80% of players 40k health, 20k+ shields, squatting entire map but yes NB is the problem

Tommy_The_Gun · September 18

Joy_Division wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Most of the people run 35k + health just because you are forced to if you are not a nightblade or sorc. People have been stacking health patch after patch since ZOS introduced undodgeable skills and free damage procsets so newbs dont get bored respawning.

PsEu is like 30% nbs too, a change is more than welcome.

So alter the undodgable skills (whatever you think those are) and kill the most used proc sets. And then significantly cut back on health and sheidl stacking. Everyone wins. Except what isn't what everyone wants. Everyone wants the health and shield stacking because they want to play that way. What they don't want is any sort of counter play to that.

Right. Change the whole game just so NBs can still spam cloak indefinitely. These posts act as if the devs removed the functionality of Cloak. They didn;t. It still does that same thing. It's just more expensive to use constantly. The horror. You want to know what it's like to be on the bad side of a ZOS nerf hammer? Roll a Necro.

I don't think NBs are mad specifically about cost increase.

I think that most people simply scratch their heads & wondering why after 10 years one of the class core skills is being changed to operate in a way it was never designed to operate. I mean mostly how the skill is coded and how it interacts with other elements of the game. Famous (or in-famous) so called "cloak spam". You know why NBs do it ? Cuz in heavy lag due to server side things, sometimes even a bow LA may remove cloak, while game-rule wise it should not. After it is toggle, cloak will basically be a "coin toss" if it works or not. Not only that, but every single game element that interacts with stealth is "tuned" for cloak being cast-able skill and not a toggle. So detection potions on PTS for example do bug out & cancel cloak.... but not cancel at the same time, so the skill is still active... but not active... and the magicka goes into limbo.

It is just the tip of the iceberg of issue that for sure will appear. Last time ZOS touched some "under the hood" stuff with stealth & invisibility, it turned out to be a huge mess and stuff was bugging out.... and it took them only like 2 years to clean up that mess.

It is just weird that they try to come up with so over complicated solution to a problem. I mean, if "perma cloak" in PvP is a problem, then do it through Battle Spirit. Add like 70 - 80% magicka recovery reduction while under the effect of invisibility. See ? Simple. It only affects most problematic extremes.

I think that most NBs are mad about that. Sure, Increased cost hurts a bit, but people will adapt to that. What people will be unable to adapt is bugged & unreliable, weirdly, randomly working or randomly not working skill. Cuz this is what is going to happen.

KKolly · September 18

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Not to mention this essentially kills Stamblade and now everyone will just be a Magblade, jumping around while light attacking everywhere until they are ready to cloak with 30k mag.

My sramblade uses heavy armour and dark cloak.
The full time on minr protection and the heal is good with 35k health.

I support your playstyle but this is a much bigger part of what slows down Cyrodiil than scary shadowy disguise.

***.

A single EP NB sitting between Red Bleakers and Blue Glademist will devastate a siege by picking off people trying to make their way to the siege. They'll sit in perma-stealth on stam build with zero repercussions. Nevermind when entire groups do it.

A single EP tank will just be riden past by the zerg as they go siege down Bleaks. Tanks can't hurt you if you don't engage. But with the NB I can't choose to avoid engagement...meanwhile it gets to disengage into perma stealth at will.

Frostmear · September 18

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Hip hurray for the "never ending combat" mob who have gotten their way for 3 years. ZOS has continually buffed and buffed and buffed survivability with no downside, because all you have to do is put on one damage set on your weapons/jewelry and run with 10 buddies with the same build, and you are nigh unkillable.

But here we go. Here are the problems with the cloak changes.

1. Detection. So now I turn on Shadowy Disguise and I have no idea that the group cycling detect pots have detected me, but I still keep burning magicka trying to stay on the outskirts of their base stealth detection radius.
2. Guards. How do you think stealthblades get into keeps? Shadowy Disguise. Now I am going to burn 3500 magicka every 2 seconds (!!!) trying to maneuver into a keep before I can even find a place where I am comfortable sitting invisible without it running. Guards have insane stealth detection and the only way to get around this is to use shadowy.
3. You just want people to use invisible pots? So now they can't use detect pots to kill other nightblades? Bravo.
4. You allow people to run the map with insanely high health, insanely strong armor, AND SHIELDS. Yet you want to completely remove the most targeted damage dealing playstyle from the game with this ridiculously unwise change, and why? What is being "solved" by this? TTK is the highest it has ever been. People come on here and complain about nightblades because they got killed during their 10 minute lap around a rock when the first 10 people attacking them couldn't do enough damage.

This is an embarrassing change to the game. I can't say what I will do if this goes through as it would be against the rules, but my stream will certainly have to go through a shakeup. It's already a chore to deal with the meta ZOS HAS ENABLED and PAMPERED for 3 years now. PVP used to be about fighting. Now it's about shields and perma blocking until your 10 tank buddies arrive and you can focus your damage 10v1 because that's the only way you can kill anyone, even a measly little nightblade with 9k armor.

40% of the cyrodiil population is nightblade, try again

StaticWave · September 19

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

Major_Mangle · September 19

Theist_VII wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

To be fair, that combo should be avoided 99/100 times. Yes sometimes the game is a bit unresponsive but that combo is a L2p issue to avoid tbh.

The problem with NB aint it's dmg it's the defensive nature of it.

