Still nothing for templar ? No burst and no spammable.

Skulptro

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Jabs is already among the better class spammables (heck, it's not even Templar's worst spammable, Sweep and Dark Flare are both worse). Its nerf was well deserved and it doesn't need a buff.

The solution to Templar isn't bringing it back to the one-button Jabs-spammer days, it's buffing/replacing underperforming abilities to enable a new approach.

May be nerf was well deserved, but it was too hard. 25% was way too much. 10-15% coul be fine. Why not 25%? May be because it is a channel, so no block-casting. May be because it is not targeted, so if the enemy is moving, especially if moving fast + ping + lag = damage is not registrated. Where you see a person on your screen is where the person was 1-1.3 seconds ago, so server thinks, that you are jabbing the air near the target. Sometimes you hit 1 of 3 jabs, sometimes 2. Only in very specific situations you can reliably land all 3 jabs. So the REAL tooltip is 2/3 of it's number in skill description.

And it was never one button. You also needed CC, also needed PotL and Ultimate inside of your offensive combo.

I have to admit, that there is a tonn of problems with class. When we had our skills actually doing some damage, all this problems were not so obvious.

Major_Mangle

Theist_VII wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Templar from a PvP perspective is good as long as you're not in an outnumbered situation. It's a fantastic class in smaller groups and will always have a spot in a duo (or at least it won't be bad). In duels templar is easily an S tier class, if not the best (even tho duels are mainly a sets vs sets thingy, templar is an incredibly strong spec for that scenario)

In terms of survivability templar is more than fine, the problem is that you rarely have an offensive window. Back when bubble (eclipse) was carrying templar survivability you had that, but it was objectively way too good.

What templar needs in PvP is to move some of the power away from beam and give it to backlash (amd maybe jabs/sweeps).

Templar is only decent in a 1v1 because of Extended Ritual.

Even now though, players are getting more and more access to ways to flood negative effects, making that skill completely useless, and I mean look at Jarall’s. As soon as that set is introduced to a 1v1 and you’re on the receiving end as a Templar, you’ve lost the fight, there is no other class so complete and utterly shut down by a 2-piece. No debate whatsoever.

That’s also why they are absolute trash when fighting outnumbered. When players were only capable of 2-3 negative effects on you at a time, the class was much more approachable.

Adding more ways to protect against yourself from those negative effects should be paramount to improving the gameplay experience of the class.

That could look like a buff to Sun Shield as a buffer for your heal-over-times, Radiant Aura/Repentance could receive a selfish sustain benefit that would allow for more casting of Extended Ritual, or they could just outright double the amount of negative effects removed by the skill.

Making Sun Shield into a skill worth slotting seems to me, to be the least game breaking option, as infinite sustain or endless negative effect removal is not healthy for the game.

I´d argue that rune focus is a much bigger reason to why templar is so tanky in 1v1, but when you stack rune, ritual and vigor you do get a large amount of passive healing going on.

And I agree with you on Jerall (and relequen for that matter), these sets are a massive balance issue since they essentially have little to no counterplay (in CP enabled PvP you can run the cleanse CP, but in nocp you´re basically forced to run wyrd tree if you want an option to deal with jerall users). They basically hardcounter your ability to get rid of negative effects since every stack of Jerall/Relequen is considered its own negative effect.

Skulptro

[/quote]Making Sun Shield into a skill worth slotting seems to me, to be the least game breaking option, as infinite sustain or endless negative effect removal is not healthy for the game.[/quote]


but it is not. In PvE scaling with enemies hit makes it into a good-amoun shield. But in PvP it is still useless even against NPCs on flags. I made a video, you saw it. I can just press Honor the Dead one more time to keep my health high, instead of wasting a slot on a small-*** shield, who's amount isn't even enough to swap bars and press burst heal button.

