ZOS, these invincible guards need changes to the increasing damage that is scaled to health

spartaxoxo · September 27

This is not cheating because guards vs players isn't a combat game. It is an escape game. You have to get away before you're killed.

Arunei · September 27

Guards being unkillable in single player games doesn't equal guards being unkillable in MMOs.

Also OP, please look up the definition of cheating and then tell us that ZOS is cheating when it's their actual game design. How is that cheating? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's cheating.

You aren't meant to kill the guards, which should be obvious by their health and the scaling damage they do over time. You're supposed to avoid/evade them. Again, don't like it, that's perfectly fine, but not liking something and not thinking it's fair doesn't mean it's cheating.

At that point any mechanic like one-shots or invincibility phases would be cheating. Immunities to certain damage or CC would be cheating. Any number of things we don't like and are annoying would be cheating.

VouxeTheMinotaur · September 27

there's no way OP is serious with this post... right?

TaSheen wrote: »

You don't like the way this works?

Find another game.

I don't understand what the big deal is. Maybe stop getting caught? Lol

Sallymen · September 27

Lol? Just escape from them? Not sure how you are able to die to them unless you stand your ground to fight them which is already dumb since you can't kill them.

I_killed_Vivec · September 27

Who gets killed by guards? A forty yard dash and they are out of breath!

amig186 · September 27

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

To go beyond the OP's posts - who is probably trolling - I pretty much agree that guards should be beatable.
You could kill guards in Morrowind.

You could kill guards in Oblivion.

You could kill guards in Skyrim

Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive. I'd be more in favor of a mechanic that greatly increases the player's bounty for having killed a guard, and/or the appearance of reinforcements. Immortal guards are as frustrating as invisible walls.

All of the above are single player games where nothing you do affects other people. Should you be able to kill every NPC in a single player game, yes, absolutely. But if you're playing with other people you ought to consider that not everyone will enjoy walking around perpetual ghost towns because a player was bored and decided to nuke the place. It would be even more immersion breaking if you were talking to a quest NPC asking you to investigate some new threat to the local populace, when there's already a far more immediate one in the form of a random player with nothing better to do.

JiubLeRepenti · September 27

amig186 wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

To go beyond the OP's posts - who is probably trolling - I pretty much agree that guards should be beatable.
You could kill guards in Morrowind.

You could kill guards in Oblivion.

You could kill guards in Skyrim

Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive. I'd be more in favor of a mechanic that greatly increases the player's bounty for having killed a guard, and/or the appearance of reinforcements. Immortal guards are as frustrating as invisible walls.

All of the above are single player games where nothing you do affects other people. Should you be able to kill every NPC in a single player game, yes, absolutely. But if you're playing with other people you ought to consider that not everyone will enjoy walking around perpetual ghost towns because a player was bored and decided to nuke the place. It would be even more immersion breaking if you were talking to a quest NPC asking you to investigate some new threat to the local populace, when there's already a far more immediate one in the form of a random player with nothing better to do.

You can basically do it to most NPCs. So if you want to nuke a city, you can.

Well, in fact, no, you can't at all, since they'd respawn after a few minutes.

So what would it concretely change if you could do it with guards? They'd respawn after a few minutes. That’s it.

I don't really see why it would be a problem.

kargen27 · September 27

DenverRalphy wrote: »

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

You know what's really cheating? Accidentally picking up a stupid trash sword while turning in a daily, being seen by lame invincible gaurd and not being able to escape because you can't go through doors while stuck in combat.

Guards ought to have stupid high health and be very hard to kill, but still be killable.

For an ameteur perhaps. But yes, you can escape through a door while guards are after you. You just have to have not been hit by a guard or fought back for a certain length of time. I've accidentally aggro'd guards in single floor buildings and managed to get out a door numerous times. Just gotta be quick and smart about it.

Easiest way to do it is run behind something long (like a bar) then half way round jump over it. The guard will have to continue to run around the bar giving you time to escape out the door. Where it gets bad is when a 2nd guard gets involved in the chase and isn't right next to the first guard.

