Hero Engine is failing us.

Theist_VII · October 15

Over the last couple of years, it has become quite clear that the Hero Engine is throttling progression of The Elder Scrolls: Online.

We have gone from two quarters of dungeon packs with a chapter and a zone to explore, to a dungeon pack and chapter with a new system, to only an update of a previous one.

Development should be ramping up, not down.

Owned by Microsoft, a company that just moved their flagship IP from Slipspace to Unreal, one can’t help but wonder if ZOS should be moving their assets to Unreal in kind?

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/248546/halo-the-new-era-begins/#:~:text=It lacked content, had in,content due to the engine.

"Moving to Unreal Engine has so many benefits, let me explain. First, the engine is a lot more universal for staff to work on, it's the default engine across learning game development and is incredibly powerful and reliable. Keep in mind that Unreal Engine will also be modified to work on the games, much like how The Coalition use Unreal Engine for Gears of War. Speaking of The Coalition, moving to Unreal also allows internal teams to jump on and help with development and content, so expect The Coalition to help Halo Studios in the near future with game development etc, something that would be harder to do with the current Slipspace. So, adding the best experts with Unreal Engine into the game development can do wonders for a game, and no one knows Unreal better than The Coalition. This change will not only improve the visuals of Halo, it will also guarantee faster release content, more content and even more games."

Sluggy · October 15

This argument pops up occasionally. Let me quell it right here. This doesn't make sense from a business OR a technical point of view. One does not simply "switch engines" or "rewrite an entire live game". Indeed, swapping engines is legitimately the same as rewriting the game. Let me explain.

First, I'm assuming we're talking about the servers here as they are a large part of what's wrong with performance. The engine swap in particular makes no sense in this context. There is absolutely nothing built into Unreal by default that would even allow for an MMO of this scale. It would have to be implemented from the ground up. Effectively swapping engines does nothing but require the entire game be re-created. If any code were portable enough to be wired up for use in Unreal it would still have exactly the same issues it has currently and likely many more due to potential unforeseen conflicts between the new system and the old. Everything else would have to be re-created in some new fashion which is as likely to introduce new bugs and to reintroduce old ones. Effectively, swapping engines it the same as re-writing the game from scratch with basically no real benefit except for that "new code smell" that engineers love so much. This doesn't even touch on things like workflows and tooling which is the massively unseen part of any game development process that makes it possible to do anything.

Re-writing the game from scratch. Yeah. Sure. That *might* work. But that's an undertaking of many many years when you already have a technology in place that is currently working good enough to bring in money. There's absolutely zero incentive to risk it when you've already made it. MMOs are notoriously unprofitable so to have one that is already large and successful means you're going to milk it dry as it is. Minimal work to keep it running and keep a critical mass of players engaged is the name of the game here, for better or for worse. They've likely hit the highest possible player engagement they ever will. This is as good as it gets. They best they can do is hold on for as long as possible until it's no longer worth the cost and effort. Where in that situation do you see an incentive to add massive additional cost, technical debts, and risk of failure?

Theist_VII · October 15

Yet with the decline of content releases, it goes without a doubt that working the engine is taxing the process in a way that is not sustainable.

Our developers cannot produce content for us fast enough with Hero where Unreal is extremely easy to work with, so much so, that independent developers are making AA titles, by themselves.

SeaGtGruff · October 15

I think it would be awesome if they could create an ESO 2 using a more robust MMO engine, but unless it duplicated the world and quests of the current ESO and let us migrate all of our characters from here to there, I'd also want to keep playing ESO as it is right now.

And even if they could do that (which I suppose is one of those "slim to none" chances of even being doable, let alone getting green-lit), there would probably be massive changes in the graphical appearance of everything, so the players might be upset that their migrated characters don't look the way they used to in ESO.

Sluggy · October 15

Theist_VII wrote: »

Yet with the decline of content releases, it goes without a doubt that working the engine is taxing the process in a way that is not sustainable.

Our developers cannot produce content for us fast enough with Hero where Unreal is extremely easy to work with, so much so, that independent developers are making AA titles, by themselves.