I made the same exact build on live server to try that out. Went Cyro. Faced a sork. I've been standing in my rune ther whole time, spamming heals, while he is streaking around and nuking from distance. And, yeah, I have to admit, I used another morph of ritual, that causes damage. But all of that doesn't matter. I used my shield 2-3 times at max. Most of the time I just used a burst heal. AND!!! Moreover, my burst heal was Weild Soul with Major Vitality + Druid's Embrace. And it heals for the same amount as Honor the Dead does, And also costs less ALL THE TIME, not only if you have 75 or less HP, and also Vitality is allways 12% and on all the healing sources and shields. Healing Soul is better then Honor The Dead. Period.

Syiccal

Skulptro wrote: »

Making Sun Shield into a skill worth slotting seems to me, to be the least game breaking option, as infinite sustain or endless negative effect removal is not healthy for the game.[/quote]


but it is not. In PvE scaling with enemies hit makes it into a good-amoun shield. But in PvP it is still useless even against NPCs on flags. I made a video, you saw it. I can just press Honor the Dead one more time to keep my health high, instead of wasting a slot on a small-*** shield, who's amount isn't even enough to swap bars and press burst heal button.

I made the same exact build on live server to try that out. Went Cyro. Faced a sork. I've been standing in my rune ther whole time, spamming heals, while he is streaking around and nuking from distance. And, yeah, I have to admit, I used another morph of ritual, that causes damage. But all of that doesn't matter. I used my shield 2-3 times at max. Most of the time I just used a burst heal. AND!!! Moreover, my burst heal was Weild Soul with Major Vitality + Druid's Embrace. And it heals for the same amount as Honor the Dead does, And also costs less ALL THE TIME, not only if you have 75 or less HP, and also Vitality is allways 12% and on all the healing sources and shields. Healing Soul is better then Honor The Dead. Period.
[/quote]

I don't agree with healing soul, honour the dead below 75% is like 60% off the cost effectively and healing soul when near others very rarely gave me the heal.

Skulptro

you have 25% cashback if the target was 75% or less. And this magic isn't returned instantly, but over time. Healing Soul gives 600 magic + 600 Stamina back instantly. And Major Vitality to a target.

But I agree, there are two things that make Honor The Dead even an option. Granting 2 ultimate to a healed target. But I'm not sure if it counts to yourself. And target priority, which you are correct with, indeed. Sometimes it's frustrating.

Syiccal

It's 18% every 2s for 6 seconds meaning near on 60% back. Target priority is far more important any way and I don't get on with healing soul

ArctosCethlenn

=

Skulptro wrote: »

you have 25% cashback if the target was 75% or less. And this magic isn't returned instantly, but over time. Healing Soul gives 600 magic + 600 Stamina back instantly. And Major Vitality to a target.

But I agree, there are two things that make Honor The Dead even an option. Granting 2 ultimate to a healed target. But I'm not sure if it counts to yourself. And target priority, which you are correct with, indeed. Sometimes it's frustrating.

Syiccal wrote: »

It's 18% every 2s for 6 seconds meaning near on 60% back. Target priority is far more important any way and I don't get on with healing soul

There's an initial tick, so 72% over 4 ticks. for me in testing each tick was about 740 mag, so ofc no stam refund like healing soul, but an ocean more mag alongside better priority targeting, as folks mentioned.

Galeriano2

As long as beam exists in its current form templar will not get acces to higher burst dmg. Strong spammables can be outsourced from outside of the class though.

Beam and partially also javelin are holding templar back from getting PvP related buffs in mentioned areas.

gariondavey

Please for the love of Pete just rework potl to be a templar copy of curse or assassins will or deep fissure

Galeriano2

gariondavey wrote: »

Please for the love of Pete just rework potl to be a templar copy of curse or assassins will or deep fissure

Like I said earlier that would cause massive issues considering current state of the javelin and beam.

Stafford197

gariondavey wrote: »

Please for the love of Pete just rework potl to be a templar copy of curse or assassins will or deep fissure

Not saying you’re wrong, but wow how boring is this.
“Make my class ability literally just copy an ability from another class.” And this is a popular sentiment too.

