Class Set Discussion/Pyrebrand

Wuuffyy

"Pyrebrand: Fixed an issue where this set could Critically Strike, despite having built in damage modifiers. Reduced the damage from the damage over time effect by ~18%. Increased the damage from the area effect by ~5%. Fixed an issue where the damage over time effect had a higher chance to apply Burning than intended. Reduced the flashing visual effects on the explosion from this set."

Really? Really? ZOS this is a class set with an egregious grind and you DESTROYED IT.

-No ability to crit by itself was, manageable (although rele hits significantly harder at maximum)
-A ~20% nerf to its damage output was also manageable (by itself)
-A nerf to its ability to proc thematic fire (via status effect)

///

A CHISEL Y'ALL, A CHISEL! These sets are some of the best ideas you've had in a while to restore identity to these classes and at the drop of a hat YOU ANNIHILATE them as a result of what-appears-to-be a few angry forum-goers in a single post with zero substantive proof of issues, reported as part of PVP of all things.

Please, my ask is undo SOMETHING. I haven't seen this at all in PvP and this was the MOST FUN I have had in ages on my werewolf; a DK wolf at that.

The concept of the inability to crit... Please either make it where at least the heavy attack 'proc' can crit for 'burst'* and/OR undo the ungodly ~20% damage (1/5 of its value) nerf just for the sake of 'reducing efficiency' on a set.

*Why is this set taking 3 of my DoTs on a resource-restoring heavy just to hit like a noodle IN ALL CONTENT b/c the tooltip is simply not high enough (especially out of execute) AND it CAN'T BURST via a 'lucky crit'

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This is all I see, every time something is 'balanced' it's DESTROYED. If these values were such an OVERSIGHT, why would you put out a set WITH THOSE NUMBERS TO BEGIN WITH (that also went through multiple weeks of PTS w/ multiple, related YT videos explaining its pros and cons)?

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*I was finally able to test this on PTS, and let me say... It was even worse than I imagined:

-I put on a charged bow w/ status effect CP and spammed LAs on WW (shortened 'cast' time on LAs); I COULD NOT proc burning on average more than once every 6-10 seconds (It should have a base, 5 % chance w/ a charged bow and CP taking that an additional 300% to 20% total... which certainly wasn't the case).

-It was doing 'double' the damage of my sheer venom at full health (a very WEAK dmg proc set w/ an execute multiplier that makes it stronger). This is terrible as sheer venom has the potential to do the same damage at execute IN AN AOE (AoE execute) with the ABILITY TO CRIT. It actually does around the same damage if I don't LA on a 1 second cadence (i.e. let the dot tick on its own)

-Heavy attack damage actually hits like a noodle (again) outside of execute; yet still devours THREE of my DOTS, AT RANDOM.

I KNOW this thread will be ignored despite my wholehearted attempt to make it remotely engageable and will slip into obscurity over the cloak nerfs I'm already hearing about and whatever else I've overlooked on the PTS as of yet.

Theist_VII

Don’t worry, when the team looks back and wonders why half of their console revenue fell off on the 1st of October, months from now, they’ll have plenty of time to reflect on why.

I’m sure they’ll come to the conclusion that it was the way they cannibalized build diversity instead of encouraged it, with weird unexplainable nerfs and buffs to sets and skills that are both unwarranted and unhelpful… all while leaving a mass grave of useless sets and skills untended.

Renato90085

hope my necro/nb/sorc on pve can got a class set like dk class set
Who doesn’t like to wear an extra set of rele ?

Galeriano2

Well atleast it was and it still will be somewhat usefull unlike some other class sets.

JaxontheUnfortunate

Yeah it's a shame and would prefer it remained unchanged from its current form as I have also been using it in many areas including PvP and has been quite fun, finally a set offering some build diversity for DK's.

Ocelot9x

First time i did a real pve build as a pvper is because i grinded Pyrebrand for pvp... On live is a good 1v1 set bht nothing exceptional, there are better sets to run, after the nerf will be another gold set sitting in bank

JaxontheUnfortunate

Yeah it's a shame. Though even with all changes I am curious to see if it changes the bleed dmg I am getting as a werewolf as that was the main reason for me grinding the set out.

Aurielle

The nerf does seem like a bit of an overreaction (probably due to that majorly overreacting thread over in the combat sub-forum). It’s a decent little proc set that wasn’t being abused at all. According to my kill counter addon, I’ve been killed by Pyrebrand exactly once. One time. I’m not going to even touch how many Tarnished Nightmare deaths are listed, and that set was left untouched for…how long?