Theist_VII · September 19

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

To be fair, that combo should be avoided 99/100 times. Yes sometimes the game is a bit unresponsive but that combo is a L2p issue to avoid tbh.

The problem with NB aint it's dmg it's the defensive nature of it.

How is that a L2P issue on my opponent? Playing my Nightblade it was extremely easy to drain my opponent of all of their resources by my offensive pressure, especially with them on a Stamplar, to ensure they couldn’t cc break, and then I caught them in a channeled attack.

Literally nothing they could have done to avoid that combo, and it required the bare minimum for me to set it up.

When someone tries to make the argument that a class that gives free Major Resolve, Major Evasion, free roll dodge resets, one of the best burst heals in the game, all of the movement speed, and the ability to quite obviously pressure and then two-tap other players is anything but god-tier easy-mode fighting max handicap Smash Bros, idk what to tell you.

ioResult · September 19

KKolly wrote: »

A single EP NB sitting between Red Bleakers and Blue Glademist will devastate a siege by picking off people trying to make their way to the siege. They'll sit in perma-stealth on stam build with zero repercussions. Nevermind when entire groups do it.

A single EP tank will just be riden past by the zerg as they go siege down Bleaks. Tanks can't hurt you if you don't engage. But with the NB I can't choose to avoid engagement...meanwhile it gets to disengage into perma stealth at will.

Yet again, this has nothing to do with Cloak. You obviously have no clue how it works. The Nightblades in question are literally just sitting in CROUCH. They are NOT casting Cloak or any other ability to do this. They invest CP in decreased detection radius and other stealth related CP so you can't see them literally just crouching until you get close to them.

The change in Cloak is literally unaffected by this. And all of the grout lickers who think 1vX'ing is the only way to PvP think that they care about their new ability to "make them pay" by killing the Nightblade more easily will affect the EP Nightblades?

Nightblades already run 12K resistances and nearly no critical resistance. They're squishy AF. When they kill their target - even if they get killed themselves while doing so - they consider that a WIN. Do you think they care about dying and their KDR the same way the sweaties gloating about this change do? No. They literally LAUGH at the sweaty tower trotters with their 25K+ resistances, 2100 crit resistance and tons of armor. Why? Because they know that if they put the sweaties in 12K resistances and 0 crit resistance in light and medium armor too that the Nightblade will win against the sweaty every time.

Nightblades see this exact thing when the sweaties try to actually play a nightblade and get utterly destroyed over & over when attacking the nightblade mains you're talking about above. The sweaties get killed 3, 4, 5, 6, 10 times in a row and then hop back on their sweaty Sorc, DK or Warden where the class and the build carries them, not any skill at ESO.

To do all of this they don't spam Cloak, they use it as a technique to manage their resources because they have no toolkit that can heal back 90% of their health with one button press like DKs have or an unblockable stun that lets them zip away at warp speed like Sorcs have or the ridiculous healing that Wardens and Arcanists have.

Changing the main ability that the vast majority of Nightblades use to manage resources by making it not regen Magicka literally just destroys the class. Everyone who mains a Nightblade in PvP who has tried this change to Cloak on PTS has said the same things, they will quit ESO altogether or they will stop paying for ESO or they will no longer PvP because ZOS is intentionally taking their enjoyment of the game away.

Have a good time PvDooring empty keeps in GH because this change will decrease the Cyrodiil population even more than it has already lowered recently by ZOS doing nothing about AD exploiting low pop and megazerging the map everyday to destroy both Ravenwatch and Blackreach as viable PvP realms.

Sweaties can't do their holy grail 1vX when there is no more X. And this change to this ability completely decimates a big section of the PvP community. Have fun fighting nobody but ball groups and immortal sweaties. That's all that's gonna be left in Cyrodiil. And ZOS will have no one but themselves to blame for even further drops in revenue.

ioResult · September 19

Theist_VII wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

To be fair, that combo should be avoided 99/100 times. Yes sometimes the game is a bit unresponsive but that combo is a L2p issue to avoid tbh.

The problem with NB aint it's dmg it's the defensive nature of it.

How is that a L2P issue on my opponent? Playing my Nightblade it was extremely easy to drain my opponent of all of their resources by my offensive pressure, especially with them on a Stamplar, to ensure they couldn’t cc break, and then I caught them in a channeled attack.

Literally nothing they could have done to avoid that combo, and it required the bare minimum for me to set it up.

When someone tries to make the argument that a class that gives free Major Resolve, Major Evasion, free roll dodge resets, one of the best burst heals in the game, all of the movement speed, and the ability to quite obviously pressure and then two-tap other players is anything but god-tier easy-mode fighting max handicap Smash Bros, idk what to tell you.

What does this clip have to do with Cloak?

This clip is obviously a super sweaty Rallying Crutch brawler NB build with 25K+ resistances. max crit resist and tons of armor. That's not how the vast majority of Nightblades play the class. As I've said before, the sets and CP choices that sweaty NB's like the one in that clip are using can be used by other classes to do what he's doing there. He's not actually being a Nightblade. He's using the ONE build of Nightblade that can brawl and guess what? Not everyone wants to brawl, as a Nightblade or as another class.

Go play a Nightblade with 12K resistances and 9K armor total and come into Cyrodiil and tell us how "overpowered" they are.

Actual Nightblades use Cloak for far more than escaping when they melee gank someone. They use it to manage resources. They use it to sneak into keeps as they change hands. They use it to evade zergs. You name it.