These classes (and even Mag vs Stam!) are homogenized beyond belief at this point.

Skulptro

I have an Idea about Sun Shield. It's amount in PvP is already not too big, but asks for 6 enemies around you to get maximum capacity.
Let's s look at it from both tanking and PvP points. Tanks don't allways have 6 enemies on them. PvPer doesn't allways have 6 people in melee range on him.

What I suggest is to split the abount of bonuses unevenly. Total bonus may stay the same. For example, there is +120% in total, now on PTS. Let it be +70% per first enemy and +10% for each other enemy. So in total it is the same 120%. Exact numbers are up to combat team to tweak, but the idea is that even if there is an only enemy, but you stay on it, you get a good shield. In PvP, or as a Main Tank, you will not loose basically all the shield's strength. Yes, you can't get a fat shield if you are far away from your target, but if you play the way it's intended, you benefit.

Single-boss fights - templar tanks are happy not to be punished for having a single enemy, PvP templars are happy to have a new(old) shiny tool.

JUST DO IT.

If anyone wants to copy that into other threads, please, do so. I'm writing from my phone, I'm at work, so I won't be able to do it for next 8-10 hours probably. Stones aren't gonna cut themselves into roses, you know.

the1andonlyskwex

Stafford197 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Please for the love of Pete just rework potl to be a templar copy of curse or assassins will or deep fissure

Not saying you’re wrong, but wow how boring is this.
“Make my class ability literally just copy an ability from another class.” And this is a popular sentiment too.

These classes (and even Mag vs Stam!) are homogenized beyond belief at this point.

One option (that I'm sure won't please everyone) would be to go back to how backlash used to work ages ago, where damage done by group members also counted toward the scaling. That would make it more reliable in group PvP, and dramatically improve it for PvE tanks and healers. It would also keep its unique identity. The downside is obviously that it doesn't do anything for duelists, 1vXers, or other solo players, but I'm not convinced ZOS really balances for them anyway.

huskandhunger

I would like to see Templar returned to area of denial gameplay since we see so much ground AOEs with Ritual and Rune and more active gameplay overall.

-for both morphs of jabs, each one will now heal for 33% damage dealt.

-for Ritual of Retribution make it snare for 40% or ramping damage per second scaling 50% per second up to 500% increased damage.

-for Extended Ritual - make it cleanse 3 effects every 5 seconds continuously or some such constant pattern, or cleanse all effects after 20 seconds.

-For Radiant Glory/Oppression/Destruction and its morphs bring the scaling down to 200% down from 500% and make it fire damage instead of just generic magic damage.

-For Power of the Light and Backlash morphs: simply leave the ability as is, but this time since it's so weak and the scaling is impossible to reach when loaded, remove the minor breach, but let the damage bypass all resistances. At least the crappy 2k/3k damage can now get through consistently.

-For Rune and it's morphs, turn it into a Runic Brand and let it be more impactful to walk over it for the Templar and their enemies where it roots the target enemies like a trap if they walk over it to give it active gameplay, instead of just ignored on the ground like a stain. And vice versa if the Templar walks back into their rune each time (cool down of 15 seconds) they gain a unique buff of 3000 damage on their next attack.

MJallday

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Frostmear wrote: »

Hate to be that guy, but until Radiant and Javelin get toned down, plar needs no buffs. Nerf Radiant, make Javelin blockable, range CC"s should never be unblockable Period. Radiant needs to be toned down in PVP but unchanged in PVE, then you can talk about buffing jabs, otherwise we're just gonna go back to another obnoxious plar meta.

