ZOS, these invincible guards need changes to the increasing damage that is scaled to health

RealLoveBVB · September 26

bmnoble wrote: »

Only time it annoys me is on the rare occasion they one shot you when your fleeing.

There is a math behind it. If you "trigger" the same guard 3 times, it's doing the ranged one-shot attack.

Theist_VII · September 26

10/10 best thread of 2024.
Never change, @yourhpgod.

Theist_VII · September 26

Now that we’ve got Spellcrafting from 2014, let’s focus on the promise of a PvP justice system.

Let ME be the guard, and I promise all crime in Tamriel will end in 24 hours.

#GuardCaptainTheistSavesTamriel

yourhpgod · September 26

something like a pvp justice system would be better than invincible guards. That would be cool.

zaria · September 26

yourhpgod wrote: »

By math the guards should not win but the damage scales. Its rigged . Therefor an illegal contest.

Meaning they can't hold anyone to the rules while cheating themselves. Right so there is rules in the TOS about cheating. Right , but hey we make the game we can cheat. No. That's not right.

By all math of this build they should never be able to beat it but with the damage scaling its rigged so you'll always lose. Its tyrannical. Like there are ways around it but thats not what this is about. Its about how the damage is rigged.

You can also not kill guards, back in the old days you could get them down to execute range but then they executed you.
Now escaping is easy outdoors, just run away, Indoors your dead. If you stole something valuable put it on some container and die.

AnduinTryggva · September 26

yourhpgod wrote: »

By math the guards should not win but the damage scales. Its rigged . Therefor an illegal contest.

Meaning they can't hold anyone to the rules while cheating themselves. Right so there is rules in the TOS about cheating. Right , but hey we make the game we can cheat. No. That's not right.

By all math of this build they should never be able to beat it but with the damage scaling its rigged so you'll always lose. Its tyrannical. Like there are ways around it but thats not what this is about. Its about how the damage is rigged.

It is not cheating here but a feature I think. The game design is such that you shall not win against guards. I remember a discussion on killable guards a couple of years ago and iirc the guards are not meant to be killed. I think it is a conscious design decision and not a bug that the only reasonable action is to run and hide from guards and not look for a fight.

AnduinTryggva · September 26

zaria wrote: »

yourhpgod wrote: »

By math the guards should not win but the damage scales. Its rigged . Therefor an illegal contest.

Meaning they can't hold anyone to the rules while cheating themselves. Right so there is rules in the TOS about cheating. Right , but hey we make the game we can cheat. No. That's not right.

By all math of this build they should never be able to beat it but with the damage scaling its rigged so you'll always lose. Its tyrannical. Like there are ways around it but thats not what this is about. Its about how the damage is rigged.

You can also not kill guards, back in the old days you could get them down to execute range but then they executed you.
Now escaping is easy outdoors, just run away, Indoors your dead. If you stole something valuable put it on some container and die.

How do you do something on some container?

tsaescishoeshiner · September 26

Finally, challenging overland. And of course instantly, a complaint thread is born

mdjessup4906 · September 26

You know what's really cheating? Accidentally picking up a stupid trash sword while turning in a daily, being seen by lame invincible gaurd and not being able to escape because you can't go through doors while stuck in combat.

Guards ought to have stupid high health and be very hard to kill, but still be killable.

JavaRen · September 26

yourhpgod wrote: »

something like a pvp justice system would be better than invincible guards. That would be cool.

A world of NO with a side order of OH HELL NO. Open world PvP of any sort will kill this game. And the devs have said that they scrapped PvP justice because it had too much potential for griefing and harassment, not thinking that has changed.

RaikaNA · September 26

Ugrak wrote: »

This discussion reminded me of this madness:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=N51t68pjJXE

NefasQS - So I Got 100 Players to Fight an Invincible Guard In ESO | The Elder Scrolls Online - 19:40

Also there was that time a guard bugged in Elsweyr and one-shotted a dragon.

that was awesome!

