that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to ID your friends by their looks, for one many people look exaclty the same. Most Elves I have seen so far on my faction have the same hair style and colour as me, its rather depressing actually I almost want to reroll just for that reason alone.

Have you seriously tried your ID friends by their looks in a town? Actually towns are depressing, hundreds of people clumped around the bank and crafting tables, all stood there on top of and inside of each other, and all eerily silent and zombie like. Its deffinatley NOT immersive. And good luck finding your mates in that mess.

EDIT... I forgot to say I agree with the OP 1000000%

Laerian

Dominion wrote: »

A ingame Auction House ruins anyone ability to think smart and make fast trades. I made 16 thousand gold within the first day just by selling motifs, there is no way I would have been able to do that in a Auction House economy as EVERYONES pricing is listed which ruins any profitable or "dirty" trades. The only thing i'd like to see in the game at all added is possible preview of items.

The login/logout game is thinking smart?

Actually, yes an AH would ruin that in benefit of those who don't know the little secret.

SoulSeekerUSA

@Audigy, all those things were fine 15 years ago but that is the point, we are now 15 years beyond that. I want quality of life type things available in a current MMO, I don't care to go back to those times. I don't understand why anyone would? Especially the geeks that play this game, people it is s video game, cutting edge stuff. That is like getting a $5,000 stereo system and listening to records.

mutharex

Yesterday I went to a steak house, but I really wanted pizza. So I asked for one and to my surprise the waiter told me that they didn't have one, they only had grilled meat. Of course, in my rights as a customer, I politely complained that that was unacceptable when so many other places in town serve pizza. He then had the guts of telling me, the customer, that those places sold pizza because they had a different type of business and product! So what? If so many have pizza, then why can't you have pizza too? I asked.

They then proceeded to eject me from the restaurant, telling me to go to a pizzeria if I wanted a pizza! It ell you, they gonna close soon. No pizza... cmon

Stoob

jmido8 wrote: »

2. Chat bubbles- Another feature that isn't in this game for immersions sake and it doesn't seem possible to make an addon for. This also plays a huge role in the social aspect of a mmo and it's almost intertwined with nameplates. It's bad enough we don't have obvious visual markers to find friends & guildmates but it's almost impossible to notice when people are speaking around you. I have tried countless times to ask nearby players about a quest using the /s but no one ever responds and you can't blame them. They have no indicators that you're talking and /s talk gets lost in the spam of this awful chat function.

Personally, I think Chat Bubbles are a BAD idea. Though it may help socialise with people nearby, it also brings in the issue of a lack of visual ability. For instance, If you walked into the main city, and were passing through the town center, Or if you were trying to speak to a merchant which is surrounded by a crowd, The chat bubbles would interfere with your line of sight and you'd not be able to find this merchant or see anything within the area.
As it is, The difficulty of speaking to a merchant which is surrounded by a crowd is treaturous and causes issues. Add text and speech and this issue would become more irrite for the players, and cause multiple complaints and stress to the developers.

whardisonb14_ESO

Now that I think about it - there is a huge de-emphasis on player comparison in this game.

Every other MMO drives play time by using old, tried and true tactics of human envy and fear of missing out.

ESO seems to be trying to break that trend entirely by giving the game enough depth (so far) to make the STUFF YOU DO be meaningful instead of the STUFF YOU GET.

It just hit me and it's, by far, my favorite part of the game so far.

Gedalya

At least with toilet paper I get my money's worth and it lasts for months.

How?! I go through toilet paper like crazy; it's shelf life at my house is less than a week and I buy the jumbo packages. This is especially true during the summer months when a healthy diet of chitlins and pickled pigs feet are the norm.

mutharex

SoulSeekerUSA wrote: »

@Audigy, all those things were fine 15 years ago but that is the point, we are now 15 years beyond that. I want quality of life type things available in a current MMO, I don't care to go back to those times. I don't understand why anyone would? Especially the geeks that play this game, people it is s video game, cutting edge stuff. That is like getting a $5,000 stereo system and listening to records.

Records, on a 5000$ stereo, would actually sound a lot better than CD, as any amateur audiophile could tell you.

Bansheebott

I agree with chat bubbles.

And I say this not as a hardcore MMO player (Which I am certainly not, I played WoW for a couple months, but never reached Lv. 60), but because it's so much easier to tell who is /say-ing what, and draws your attention to the fact there *is* someone actually talking to you.

I don't want to have to focus my attention on the chat box (which will typically be scrolling by with /zone, /trade, gold spammers, etc. unless I setup a filter web, which has its own annoyances) to talk with someone in my face. It doesn't help that the box is to the left of the screen. Chat bubbles don't just tell you what someone is saying, they let you know a talk is actually taking place without you having to divert your attention from the world, which is what you're going to be focusing on 90% of the time.

Heck, I'd argue bubbles are more "immersive" than constantly receiving psychic messages.