Real head-scratcher here. Pyrebrand is an example of how to make a class set that people actually WANT to use (unlike, say, the Templar set).

JaxontheUnfortunate

Exactly oh well I doubt we will get what we want.

sarahthes

Maybe they should remove proc sets from PvP again.

*Ducks and covers*

J18696

From a pvp perspective this set was totally abit to much and needed adjustment but after playing around with it on pts for a few days as of this first pts week it's 100% a dead set would never use it over alternatives

Twohothardware

Glad we can finally get back to noone bothering to run any of their new class sets or waste time running Infinite Archive. They've nerfed every decent set they put out until noone uses it. If it's not BETTER than other current sets there is no reason to chase something that requires a lot of grinding.

valenwood_vegan

If anyone from zos is reading, imo this is why people don't care about new sets, and aren't motivated to repeat / do grindy content for them.

If a set is good enough to be worth the effort, it's not worth it because we all know it'll be smashed with a sledgehammer [adjusted] soon. And adjusted in a rushed, over-reactionary way without using all of the available tools, such as battle spirit or "against monsters" only bonuses, and without making a small adjustment first, gathering data, and going farther if warranted.

The rest of the sets just... aren't good enough to warrant attention to begin with. The game is full of dead sets while people largely run around in a few nearly identical builds.

Wuuffyy

Bye thread! I'll miss you lol! (humor for ZOS, maybe?; unheard of!)

Blackbird_V

I've started playing my MagDK again because this set is fun, but I guess I'll now have to swap out that set. The nerf is a tad heavy-handed.

@ZOS_Gilliam, or @ZOS_Kevin : can feedback be sent to the combat team and we have an update on this? I think Pyrebrand is ok to critically strike with the damage being reduced now. PvPer's do have critical resistance and I think people complaining about this set are slightly overreacting.

If this set is nerfed because it's outperforming Relequen, then I think that's absolutely fine. Relequen is a very old set and it's been king for so long. Old sets should be allowed to die to pave way for newer sets.

You could also make it so the burn damage on light attacks only work against monsters?

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Wuuffyy

Wuuffyy wrote: »

"Pyrebrand: Fixed an issue where this set could Critically Strike, despite having built in damage modifiers. Reduced the damage from the damage over time effect by ~18%. Increased the damage from the area effect by ~5%. Fixed an issue where the damage over time effect had a higher chance to apply Burning than intended. Reduced the flashing visual effects on the explosion from this set...".

Also: "built in damage modifiers" that CAN crit and CAN deal ALOT of DAMAGE at HVs-






lol

There are more, trust me. If anything, all of these sets should do less damage at base and still crit. This concept of 'with' modifiers is not streamlined, a great reason for adjusting/not adjusting, or sensible with any general reasoning.

Wuuffyy

Twohothardware wrote: »

Glad we can finally get back to noone bothering to run any of their new class sets or waste time running Infinite Archive. They've nerfed every decent set they put out until noone uses it. If it's not BETTER than other current sets there is no reason to chase something that requires a lot of grinding.

This @ZOS_Kevin, @ZOS_GinaBruno is the mindset that THE MAJORITY of players are going to have for these sets w/ this Pyrebrand change as well as any other class sets you've created that always have arbitrary proc/usage stipulations.

Joy_Division

Why bother going through the trouble of having class sets if they aren't allowed to be better than generic stuff from 2018?

MincMincMinc

Joy_Division wrote: »

Why bother going through the trouble of having class sets if they aren't allowed to be better than generic stuff from 2018?

I'd rather see these "Class sets" modify or add to class identity skills. Think of how arena weapons function.

Instead so far they seem more like proc sets that only certain people can slot.

Tcholl

I am a DK main and my experience is that ZOS wants to keep the class at average and with no identity at all to please other players. They will do the same to other classes and they will all be in the same place eventually but this is another discussion (hello cloak nerf). Just saying that to you guys that main other classes and justify this nerf saying the other sets are useless. The post is not to compare Pyrebrand to other class sets but to explain this nerf is absurd in many ways.

Corrosive got nerfed and combustion got nerfed. Guess what, now the class have no burst damage and it is almost impossible to build around and keep the build competitive. DK became so boring that I only PvP on ballgroups now and using my warden.