The kids that use terms like "S-Tier" think there's only one way to play this game and that's to brawl. You have no concept how Nightblade is actually played by the vast majority of those playing it or why they play it. And evidently neither do any of the current Devs on the "combat team".

Theist_VII · September 19

ioResult wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

To be fair, that combo should be avoided 99/100 times. Yes sometimes the game is a bit unresponsive but that combo is a L2p issue to avoid tbh.

The problem with NB aint it's dmg it's the defensive nature of it.

How is that a L2P issue on my opponent? Playing my Nightblade it was extremely easy to drain my opponent of all of their resources by my offensive pressure, especially with them on a Stamplar, to ensure they couldn’t cc break, and then I caught them in a channeled attack.

Literally nothing they could have done to avoid that combo, and it required the bare minimum for me to set it up.

When someone tries to make the argument that a class that gives free Major Resolve, Major Evasion, free roll dodge resets, one of the best burst heals in the game, all of the movement speed, and the ability to quite obviously pressure and then two-tap other players is anything but god-tier easy-mode fighting max handicap Smash Bros, idk what to tell you.

What does this clip have to do with Cloak?

This clip is obviously a super sweaty Rallying Crutch brawler NB build with 25K+ resistances. max crit resist and tons of armor. That's not how the vast majority of Nightblades play the class. As I've said before, the sets and CP choices that sweaty NB's like the one in that clip are using can be used by other classes to do what he's doing there. He's not actually being a Nightblade. He's using the ONE build of Nightblade that can brawl and guess what? Not everyone wants to brawl, as a Nightblade or as another class.

Go play a Nightblade with 12K resistances and 9K armor total and come into Cyrodiil and tell us how "overpowered" they are.

Actual Nightblades use Cloak for far more than escaping when they melee gank someone. They use it to manage resources. They use it to sneak into keeps as they change hands. They use it to evade zergs. You name it.

The kids that use terms like "S-Tier" think there's only one way to play this game and that's to brawl. You have no concept how Nightblade is actually played by the vast majority of those playing it or why they play it. And evidently neither do any of the current Devs on the "combat team".

Are you in disbelief of the fact that every class has an optimal build pattern?

Go make an inferior build like the one you’re referencing on any other class and tell us about your experience.

While it can be annoying that the game feels like it’s balanced around the 1%, if they did anything other than that you would have people making unkillable builds that two-tap others.

Bashev · September 19

ioResult wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

To be fair, that combo should be avoided 99/100 times. Yes sometimes the game is a bit unresponsive but that combo is a L2p issue to avoid tbh.

The problem with NB aint it's dmg it's the defensive nature of it.

How is that a L2P issue on my opponent? Playing my Nightblade it was extremely easy to drain my opponent of all of their resources by my offensive pressure, especially with them on a Stamplar, to ensure they couldn’t cc break, and then I caught them in a channeled attack.

Literally nothing they could have done to avoid that combo, and it required the bare minimum for me to set it up.

When someone tries to make the argument that a class that gives free Major Resolve, Major Evasion, free roll dodge resets, one of the best burst heals in the game, all of the movement speed, and the ability to quite obviously pressure and then two-tap other players is anything but god-tier easy-mode fighting max handicap Smash Bros, idk what to tell you.

What does this clip have to do with Cloak?

This clip is obviously a super sweaty Rallying Crutch brawler NB build with 25K+ resistances. max crit resist and tons of armor. That's not how the vast majority of Nightblades play the class. As I've said before, the sets and CP choices that sweaty NB's like the one in that clip are using can be used by other classes to do what he's doing there. He's not actually being a Nightblade. He's using the ONE build of Nightblade that can brawl and guess what? Not everyone wants to brawl, as a Nightblade or as another class.

Go play a Nightblade with 12K resistances and 9K armor total and come into Cyrodiil and tell us how "overpowered" they are.

Actual Nightblades use Cloak for far more than escaping when they melee gank someone. They use it to manage resources. They use it to sneak into keeps as they change hands. They use it to evade zergs. You name it.

The kids that use terms like "S-Tier" think there's only one way to play this game and that's to brawl. You have no concept how Nightblade is actually played by the vast majority of those playing it or why they play it. And evidently neither do any of the current Devs on the "combat team".

You are right, everybody can build this but only NBs can add cloak to this build which immediately put them on top. Dont you understand how powerful is this skill when added to a good build?

Turtle_Bot · September 19

StaticWave wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

https://youtu.be/3ZCuRe6oLHU?si=N3IoWnjjbJazhSLD

Keep in mind, I hadn’t touched this class for 3-4 years since I made that 1vX clip.

but, but, but, but, but, I was told by the forum-blades that NB is a mega squishy class with zero defense outside of cloak spam that dies to a fart in the breeze and when built tanky has zero damage, zero sustain and still dies to a fart in the breeze.
/s

More serious though, this video here is basically what my experience was every time I played my NB's (yes multiple of them) any time over the past year despite not touching the class before the past year for about the same timeframe as static (3-4 years)...

It gets even easier to pick off targets when you forgo sustain sets like EG and ET for damage procs like tarnished. No need for sustain (despite still having between 2 and 2.5k+ regens) when the targets are all dead within a few seconds without even getting the chance to see me let alone fight back and those few that do get to fight back are easily evaded because I not only have regular LoS/dodge roll, but on demand LoS/non ramping cost mag dodge roll via cloak as well as one of the strongest burst heals in the game (thanks to all the damage/crit bonuses the class has) and very strong HoTs to compliment that burst heal.