They've been perfectly capable of pumping out content in the past. The lack of content is a business decision. Not a development one. I've talked before about the long tail so I'm not going to do it here.

Define "Extremely easy". How many man-hours? How much tech? How many art assets? Show me the solo developer creating a large-scale MMORPG that is capable of hosting tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of players simultaneously using off-the-shelf tooling in Unreal. I've worked with Unreal. It's just as much work as any other engine to create things. It has a lot of great features. But I'd never in my life consider using it for the backend of an MMO. Indeed as a solo myself I'd never consider an MMO regardless of the tech. It's not the choice of engine that makes these kinds of projects hard. It's the sheer amount of work required.

Theist_VII · October 15

https://youtu.be/L9qixi858Ag?si=f5hYWC8SPQhpmfyt

Sluggy · October 15

Yes, I get these Udemy-style ads all the time in my youtube feed. A week-long classroom series showing you how to throw some pre-made assets into a scene and trigger them to play some animations and move a camera around is cool. Twenty years ago I would have died to have something like this. But it's a far cry from fullstack game development. And it's a further cry (is that a saying? lol) from a fully function game. Much less an MMO.

Just for the record here, I'm not white-knighting for ZoS. And I'm not trying to antagonize you're feelings toward ESO or ZoS right now. I'm as frustrated as you. But we need to keep our expectations realistic and try to push for goals that could actually happen and would actually benefit us as players of the game. Hoping that somehow magically all of the issues would go away if they just changed technologies isn't going to happen. And asking them for that is just distracting from real problems that do have real solutions that current exist now and can work.

SeaGtGruff · October 15

Okay, but was that an actual 3D environment that a player could run around in freely, or was it basically just a cutscene?

Theist_VII · October 15

“There have been games produced by individual developers using Unreal Engine 5. The engine’s tools and resources make it possible for solo developers to create impressive projects, thanks to its user-friendly interface, Blueprint visual scripting, and assets like Quixel Megascans.

Several notable indie games have been developed by individuals or small teams in Unreal Engine 5, with many showcasing stunning visuals and innovative mechanics. For example:

1. “Mortal Rite” – A solo developer project that blends elements of Souls-like combat and roguelike exploration.
2. “Project Lilith” – Initially started by a solo developer, this dark fantasy action RPG showcases the power of Unreal Engine 5 with realistic environments and detailed character models.
3. “Dreamhouse: The Game” – A house renovation simulator, initially started by a single developer, featuring high-quality photorealistic graphics.

The tools available in Unreal Engine 5, like Nanite and Lumen, significantly reduce the workload for individual developers, enabling them to achieve higher levels of detail and realism without a large team.”

Yet, Zenimax have an entire team of dedicated developers, the things they could accomplish with Unreal would bring ESO up to modern standards, where it’s fallen behind greatly in all categories.

What once made the game innovative, is no longer unique to their product. I don’t just want them to adapt and improve, they need to.

MasterSpatula · October 15

Theist_VII wrote: »

it goes without a doubt that [snip]
Our developers cannot produce content for us fast enough with Hero where Unreal is extremely easy to work with

I'm not sure that's the problem. I think it's simple economics. CPI inflation over the last ten years is approximately 33%. They can't keep producing the same amount of content for the same costs. If they charge the same and produce less, the game slowly dies. If they raise costs, however, there's a solid chance the game quickly dies. The fact that the sub-only model failed shows just how unwilling people are to pay for content. So they chose attrition over immediate disaster.

spartaxoxo · October 15

They aren't limited by hero engine. It lets them make the type of games that they like to make and has been refined in house countless times.

They make sure the game works on old PCs and consoles. Given that this is a 10 year old game and that Covid prevented a ton of people from adapting consoles when the market to do so would have been hot, there's likely too big of a chunk of their playerbase still on old PCs and consoles to be able to afford to cut them loose. Because "What can they make?" isn't just about their engine. It's also about what their customers are using and money.