Pyrebrand seemed to me as the Devs giving us a solution to our problems. As the title said, the farm is terrible and I hate the infinite archive, so I have waited to check it out. Anyway, In its current form, it brought life to the class again and a little bit of hype.

Now, the patch news comes and kill the set. Like, really? They cannot see we had a steep drop of DK usage recently? Also, I will not go back in the infinite archive any more as some that have stated the same before. Why should I?Maybe, this is good I guess.

I wish this change wouldn't go live but I doubt it. DK main back to the bench until they make the class fun again. No solo play for a while more and signing up on ballgroups almost every day of the week. I still have to ready why we ballgroup. Well, this kind of nerf is one of the reason I do anyway. Much easier to stay competitive in group and a lot less farming and theorycrafting just to have to do everything again next patch.

Vaqual

Tcholl wrote: »

Corrosive got nerfed and combustion got nerfed. Guess what, now the class have no burst damage and it is almost impossible to build around and keep the build competitive. DK became so boring that I only PvP on ballgroups now and using my warden.

This has to be a joke. DK was busted for at least 2 years straight and they did the bare minimum to bring it back in line. Of course the playfield around it has changed too, but neither of the nerfs you mention took away significant burst from DK. Yes combustion is marginally weaker, but that didn't kill burst. Corrosive gives the same amount of penetration if you wish to burst with it, you just don't get the free ulti-regen while being near invulnerable. This ultimate was broken beyond comprehension as an offensive and defensive tool and even insinuating that this was acceptable is discrediting your statements.

Aurielle

J18696 wrote: »

From a pvp perspective this set was totally abit to much and needed adjustment but after playing around with it on pts for a few days as of this first pts week it's 100% a dead set would never use it over alternatives

It’s a good thing I golded it out on live last week, then!

Sigh. I didn’t like Pyrebrand on the ranged build I tried, but it felt decent for melee. Just decent, not “whoa, this set deletes people for me, and I don’t even have to try” (for that: see Tarnished Nightmare). Guess I’ll go back to wearing Plaguebreak. It’s too bad I deconned those pieces for the transmutes for my Pyrebrand build. 🙄

Tcholl

Ok, I will explain: corrosive do not generate ulti anymore and Dk

Vaqual wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Corrosive got nerfed and combustion got nerfed. Guess what, now the class have no burst damage and it is almost impossible to build around and keep the build competitive. DK became so boring that I only PvP on ballgroups now and using my warden.

This has to be a joke. DK was busted for at least 2 years straight and they did the bare minimum to bring it back in line. Of course the playfield around it has changed too, but neither of the nerfs you mention took away significant burst from DK. Yes combustion is marginally weaker, but that didn't kill burst. Corrosive gives the same amount of penetration if you wish to burst with it, you just don't get the free ulti-regen while being near invulnerable. This ultimate was broken beyond comprehension as an offensive and defensive tool and even insinuating that this was an acceptable is discrediting your statements.

First off, @Vaqual are you a DK main? If not, which class do you main?

It seems you are stuck in the past and just got out the time capsule here.

I do main the class and will explain how the corrosive nerf took the burst off for PvP. DKs built to generate ultimate and sustain from the Battle Roar passive. Since you cannot generate ultimate during corrosive now, we must spent points in sustain to survive. Points we have to take out from damage. Also, we must build ultimate for a long time before having corrosive again, which makes you sit there as target for counters (remember the range meta? DKs have no mobility). Most of players are not even using corrosive anymore, except some mech acuity builds who are still out there.

Third, the Combustion passive nerf also gave a further hit at sustain and I don't need to explain again why this means less damage.

All of this with the great decision of making all DOTs standard. Now, players stuck in the past complain from Pyrebrand and more nerf on the way. If you are not a DK main, you will see that this behaviour will come around to your class too, which will be also affected by nerfs sooner rather than later.

DKs are relegated to support on groups and are boring to play solo now. I am playing mostly warden in ballgroups as I have said before and for a reason.

Vaqual

Tcholl wrote: »

Ok, I will explain: corrosive do not generate ulti anymore and Dk

Vaqual wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Corrosive got nerfed and combustion got nerfed. Guess what, now the class have no burst damage and it is almost impossible to build around and keep the build competitive. DK became so boring that I only PvP on ballgroups now and using my warden.