Turtle_Bot · September 19

Funny how, after over-buffing NB to the high heavens 2 years ago (and subsequently deleting almost all of the soft counters to cloak over the past 2 years), ZOS determined that to give an alternative to NB in PvP, ZOS felt as though it was necessary to give (or simply not fix) other classes completely broken interactions (all of which were, or currently are, complained about to no end by the same few NB mains crying about the proposed changes to cloak):
- perma AoE CC frostden
- perma corrosive/leaping corrosive DK
- meta max mag ward sorcs
-
The crazy thing is that despite those 3 builds existing (well 2 of which have since been completely deleted from the game unlike this cloak change), NB has remained an S+ tier class that whole time and with a wide variety of builds/playstyles, both melee and range (something no other class, not even sorc, can successfully do in the current range meta). A class that not only competes with those 3 specific builds, but thrives and grows despite them existing, is not a class that is even remotely close to being balanced. Even more so when that same class is thriving despite dedicated "hard counters" because those same "hard counters" are unreliable at best or down right useless at worse because the class has the tools to easily deal with them.

Major_Mangle · September 19

Theist_VII wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

To be fair, that combo should be avoided 99/100 times. Yes sometimes the game is a bit unresponsive but that combo is a L2p issue to avoid tbh.

The problem with NB aint it's dmg it's the defensive nature of it.

How is that a L2P issue on my opponent? Playing my Nightblade it was extremely easy to drain my opponent of all of their resources by my offensive pressure, especially with them on a Stamplar, to ensure they couldn’t cc break, and then I caught them in a channeled attack.

Literally nothing they could have done to avoid that combo, and it required the bare minimum for me to set it up.

When someone tries to make the argument that a class that gives free Major Resolve, Major Evasion, free roll dodge resets, one of the best burst heals in the game, all of the movement speed, and the ability to quite obviously pressure and then two-tap other players is anything but god-tier easy-mode fighting max handicap Smash Bros, idk what to tell you.

I´ll set aside the fact that sometimes the game isn´t responsive and stuff doesn´t work (you never balance the game with that in mind anyway), and yes in those scenarios it is what it is. But the entire combo off incap --> bow proc requires 2 GCD´s + the travel time of the bow proc. It´s more than enough time to break free and block or dodge the follow up bow proc. Have I´ve been hit with the combo myself? Of course I´ve, but when I do I can´t blame anyone but myself since that specific combo has tons of counterplay (especially in a duel). Only time you´re ever guaranteed to land a bow proc is when it´s used after a medium weave on an off-balanced target (but that stun is countered by block so there is counterplay to that as well) or after a stun from soul tether (which can also be blocked). In terms of sustain, I personally don´t get how people run out of sustain in CP enabled PvP. especially in duels.

My point is that the entire offensive combo/toolkit from NB has good counterplay, which is why I don´t think the damage they can deal is a problem (and people need to stop posting overkill values as if they´re accurate to begin with). The problem is that NB is way too tanky (not as much of a problem in NOCP where pressure/dot builds is almost a hard counter to the class).

Theist_VII · September 19

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

For those that think playing a NB in PVP is easy it is not.

To be fair, that combo should be avoided 99/100 times. Yes sometimes the game is a bit unresponsive but that combo is a L2p issue to avoid tbh.

The problem with NB aint it's dmg it's the defensive nature of it.

How is that a L2P issue on my opponent? Playing my Nightblade it was extremely easy to drain my opponent of all of their resources by my offensive pressure, especially with them on a Stamplar, to ensure they couldn’t cc break, and then I caught them in a channeled attack.

Literally nothing they could have done to avoid that combo, and it required the bare minimum for me to set it up.

When someone tries to make the argument that a class that gives free Major Resolve, Major Evasion, free roll dodge resets, one of the best burst heals in the game, all of the movement speed, and the ability to quite obviously pressure and then two-tap other players is anything but god-tier easy-mode fighting max handicap Smash Bros, idk what to tell you.

I´ll set aside the fact that sometimes the game isn´t responsive and stuff doesn´t work (you never balance the game with that in mind anyway), and yes in those scenarios it is what it is. But the entire combo off incap --> bow proc requires 2 GCD´s + the travel time of the bow proc. It´s more than enough time to break free and block or dodge the follow up bow proc. Have I´ve been hit with the combo myself? Of course I´ve, but when I do I can´t blame anyone but myself since that specific combo has tons of counterplay (especially in a duel). Only time you´re ever guaranteed to land a bow proc is when it´s used after a medium weave on an off-balanced target (but that stun is countered by block so there is counterplay to that as well) or after a stun from soul tether (which can also be blocked). In terms of sustain, I personally don´t get how people run out of sustain in CP enabled PvP. especially in duels.

My point is that the entire offensive combo/toolkit from NB has good counterplay, which is why I don´t think the damage they can deal is a problem (and people need to stop posting overkill values as if they´re accurate to begin with). The problem is that NB is way too tanky (not as much of a problem in NOCP where pressure/dot builds is almost a hard counter to the class).

You’re asking how people run out of sustain with CP when constantly needing to block-cast or roll-cancel their whole rotation in fear of a 10k concealed weapon and 20k spec bow combo?

