80% of players 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map but yes NB is the problem

MincMincMinc

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

You just highlighted the need for being tanky because you are getting hit by multiple people, regardless if they're NBs though. That's still a ZOS issue because they can't balance their game and as well as allowing people to build so tanky. It goes both ways, if you're opponent isn't tanky, you might kill off one or two and escape easier. I'm not saying building tanky is wrong, i'm saying this is a ZOS issue and their ignorance of PvP.

Tankiness for everyone's builds stems from believe it or not the removal of 1vX mechanics..... *gasp*. The inception of the game was to have openworld varying numbers combat. With that in mind zos of old knew solo players would be run over by groups. You can't push a game in a direction where the only thing that matters is winning by numbers. To counter this and level the playing field there were inclass tools that scaled when out numbered, but were balanced or mediocre in 1v1s.

Blazing shield being one of them. Crit surge without a cooldown on sorc. NB had siphon attacks and sap to heal and sustain in a mob. etc. All of which required stat investment to function and then was active skill based instead of off of automatic set procs. Most inclass 1vX skills have been removed or butchered, and replaced by the quarterly OP proc tank set. Instead of slotting an active skill, now anyone can just farm and slot the new passive set that does the work for you.

Also, speed thread anyone?

Joy_Division

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

ioResult

Theist_VII wrote: »

Are you in disbelief of the fact that every class has an optimal build pattern?

Go make an inferior build like the one you’re referencing on any other class and tell us about your experience.

While it can be annoying that the game feels like it’s balanced around the 1%, if they did anything other than that you would have people making unkillable builds that two-tap others.

Are you that myopic that you can't see that what you call "the optimal build pattern" only serves ONE single play style? A play style that has nothing to do with the lore of the class and is a 'build pattern' that can be applied to ANY class for that sample play style? You can take the sets, CP and majority of abilities and transfer them to a toon of a different class and then substitute two or three class skills and magically you have the same "optimal build pattern" for THAT class too?

That's because what you're showing is a meta build for ANY BRAWLER who wants to stand in peoples' faces and brawl. But if you don't want to brawl (i.e. play the simplest, easiest style of play in any PvP game) then you can build toons that are optimal for other styles of play.

What is happening here is that for the OTHER styles of play that the vast, vast, vast majority of people playing a Nightblade, their play style is being eliminated completely or severely encumbered for no good reason.

If you can't see that, we can't help you. Go brawl and think that's the only way to play the game.

Tommy_The_Gun

Well, you know what is absolutely hilarious ? Every one & their dog is taking about NB this, NB that, nerf is too strong, nerf is too weak, some people cheer, some people cry etc....

Meanwhile, for over 10 years, Ball Groups have not received as single, direct nerf.... *slow clap*

I mean, seriously... why ? Why not ? Every over-performing play style got gutted a couple of times and even a couple of times more over those 10 years, but Ball Groups.... ? Noooo. They only got some indirect buffs or sometimes even direct buffs...

StaticWave

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

Yea, for offense I mostly use Cloak to guarantee a crit Bow Proc or setup a burst combo. For defense, I use Cloak to “dodge” direct single target abilities without needing to actually dodge roll, or cancel some DoTs/abilities like Zaan/Radiant Destruction/Heavy Lightning Attacks

I rarely stay in Cloak for too long because my build doesn’t need Cloak to survive. Cloak is just a bonus, just like any escape skill in a well-rounded build.

Thumbless_Bot

"80% of players 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map but yes NB is the problem"

NB and sorc, in terms of over performing classes... generally, and then dk with pale order is pretty busted too, ngl...

Other than that, ranged damage, tarnished damage, overload spam, healthy offering and spec bow hopefully get addressed in weeks 2-5, but I will take what I can get.

System_Data

StaticWave wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

Yea, for offense I mostly use Cloak to guarantee a crit Bow Proc or setup a burst combo. For defense, I use Cloak to “dodge” direct single target abilities without needing to actually dodge roll, or cancel some DoTs/abilities like Zaan/Radiant Destruction/Heavy Lightning Attacks

I rarely stay in Cloak for too long because my build doesn’t need Cloak to survive. Cloak is just a bonus, just like any escape skill in a well-rounded build.

And yet your style of playing on NB is just one the many available. You think it's alright that this change goes by because it doesn't affect your NB playstyle, which is probably a brawlerblade/tankblade. It's hard to be objective when you clearly say you dislike the ganker playstyle.

People fail to argue properly when mentioned, but cloak is not a displacement tool like streak. They're both defensive options but it doesn't mean that they should be balanced the same way, ie. ramping costs. There's a plethora of countermeasures against cloak than there are for any other defensive tools. Some will argue that they may not work, but how is that any of NBs fault and not ZOS. Stop holding people accountable for playing their way and blame ZOS for bad server performance and bad coding. In a perfect world, all those counters against cloak should be working but they don't and that's on ZOS.

