Closing discussion as people still express their concerns on the matter of AI?

Idelise · September 20

I don't know, it feels ill-intended to do so. People expressed their valid concerns and wanted to have a constructive discussion.
Instead, we got one generic post, and no answer to people who asked for clarification on the matter... is that how discussions are handled here? By being stifled?

Necrotech_Master · September 20

according to the post that closed that thread, it was at the request of the OP, not because of zos "stifling" the conversation

Idelise · September 20

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

according to the post that closed that thread, it was at the request of the OP, not because of zos "stifling" the conversation

All the other threads were closed 'because main post' was running though... so you close the side things because of the main thing, which you then close as well?

Syldras · September 20

Yes, it was OP's request. I also think it wasn't a good decision as there were still open questions. I'd especially be interested in details about how the human review process works, because it leads to so many false positives.

Necrotech_Master · September 20

Idelise wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

according to the post that closed that thread, it was at the request of the OP, not because of zos "stifling" the conversation

All the other threads were closed 'because main post' was running though... so you close the side things because of the main thing, which you then close as well?

the OP has the right to want the post closed lol

they were closing other threads because that one was the "main" thread and they were trying to consolidate, if the OP wanted it closed they are obliged to do so

theres nothing stopping you from say opening a new thread and listing the existing info (link to kevins posts) and bulletpoints which you still have questions about to continue the discussion

ArchangelIsraphel · September 20

Rushing around today, so I can't give my usual thoughtful replies, but- I'd genuinely like to know whether getting a false positive leaves a permanent "black mark" on an account, or whether the accounts history is absolved once a decision is challenged and found to be a false positive.

Also, if human review is taking place, then why does it feel as though context still isn't being considered? Are we facing a language barrier with overseas outsourcing?

Food for thought.

Wolfkeks · September 20

OP wanted the thread closed so I guess this is the main thread now

Tandor · September 20

Idelise wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

according to the post that closed that thread, it was at the request of the OP, not because of zos "stifling" the conversation

All the other threads were closed 'because main post' was running though... so you close the side things because of the main thing, which you then close as well?

Again, that was down to the OP.

I personally dislike the ability for OPs to request closure of their threads. Although not the case here, all too often an OP dislikes the fact that not everyone agrees with his point of view and so requests his thread be closed. If, on the other hand, a discussion gets out of hand then that's a matter for the Mods in enforcing the forum rules, not for the OP.

Stafford197 · September 20

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Rushing around today, so I can't give my usual thoughtful replies, but- I'd genuinely like to know whether getting a false positive leaves a permanent "black mark" on an account, or whether the accounts history is absolved once a decision is challenged and found to be a false positive.

Also, if human review is taking place, then why does it feel as though context still isn't being considered? Are we facing a language barrier with overseas outsourcing?

Food for thought.

I can answer only for the first question.

It may not be the same with every case, but I and one other guildie I know of experienced exactly this scenario.

In my case, I was reported for cheating after 1vXing in PvP. My account received a permaban, which was later appealed since I was not actually cheating. The player who reported me was not punished for falsely reporting me. I also received a “final warning” on my account despite the report being proven untrue.

In the case of my guildie, he had unknowingly traded laundered gold. Something along the lines of the gold having been involved with gold selling, passed through other players hands, and then found its way to my guildie. Can’t remember the specifics since it was years ago but he received a temporary ban, which was ended short since he was able to absolve himself of any wrongdoing. However, he received a “warning” for being involved.

So in general, while it may not always be the case, from these experiences it seems an account can gain a “black mark” against it for being caught up in a ban, whether it is our fault or not. This is most likely not always the case but the fact it happens in at least some cases means it is a possibility… IMO this will depend on the discretion/mood of the Support rep handling the case.

Syldras · September 20

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Also, if human review is taking place, then why does it feel as though context still isn't being considered? Are we facing a language barrier with overseas outsourcing?