Elvenheart · October 15

Theist_VII wrote: »

“There have been games produced by individual developers using Unreal Engine 5. The engine’s tools and resources make it possible for solo developers to create impressive projects, thanks to its user-friendly interface, Blueprint visual scripting, and assets like Quixel Megascans.

Several notable indie games have been developed by individuals or small teams in Unreal Engine 5, with many showcasing stunning visuals and innovative mechanics. For example:

1. “Mortal Rite” – A solo developer project that blends elements of Souls-like combat and roguelike exploration.
2. “Project Lilith” – Initially started by a solo developer, this dark fantasy action RPG showcases the power of Unreal Engine 5 with realistic environments and detailed character models.
3. “Dreamhouse: The Game” – A house renovation simulator, initially started by a single developer, featuring high-quality photorealistic graphics.

The tools available in Unreal Engine 5, like Nanite and Lumen, significantly reduce the workload for individual developers, enabling them to achieve higher levels of detail and realism without a large team.”

Yet, Zenimax have an entire team of dedicated developers, the things they could accomplish with Unreal would bring ESO up to modern standards, where it’s fallen behind greatly in all categories.

What once made the game innovative, is no longer unique to their product. I don’t just want them to adapt and improve, they need to.

Are these games massively multiplayer online games with persistent worlds and tons of areas to explore, quests to do, and systems with which to engage?

Stafford197 · October 15

The engine does limit them, but not as much as you think. Blame should be placed on the “spaghetti code” within the game itself. In other words, the internals of this game were developed in a disorganized manner and is likely unfixable due to the sheer complexity. To be fair though, ZOS did attempt a foundational code rewrite project at one point to try to rectify some of this but failed. I imagine they had some talented Devs work on that too.

Another issue is Creativity. Why do so many chapter storylines feel entirely formulaic and predictable? Why do all bosses rely on immunity phases in Gold Road? Why is the unique wisp flying free-movement mechanic in Lucent Citadel not present anywhere else in the game?

Here’s a creative idea…. ZOS claimed we could never swim underwater in ESO. Why not apply the wisp free-movement mechanic from Lucent Citadel to mimic this? “Water” in ESO are actually paper-thin planes which appear to be water and force the character into a swimming state once you contact them. So, simply put dark blue/watery effects on our screen when underneath a Water plane, have our character start doing different animations based on our directions, and decorate the underwater area. If we go to the surface of the Water plane we exit this free movement state. There - swimming in ESO!

Now it’s unrealistic to expect ZOS to furnish the entire ocean in this game, but it would be really awesome for maybe a new zone to have underwater areas which functions this way and maybe leads to new treasures and delves.

But anyway, yes the engine has its issues, but I believe poor decision making is a larger factor in how we ended up here.

Theist_VII · October 15

Elvenheart wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

“There have been games produced by individual developers using Unreal Engine 5. The engine’s tools and resources make it possible for solo developers to create impressive projects, thanks to its user-friendly interface, Blueprint visual scripting, and assets like Quixel Megascans.

Several notable indie games have been developed by individuals or small teams in Unreal Engine 5, with many showcasing stunning visuals and innovative mechanics. For example:

1. “Mortal Rite” – A solo developer project that blends elements of Souls-like combat and roguelike exploration.
2. “Project Lilith” – Initially started by a solo developer, this dark fantasy action RPG showcases the power of Unreal Engine 5 with realistic environments and detailed character models.
3. “Dreamhouse: The Game” – A house renovation simulator, initially started by a single developer, featuring high-quality photorealistic graphics.

The tools available in Unreal Engine 5, like Nanite and Lumen, significantly reduce the workload for individual developers, enabling them to achieve higher levels of detail and realism without a large team.”

Yet, Zenimax have an entire team of dedicated developers, the things they could accomplish with Unreal would bring ESO up to modern standards, where it’s fallen behind greatly in all categories.

What once made the game innovative, is no longer unique to their product. I don’t just want them to adapt and improve, they need to.

Are these games massively multiplayer online games with persistent worlds and tons of areas to explore, quests to do, and systems with which to engage?

No, yet nobody is stating that an MMO should be developed by one person.