Pretty much everyone *wants* radiant to get tuned down, cut its damage and shift more of templar's power into non-execute damage instead of sitting there licking the walls until execute range.

this couldnt be more wrong. any nerf to beam would be terrible for those who do use it in pvp and would kill it in its entireity in pve

pvp - right now javelin is fine for a starter and beam is fine for an ender . the mid range (jabs) is where everthing is let down.. improve the jabs 10% - and then itll be averagely competitive (and still behind other classes)

pve - shards needs to be a bigger aoe, jabs needs 10% if not more and it needs major brutality somwhere.

right now, noone uses plar's in end game pve for dd - its outclassed in every area by the arc, sorc and dk - and in most situations by warden / nb / necro

id go as far as to say its bottom of the pile - which is sad

the1andonlyskwex

huskandhunger wrote: »

I would like to see Templar returned to area of denial gameplay since we see so much ground AOEs with Ritual and Rune and more active gameplay overall.

-for both morphs of jabs, each one will now heal for 33% damage dealt.

-for Ritual of Retribution make it snare for 40% or ramping damage per second scaling 50% per second up to 500% increased damage.

-for Extended Ritual - make it cleanse 3 effects every 5 seconds continuously or some such constant pattern, or cleanse all effects after 20 seconds.

-For Radiant Glory/Oppression/Destruction and its morphs bring the scaling down to 200% down from 500% and make it fire damage instead of just generic magic damage.

-For Power of the Light and Backlash morphs: simply leave the ability as is, but this time since it's so weak and the scaling is impossible to reach when loaded, remove the minor breach, but let the damage bypass all resistances. At least the crappy 2k/3k damage can now get through consistently.

-For Rune and it's morphs, turn it into a Runic Brand and let it be more impactful to walk over it for the Templar and their enemies where it roots the target enemies like a trap if they walk over it to give it active gameplay, instead of just ignored on the ground like a stain. And vice versa if the Templar walks back into their rune each time (cool down of 15 seconds) they gain a unique buff of 3000 damage on their next attack.

I see a lot of proposals to buff Templar skills that are already quite strong. That's not how ZOS (or balance in general) work. You need to focus on making unused skills useful, not on making already strong skills overpowered.

Joy_Division

mmtaniac wrote: »

Execute should be toned down. Every templar main are behind this idea and want that for balancing other offense abilities.

Not this templar main. Have people not been paying attention to the ineffecrive and unsatisfying Templar changes ZoS has given us the past two years in their concerted effort, neigh "crusade", to make Templars better at PvP and tanking? Obvioisly not, otherwise you'd know this route of nerf beam, buff other stuff will only result in a over-nerfed beam and a bunch of impractical and trivial changes in its other abilities that do not move the needle in terms of interest, fun, or power.

As long as 'plars (or any class really) are mid-tier (and that's being generous I'd say only Necros are below them), no nerfs on anything. Even with sonething perceived as being OP, if its still meh, then either the perceived OP thing is overrated or the rest of the class is so bad, the foundation needs to be rebuilt and proven capable before anything else is adjusted.

JWillCHS

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I see a lot of proposals to buff Templar skills that are already quite strong. That's not how ZOS (or balance in general) work. You need to focus on making unused skills useful, not on making already strong skills overpowered.

I like the idea that Nova and it's morph has a pull; and has a reduce the cost. I'd rather have Solar Barrage increase in damage the more it hits its target(s). Unstable Core needs to have it's cost reduced; and/or instead of the different effects happening as your enemy attacks things happen over time(3 seconds) if it's not cleansed. Healing Ritual or Restoring Aura should have a unique buff or debuff that no other class has upon activation(and I encourage ZoS to find something interesting like this for all classes).

gariondavey

Imagine if gravity crush had a 70 percent slow that was uncleansable. People slowed by increased gravity and not even those magical boots could stop it.
Would be very interesting against ballgroups and in choke points.

Theist_VII

gariondavey wrote: »

Imagine if gravity crush had a 70 percent slow that was uncleansable. People slowed by increased gravity and not even those magical boots could stop it.
Would be very interesting against ballgroups and in choke points.

We need this; the snare on the base skill, not the synergy, and if anything, on Solar Prison they could add a root to the synergy.

On top of that, honestly, Snow Treaders need a rework entirely. There should not be a piece of gear that completely removes CC while allowing you to stack movement speed to ignore that penalty.