I still had a whole bunch of questions open regarding this on the other thread:

The question is why that process leads to so many wrong bans. If it's outsourced: Are the people making these decisions reliable? Do they understand the language well, including idioms and colloquialisms? Are they provided enough of the chat to be able to see context (one line only won't help)? Are they flooded with cases so much that they don't have enough time to review them properly?

Also, if they might be paid by the number of cases they close, that would be another reason for them to rush through.

PeacefulAnarchy · September 20

@ZOS_Kevin I think this is a policy that needs to be reconsidered. Allowing people to request a thread be closed should balance the desires of that person with the value of the thread to the community. If people are discussing things still that are relevant to the game then it should remain open. It is a community thread, not the OP's thread. I assume this idea is why we can't close our own threads and need to ask mods to do it in the first place, so moderators should consider that when considering such requests.

AngryPenguin · September 20

Syldras wrote: »

Yes, it was OP's request. I also think it wasn't a good decision as there were still open questions. I'd especially be interested in details about how the human review process works, because it leads to so many false positives.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

according to the post that closed that thread, it was at the request of the OP, not because of zos "stifling" the conversation

Tandor wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

according to the post that closed that thread, it was at the request of the OP, not because of zos "stifling" the conversation

All the other threads were closed 'because main post' was running though... so you close the side things because of the main thing, which you then close as well?

Again, that was down to the OP.

I personally dislike the ability for OPs to request closure of their threads. Although not the case here, all too often an OP dislikes the fact that not everyone agrees with his point of view and so requests his thread be closed. If, on the other hand, a discussion gets out of hand then that's a matter for the Mods in enforcing the forum rules, not for the OP.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/666000/we-dont-need-and-shouldnt-have-to-endure-an-ai-chat-bot-monitor#latest

I didn't ask the mods to close my thread on this topic. The mods closed it, redirected people to the main thread about RP players being effected, then the mods closed that thread. (my post had no reference to RP'ing as this is a game wide issue with chat, not just with RP chat)

So ya, the OP has a very solid point.

Wolfkeks wrote: »

OP wanted the thread closed so I guess this is the main thread now

Juomuuri · September 20

Wrong thread my dude, this is the one the OP asked to be closed: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8190734/#Comment_8190734

ArchangelIsraphel · September 20

@Syldras Hopefully we get some detailed answers regarding the questions you mentioned. Such things should be handled more thoroughly.

Since piece work is not uncommon at all in the customer service industry (sometimes it's even the standard), I definitely share your concern that some rushing is taking place. Especially since I've read that those who provide such services often have the same people handling CS issues for multiple companies at once, and there's a lot of pressure to maximize performance from a single individual.

Syldras · September 20

Tandor wrote: »

I personally dislike the ability for OPs to request closure of their threads. Although not the case here, all too often an OP dislikes the fact that not everyone agrees with his point of view and so requests his thread be closed.

[snip]

I think the issue is done.
We asked the queation. We got our official answer.
Nothing will be done because ZOS is denying the accusations and has said it will not change anything.
Since this thread will do nothing more to enact change @ZOS_Kevin please close the thread.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8190469#Comment_8190469

[edited for baiting]

AngryPenguin · September 20

The take home message is simple.

We already have a profanity filter. So anyone who can't deal with profanity can filter it out of their chat and never see it.

We already have a report player feature. So anyone who is being harassed can easily report the offender.

I also strongly suspect this AI chat monitoring is having a very negative impact on performance. Almost all my disconnects happen while chatting, and I'm plagued with disconnecting these last few weeks plus, and the disconnecting is getting more and more frequent as time goes on.

spartaxoxo · September 20

They always close threads at the request of a poster because those posters don't want the notifications from that thread.

I personally think if something is important enough to get a staff response, it should maybe remain open. But, I can understand the logic, nevertheless.

Anyway, I got most of the clarification I needed. I don't expect them to give out a comprehensive list because it's supposed to depend on context, and also people would just use it to skirt the rules.

Edit

I would like more information on the appeals process though and what checks are in place to ensure players aren't being automatically ruled against. Because doing something akin to shouting at Molag Bal in an empty instance seems pretty obviously not against the rules.