Theist_VII · September 26

JavaRen wrote: »

yourhpgod wrote: »

something like a pvp justice system would be better than invincible guards. That would be cool.

A world of NO with a side order of OH HELL NO. Open world PvP of any sort will kill this game. And the devs have said that they scrapped PvP justice because it had too much potential for griefing and harassment, not thinking that has changed.

Just because one iteration of the system didn’t work, doesn’t meant it’s impossible.

They wouldn’t even need to do actual combat, just have instanced teams of thieves and guards, and have some system where you chase and tackle the thieves if you can catch them in the act, and when a certain amount of fencing goods are stolen, the thieves win, and if the time runs out or all the thieves are caught, the guards win.

Wouldn’t even need to be gold as a reward, could be some new unique currency to the game mode that is used to purchase items like Tel Var is.

notyuu · September 26

dragonlord500 wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

1: learn to stealth better.
2: you're not meant to fight the guards.
3: the damage they do actually scales with time, not max health.
4: survive agsaint a guard long enough and you'll get to see their "riot control" attack which is unblocakble, undodgeabke, area attack that does ~400k damage.

wait what? they have a 400K Aoe attack? that's news to me lol

that was a typo, meant to put 40k, as in up to it, anyway how you get it to use the skill is "simple", simply reduce the guards "hp" to zero.

while they might look immortal, if you have a UI replacement installed (such as FTC) you can see the guards actual health value

deplete that and instead of dying they whip out the riot control spam.

amig186 · September 26

If the guards weren't as they are now, there'd be nothing to keep all the murder hobos in check. Every town would be a mass grave 24/7. Does that sound appealing?

Kisakee · September 26

amig186 wrote: »

If the guards weren't as they are now, there'd be nothing to keep all the murder hobos in check. Every town would be a mass grave 24/7. Does that sound appealing?

Only if there's enough NPC's left for me to murder. But eh, i'm killing them anyway. Who cares about guards, they're just an annoyance at this point.

DenverRalphy · September 26

mdjessup4906 wrote: »

You know what's really cheating? Accidentally picking up a stupid trash sword while turning in a daily, being seen by lame invincible gaurd and not being able to escape because you can't go through doors while stuck in combat.

Guards ought to have stupid high health and be very hard to kill, but still be killable.

For an ameteur perhaps. But yes, you can escape through a door while guards are after you. You just have to have not been hit by a guard or fought back for a certain length of time. I've accidentally aggro'd guards in single floor buildings and managed to get out a door numerous times. Just gotta be quick and smart about it.

yourhpgod · September 26

You can't kill quest NPC's so it makes no point

Trejgon · September 26

This has to be the sillies twist on "play how you want" thing I saw this year.

TybaltKaine · September 26

Why would you want to kill quest NPC's?

Sounds like you want to play Morrowind, where you'd have a lot more fun killing everything and running around an empty map.

Tryxus · September 26

amig186 wrote: »

If the guards weren't as they are now, there'd be nothing to keep all the murder hobos in check. Every town would be a mass grave 24/7. Does that sound appealing?

My Necromancer arriving at such a scene:

Animated_Dancing_Skeletons.gif?m=1629825844

"And not a single bounty was incurred. Best day ever"

Artim_X · September 26

Ugrak · September 26

Another thing this thread reminded me is how guards used to be able to emotionally one shot players with their brutal insults.

TaSheen · September 26

JavaRen wrote: »

yourhpgod wrote: »

something like a pvp justice system would be better than invincible guards. That would be cool.

A world of NO with a side order of OH HELL NO. Open world PvP of any sort will kill this game. And the devs have said that they scrapped PvP justice because it had too much potential for griefing and harassment, not thinking that has changed.

Thankfully....

vsrs_au · September 26

yourhpgod wrote: »

something like a pvp justice system would be better than invincible guards. That would be cool.