Only that the engine is easy enough to use, follow the context.

Theist_VII · October 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They aren't limited by hero engine. It lets them make the type of games that they like to make and has been refined in house countless times.

They make sure the game works on old PCs and consoles. Given that this is a 10 year old game and that Covid prevented a ton of people from adapting consoles when the market to do so would have been hot, there's likely too big of a chunk of their playerbase still on old PCs and consoles to be able to afford to cut them loose. Because "What can they make?" isn't just about their engine. It's also about what their customers are using and money.

The following post is detailing the move from Slipspace to Unreal 5. That should give you some insight on the experiences of a developer.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/248546/halo-the-new-era-begins/#:~:text=It lacked content, had in,content due to the engine.

"Moving to Unreal Engine has so many benefits, let me explain. First, the engine is a lot more universal for staff to work on, it's the default engine across learning game development and is incredibly powerful and reliable. Keep in mind that Unreal Engine will also be modified to work on the games, much like how The Coalition use Unreal Engine for Gears of War. Speaking of The Coalition, moving to Unreal also allows internal teams to jump on and help with development and content, so expect The Coalition to help Halo Studios in the near future with game development etc, something that would be harder to do with the current Slipspace. So, adding the best experts with Unreal Engine into the game development can do wonders for a game, and no one knows Unreal better than The Coalition. This change will not only improve the visuals of Halo, it will also guarantee faster release content, more content and even more games.

CONCLUSION: Changes will always worry people, as the saying goes, people don't like change, however in some circumstances, changes are necessary to revive or push forward. People are just not happy with the Halo games we have had recently, even though they all have great highs and lows. Halo is a series that not only has a heavy nostalgia to it, and it is an icon of gaming and is a huge part of many people's lives, and nothing will feel better than seeing this series back to its very best. MS also want Halo to be better, hence the changes. Halo use to offer the perfect game package of having the best SP, MP, Visuals, Sound, Music and Gameplay, so let's see if the Halo Studios can go back to making Halo the best FPS franchise on the market again."

Tandor · October 15

Theist_VII wrote: »

Yet with the decline of content releases, it goes without a doubt that working the engine is taxing the process in a way that is not sustainable.

Our developers cannot produce content for us fast enough with Hero where Unreal is extremely easy to work with, so much so, that independent developers are making AA titles, by themselves.

Are making, or have made i.e. completed and released?

I've come across a lot of "forum developers" over the years, that is posters who identify themselves or people they say they know as independent developers working on new games, but I don't recall any of them ever having completed one. I always wish them well, however, but delivering something as massive as a complete rewrite of ESO across multiple platforms on a new engine isn't remotely in the same league.

Theist_VII · October 15

Tandor wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Yet with the decline of content releases, it goes without a doubt that working the engine is taxing the process in a way that is not sustainable.

Our developers cannot produce content for us fast enough with Hero where Unreal is extremely easy to work with, so much so, that independent developers are making AA titles, by themselves.

Are making, or have made i.e. completed and released?

I've come across a lot of "forum developers" over the years, that is posters who identify themselves or people they say they know as independent developers working on new games, but I don't recall any of them ever having completed one. I always wish them well, however, but delivering something as massive as a complete rewrite of ESO across multiple platforms on a new engine isn't remotely in the same league.

Should I have put a TLDR?

Theist_VII wrote: »

“There have been games produced by individual developers using Unreal Engine 5. The engine’s tools and resources make it possible for solo developers to create impressive projects, thanks to its user-friendly interface, Blueprint visual scripting, and assets like Quixel Megascans.

Several notable indie games have been developed by individuals or small teams in Unreal Engine 5, with many showcasing stunning visuals and innovative mechanics. For example:

1. “Mortal Rite” – A solo developer project that blends elements of Souls-like combat and roguelike exploration.
2. “Project Lilith” – Initially started by a solo developer, this dark fantasy action RPG showcases the power of Unreal Engine 5 with realistic environments and detailed character models.
3. “Dreamhouse: The Game” – A house renovation simulator, initially started by a single developer, featuring high-quality photorealistic graphics.