This has to be a joke. DK was busted for at least 2 years straight and they did the bare minimum to bring it back in line. Of course the playfield around it has changed too, but neither of the nerfs you mention took away significant burst from DK. Yes combustion is marginally weaker, but that didn't kill burst. Corrosive gives the same amount of penetration if you wish to burst with it, you just don't get the free ulti-regen while being near invulnerable. This ultimate was broken beyond comprehension as an offensive and defensive tool and even insinuating that this was an acceptable is discrediting your statements.

First off, @Vaqual are you a DK main? If not, which class do you main?

It seems you are stuck in the past and just got out the time capsule here.

I do main the class and will explain how the corrosive nerf took the burst off for PvP. DKs built to generate ultimate and sustain from the Battle Roar passive. Since you cannot generate ultimate during corrosive now, we must spent points in sustain to survive. Points we have to take out from damage. Also, we must build ultimate for a long time before having corrosive again, which makes you sit there as target for counters (remember the range meta? DKs have no mobility). Most of players are not even using corrosive anymore, except some mech acuity builds who are still out there.

Third, the Combustion passive nerf also gave a further hit at sustain and I don't need to explain again why this means less damage.

All of this with the great decision of making all DOTs standard. Now, players stuck in the past complain from Pyrebrand and more nerf on the way. If you are not a DK main, you will see that this behaviour will come around to your class too, which will be also affected by nerfs sooner rather than later.

DKs are relegated to support on groups and are boring to play solo now. I am playing mostly warden in ballgroups as I have said before and for a reason.

Thanks, but the explanation was not needed. I am aware of the implications and to what extent power was stripped. But DK burst potential is not lower, it just doesn't come for free anymore with all the other goodies. Corrosive is now an actual decision and not a no-brainer.
That is the whole point of a nerf. Something that does too much is being reigned in. DK not being the biggest problem on the menu right now, doesn't mean it needs to be juiced up again. That also doesn't take away from other problems. I think DK is in a healthy spot, both compared to when it was too weak and when it was too strong. If you let a ball group dictate how to play, then you will always only have the most broken meta choice available.

YandereGirlfriend

Tcholl wrote: »

Ok, I will explain: corrosive do not generate ulti anymore and Dk

Vaqual wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Corrosive got nerfed and combustion got nerfed. Guess what, now the class have no burst damage and it is almost impossible to build around and keep the build competitive. DK became so boring that I only PvP on ballgroups now and using my warden.

This has to be a joke. DK was busted for at least 2 years straight and they did the bare minimum to bring it back in line. Of course the playfield around it has changed too, but neither of the nerfs you mention took away significant burst from DK. Yes combustion is marginally weaker, but that didn't kill burst. Corrosive gives the same amount of penetration if you wish to burst with it, you just don't get the free ulti-regen while being near invulnerable. This ultimate was broken beyond comprehension as an offensive and defensive tool and even insinuating that this was an acceptable is discrediting your statements.

First off, @Vaqual are you a DK main? If not, which class do you main?

It seems you are stuck in the past and just got out the time capsule here.

I do main the class and will explain how the corrosive nerf took the burst off for PvP. DKs built to generate ultimate and sustain from the Battle Roar passive. Since you cannot generate ultimate during corrosive now, we must spent points in sustain to survive. Points we have to take out from damage. Also, we must build ultimate for a long time before having corrosive again, which makes you sit there as target for counters (remember the range meta? DKs have no mobility). Most of players are not even using corrosive anymore, except some mech acuity builds who are still out there.

Third, the Combustion passive nerf also gave a further hit at sustain and I don't need to explain again why this means less damage.

All of this with the great decision of making all DOTs standard. Now, players stuck in the past complain from Pyrebrand and more nerf on the way. If you are not a DK main, you will see that this behaviour will come around to your class too, which will be also affected by nerfs sooner rather than later.

DKs are relegated to support on groups and are boring to play solo now. I am playing mostly warden in ballgroups as I have said before and for a reason.

I agree with you that the Combustion (and Pyrebrand) nerf was unwarranted but Corrosive WAS absolutely busted.

Tcholl

@Vaqual you did not answer which class you main, so I am assuming you are not a DK main. If you did not need the explanation, your first message calling a joke and saying that no burst was lost was not fully honest, was it?

The corrosive nerf is past now and there is no point in creating a discussion over it. The fact is that DKs have received enough nerfs already and now because some players cannot get over the past they keep hammering the class. Pyrebrand is next.

Also the ballgroup does not dictate my game play. It is just a lot more fun to run with the group on a warden than playing solo on a DK right now. Wardens have much more burst with shalks and spin 2 win.