Back to the opening post. The guards are doing you a favor by one shotting you. Your death if you stand to fight is inevitable. They alleviate the suffering and the expenditure of wasted time by just popping you in one fell swoop. Really considerate of them if you think about it. They could just toy with you for their own amusement.

amig186 · September 27

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

To go beyond the OP's posts - who is probably trolling - I pretty much agree that guards should be beatable.
You could kill guards in Morrowind.

You could kill guards in Oblivion.

You could kill guards in Skyrim

Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive. I'd be more in favor of a mechanic that greatly increases the player's bounty for having killed a guard, and/or the appearance of reinforcements. Immortal guards are as frustrating as invisible walls.

All of the above are single player games where nothing you do affects other people. Should you be able to kill every NPC in a single player game, yes, absolutely. But if you're playing with other people you ought to consider that not everyone will enjoy walking around perpetual ghost towns because a player was bored and decided to nuke the place. It would be even more immersion breaking if you were talking to a quest NPC asking you to investigate some new threat to the local populace, when there's already a far more immediate one in the form of a random player with nothing better to do.

You can basically do it to most NPCs. So if you want to nuke a city, you can.

Well, in fact, no, you can't at all, since they'd respawn after a few minutes.

So what would it concretely change if you could do it with guards? They'd respawn after a few minutes. That’s it.

I don't really see why it would be a problem.

Sure, you can, but then what. No crafting, no trading, because the robocop guards will be on your case immediately. I think you underestimate the number of people who play GTA games just to go on a rampage and see how long they can hold off the cops and the army. I can guarantee that if the guards were killable, that kind of spectacle would be a daily occurence. And I get it, it's a power fantasy thing. As for the respawning, you've probably noticed that the NPCs tend to respawn before the game deletes their previous body. Now picture that, multiple times, everywhere, plus all the guard bodies.

JiubLeRepenti · September 27

Sure, you can, but then what. No crafting, no trading, because the robocop guards will be on your case immediately. I think you underestimate the number of people who play GTA games just to go on a rampage and see how long they can hold off the cops and the army. I can guarantee that if the guards were killable, that kind of spectacle would be a daily occurence.

Ok but... Concretely, why would it be a problem? Or at least, why would it be a biggest problem to see a player mass killing guards rather than mass killing other NPCs?

Not baiting or what, I just sincerly don't get your point.

yourhpgod · September 27

so it is a combat competition with the guards. Because there so many avenues of escape.

Therefore, the only way to actually get destroyed by them is standing and fighting. Which I'm trying to get changed because I prefer the standing and fight in a stand and fight battle. In which even if you're not trying to do this they use gap closers and lock downs.

Remember this is The Elder Scrolls Online, and the slogan is play your way.

There is gear you could equip that in no way should you lose except by this unfair mechanic of damage scaling.

Its tested. Proven. That there is damage scaling based off of health. Which I been over on this thread.

For those that do not understand I have been playing for years. I know the mechanics behind this crime and justice system. I'm explaining the unfair advantage of this.

Because you can't win against these guards there are things that need to change.

CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE:

Your bounty should never increase in fighting these guards because you can not win. IF and only if they stay as invincible state.
IF they remain in game your bounty should be eliminated on death.
Their health needs to be scaled to actually be able to kill them because they fit in the competition by that they are trying to prevent you from , stealing, killing, on a large scale. Yes there are avenues for those that wish to play this way of running away.

IF they weren't trying to prevent you from completing your game loop of stealing and killing then they wouldn't be in game.
Like I said , they serve no purpose other than this because all quest NPC are non-killable NPC meaning you can't target and kill them. It becomes a competition when a "carrot" ie gold , achievements, such as the mass murder achievement, amount of gold someone can steal , so forth. Then it becomes and unfair advantage if a player wants to stand and fight.

Again I know the whole just run from the guards mechanic you can even stealth from them. Its much quicker. Yet, it defeats what I'm trying to get accomplished in doing so.

spartaxoxo · September 27

It is not a stand and fight battle.

yourhpgod · September 27

notyuu wrote: »

1: learn to stealth better.
2: you're not meant to fight the guards.
3: the damage they do actually scales with time, not max health.
4: Do enough damage agsaint a guard long enough and you'll get to see their "riot control" attack which is unblocakble, undodgeable, area attack that does up to 40k damage per hit and gets spammed.