The tools available in Unreal Engine 5, like Nanite and Lumen, significantly reduce the workload for individual developers, enabling them to achieve higher levels of detail and realism without a large team.”

Yet, Zenimax have an entire team of dedicated developers, the things they could accomplish with Unreal would bring ESO up to modern standards, where it’s fallen behind greatly in all categories.

What once made the game innovative, is no longer unique to their product. I don’t just want them to adapt and improve, they need to.

While AA quality games have been made on U5 by individual developers, they continue to be made.

spartaxoxo · October 15

Theist_VII wrote: »

lThe following post is detailing the move from Slipspace to Unreal 5. That should give you some insight on the experiences of a developer.

None of that address what I said. The reason that the game runs poorly on old PCs and consoles is because of the limitations of those machines, not the engine. ESO is massive because it's a live service game, not something smaller like Halo.

Theist_VII · October 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

lThe following post is detailing the move from Slipspace to Unreal 5. That should give you some insight on the experiences of a developer.

None of that address what I said. The reason that the game runs poorly on old PCs and consoles is because of the limitations of those machines, not the engine. ESO is massive because it's a live service game, not something smaller like Halo.

Old platforms are not part of this discussion.

If you read the quoted section, the realization would have dawned upon you that there are in fact limitations to the engine, or outdated old engines in general.

Slipspace came out in 2018.
Hero came out in 2006.

spartaxoxo · October 15

Theist_VII wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

lThe following post is detailing the move from Slipspace to Unreal 5. That should give you some insight on the experiences of a developer.

None of that address what I said. The reason that the game runs poorly on old PCs and consoles is because of the limitations of those machines, not the engine. ESO is massive because it's a live service game, not something smaller like Halo.

Nobody other than you are talking about old platforms. They aren’t even part of the discussion.

I'm saying that the engine isn't the problem with this game. Your premise is that it's the engine, and I think that's not correct and said what I think it actually is. I based that on dev statements in the past, such as being unable to increase the furniture limit due to old machines.

Another poster also gave their theory on what it is, spaghetti code from early game development. Although they think the engine probably plays a smaller role.

Neither of these things are a problem with using Hero Engine.

Sluggy · October 15

Stafford197 wrote: »

The engine does limit them, but not as much as you think. Blame should be placed on the “spaghetti code” within the game itself. In other words, the internals of this game were developed in a disorganized manner and is likely unfixable due to the sheer complexity.

I mean, let's be real here. All large projects eventually turn into "spaghetti code". You will never ever look back at something you did even a year previous and not think "Oh man! That's a mess! I'll do it so much better this time!".

And when dozens of people are involved it only gets worse. Strangely, people also tend to blame "spaghetti code" on performance issues. That's rarely the cause in my experience. Usually it's the other way around. Clean code and abstractions tend to hurt performance and when you rip all of that out and do some to-the-metal hard-coded nonsense it can make a lot of assumptions that allow for more optimization. Usually I find optimization is the opposite of flexibility.

There's no such thing as unfixable either. You can always fix things. The questions are A ) is it worth the time, money, and effort? And B ) how long before this new fix becomes the old technical debt? I stand by my statement that reduction of content is purely from a buisness standpoint.

There's no technical reason they have to slow developing. Indeed, they've mostly been focusing on code-based systemic content lately rather than asset-heavy ones precisely because it can be cheaper to produce and pave the way for more in the future with minimal investment. Years ago a wise OG game dev I PvPed with said something very telling: Always look at the artwork. When they cut back on that then you know when the long tail is beginning. That's the expensive thing to produce. All I'm saying is that I noticed the move away from hand-painted loading screens around the same time they shifted focus to gameplay systems.

Elvenheart · October 15

If I’m understanding that article correctly, it’s about a studio that is switching from Slipspace to Unreal 5 going forward from that point for new games they develop, not to go back and redo Halo Infinite with a different engine and rerelease it, right? I can see how this could be a good business decision for games going forward if the new engine is better and more efficient and easier to work with. I just don’t think that an existing game with so many moving parts could very easily or even at all be recreated in a new engine because that would be like reinventing the wheel.