Tcholl

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Ok, I will explain: corrosive do not generate ulti anymore and Dk

Vaqual wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Corrosive got nerfed and combustion got nerfed. Guess what, now the class have no burst damage and it is almost impossible to build around and keep the build competitive. DK became so boring that I only PvP on ballgroups now and using my warden.

This has to be a joke. DK was busted for at least 2 years straight and they did the bare minimum to bring it back in line. Of course the playfield around it has changed too, but neither of the nerfs you mention took away significant burst from DK. Yes combustion is marginally weaker, but that didn't kill burst. Corrosive gives the same amount of penetration if you wish to burst with it, you just don't get the free ulti-regen while being near invulnerable. This ultimate was broken beyond comprehension as an offensive and defensive tool and even insinuating that this was an acceptable is discrediting your statements.

First off, @Vaqual are you a DK main? If not, which class do you main?

It seems you are stuck in the past and just got out the time capsule here.

I do main the class and will explain how the corrosive nerf took the burst off for PvP. DKs built to generate ultimate and sustain from the Battle Roar passive. Since you cannot generate ultimate during corrosive now, we must spent points in sustain to survive. Points we have to take out from damage. Also, we must build ultimate for a long time before having corrosive again, which makes you sit there as target for counters (remember the range meta? DKs have no mobility). Most of players are not even using corrosive anymore, except some mech acuity builds who are still out there.

Third, the Combustion passive nerf also gave a further hit at sustain and I don't need to explain again why this means less damage.

All of this with the great decision of making all DOTs standard. Now, players stuck in the past complain from Pyrebrand and more nerf on the way. If you are not a DK main, you will see that this behaviour will come around to your class too, which will be also affected by nerfs sooner rather than later.

DKs are relegated to support on groups and are boring to play solo now. I am playing mostly warden in ballgroups as I have said before and for a reason.

I agree with you that the Combustion (and Pyrebrand) nerf was unwarranted but Corrosive WAS absolutely busted.

Removing ulti gen from corrosive killed the skill, not generating ultimate goes against everything DKs using corrosive built for. The same thing is happening with cloak now, where most believe it was OP, but the way they are doing does not seem a good way to handle it. Most NBs are pretty upset about it. Pyrebrand is the same and this is why this post exists. We are killing yet another viable set.

Keeping this complaing and nerfing cycles is not good for any class or anyone really.

Vaqual

Tcholl wrote: »

@Vaqual you did not answer which class you main, so I am assuming you are not a DK main. If you did not need the explanation, your first message calling a joke and saying that no burst was lost was not fully honest, was it?

The corrosive nerf is past now and there is no point in creating a discussion over it. The fact is that DKs have received enough nerfs already and now because some players cannot get over the past they keep hammering the class. Pyrebrand is next.

Also the ballgroup does not dictate my game play. It is just a lot more fun to run with the group on a warden than playing solo on a DK right now. Wardens have much more burst with shalks and spin 2 win.

I feel like we are not communicating right, there is a lack of comprehension in your replies. I don't want to derail this needlessly.

Tcholl

@Vaqual All I did was to reply to your quotes. You quote someone and call it a joke and now you say we are not communicating right. Very rich.

If you stop quoting someone to attack the author or the post, will receive more comprehension from others. Come up with your own ideas.

I will not go back and forth any further with you, no matter how many times you quote.

My first message was to support the post and point out that DKs have had their share of nerfs recently.

NuarBlack

I'll be honest in a game that has been out a decade claiming to be a main of anything is a red flag to me. So called NB mains followed by DK have been the most cringe lately. No class has that much depth to main, especially if you are a slave to the meta aka corrosive or cloak. All it really reveals is your game knowledge is extremely narrow. So seeing overwhelmingly meta skills or sets get nerfed is usually a good thing.

That being said Pyre wasn't even around long enough to be meta and the reason being it was better than relequen, a set that had been meta forever, in some situations is baffling. Hopefully they roll back part of the nerfs or buff the execute and heavy attack damage proc more to compensate as I think that is the more interesting part of the set anyway.

Tcholl

Well I play Tank PvE and PvP with DK and only have a second alt which is a warden to use in PvP ballgroups. I believe I can safely say that I have a MAIN class.

Regarding game knowledge, everyone is an expert in the forum. Very easy to lecture and pretend to teach stuff here.

The classes have no depth due to players complaining about the other grass being greener. The more ppl complaining, more nerfs and less class identity.