Verling · September 20

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8190954/#Comment_8190954

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The take home message is simple.
We already have a profanity filter. So anyone who can't deal with profanity can filter it out of their chat and never see it.

Filters are not in any way. they often make mistakes. There are variants of sound distortions and transformations of letter-written distortions and transformations of sound distortions. In addition, there is a perverse transformation of a set of letters. There are logical expressions of insults in many languages. There are bundles of words of insults in a certain area. Many phrases of insults have a logical load from knowing some of the meanings of words. It will be a joke for one player. For another, it would be a harsh insult. All filters cannot recognize this.

Syldras · September 20

I wouldn't be surprised if lack of context is one of the biggest problems.

If the reviewer sees only a few lines before and after the flagged line, how would they know it's friends joking, if the whole thing goes on for longer?

I also doubt that in-game location is logged as well, and even if, how would a reviewer unfamiliar with the game know whether it's a private instance or not? So someone shouting insults in the general chat channel while in a private instance would just look like someone shouting insults in general chat - the reviewer wouldn't know if it's in a private instance, alone in a player house, or in the middle of the marketplace of a big city.

Verling · September 20

AngryPenguin wrote: »

I also strongly suspect this AI chat monitoring is having a very negative impact on performance. Almost all my disconnects happen while chatting, and I'm plagued with disconnecting these last few weeks plus, and the disconnecting is getting more and more frequent as time goes on.

We haven't been able to complete the raid trial with necrom for 3 weeks. players lose connection with the server. 3-7 offline periodically

Arunei · September 20

Just gonna cp my question list from the other thread.

1) Why were we not informed of this change? This is a MASSIVE issue, as chat is one of the biggest damn features in an MMO. How would anyone think this wasn't a major addition to the game that needed to be announced?

2) What REAL assurances can we be given that these actions won't be made willy-nilly in the future like they are now? Will agents be held accountable if they take actions against accounts that did not warrant said actions? And no, don't tell us that what happened was the result of new tools and training (talking to the devs here, not Kevin, just a heads-up). Like I said, there shouldn't need to be any sort of advanced training on how to read context.

3) As others have asked, myself included, what terms/phrase/words/etc will get us in trouble? You can't implement a rule and then not explain fully how to avoid breaking it. Will this list take into account the fact that a word might be a slur or crude in one language but is a normal innocent word in another?

4) Will the fact that the filter in-game is ridiculously sensitive? It finds ""naughty"" words by ignoring spaces or considering certain numbers as letters (such as 5 being used in place of an S or 0 for an O or 7 for T)?

Verling · September 20

Arunei wrote: »

4) Will the fact that the filter in-game is ridiculously sensitive? It finds ""naughty"" words by ignoring spaces or considering certain numbers as letters (such as 5 being used in place of an S or 0 for an O or 7 for T)?

And there are a lot of such replacements. ch =4 And there is also when several written letters in English will be the voice form of a word in another language .

AngryPenguin · September 20

Verling wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8190954/#Comment_8190954

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The take home message is simple.
We already have a profanity filter. So anyone who can't deal with profanity can filter it out of their chat and never see it.

Filters are not in any way. they often make mistakes. There are variants of sound distortions and transformations of letter-written distortions and transformations of sound distortions. In addition, there is a perverse transformation of a set of letters. There are logical expressions of insults in many languages. There are bundles of words of insults in a certain area. Many phrases of insults have a logical load from knowing some of the meanings of words. It will be a joke for one player. For another, it would be a harsh insult. All filters cannot recognize this.

So there is step 2, the report player option.

AngryPenguin · September 20

Arunei wrote: »

Just gonna cp my question list from the other thread.

1) Why were we not informed of this change? This is a MASSIVE issue, as chat is one of the biggest damn features in an MMO. How would anyone think this wasn't a major addition to the game that needed to be announced?