My mains are Templars and Necromancers which those two classes are dogwater in PvP. This is just another bad change with no foresight on repercussions that will ensue. Although this change may not affect how i play my NB, a bad change is still a bad change. You'll see less NBs for sure if this update stay as it is. It's because people will be leaving PvP/ESO. People will enjoy slapping the same people in the same tank builds soon.

Urzigurumash

DK and Templar can't facetank like they used to. Not even close to it. Nowadays you've got to stay moving or you melt.

That probably sounds insane to pure NB and MSorc mains, aka DD Mains, but it's true.

But according to some DD Mains it's a Tank Meta, everybody is a Tank, Heavy Armor needs a nerf, Turtling needs a nerf.

Because after all, Tanks aren't supposed to deal damage. It is a Defensive Role. Dealing damage with any Tank-like Characteristic is an illegitimate playstyle. It doesn't really matter what these Tanks say or want, they're not good players: all the good players are on MSorc and NB.

It took me a while to internalize this, and that's when I became a BowCro main.

StaticWave

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

Foxtrot39

Fixing cyro is as easy as bringing back the duality of PVP

-If you tank well you shouldn't have damage

-If you have high damage/healing you shouldn't tank well

Crosshealing also need to be adressed in PVP to kill ballgroups

Spin

I get your concern over their priorities, this will likely not pass or will in some sort of smaller way. But let's talk about the following:

Being able to cast cloak, refreshing path, concealed attack and even purge for some builds, while not even being a pure Magblade is a problem.

Nightblades have, perhaps, the biggest offensive buff kit in the game. Over-stacking damage sets to delete someone is easy to do nowdays, you have Balorgh, Vamp and various different forms of penetration, those being crafted sets, since the gold crash (thank god, please let it happen again) having 2-crafted sets or crafting the missing pieces of a build is not a problem anymore.

So you can fully commit to damage, be able to cast enough Magicka skills and sustain it all, while also being able to run away into Stealth.

This change hurts the Proc-Blades who didn't manage to get their Tarnished/Ashen/FB/Venomous/Sheer/Cinders/WoF/Velidreth/Anthelmir/Selene/Deadlands on someone, and then go back to stealth to wait for it to happen again, and again and again.

Just play Brawlblade, done. Go full Spellblade, hell most Gankblades that manage to kill Tanky players are already Spellblades so...

Ofc the 40k HP is a problem, but let's not ignore this.

Perhaps I spent too much time playing with Eternal Hunt in my backbar back in the old ways, or that I'm Brawlblading too much. Whatever, Cyro is full of Gankers and Tankers, it's one group going away, then there's the next.

blktauna

KKolly wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Not to mention this essentially kills Stamblade and now everyone will just be a Magblade, jumping around while light attacking everywhere until they are ready to cloak with 30k mag.

My sramblade uses heavy armour and dark cloak.
The full time on minr protection and the heal is good with 35k health.

I support your playstyle but this is a much bigger part of what slows down Cyrodiil than scary shadowy disguise.

***.

A single EP NB sitting between Red Bleakers and Blue Glademist will devastate a siege by picking off people trying to make their way to the siege. They'll sit in perma-stealth on stam build with zero repercussions. Nevermind when entire groups do it.

A single EP tank will just be riden past by the zerg as they go siege down Bleaks. Tanks can't hurt you if you don't engage. But with the NB I can't choose to avoid engagement...meanwhile it gets to disengage into perma stealth at will.

you must be pretty squishy if one attacker can wreck you that easily.

Ocelot9x

I love the argument that cyro is full of tanks and if you have 35k+ health you shouldnt be able to do damage but at the same time if you get oneshot by a nb its your fault because you're not building enough tankiness.

DeadlySerious

evLRise wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I love the argument that cyro is full of tanks and if you have 35k+ health you shouldnt be able to do damage but at the same time if you get oneshot by a nb its your fault because you're not building enough tankiness.

[snip]

More like exposing the players that have been crutching on broken OP NB skills for too long.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

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Thank you for your understanding.

Mayrael

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

Theist_VII

Mayrael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

TechMaybeHic

Theist_VII wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

Better watch out. That templar landed one jab. That POTL about to go off for 1k

Theist_VII

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

The PoV player here the vast majority of the time is hidden for less than 1 second intervals, using cloak mostly to reposition, not get hit, or set up an offensive combo. This is exactly the sort of Nightblade gameplay that makes the class a consistent top tier performer. Cloak is just one of many tools in the game on a class that can equip something things like a sword and shield or gear sets like Rallying Cry to not be the squishy stereotype associated with the "assassin" archetype.

This clip will absolutely be possible nest patch.

In that clip, you kept killing the same inexperienced players over and over, while barely scratching the rest with actual PvP builds. Just saying. It's not the class; it's just good circumstances.

Better watch out. That templar landed one jab. That POTL about to go off for 1k

I feel like you missed the point of the clip. I was showing off how horrible Nightblade is.

Look at all that effort it took to kill that player with two buttons after draining all of their stam away due to Templar’s amazing sustain.