Shared pain - harbinger on steroids?

Aldoss

I feel like this set can be balanced really easily with a range limiter, rather than a cooldown. If it has a range of 28m, then it assumes you're actively taking dmg from an attacker.

If someone throws degen on you and runs away, then you're not really struggling and the attacker isn't really a threat anymore.

If you're taking a lot of dmg from multiple attackers within 28m, then you'll have to have a way to heal through it, and it makes way less likely that you can run something like vMA 2H without a pocket healer.

Necrotech_Master

MincMincMinc wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

For some reason ZOS decides to go against their principle that procs can't proc other procs (same with status effects since they're considered procs).

It's your procs can't proc your procs, this never applied to incoming damage, there is plenty of sets that proc on taking damage and they work regardless of how enemy sourced that damage.

The design intent was to stop runaway loops of procs proccing the proc that procs procs. %chance sources could have also solved this situation. However zos wanted it to be easier to numerically compare proc set strength damage vs time vs cooldown......Funny because it just gives players the ability to do simple math and find the meta proc set, instead of it being a cloud of mystery.

Incoming damage sets go off of all incoming damage probably to not have to check every source that comes in.

that is true, but from your own sourced procs

for example, you cannot proc runecarvers blaze from burning/poisoned/hemorrhaging/diseased status effect dots

but, if its 2 different entities, it works a bit different

right now 2 players with leeching plate standing still could basically proc leeching on each other darn near indefinitely

leeching plate procs on taking dmg, and deals dmg to the enemy

2 players wearing this and standing still would basically be permanently sitting in poison puddles, because each players leeching would proc the other players leeching

that situation while a bit unlikely is currently possible in the current game

i think they probably typed shared pain as direct dmg, so that it wouldnt be considered dot dmg, and thus proc off itself from another player wearing shared pain (creating a situation similar to leeching plate, but being unable to avoid it)

Urzigurumash

@Necrotech_Master Right so procs can proc procs, if they're worn on two different players? Can an ally's proc proc your proc or only an opponent's? Harbinger procs off direct damage procs being blocked by its wearer?

I remember planning to test if two players in Harbinger could set off an eternal chain reaction against each other but I never did.

Necrotech_Master

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master Right so procs can proc procs, if they're worn on two different players? Can an ally's proc proc your proc or only an opponent's? Harbinger procs off direct damage procs being blocked by its wearer?

I remember planning to test if two players in Harbinger could set off an eternal chain reaction against each other but I never did.

with current procs available, im not sure if there are any procs an ally could use to proc one of your own procs, as most procs rely on dealing/taking dmg, or casting skills

your other situation though, yes that is possible, harbinger procs off of any blocked dmg, which would be any direct dmg, regardless of source

which actually brings us an interesting situation, if the user of harbinger hit an enemy with a dot, but the enemy was wearing shared pain, whenever the dot triggered shared pain and inflicted direct on the harbinger user, the harbinger proc could go off if they were blocking

to try to explain it out better:

user A wears harbinger
user B wears shared pain

user A hits user B with a dot
user B shared pain triggers from the dot, which inflicts direct dmg on user A
user A blocks, triggering harbinger dealing direct dmg back to user B

it could get even more hands off if the harbinger user was wearing leeching plate:

user B hits user A with an attack, this triggers leeching (aoe dot)
user B taking dmg from leeching could trigger shared pain and inflict dmg on user A
user A also wearing harbinger blocks and triggers direct dmg back on user B

if user B is also wearing leeching, all of these procs could be triggering each other while user A and B stand there doing nothing after that first hit while there is a continuous triggering of leeching->shared pain->harbinger->leeching

even if one of the players moved out of the leeching pool, a shared pain or harbinger proc could restart the cycle

Urzigurumash

Wow that's awesome, that's how it should be, it's more fun than nothing happening in those cases.

Sounds like Harbinger could use a buff then! I can go ahead and spam a beautiful post I made exactly 5 years ago, probably the most beautiful post I ever made:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492314/thews-of-the-harbinger-needs-a-buff

Edit: reading that seems like I was way confused that it would be possible to have it proc off dots, that may have been the case when the set came out and hence it's old language "when you block direct damage", the inability of all dots to be blocked must have not been enforced until after IC came out. As it would turn put once this set was buffed and empowered by Goliah Ult, the set did a wonderful job of punishing Spin 2 Win and Sap Essence spammers, as was the fashion at the time.

Now we've got a ranged Status Effect meta, I definitely see how this new set has its eye towards better global balance the same way Harbinger did. Hence it's massive unpoularity, it devastated the meta.

Necrotech_Master

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Wow that's awesome, that's how it should be, it's more fun than nothing happening in those cases.

Sounds like Harbinger could use a buff then! I can go ahead and spam a beautiful post I made exactly 5 years ago, probably the most beautiful post I ever made:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492314/thews-of-the-harbinger-needs-a-buff

as far as im aware harbinger has always scaled on max hp, which works well in the high hp meta (i know it did get a bit of a nerf back when almost all procs had their scaling changed)

but its still pretty good on some niche builds, and is a great counter for multi-hit direct dmg attacks (such as bow ulti, runeblades, jabs, flurry, for example)

Urzigurumash

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Wow that's awesome, that's how it should be, it's more fun than nothing happening in those cases.