No this in inaccurate it does scale off health and I have tested this. See above.

kargen27 · September 27

yourhpgod wrote: »

so it is a combat competition with the guards. Because there so many avenues of escape.

Therefore, the only way to actually get destroyed by them is standing and fighting. Which I'm trying to get changed because I prefer the standing and fight in a stand and fight battle. In which even if you're not trying to do this they use gap closers and lock downs.

Remember this is The Elder Scrolls Online, and the slogan is play your way.

There is gear you could equip that in no way should you lose except by this unfair mechanic of damage scaling.

Its tested. Proven. That there is damage scaling based off of health. Which I been over on this thread.

For those that do not understand I have been playing for years. I know the mechanics behind this crime and justice system. I'm explaining the unfair advantage of this.

Because you can't win against these guards there are things that need to change.

CHANGES THAT NEED TO BE MADE:

Your bounty should never increase in fighting these guards because you can not win. IF and only if they stay as invincible state.

IF they remain in game your bounty should be eliminated on death.

Their health needs to be scaled to actually be able to kill them because they fit in the competition by that they are trying to prevent you from , stealing, killing, on a large scale. Yes there are avenues for those that wish to play this way of running away.

IF they weren't trying to prevent you from completing your game loop of stealing and killing then they wouldn't be in game.
Like I said , they serve no purpose other than this because all quest NPC are non-killable NPC meaning you can't target and kill them. It becomes a competition when a "carrot" ie gold , achievements, such as the mass murder achievement, amount of gold someone can steal , so forth. Then it becomes and unfair advantage if a player wants to stand and fight.

Again I know the whole just run from the guards mechanic you can even stealth from them. Its much quicker. Yet, it defeats what I'm trying to get accomplished in doing so.

You can play your way. You can stand and fight. And the guards play their way. They give you a few love taps to try and nudge you into running then getting bored of the fight just end it. It's them playing their way while you play your way. You want a duel they want to play tag.

yourhpgod · September 27

so lets keep this on topic. It needs to be a winnable fight while standing and fighting. Due to all the circumstances i've laid out why its a one sided fight.

The running from a fight does not fit all 3 traditional roles.

IF I Wanted to roleplay a tank that picks pockets and fights guards all while ONLY standing and fighting .

It fits the dps , if they wanted to run. The healer role, if they couldn't out heal the damage and were forced to run . As a tank it makes no sense running from a fight.

And again it serves no point but to prevent you from game loops that are encouraged. Again GREEN LABLED NPC , CAN NOT BE KILLED.

Therefore its like a brick wall on a game loop (stealing and killing which is encouraged) that doesn't need a brick wall.

Its one the main reasons why I personally do not go into those game loops on a regular basis because of these invincible guards. Now its not the only deciding factor but its the HUGE one that makes the most difference.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 27

amig186 wrote: »

If the guards weren't as they are now, there'd be nothing to keep all the murder hobos in check. Every town would be a mass grave 24/7. Does that sound appealing?

Do you really think the guards are all that is stopping that? if someone is killing all the NPCs they are probbaly on an NB or something and using invisibility, guards are a non-factor for those types of people.

kyle.wilson · September 27

He tried to mug a guard. lol

yourhpgod · September 27

kyle.wilson wrote: »

He tried to mug a guard. lol

I'ma go try that right now. If you can , that's even more reason why they shouldn't be invincible. In Skyrim you can pickpocket guards.

amig186 · September 27

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Sure, you can, but then what. No crafting, no trading, because the robocop guards will be on your case immediately. I think you underestimate the number of people who play GTA games just to go on a rampage and see how long they can hold off the cops and the army. I can guarantee that if the guards were killable, that kind of spectacle would be a daily occurence.

Ok but... Concretely, why would it be a problem? Or at least, why would it be a biggest problem to see a player mass killing guards rather than mass killing other NPCs?

Not baiting or what, I just sincerly don't get your point.