Normal dueling sweats aren’t running Wretched, and when you don’t let your opponent drop block to LA weave, Essence Thief is useless.

Anifaas · September 19

Baconlad wrote: »

The issue isn't yeah...this is the way it should be. Stamina classes should not be able to rely on a magic based ability for most of their defense. Like a magic class shouldn't be able to rely on dodge rolling. This is called balance. You want to stay cloaked then run magblade

So then I take it you think stamDKs need to be ruined too?

Oldaraness · September 19

All of you are so excited to see a NB nerf but you don't think that this change will go in the opposit direction you want. With a toggle for Cloak you will see more bombers, more 2-3 NB working together and more ranged NB... exspecially the new ones.

The toggle is a sh*t. Want to increase mag cost, ok. Want to delete mag regen during the cloak, ok. We can adapt to these changes but a toggle for this skill + zero regen + more mag cost is too much.

And is too much because this is the only skill that characterizes' this class.

All the NB should be tanky... but why? why all the classe must be tanky? Because anyone dosesn't know how to react vs a NB attack? I can't kill this tankyshit of perma-block, perma-heal, perma-all tank and so? I play in any case, I know there are a ton of player I can't kill alone, I attack other players... you will kill by a NB sometimes in short time, it's ok, it's design for this. Another time you will not killed by this NB because you have learned how react to him. If you will be killed by the same NB more and more times... isn't a problem of the class.

StaticWave · September 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Even more so when that same class is thriving despite dedicated "hard counters" because those same "hard counters" are unreliable at best or down right useless at worse because the class has the tools to easily deal with them.

Hard counters like Camo Hunter, Inner Light, Radiant Light, etc. just don't work because of location desync and easy access to stacking movement speed. The only reliable counter for Cloak is detect potions, which only lasts 15s and still requires you to have decent movement speed to catch up to a fleeing NB. If a NB survives that 15s window, he's basically reset the fight.

There is a reason why apart from magsorc, NB is the only other class that can build 100% damage with zero defense and still have high survivability in PvP content. Cloak just allows the player to completely ignore defensive stats and front load everything into damage.

People who have never played anything but gank NB or relied on Cloak too much will never understand what normal theory crafting is, hence the multiple statements about "Rallying Crutch" or "tanky meta brawler". If they had actually played a regular build without crutching on Cloak they would have understood that Rallying Cry and building tanky are a necessity in this meta.

ZhuJiuyin · September 19

Many players are acting as if Cloak has been removed from the game. But Cloak is just nerfed, NB can still use the new-Cloak to play most of the existing gameplay. Cloak just comes with some costs, making playing NB more challenging, but this will definitely not destroy NB, NB is still Will be one of the most powerful calss in PVP.

If you feel that Cloak nerf will make your NB unplayable, maybe you should first try to examine whether you rely too much on Cloak?

Iriidius · September 19

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

So on XboxNA like 1/2 of Cyros leaderboard is NB. Been consistently about 3x the number of NBs vs any other class this year.

Despite their immortality, typically only around 4 Necros - and they're probably all VD DC builds.

1. Leaderboard just means someone has the ability to play 10+ hours a day, or they leech ticks, or both.
2. In GH this is not true on any alliance.
3. What NBs are on the leaderboard in GH are almost all not relying on cloak as their main defense. They are running high health and shields like a vast majority of other players and are magblades. they only use cloak for very specific circumstances. If you want to nerf those builds, nerf their survivability. But of course we can't do that.

1. You only need 10+ hours for first few ranks competing for emperor in a full campaign with much competition, making 6 million ap in a month will usually got you in top 5 on blackreach and top 10 in grey host is about 2 hours every day with 100k ap per hour. And players going for emperor probably will also rather play a strong class especially if they have to spend the whole month on that class
Top 100 which other than top 10 shows the classes is a big sample and as a regular PvP player you will get into it as it only requires few hours a month.

2. Comments claiming half Cyrodiil plays 1 class are usually very exaggerated, nb and sorc both seems to have around 25% with nb slightly higher, only togehter they are half of Cyrodiil.
3. Most brawlerblades did not even slot claok before major savagery was added for it but rather used camo hunter and now use it mainly for major savagery, guaranteed crit and vamp passive, cloak only got worse because nb got stronger and more common.

Iriidius · September 19

Stafford197 wrote: »

The issue is kind of complex now but I think there are some major points to make here about super tanky PvP builds.

1. ZOS rebalanced Health, Magicka and Stamina in the past to where it became much less punishing on your damage output to lose points from your primary resource.

2. Hybridization leads to us using our off-resource more often, especially on Stam builds. This means we want more points in our off-resource, when we previously did not care. Naturally this causes Tri-Stat glyphs to become the go to glyphs since they grant additional stats.

3. Some classes… (NB)… have unbelievable single target burst damage. If you don’t stack high health you will simply get oneshot without even seeing it coming. Stack Health to not get oneshot from stealth.

4. Even recent changes are pushing players to stack Health. EX: Warden Arctic Blast is taking a nerf, meaning many players who used to run that ability will now switch to Polar Wind, which scales from Health, further incentivizing stacking extra Health when they otherwise might not have

Exactly this, stacking health would not be that effektive if magicka and stamina would be decent dmg stats and not so bad that people forget them when boasting with their dmg stats. And you can replace magicka and stamina on attribute points and armor glyphs only with health and not with weapon dmg, thrassian strangler also requires kill 50 enemys and not to dodge or change Zone. ZOS needs to give back the 20% stat increase from cp.