2) What REAL assurances can we be given that these actions won't be made willy-nilly in the future like they are now? Will agents be held accountable if they take actions against accounts that did not warrant said actions? And no, don't tell us that what happened was the result of new tools and training (talking to the devs here, not Kevin, just a heads-up). Like I said, there shouldn't need to be any sort of advanced training on how to read context.

3) As others have asked, myself included, what terms/phrase/words/etc will get us in trouble? You can't implement a rule and then not explain fully how to avoid breaking it. Will this list take into account the fact that a word might be a slur or crude in one language but is a normal innocent word in another?

4) Will the fact that the filter in-game is ridiculously sensitive? It finds ""naughty"" words by ignoring spaces or considering certain numbers as letters (such as 5 being used in place of an S or 0 for an O or 7 for T)?

As to point #3 I can think of a 4 letter word that starts with the letter c that is totally acceptable in Britain and Australia, and Chaucer frequently used the word too, but if you use it in America the ladies will lose their minds. So ya, this is a good point. AI has zero ability to determine context and would ban Chaucer in a heartbeat.

AngryPenguin · September 20

This whole issue makes me feel like we're all 14 years old and mom just put a hidden camera in our room. You know, just to make sure we're not up to anything she wouldn't approve of.

I just keep coming back to the fact that ESO is rated M. That means that adult language and themes are to be expected. It says so right on the front of every box the game has sold in since ever.

Nharimlur_Finor · September 20

AngryPenguin wrote: »

This whole issue makes me feel like we're all 14 years old and mom just put a hidden camera in our room. You know, just to make sure we're not up to anything she wouldn't approve of.

I just keep coming back to the fact that ESO is rated M. That means that adult language and themes are to be expected. It says so right on the front of every box the game has sold in since ever.

Without wishing to disagree with you, I once did some research into my local classification system (OFLC).
I think it ends up being a more of a marketing tool, rather than any strategy of harm-prevention.

In Australia, the MA15+ rating used to mean that an adult over the age of 18 should accompany anyone between 15-18 when they are viewing the material with this classification. For guidance and support. This may have changed now.

Then there's the issue of a 'base game' getting an M rating; and an expansion having a higher rating.
Does any purchaser really understand what they are doing in this scenario?

Here's Kevin's response from the closed thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8190298/#Comment_8190298

As a company we also abide by the Digital Service Act law and all similar laws.

I'd really appreciate a link to any applicable legislation when it is used a justification.

Nharimlur_Finor · September 20

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Rushing around today, so I can't give my usual thoughtful replies, but- I'd genuinely like to know whether getting a false positive leaves a permanent "black mark" on an account, or whether the accounts history is absolved once a decision is challenged and found to be a false positive.

Also, if human review is taking place, then why does it feel as though context still isn't being considered? Are we facing a language barrier with overseas outsourcing?

Food for thought.

The tools used are intended to be preventative, and alert us to serious crimes, hate speech, and extreme cases of harm.

The explanation for this includesa the idea that this is a 'preventative' tool.

The 'preventative' aspect would be more effective if we all knew, understood and subsequently avoided the risks that are potentially being mitigated by this strategy.

I'm now concerned by what sort of 'serious crime' is happening in ESO to warrant this level of intervention.

Syldras · September 20

LaintalAy wrote: »

Without wishing to disagree with you, I once did some research into my local classification system (OFLC).
I think it ends up being a more of a marketing tool, rather than any strategy of harm-prevention.
In Australia, the MA15+ rating used to mean that an adult over the age of 18 should accompany anyone between 15-18 when they are viewing the material with this classification. For guidance and support. This may have changed now.
Then there's the issue of a 'base game' getting an M rating; and an expansion having a higher rating.
Does any purchaser really understand what they are doing in this scenario?

It varies very much from country to country. In Germany, there are basically two review boards who do ratings: the USK and the BzKJ (as they are called now - haven't checked for a long time).

The USK does general age ratings. The categories they use to sort media are "0+, 6+, 12+, 16+, 18+". These ratings have a legal consequence. Stores have to check the passport of the buyer/renter for their age before selling or renting out a medium.