It's not one rather than the other, it's both. Maybe we don't share the same sense of immersion and whatnot, but for me that kind of thing would just be offputting. Any sense of the game world being an orderly, civilised place (parts of it, anyway) would go right out the window. It just sounds like a crapshow to me.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

If the guards weren't as they are now, there'd be nothing to keep all the murder hobos in check. Every town would be a mass grave 24/7. Does that sound appealing?

Do you really think the guards are all that is stopping that? if someone is killing all the NPCs they are probbaly on an NB or something and using invisibility, guards are a non-factor for those types of people.

Yes, because even for an NB there are some areas where it's impossible not to get a bounty.

yourhpgod · September 27

For this test I was on my tank. I had to clear a bounty of 2k first using counter fit edicts.

I suggest making sure no NPC can see lol

You can pickpocket invincible guards so they are in that game loop that is encouraged .

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 27

amig186 wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Sure, you can, but then what. No crafting, no trading, because the robocop guards will be on your case immediately. I think you underestimate the number of people who play GTA games just to go on a rampage and see how long they can hold off the cops and the army. I can guarantee that if the guards were killable, that kind of spectacle would be a daily occurence.

Ok but... Concretely, why would it be a problem? Or at least, why would it be a biggest problem to see a player mass killing guards rather than mass killing other NPCs?

Not baiting or what, I just sincerly don't get your point.

It's not one rather than the other, it's both. Maybe we don't share the same sense of immersion and whatnot, but for me that kind of thing would just be offputting. Any sense of the game world being an orderly, civilised place (parts of it, anyway) would go right out the window. It just sounds like a crapshow to me.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

If the guards weren't as they are now, there'd be nothing to keep all the murder hobos in check. Every town would be a mass grave 24/7. Does that sound appealing?

Do you really think the guards are all that is stopping that? if someone is killing all the NPCs they are probbaly on an NB or something and using invisibility, guards are a non-factor for those types of people.

Yes, because even for an NB there are some areas where it's impossible not to get a bounty.

Your missing the point, these people do not care about having a bounty because it does not effect them, guards cannot kill them when they are always invisible, as I said they are a non-factor to the types of players who go around killing NPCs.

notyuu · September 28

yourhpgod wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

1: learn to stealth better.
2: you're not meant to fight the guards.
3: the damage they do actually scales with time, not max health.
4: Do enough damage agsaint a guard long enough and you'll get to see their "riot control" attack which is unblocakble, undodgeable, area attack that does up to 40k damage per hit and gets spammed.

No this in inaccurate it does scale off health and I have tested this. See above.

Are you an NPC? Cuz guards to 20% of an npcs max hp per hit (yes, even world bosses)
but Vs players the first few hits are tickle damage but it rapidly ramps up until you get 1-Slapped.

Also, again, learn to crime stealthier.

also good job on the troll post, got quite a few people, including myself at one point.

amig186 · September 28

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Sure, you can, but then what. No crafting, no trading, because the robocop guards will be on your case immediately. I think you underestimate the number of people who play GTA games just to go on a rampage and see how long they can hold off the cops and the army. I can guarantee that if the guards were killable, that kind of spectacle would be a daily occurence.

Ok but... Concretely, why would it be a problem? Or at least, why would it be a biggest problem to see a player mass killing guards rather than mass killing other NPCs?

Not baiting or what, I just sincerly don't get your point.

It's not one rather than the other, it's both. Maybe we don't share the same sense of immersion and whatnot, but for me that kind of thing would just be offputting. Any sense of the game world being an orderly, civilised place (parts of it, anyway) would go right out the window. It just sounds like a crapshow to me.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

If the guards weren't as they are now, there'd be nothing to keep all the murder hobos in check. Every town would be a mass grave 24/7. Does that sound appealing?

Do you really think the guards are all that is stopping that? if someone is killing all the NPCs they are probbaly on an NB or something and using invisibility, guards are a non-factor for those types of people.

Yes, because even for an NB there are some areas where it's impossible not to get a bounty.

Your missing the point, these people do not care about having a bounty because it does not effect them, guards cannot kill them when they are always invisible, as I said they are a non-factor to the types of players who go around killing NPCs.