And proc sets should not scale with health or wpn dmg, people asked for proc set scaling with dmg stats because tanks used proc sets to deal dmg, now you have to stack 44k hp to get prenerf value of sets like cyrodiils crest that were not even part of u27-u29 proc meta while proc meta sets like crimson twilight got additional direct nerf anyway and we still have tanks using procs for dmg because high wpn dmg does scaling not necessarily mean not tanky as it does not scale with mag/stam at all and you can replace them with health and get 45k hp 7k wpn dmg,

Iriidius · September 19

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

It's always sunny in Cyrodiil if your "way to play" is never ending combat, surviving massively overwhelming odds, or spoiling the entire map because 30 people can't bring down 3 tanks burning all the siege.

3 tanks? Wait till they make this Cloak toggle silliness go live and you have 30 or more former Nightblades walking around in Cyrodiil on Immortal Wardens instead of their now useless Nightblades, burning all the siege and standing on keep flags making it impossible for the other factions to take a single keep.

It’s coming.

Enjoy the endless combat tank meta that the “nerf Cloak” crowd thinks they wanted. Former Nightblades will make sure no one ever dies in Cyrodiil or the new BGs. After all, ZOS ruined their game and playstyle.

You do realize nightblades will still be able to kill most players with 2 buttons right? Their damage is still insane, it's just the defense/survivability is getting adjusted to compensate for your toolkit.

First of all. No.

Most players are running too high health/shields to be killed in two shots. The only players getting killed in two shots are also running lower health DPS builds.

I am pro lowering damage IF you also lower survivability.

I don't understand how I am being penalized when I already have under 10k resistances and 27k health. I do this so I CAN deliver enough damage to fight someone with 10k more health and 20k more armor.

The problem isn't that it is a toggle. The problem is that it's stupid. Xynode, being xynode, claims this means it will require "skill" to use. Shadowy already requires skill to use. People acting like I can just go sit in a corner and hit shadowy infinitely. No, I can't. First off, why would I. Second off, I need magicka for other purposes. Such as healing. I can't blast away on Shadowy and expect to not to die quickly.

Shadowy Disguise has the most counters in game over any other skill. You have multiple skills that counter it. You have multiple sets that either directly counter it or have traits that make it harder to kill them from stealth. You have champion points that help counter it. And every time, every time they add some other counter, there is still nothing but non-stop complaints about nightblades because people want to treat PVP like PVE. They don't want to die. They want to have endless combat without their ability to survive being out overwhelmed by burst damage.

Players of all classes who actually like to do damage and don't sweat dying have been living in Tank Meta Land for 3 years since Wake Flame. That is how long it has been since we had a damage meta. All these players have gotten fat on buff after buff after buff to survivability and people who just want to have reasonable TTK have had to eat it or move on.

This is it for me. It can be a toggle without it being absolutely absurd. And I'm sure they will amend this and make it "more reasonable" like they always do. The problem is that "reasonable" backtrack will only seem reasonable giving the initial extreme approach.

Here's how you do it.

Make it a toggle if you must. Keep the cost but leave recovery on. I pay money to run Bear Haunch I shouldn't have it eaten away while 45k tanks have twice my base mag recovery while perma blocking.

The moment I get detected, the skill should END. And that 10% damage buff to monsters should apply to all enemies because if you're going to inconvenience me to have to enable and disable a skill when no other skill in this game requires that, then I should get something out of it.

Or they could just do this:

Lower battle spirit damage.
Nerf Tarnished harder.
Decrease damage by 2% for every heavy armor piece worn. If you want to be a tank, you shouldn't also be a damage dealer and your heals should not out pace an actual healer.
Make Bastion 15% increase to shield strength and 30% increase to shield damage so it's actually useful.

There you go. Less damage for everyone while also limiting the effectiveness of tanking brawling that has completely taken over PVP. You remove Tarnished from NBs (which let's admit, is one of the biggest complaints even though it's much more annoying with 8 tanks wearing it). NBs will go back to using either much less useful proc sets or, even better, damage/crit builds.

You don't need to completely kill off the defining skill of the class. That's what this does. Anyone who thinks otherwise simply are not familiar with running a stealth-based build, or they haven't thought of the numerous negative impacts this will have.

Seriously, I don't even know how I'll get into a keep anymore with a toggle rather than being able to surgically use shadowy from spot to spot. Guards are insane at pulling you out. I don't know how I'll evade players who are actively searching for me with detects because I'll have to spend all my magicka on the move rather than being able to pick and choose when to stealth. Both of those situations require more skill than simply "setting it and forgetting it."

What this does is it sets up a situation where I am completely removed from combat for long periods of time, cowering away somewhere while battle happens. Maybe that's what people want.

Incredible that people still complain about heavy armor when 5 medium is meta in Cyrodiil even for Tanks. IN 2020 heavy armor, offensive sets and armorglpyhs+attributepoints in mag/stam was usual, now you have 45k hp warden "DDs" and DKs wearing mara/hist(/rallyngcry/kynmarcher/otherdefset)+trickery+bloodspawn but still medium armor. You already loose out on dmg passives from other armor when wearing heavy, no need to additionaly nerf heavy armor that is already weaker than medium. And some players maybe just prefer wearing steel/"rubedite" like a real knight rather than skin of dead animals.

elven.were_wolf · September 19

Lol. I’m a NB that plays like a brawler. And even though I have cloak slotted I literally don’t even bother pressing the button. I’m glad I never got the habit to cloak defensively, otherwise I would be in shambles right now. Guess, I’ll just slot a scribed skill with a shield and call it a day.
The only time I used cloak anyway is in PvE to run through a delve without aggro.