The BzKJ on the other hand belongs to the government and only decides whether a medium is suitable for minors or not. If it's considered unsuitable (18+ only), there are even stricter legal rules than with the USK ratings:

- It must not be sold, provided or otherwise made accessible to minors.
- It must not be displayed where it can be seen by minors. This would, for example, include playing an indexed game in the presence of minors (e.g. streaming gameplay over the Internet).
- It must be sold within a shop in an area accessible only to adults ("under the counter"). In general, selling indexed titles per mail order is illegal, however, it is permissible if the package may be handed over only to a specified adult, who has to present their identification.
- It must not be rented out, except in a shop inaccessible to minors.
- It must not be imported by mail order. In this case, an adult buyer (importer) is not subject to penalties, if they themselves have no intentions of further disseminating it to others or minors.
- It must not be advertised or announced in a place where the announcement or advertisement could be seen by minors.

Then again, fantasy games are almost never rated 18+ here. It's usually 12+, or 16+ if it gets visually gruesome.

ESO and all chapters/dlcs are rated 16+ here.

Edit: Skyrim was 16+ too, even if you could decapitate npcs there. Weirdly, they seem to mostly distinguish between modern and historical/fantasy weapons. They don't care for swords at all, but as soon as guns are involved, it's 18+ and indexed (normal sale forbidden).

twev · September 21

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Idelise wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

according to the post that closed that thread, it was at the request of the OP, not because of zos "stifling" the conversation

All the other threads were closed 'because main post' was running though... so you close the side things because of the main thing, which you then close as well?

the OP has the right to want the post closed lol

they were closing other threads because that one was the "main" thread and they were trying to consolidate, if the OP wanted it closed they are obliged to do so

theres nothing stopping you from say opening a new thread and listing the existing info (link to kevins posts) and bulletpoints which you still have questions about to continue the discussion

Original poster of a thread owns the thread and all rights to opinions thereof?
Thats a new one.
I imagine secondary posters with opinions cease to matter, as a consequence.
Thats one of the reasons other forums come to exist.

zaria · September 21

Verling wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8190954/#Comment_8190954

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The take home message is simple.
We already have a profanity filter. So anyone who can't deal with profanity can filter it out of their chat and never see it.

Filters are not in any way. they often make mistakes. There are variants of sound distortions and transformations of letter-written distortions and transformations of sound distortions. In addition, there is a perverse transformation of a set of letters. There are logical expressions of insults in many languages. There are bundles of words of insults in a certain area. Many phrases of insults have a logical load from knowing some of the meanings of words. It will be a joke for one player. For another, it would be a harsh insult. All filters cannot recognize this.

This and while English is standard for zone and pug groups guild, group and direct chat often use others for say an Danish or German guild.
Now I recommend using discord and voice as its so much more relaxing.

JemadarofCaerSalis · September 21

Verling wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8190954/#Comment_8190954

AngryPenguin wrote: »

The take home message is simple.
We already have a profanity filter. So anyone who can't deal with profanity can filter it out of their chat and never see it.

Filters are not in any way. they often make mistakes. There are variants of sound distortions and transformations of letter-written distortions and transformations of sound distortions. In addition, there is a perverse transformation of a set of letters. There are logical expressions of insults in many languages. There are bundles of words of insults in a certain area. Many phrases of insults have a logical load from knowing some of the meanings of words. It will be a joke for one player. For another, it would be a harsh insult. All filters cannot recognize this.

Also, as someone who has the filter on (just haven't bothered to turn it off), I can't tell you how many times innocent words will be turned into ***** because the filter has decided that it contained profanity.

I also remember something that happened on a different site with a filter, where it was catching, and preventing people from posting, site items. You couldn't reference certain site items by name because the filter for their board were way too strict.

I also remember a story about a man who had a username that started with N and ended with A. The middle part got caught by a game's filter.

Filters can be useful, but they can also make things much worse, or so bad that people can't use them, because it makes chat unreadable due to everything being **** out.