Still need to decloak to do writs, get quests etc. But let's say for the sake of argument that you're right and they can ignore any amount of bounty because they can just run around invisible. With killable guards you can extend that to all classes, no need to hide when you can just kill any guard that comes after you. Need to do writs or pick up a quest? Just exterminate everything in the vicinity and leave before guards respawn.

Kisakee · September 28

If guards and green NPC's would become killable you'd never do any quests in many cities again as there would be no quest NPC alive and nobody to stop you from spawn killing them.

SeaGtGruff · September 28

We are not supposed to be able to kill guards (except for the ones in Cyrodiil), and if you attack them or try to flee then it just makes them angry, and the more angry they get, the more they want to kill you. Resistance is futile, unless you can successfully flee from them— which isn’t terribly difficult to do much of the time. In the immortal words of Duke Leto Atreides, “RUN!!!!”

zaria · September 28

amig186 wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

To go beyond the OP's posts - who is probably trolling - I pretty much agree that guards should be beatable.
You could kill guards in Morrowind.

You could kill guards in Oblivion.

You could kill guards in Skyrim

Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive. I'd be more in favor of a mechanic that greatly increases the player's bounty for having killed a guard, and/or the appearance of reinforcements. Immortal guards are as frustrating as invisible walls.

All of the above are single player games where nothing you do affects other people. Should you be able to kill every NPC in a single player game, yes, absolutely. But if you're playing with other people you ought to consider that not everyone will enjoy walking around perpetual ghost towns because a player was bored and decided to nuke the place. It would be even more immersion breaking if you were talking to a quest NPC asking you to investigate some new threat to the local populace, when there's already a far more immediate one in the form of a random player with nothing better to do.

This, still people find ways to annoy others. Remember in WOW it was an gnome auction house handler.
And someone put his male dranei, an large race in an robe on top of the gnome so no one could access him.

TaSheen · September 28

zaria wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

To go beyond the OP's posts - who is probably trolling - I pretty much agree that guards should be beatable.
You could kill guards in Morrowind.

You could kill guards in Oblivion.

You could kill guards in Skyrim

Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive. I'd be more in favor of a mechanic that greatly increases the player's bounty for having killed a guard, and/or the appearance of reinforcements. Immortal guards are as frustrating as invisible walls.

All of the above are single player games where nothing you do affects other people. Should you be able to kill every NPC in a single player game, yes, absolutely. But if you're playing with other people you ought to consider that not everyone will enjoy walking around perpetual ghost towns because a player was bored and decided to nuke the place. It would be even more immersion breaking if you were talking to a quest NPC asking you to investigate some new threat to the local populace, when there's already a far more immediate one in the form of a random player with nothing better to do.

This, still people find ways to annoy others. Remember in WOW it was an gnome auction house handler.
And someone put his male dranei, an large race in an robe on top of the gnome so no one could access him.

Yeah. And remember the mammoth mounts on top of mailboxes?

huskandhunger · September 30

I would like guards to be able to be killed, but then instantly respawn

Trejgon · September 30

amig186 wrote: »

Still need to decloak to do writs, get quests etc. But let's say for the sake of argument that you're right and they can ignore any amount of bounty because they can just run around invisible.

A tiny bit correction here, coming from personal experience - you can do your daily writs with active bounty and on any class without having to confront guards with a sneaking build. Just need full medium armor, two sets up picking between night mothers embrace (5p), darloc brae(4p), or Night terror (3p) (may be more sets that I forgot about, but you only need 2 if you are not khajit, khajic can drop a set or cp node iirc), and you are virtually invisible when crouching. Need to actually collide with guards hitbox to get detected.

Personal experience in question was me doing writs in necrom after doing daily endeavours during guilds and glory celebration event, and not all pickpocket attempts were successful, so I ended up with decent heat and bounty by the time I got the endeavour done.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 30

kyle.wilson wrote: »

He tried to mug a guard. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8tYE4daL54

I am sorry, I had to...

Btw.... I have an idea how to fix night/morning cap in Cyro...