ZDunlain · September 19

Sorry but, nightblades crying is making my day better, the reasons given are really bad. If people have a hard time playing nb, it is skill issue, nb is really broken in PvP. Go and play right now templar or necro and tell me how it feels chasing invisible-roll dodge nightblades running like a F1 car and engaging when they want. The same can be said about sorcs.

MincMincMinc · September 19

ZDunlain wrote: »

Sorry but, nightblades crying is making my day better, the reasons given are really bad. If people have a hard time playing nb, it is skill issue, nb is really broken in PvP. Go and play right now templar or necro and tell me how it feels chasing invisible-roll dodge nightblades running like a F1 car and engaging when they want. The same can be said about sorcs.

Facts

"the toggle cant be activated in lag" ..... uh the normal skill cant be activated in lag equally
"I prefer to waste GCDs pressing the skill every 2.5 seconds" ...... uh why?
"I can't run between keeps while fully invis" ...........uh sorcs cant streak 40x in a row between keeps anymore either
"I cant gank anymore its impossible".............You sure? I watch pelican 1 shot gank in-between zergs on a sorc
"detect pots are bugging it out on pts"............Ok so report the bug

When really the only thing to complain about is the mag regen cut. Instead the cost should just be ramping. Id base it off of a 30k pool and say you should be able to maintain invis for about 10+seconds. Calc that out to a 3500 initial cost with a 1000mag ramp each 2s

Frostmear · September 20

Yes, nightblade is the problem. Everyone builds into being tanky because 40% of the population in Cyrodiil is gankblades spamming cloak.

System_Data · September 20

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Even more so when that same class is thriving despite dedicated "hard counters" because those same "hard counters" are unreliable at best or down right useless at worse because the class has the tools to easily deal with them.

Hard counters like Camo Hunter, Inner Light, Radiant Light, etc. just don't work because of location desync and easy access to stacking movement speed. The only reliable counter for Cloak is detect potions, which only lasts 15s and still requires you to have decent movement speed to catch up to a fleeing NB. If a NB survives that 15s window, he's basically reset the fight.

There is a reason why apart from magsorc, NB is the only other class that can build 100% damage with zero defense and still have high survivability in PvP content. Cloak just allows the player to completely ignore defensive stats and front load everything into damage.

People who have never played anything but gank NB or relied on Cloak too much will never understand what normal theory crafting is, hence the multiple statements about "Rallying Crutch" or "tanky meta brawler". If they had actually played a regular build without crutching on Cloak they would have understood that Rallying Cry and building tanky are a necessity in this meta.

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

MincMincMinc · September 20

System_Data wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Even more so when that same class is thriving despite dedicated "hard counters" because those same "hard counters" are unreliable at best or down right useless at worse because the class has the tools to easily deal with them.

Hard counters like Camo Hunter, Inner Light, Radiant Light, etc. just don't work because of location desync and easy access to stacking movement speed. The only reliable counter for Cloak is detect potions, which only lasts 15s and still requires you to have decent movement speed to catch up to a fleeing NB. If a NB survives that 15s window, he's basically reset the fight.

There is a reason why apart from magsorc, NB is the only other class that can build 100% damage with zero defense and still have high survivability in PvP content. Cloak just allows the player to completely ignore defensive stats and front load everything into damage.

People who have never played anything but gank NB or relied on Cloak too much will never understand what normal theory crafting is, hence the multiple statements about "Rallying Crutch" or "tanky meta brawler". If they had actually played a regular build without crutching on Cloak they would have understood that Rallying Cry and building tanky are a necessity in this meta.

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

Movement balance was destroyed after the summerset and murkmire changes. They added swift jewelry overtuned and instead of addressing the new dlc content, zos the good ole nerf everything else. Snares on everything, frost buffs, immov skills nerfed..... just to leave RATs(predator) as the best skill in the game. The speed cap isnt the issue, it is the issue of speed consistency. RATs is the worst embodiment of this. It allows players to go from crawling to max movement speed in one click. Snare immunity and Major expedition in one skill should not exist.

They also decided to not touch expedition in the Major/Minor rework.

Major should be 15 (pots could then give full uptime instead of the weird 1/3rd duration)
Minor should be 8
Rats and Predator should just give 6s of immunity + damage buff
Forward momentum should be reverted to the 8s it was when it was useful with the hot
Stamsorc having lost its place as the "speed" class could probably have hurricane give major like bound or a unique 10%
nb now having minor seems silly to me, but it could stay

The tank meta is an issue of stat tension. Nobody cares to stack max stats since they are useless on anything other than a shieldsorc. One line of WD gives 1.8x damage compared to max one line of max stam. One line of Pen gives 2.4x damage compared to one line of max stam...... so why would you ever choose it? Tri stats glyphs are more efficient, so why not always choose them? Attributes can be swapped to health and you wont notice a damage loss. The most efficient food in the game gives max health and all the regen you'd ever need, so why would you choose otherwise? At the end it is easy to have 40k+ hp without making any sacrifices damage or healing wise.