Right, because that system would never ever be abused by the players.

katanagirl1 · September 26

This is like that thread about players not knowing to bash. They also don’t know that the gold metal health bar means they (guards or bosses in immunity stage) are unkillable and just keep attacking.

JiubLeRepenti · September 27

To go beyond the OP's posts - who is probably trolling - I pretty much agree that guards should be beatable.

You could kill guards in Morrowind.
You could kill guards in Oblivion.
You could kill guards in Skyrim

Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive. I'd be more in favor of a mechanic that greatly increases the player's bounty for having killed a guard, and/or the appearance of reinforcements. Immortal guards are as frustrating as invisible walls.

Heren · September 27

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

[...]
Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive.
[...]

So, you want to kill children ingame, is that what you're saying ?

( It's a joke )

JiubLeRepenti · September 27

Heren wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

[...]
Putting invincible NPCs ingame is, in my opinion, a complete breach of the fourth wall and counter-intuitive.
[...]

So, you want to kill children ingame, is that what you're saying ?

( It's a joke )

Even if it's a joke, well, yea, it'd make sense. At least if there were children in ESO.

There is a reason why the mod allowing the player to kill children in Skyrim was one of the most popular. It just makes no sense to put NPCs in god mode from the player's point of vue. It litterally obliterates the 4th wall.

And it's a proud godfather of a 4-year-old girl who says that

Heren · September 27

While I understand the immersion point being made ( for guards specificaly ), I don't think it's absolutely unbearable to have invincible guards. Others things litterally obliterates the 4th wall too, like :
-Bounty decreasing over time ?
-NPC not warning the guards when they see a criminal ?
-Guards not going for searching operation when a criminal escape ?
-Guards litteraly getting tired after a few meters of chase and just giving up ?
-And also, why do I get bounty when I kill someone with no other witnesses ? Lobbying from the dark brotherhood in order to get their blade of woe used ?
-Also guards in some remote locations. They really must have pissed someone up in the hierarchy to be sent in some of these locations.

To me, the call for killable guards, given the broader context, sound a bit like people wanting their cake and eat it. Sure, it's weird and maybe break some immersion, but it's a game where weird things are bound to be, and immersion will alway be limited and tied to some acceptation / suspension of disbelief. You always have a broader context to take into account.

Not to say things in ESO or others game can't be improve in the immersion category, but it will always be a balance to find between having a 'coherent immersive' world, and having a running world - in terms of mechanics, gameplay, etc. Not saying that invicible guards are absolutely a good thing too. But I don't think that's absolutely unbearable, both in terms of immersion or mechanics.

Anyway i'm happy to discuss these things !

JiubLeRepenti · September 27

Heren wrote: »

While I understand the immersion point being made ( for guards specificaly ), I don't think it's absolutely unbearable to have invincible guards. Others things litterally obliterates the 4th wall too, like :
-Bounty decreasing over time ?
-NPC not warning the guards when they see a criminal ?
-Guards not going for searching operation when a criminal escape ?
-Guards litteraly getting tired after a few meters of chase and just giving up ?
-And also, why do I get bounty when I kill someone with no other witnesses ? Lobbying from the dark brotherhood in order to get their blade of woe used ?
-Also guards in some remote locations. They really must have pissed someone up in the hierarchy to be sent in some of these locations.

To me, the call for killable guards, given the broader context, sound a bit like people wanting their cake and eat it. Sure, it's weird and maybe break some immersion, but it's a game where weird things are bound to be, and immersion will alway be limited and tied to some acceptation / suspension of disbelief. You always have a broader context to take into account.

Not to say things in ESO or others game can't be improve in the immersion category, but it will always be a balance to find between having a 'coherent immersive' world, and having a running world - in terms of mechanics, gameplay, etc. Not saying that invicible guards are absolutely a good thing too. But I don't think that's absolutely unbearable, both in terms of immersion or mechanics.

Anyway i'm happy to discuss these things !

I 100% agree with you on this. All these points are relevant and I would like to see them fixed as well!