Skulptro

damn it, we need anything. something.

madmufffin

Just make the impending nerf to beam only impact players. Templars already are enough in PVE. Not Nightblade levels of sad, but still pretty sad. Taking beam from them would be too cruel.

mmtaniac

I like

gariondavey wrote: »

Imagine if gravity crush had a 70 percent slow that was uncleansable. People slowed by increased gravity and not even those magical boots could stop it.
Would be very interesting against ballgroups and in choke points.

This could change much. Make this useless ultimate useful and make me and more people to use Set with nova.
Right now nova is just far from being viable.

IncultaWolf

gariondavey wrote: »

Imagine if gravity crush had a 70 percent slow that was uncleansable. People slowed by increased gravity and not even those magical boots could stop it.
Would be very interesting against ballgroups and in choke points.

I actually like this idea

Jman100582

The main issue really just lies in backlash dmg. Yes jabs suck, even something like dizzy swing is better. For magplar you have force pulse and wield soul. But there are alternatives. But backlash is just so inconsistent it doesn’t make sense whatsoever. I’ve hit crazy potl on some people, highest I’ve seen since the change was 17k (on a jabplar). I’ve hit as high as 8k noncrit. But most of the time it hits for 3-4k after 5 seconds of build up and going full offense on someone. The ability isn’t standardized, there’s no consistency. You can’t count on it to kill people. Which is annoying because it’s the only ability that requires you to go offensive on someone to see a reward…most other delayed burst is just waiting on a timer to count down and lining up another ability to go off at the same time. But there IS NO REWARD running backlash in the vast majority of builds. It isn’t aoe, single target dmg is all over the place. The skill desperately needs a rebalance, tweak, or just needs to be scrapped and recycled again

TechMaybeHic

Its really dumb as my sorc hits harder, from range, moves faster, and survives a lot better than when I run my templar. I chuckle when my sorc gets a sub 3k POTL when my light attack just crit someone right before that for 3k. Templar, I've gone double offensive sets and got jabs to show as 4500 tooltip and be at penetration of 15k or higher and hit someone for 800 per tick. That's if you can stay on them and maintain the HOTs and Living Dark to be off your back foot at the same time. But man, that RO will sure be nice if I manage to actually get someone to 50% outside of them not knowing im there

mmtaniac

I think templar damage scale bad on skills. You can have 3 offensive sets in pvp and still you deal damage compared to nb with two defensive sets. I don't get why is that!?. Templar somehow can't function with battle spirit at all. Every thing battle spirit does are counter to templar. Templar is mostly countered by this debuff. On pve templar i different class, you have nice solid aoe damage and gameplay is good on pvp you become joke.

Syiccal

mmtaniac wrote: »

I think templar damage scale bad on skills. You can have 3 offensive sets in pvp and still you deal damage compared to nb with two defensive sets. I don't get why is that!?. Templar somehow can't function with battle spirit at all. Every thing battle spirit does are counter to templar. Templar is mostly countered by this debuff. On pve templar i different class, you have nice solid aoe damage and gameplay is good on pvp you become joke.

CP also counters jabs in multiple different ways on top of the major and minor evasion that's easily available now. As others have mentioned I can easily achieve a tool tip of 4500+ per jab jet only see numbers between 800-2000 on average if they land at all.
PoL never hits more than 4-5k no matter what I do and is by far the worst 'burst' skill in the game that also requires the most effort to achieve.

Skulptro

Exactly right. You build into damage - no damage. You build into survivability - no survivability. Those tools, that make templar good in PvE simply don't work in PvP. Try to get any healing with sweeps(mag morph of jabs), good luck with that. Works only against NPSs on flags etc. Try to survive inside your ritual - ticks every 2 seconds - will not save you from burst combo. I DO agree, that in duels, when you can stand in BOTH of your circles, you get some healing, but let's also be honest: duels are different from open world PvP, where you can actually earn anything. And I DO AGREE, there are a few S tier players on templars even now. But it's their years and years of game experience, that allows them to compensate for class problems.