Nameplates: I don't see any reason for them, and never have. Maybe because I'm the kind of person who can remember a face or general appearance, and in the case of NPCs, their location. I don't see why I or anyone would need to know every player's name. (Which, with that many names flying around, I doubt you'd remember exactly who was who without going out of your way to remember their name anyway.) Some guild recognition would be nice though, but that would be fine with the current mouse-over only nameplate system we have. Just allow characters to set their Title as their guild rank. That'd encourage creative (or laughably stupid) ranks, and more recognition of rank among guild members themselves.

Guild Stores: I do see a bit of a problem with this. But part of it I think is that players are just trying to force what they know from other games to be compatible with this vastly different system, which doesn't make sense to me when people complain. I mean, A Quake player wouldn't say there's something wrong with Battlefield because you die in 3 shots from a tiny pistol, even though they're both FPSs. However, something I think the guild store system could benefit from is Guild-To-Guild trading. That way, you can have Crafter Guilds who can sell their wares to middleman Trader Guilds who will sell to their own "Subscriber" members (Players who are part of the Trader Guild simply to buy) as well as consumers in cyrodiil. That way, Crafters (or any other type of producer) will always have someone to sell to, and merchant players always have supply, and people to sell their (marked-up) wares to. Personally, I think a more "organic" economy (assuming the players can pull it off) like that is far more interesting than any auction house I've experienced.

I don't have an opinion on the PVP marking, and I don't know how much it matters since from my experience it's all a zerg-fest anyway where it doesn't matter who dies as long as someone dies.

Bloodmonarch

jmido8 wrote: »

What I believe is a pressing issue for ESO is its long term goal.

I'm sorry but you really can't be taken seriously when you talk about the long term playability of the game and the only things you mention are:-

Nameplates,
Chat bubbles,
Marking mobs,

and an economy that we have no idea about how well it will work. It might turn out to be the best economy ever, for all we know.

The good sign in all this is, if that's you're only concerns about the long term playability of the game, don't worry, we've got a long term game on our hands

Gohlar

mutharex wrote: »

SoulSeekerUSA wrote: »

@Audigy, all those things were fine 15 years ago but that is the point, we are now 15 years beyond that. I want quality of life type things available in a current MMO, I don't care to go back to those times. I don't understand why anyone would? Especially the geeks that play this game, people it is s video game, cutting edge stuff. That is like getting a $5,000 stereo system and listening to records.

Records, on a 5000$ stereo, would actually sound a lot better than CD, as any amateur audiophile could tell you.

You just can't beat analogue.

cat09tails

I'm personally glad there aren't chat bubbles and 1000s of names floating around in the air. It makes my experience more personal. Not to mention the lag factor involved.

I also like the idea of not having a central AH. Too easily exploited. There are some large crafting guilds out there, so I don't think there will be a lack of choice in materials offered.

I, for one, am a solo type player who enjoys occasionally grouping with others. Creating a chat tab just for Group chat and speaking with each other in voice chat is fine with me for communication purposes. I guess I also buck the trend of quitting early, as I've played the same game for 3 years, and mostly as a solo player without a guild.

coryevans_3b14_ESO

Bloodmonarch wrote: »

jmido8 wrote: »

What I believe is a pressing issue for ESO is its long term goal.

I'm sorry but you really can't be taken seriously when you talk about the long term playability of the game and the only things you mention are:-

Nameplates,
Chat bubbles,
Marking mobs,

and an economy that we have no idea about how well it will work. It might turn out to be the best economy ever, for all we know.

The good sign in all this is, if that's you're only concerns about the long term playability of the game, don't worry, we've got a long term game on our hands

Omg so much this ^^^^^^

Audigy

SoulSeekerUSA wrote: »

@Audigy, all those things were fine 15 years ago but that is the point, we are now 15 years beyond that. I want quality of life type things available in a current MMO, I don't care to go back to those times. I don't understand why anyone would? Especially the geeks that play this game, people it is s video game, cutting edge stuff. That is like getting a $5,000 stereo system and listening to records.

I fully understand your argument about this, its the same argument I brought up in regards of D3. I didn't want a D2, but many felt that D3 needed to be a D2 so to speak. They didn't want to evolve, but stay in the past with just a graphical update.

It might look stupid to now attack what I did defend for so long at the Blizzard forums, but to me having a game that gives me a fun environment for an MMO back, just is more after my liking than just another wow game and I am sure many people think alike. If they are more or less than those who would be pleased with just another wow, I cant tell.

Btw. who says that TESO might not start a new trend again? We have that in hair styles, clothes, bags, boots etc. all the time. What was once good, comes back and maybe TESO is exactly this.

I fully understand where you are coming from, I argued in the exact same way at D3. But I did so, because I felt D2 was flawed because of the old system. Ultima, DAOC and other games from the 90´s early 2000´s however, were not flawed in my opinion, but they defined a whole genre.