Sounds like Harbinger could use a buff then! I can go ahead and spam a beautiful post I made exactly 5 years ago, probably the most beautiful post I ever made:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492314/thews-of-the-harbinger-needs-a-buff

as far as im aware harbinger has always scaled on max hp, which works well in the high hp meta (i know it did get a bit of a nerf back when almost all procs had their scaling changed)

but its still pretty good on some niche builds, and is a great counter for multi-hit direct dmg attacks (such as bow ulti, runeblades, jabs, flurry, for example)

Last I used Flurry was Orange Text, it's blockable right now?

Harbinger used to scale off Current HP rather than Max. So it got weaker as the tank was whittled. It may have been the first scaled proc actually but nobody ever ran it prior to the 2020 change, hardly anybody had even heard of it.

Necrotech_Master

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Wow that's awesome, that's how it should be, it's more fun than nothing happening in those cases.

Sounds like Harbinger could use a buff then! I can go ahead and spam a beautiful post I made exactly 5 years ago, probably the most beautiful post I ever made:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492314/thews-of-the-harbinger-needs-a-buff

as far as im aware harbinger has always scaled on max hp, which works well in the high hp meta (i know it did get a bit of a nerf back when almost all procs had their scaling changed)

but its still pretty good on some niche builds, and is a great counter for multi-hit direct dmg attacks (such as bow ulti, runeblades, jabs, flurry, for example)

Last I used Flurry was Orange Text, it's blockable right now?

Harbinger used to scale off Current HP rather than Max. So it got weaker as the tank was whittled. It may have been the first scaled proc actually but nobody ever ran it prior to the 2020 change, hardly anybody had even heard of it.

flurry (like jabs) was in a weird state for many years where it was counted for both dot and direct dmg procs, but it was definitively fixed a couple of years ago to be specifically counted as a series of direct dmg hits and is not counted as dot dmg

if was scaled on current hp, that must have been very early after it was released and changed not long after, i knew it became popular for awhile after it was scaled to max hp (before the scaling got toned down)

Sluggy

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

For some reason ZOS decides to go against their principle that procs can't proc other procs (same with status effects since they're considered procs).

It's your procs can't proc your procs, this never applied to incoming damage, there is plenty of sets that proc on taking damage and they work regardless of how enemy sourced that damage.

The design intent was to stop runaway loops of procs proccing the proc that procs procs. %chance sources could have also solved this situation. However zos wanted it to be easier to numerically compare proc set strength damage vs time vs cooldown......Funny because it just gives players the ability to do simple math and find the meta proc set, instead of it being a cloud of mystery.

Incoming damage sets go off of all incoming damage probably to not have to check every source that comes in.

that is true, but from your own sourced procs

for example, you cannot proc runecarvers blaze from burning/poisoned/hemorrhaging/diseased status effect dots

but, if its 2 different entities, it works a bit different

right now 2 players with leeching plate standing still could basically proc leeching on each other darn near indefinitely

leeching plate procs on taking dmg, and deals dmg to the enemy

2 players wearing this and standing still would basically be permanently sitting in poison puddles, because each players leeching would proc the other players leeching

that situation while a bit unlikely is currently possible in the current game

i think they probably typed shared pain as direct dmg, so that it wouldnt be considered dot dmg, and thus proc off itself from another player wearing shared pain (creating a situation similar to leeching plate, but being unable to avoid it)

So all I read here is: "Stuck in combat" is about to become "Stucker in combat" lol

Rhaegar75

seriously guys, this cannot go live as it is - it will generate way too much 'free' damage!!

Necrotech_Master

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

seriously guys, this cannot go live as it is - it will generate way too much 'free' damage!!

todays pts patch already nerfed the largest increase of dmg to this proc (maelstrom 2h) and its dmg is pretty low at base

the only set which would effectively buff its dmg would be draugrkin which would be like +300, on top of its maybe 200 dmg in pvp

CameraBeardThePirate

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

seriously guys, this cannot go live as it is - it will generate way too much 'free' damage!!

It got kinda nuked by removing its interaction with Maelstrom 2h. You could still use Draugrkin or Dragons with it, but at that point you're sacrificing a lot more (another 5 pc) just to eek out some extra damage with a set.

MashmalloMan

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

seriously guys, this cannot go live as it is - it will generate way too much 'free' damage!!

It got kinda nuked by removing its interaction with Maelstrom 2h. You could still use Draugrkin or Dragons with it, but at that point you're sacrificing a lot more (another 5 pc) just to eek out some extra damage with a set.

I'm convinced this stupid set ruined Maelstrom 2H, you can't convince me otherwise. The set has been fine for years, suddenly it's a problem 4 weeks into this PTS. Come on. They could have added a cooldown to this set, changed it to dot damage as they've done with other similar proc sets, or lowered MA 2H's scaling.

Oh well, there goes another fun thing to build around in favour of a boring % multiplier..

SkaraMinoc

Fairly certain this thread is responsible for the Maelstrom 2H nerf.

Aldoss

In full agreement here. MA 2H gets nerfed to make way for a set and plar gets caught in the cross fire with no acknowledgement from the combat team.

Typical ZOS.

Urvoth

Aldoss wrote: »

In full agreement here. MA 2H gets nerfed to make way for a set and plar gets caught in the cross fire with no acknowledgement from the combat team.

Typical ZOS.

Plar AND Necro blighted/disease proc builds albeit more of a pve thing

Rhaegar75

The Nerf to MA 2H is not helpful especially if it's just to make way for a new rubbish broken set. They should have tune down the set and left MA 2H alone