Vulkunne · October 15

The Science of programming is the 'what' the art is the 'how'. It's better to have something working than not working however not being able to understand 'why' its working is almost as bad as having something else written in some foreign language that you cannot understand.

Which serves no one aside from the fact that it works. And it's for that very reason that many times in the past, assuming I have the time to do so I like to take something complicated and rewrite it, clean it up, make some sense out of it. The entire point to mathematics is to simplify; to make problems easier to solve, not more complicated. That is the direction of progress, and if you don't value that in your coding then you're just making a mess for someone else like me to come behind you and clean up.

OtarTheMad · October 15

I don’t think it’s the engine entirely. A lot of it is because it’s on old consoles still. You combo that with quick-bandaid-type code to get bug fixes out fast over 10+ years and that will lead to issues.

https://youtu.be/aXIg2Ahndp8?si=W7gg2_5oh1LNM0JM

In that clip Firor says that they will continue to put stuff on older consoles as long as they can but also admits that it keeps them from doing things.

Theist_VII · October 15

Elvenheart wrote: »

If I’m understanding that article correctly, it’s about a studio that is switching from Slipspace to Unreal 5 going forward from that point for new games they develop, not to go back and redo Halo Infinite with a different engine and rerelease it, right? I can see how this could be a good business decision for games going forward if the new engine is better and more efficient and easier to work with. I just don’t think that an existing game with so many moving parts could very easily or even at all be recreated in a new engine because that would be like reinventing the wheel.

Of course it would be time consuming to transfer assets, but it wouldn’t be difficult.

AI cannot create new concepts, only copy artwork, but let me tell you, the levels of detail that modern AI are capable of reaching in replication is near unrivaled.

Working old Hero assets into Unreal 5 through AI would save a monumental amount of time within that process.

fizzylu · October 15

While I can and do acknowledge that the current engine isn't the best and definitely has some big issues compared to the engines of MMOs the same age and even older than ESO.... that is not why they are giving us less and less content.

Erickson9610 · October 15

Stafford197 wrote: »

Why is the unique wisp flying free-movement mechanic in Lucent Citadel not present anywhere else in the game?

Here’s a creative idea…. ZOS claimed we could never swim underwater in ESO. Why not apply the wisp free-movement mechanic from Lucent Citadel to mimic this? “Water” in ESO are actually paper-thin planes which appear to be water and force the character into a swimming state once you contact them. So, simply put dark blue/watery effects on our screen when underneath a Water plane, have our character start doing different animations based on our directions, and decorate the underwater area. If we go to the surface of the Water plane we exit this free movement state. There - swimming in ESO!

Keep in mind that systems in this game are iterated upon. That mechanic from Lucent Citadel was just released with this year's Chapter — for all we know, that could be a precursor to a genuine swimming system added next Chapter or sometime in the future.

Game development takes time. ZOS likely spends multiple years working on systems before they're ready to be included in an update. They've said as much — the two team Battlegrounds were in development for a few years before they were ready to be included in Update 44 this year.

kyle.wilson · October 15

Could be worse. ES6 is being built on Creation Engine 2. Which is the abomination that gave us Starfield.
Unreal 5.5 looks so much better in almost all aspects that I don't understand why anyone would spend the time and effort to develop an inferior product for substantially more money.

WiseSky · October 15

I dont know of a single MMO that changed its engine, if WOW can use its engine for over 20 years what makes us think anything otherwise.

kyle.wilson · October 15

Just remember though, ESO launched as a 32bit game long after 64bit had become the standard.

Theist_VII · October 16

WiseSky wrote: »

I dont know of a single MMO that changed its engine, if WOW can use its engine for over 20 years what makes us think anything otherwise.

WoW has seen a significant drop in population, and was hemorrhaging players from Cataclysm up until Dragonflight.

12 million active players in 2011.
4 million active players in 2020.

8 million 15 dollar monthly subscriptions that were thrown away because World of Warcraft refused to move forward. Thank you for that example.