That said,

finding a common agreement, for instance having a hair stylist like we know it from wow is fun and actually even goes along with the TESO story and immersion. Its a quality of life addition, just like for instance flame arrows could be to mark a spot in a raid.

I am sure we can keep the immersion of TESO, the old school feeling and still have quality of life changes.

The best example is our bank, wow doesn't even have this after 11 years... this is the evolution that in my opinion makes sense and does good for old and new gamers. Also being able to join 5 guilds is quite "new" if we look at just the recent games like wow, swtor etc.

To however be able to mark a mob with a red cross like at wow, to see everyone´s dps so it can be spammed in all chats, to see everyones "chars stripped down to items, skills, achievements in an armory..." is just a bit too much.

Wow has become more to a job because of the constant "prove your worth" and I find this is wrong for a game. Games shouldn't be another RL, yes they should let you dive into them, but if you must write a CV to join a raid, if you must stand at a test dummy for an hour to get a trial spot, if you must be afraid to be kicked due a DPS meter... then this cant be fun for Casuals or players that don't want to be in a high end competitive environment while playing.

I think we should let ZO go their current way, maybe they succeed or they don't. We cant know without trying, what we know however is that every wow clone failed and went F2P.
I say, lets try it a different way - we got nothing to lose

Murra

There are a lot of good points here.

1. Nameplates should be an option to toggle, much like auto-loot and hide helmet. I think near everyone has said this here, lol. Nameplates though, regardless of immersion, are cumbersome. This could be the artist in me talking, but they just seem tacky and out of place to me in every game I'm seen them in. But I get the need for them, and players should have the option or at least the ability to make the mod.
2. Sorry, I disagree with you here. Chat bubbles are a bad idea. Lots of potential for trolling. And just like the nameplates, they would get in the way. Again, maybe this could be a toggled option for people who do want them. Now I don't know how many people have done this, but in the main chat window I have disabled Zone chat, that way I can catch if someone is trying to say or whisper something to me. I might be a minority on this though.
3. The Economy thing might be a tad early to tell. I see your point though. They do need to fix up the AH in the guilds anyways to make them easier to use.
4. This is actually a really good idea. I cannot tell you how many times my brother and I played during the beta and he would attack the wrong guy and we would just get swarmed in the dungeons. And it would be an optional thing that players didn't have to use, so it wouldn't break any immersion.

Also I would like to point out that not every player that plays for the plot will leave once they "finish" the game. I'm not a "serious" mmo player at all, but I play the same games for years. I played WoW and EQ alone for years without a guild/group/friend and didn't do raids or anything big group oriented, and I still had tons of fun. I get that I might be a rare type of player, but I know that there are more people like me too. Maybe not enough, but we do exist.
Plus, this is a MMO. No one can "finish" the game really, and those players that would leave might stay for new content, if ZOS is fast at delivering it. Even if they're not, these people might return for the new content. Basically they'd likely be a yo-yo.

Froobert

Great pointers if you want to see what I said read this: It'll probably give you ideas or cheer you up on how ESO will work out http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/67092/eso-downtime-honesty-the-future#latest

Srugzal

Inversus wrote: »

Hello, this is the questions and answers forum. How may I help you?

I get that there's no general discussion, but whyyyy is this here.

There is never going to be a shortage of people who think they're qualified to redesign the game.

Getorix

I agree with the OP on just about everything. Immersion is great, have at it. But don't force me to be immersed with you. I want to see where the merchant npc is and not have to pan around through 50 players to find one where an E pops up and hope that npc is a merchant.

And the economy is going to need a fix really fast, those guild stores are as close to useless as can be. If they insist on this bad ah system they at least need to ban linking items in zone chat and only allow it in guild, tells and trade channel, or maybe confine it to major cities.

Stoob

Inversus wrote: »

Hello, this is the questions and answers forum. How may I help you?

I get that there's no general discussion, but whyyyy is this here.

To be fair, It's not actually just a Questions and Answers section of the forum, This is for Players to discuss with other players about the game.

Attorneyatlawl

Striken7 wrote: »

He's spot on. This game very much lacks what long term MMO players want, including not only his points but others as well. Unless they get these people to pay up $15 every month, what do you think will happen once all of the single player RPG crowd moves on?

F2P here we come!

So very true. I particularly spearheaded the arguments like these on the beta boards for many many months, but many were in the honeymoon and general "beta, wooooo, yes man to the devs" phase and other than the other top end players I never gained as much traction as I had wanted to with these ideas. It's basic mmo stuff because it works, not because everyone throws them in for no reason. Options are good and if you don't like them you can turn them off, no harm done to you. As far as nameplates and guild tags, let the user select which guild to display like gw2 did, problem solved. Nothing revolutionary here people.

Glad to see people getting it finally now that they're paying for the game.