StaticWave · September 20

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

System_Data · September 20

StaticWave wrote: »

System_Data wrote: »

I agree for the most part, but things like stacking movement speed and location desync aren't NBs fault. Anyone can stack movement speed and location desyncs are from ZOS bad servers. Could they have address those issues separately from cloak? Yes. Did they? Welp, this is what we get.

To be fair, stacking movement speed along with streak sounds just as fun. Currently, apart from Templars and Necromancers, i see most of the classes viable and pretty close in strength. They all got something going for them.

I don't it's fair to say everyone doesn't theorycraft just because they're playing gankers. Maybe they don't theorycraft as deep as some, but you have to admit there is truth in that it's been the tanky meta for at least half a decade. The reality is no one goes into cyrodiil wearing glass cannons. NB allowed that as a break from tanking up. I don't think the solution of removing that playstyle or making it harder to access that playstyle is healthy in the long term for this game. Like i said previously, if ZOS deleted NBs from the game, people would still build tanky. People need to die. I rather see people dropping likes flies then having everyone being near unkillable.

It's partly ZOS's fault for making movement speed so widely accessible. Magsorc and stamsorc are the most affected by this change as well because they can no longer leverage their superior movement speed and kiting abilities against their opponents. This change also affected NBs too, both negatively and positively. NBs can build more movement speed to traverse while in Cloak, but are also at risk of being caught up by people who also invested into movement speed.

I think gankers do as much theorycrafting as a 1vXer, but when they say "X set is a crutch" or "building tanky is a crutch", I think they're ignoring the glaring difference between theorycrafting as a ganker and theorycrafting as a 1vXer/normal player. Gankers don't need to invest into defense as much as a 1vXer, especially if that 1vXer doesn't use Cloak. When you can disappear from the screen at will, you don't really need to worry about taking multiple small instances of damage from 5-6 other people. Those small instances of damage will add up. In a normal full damage build, I take on average, 1.5-2.5k damage from a light attack. Now multiple that value by 5 to represent fighting 5 opponents, and suddenly I'm taking somewhere between 7.5k to 12.5k damage from a simple light attack. Now add 5-6 DoTs on top of negligible damage such as Ele Sus status effect procs, but from multiple opponents, and now you're taking somewhere between 13k to 15k damage instantly.

This is precisely the reason why sets like Rallying Cry and building tanky are needed. When you don't have the luxury of disappearing from the screen, you have to adapt to survive. I tried running a full damage build in Cyro for a month and I just could not survive when the number of enemies increase to 4+. A NB with good usage of Cloak and positioning can take on that fight no problem. The only way for me to survive that fight is to either engage in extreme kiting or build super tanky, which is currently what I'm doing.

You just highlighted the need for being tanky because you are getting hit by multiple people, regardless if they're NBs though. That's still a ZOS issue because they can't balance their game and as well as allowing people to build so tanky. It goes both ways, if you're opponent isn't tanky, you might kill off one or two and escape easier. I'm not saying building tanky is wrong, i'm saying this is a ZOS issue and their ignorance of PvP.

NB being able to not deal with that is part of the caveat of being an NB, which anyone can choose to play as. There's no reason that every class should be having an easy time dealing with multiple opponents. Honestly, if they didn't allow NBs to have access to high damage skills or passive Major Resolve, things would be fine. People wouldn't complain as much about an NB lurking around if their damage weren't capable of easily deleting people.

This is why i have an issue with this change. Their damage is still there, they can still be tanky. Tankblades will be still as successful and NBs will still be strong. No ramping cost or this iteration will change that.

Turtle_Bot · September 20

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Movement balance was destroyed after the summerset and murkmire changes. They added swift jewelry overtuned and instead of addressing the new dlc content, zos the good ole nerf everything else. Snares on everything, frost buffs, immov skills nerfed..... just to leave RATs(predator) as the best skill in the game. The speed cap isnt the issue, it is the issue of speed consistency. RATs is the worst embodiment of this. It allows players to go from crawling to max movement speed in one click. Snare immunity and Major expedition in one skill should not exist.

The bolded part is the key here and perfectly describes why magsorc consistently struggled to be anything more than current necro, until ward got over buffed, despite having streak. What good is having streak if you're stuck at a crawl outside of streak because you cannot afford to remove anything from the build to get the same speed everyone else gets for free.

Interesting how after 5 years of pointing this out, ZOS finally looked into it and determined that what was required to fix this, was current overbuffed ward that is now causing its own issues. 🤔🤔🤔

Something to point out, that gets conveniently overlooked (or ignored) by those defending cloak, is that speed is the best tool to counter the "hard counters" to cloak and NB has been one of the biggest beneficiaries of that consistent speed creep you highlighted. Not to mention that speed is also one of the biggest contributors to the current positional desync problem that is currently reducing all "hard counters" to cloak (except detect pots) into complete uselessness.

Unconditional access to BOTH Major + Minor expedition at the same time in the class kit, on already very strong skills. No other class has this kind of access to that much consistent speed, not even the "speed" class, which is forced to choose between the 2 buffs on active skills that require resources to use or run non-class skills to fill the gap.

This wouldn't be so bad if ZOS had kept the conditions NB used to have to get that speed (being in stealth/invis, which also prevent stacking it with sprint speed increase), but nope, it's just there, no conditions, just passively there all the time (minor expedition on concealed on either bar), or press a button for an ability that would be used anyway (major expedition on an already very strong HoT that also provides sustain).