Patchnodes the real pvp - why killing cloak ?

Foxtrot39

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

"Finally some decent nightblade balance after 10 years of being the spoiled child"
Every "nightblade one-trick pony chase me build forever" : HOW DARE YOU BALANCE THE GAME TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE FOR OTHER CLASS

That is not true, but I know you are joking.

NB was underdog class a couple of times and for the most part it had its ups & downs (like every class). For most of the time over those 10 years, class was not where it is now, moving from B to A and then to C tier and then B tier etc.

The biggest nerfs happened around Elsweyr. Only around Greymoor and after they were gradually receiving small buffs, till they got to A+ - S tier depending who you will ask.

Right now we see a shift and only class that will be left in S tier will be Sorc.

Still annoyed how the major buff nerf from the Elsweyr gutted the shadow line ultimate into total uselessness save for exclusively balancing passive and it never got compensated despite that the entire ultimate completely relied upon it

fizzylu

@kringled_1
Ah, yeah-- it'd be pretty hard to make one of the current ones work well with an orc. Hopefully they release more simple skins in the future that will complement one.

TechMaybeHic

Went on PTS and tested.
You can still crouch while going into cloak and toggle it off and stay stealth.
Anything that breaks cloak/stealth now on live like activating an ability and taking damage untoggles cloak
The only thing you cant do is anticipate being hit by stuff that will pop you out and just keep hitting cloak. You can keep mashing it I guess but it gets expensive

Feels like a good change to me

moderatelyfatman

CrazyKitty wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

Cloak receives nothing of what they did to jabs damage

Maybe they should make NB's walk on their hands while in cloak or something? Then we could say cloak got the jabs treatment.

Its only jabs treatment if they also have to give up one of their hands as well.

TechMaybeHic

Oh I just realized where there is one spot that cloak will be more prohibitive. If you are in detect range for a bit past people maybe to try to get to a bomb spot, you are going to be draining mag. Is that it?

If it's something else, I'd be curious of why you leave it toggled on long to where its going to get costly. Maybe using it to stay invisible very long in a crowd should be costly. I'd like to hear the scenarios, either way.

Aurielle

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: The current stealth change will make it even more unlikely for PvE players to ever enter PvP zones, as they would often use stealth to complete their goals(event tickets/quests/endeavours/etc). Including me!

Why though, @Sarannah ? Here’s a build someone posted showing how you can permacloak around PVE mobs without getting detected and not having to worry about the magicka drain (so this will work in IC and Cyrodiil as well):

https://youtu.be/DXQX7XKqKdM

And here’s me literally not even having to engage with PVE mobs to finish a quest in IC on a gank build with zero magicka sustain. (The first few seconds of the video are there to show what the magicka drain is like when you’re not using Darloc Brae).

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

If anything, this change makes it easier for PVE players to do PVP quests during events.

spartaxoxo

Darloc Brae is not cloak. This change to the skill does not make things easier. If it did, it would be easier for everyone who uses the skill, not the just Darloc Brae.

Finedaible

You know what, I'll keep quiet if ZoS finally puts purge back on Shadow Cloak like in the olden days. That's the only way I'll use that skill for PvE combat.

Sarannah

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: The current stealth change will make it even more unlikely for PvE players to ever enter PvP zones, as they would often use stealth to complete their goals(event tickets/quests/endeavours/etc). Including me!

Why though, @Sarannah ? Here’s a build someone posted showing how you can permacloak around PVE mobs without getting detected and not having to worry about the magicka drain (so this will work in IC and Cyrodiil as well):

https://youtu.be/DXQX7XKqKdM

And here’s me literally not even having to engage with PVE mobs to finish a quest in IC on a gank build with zero magicka sustain. (The first few seconds of the video are there to show what the magicka drain is like when you’re not using Darloc Brae).

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

If anything, this change makes it easier for PVE players to do PVP quests during events.

Though you are right that may be possible now... it will only actually still get less players to go to PvP areas and stick with PvP eventually. Because having to build around stealth means these players will die even faster to another player than they otherwise would in regular gear, making PvP an even worse experience for them. Making it less likely for them to stick around in PvP for fun after events, as they are even less likely to put up a fight. So this cloak change may actually cause fewer players to stick with PvP because they could have ended up enjoying PvP instead.
Not to mention, players dabbling in PvP just for the rewards(event tickets/endeavours/etc) do NOT want to build an entire build just to do that. Especially if that said build gets changed/altered/nerfed every few months. It's just not worth the effort. Only for min-maxers and PvP die-hards this change will be worth the effort.

There are other ways ZOS could have fixed cloak: Not allowing recloaking within 30 seconds of the previous cloak when in combat, changing magelight to make ganking harder, have cloak be altered only in PvP, place a one minute cooldown on cloak when in combat with another player, etc. The current cloak change as is shown on the PTS is a massive change to a class's identity and should be reconsidered. (I'd also complain if they removed the arcanist's beam or the wardens bear, just to name a few examples.)

Another issue is a toggle. Toggles are bound to either fail or go off too often when you are either lagging/stunned/etc. Causing the cloak toggle to either be on when it should be off, or for it to be off when it should be on. With a skill as cloak is now on live that issue is not there. You press the cloak button and even if you lag you get stealthed, if you press that stealth button twice or three times you still get stealthed. A toggle does not work like that.

Another issue is magicka: This cloak change massively harms inexperienced magicka nightblades, as their primary resource will now be wasted on cloak instead of using it for combat. Causing them to have run out of mana before being able to engage an enemy.

Cloaking isn't just an ability, it is this entire class's identity which many players seemingly use in different ways. Cloaking isn't just for min-maxers in PvP, it is en entire playstyle and class's identity with multiple uses even in PvE. With the new cloak changes the cloak will become less accessible to many players.

Edit: The only issue I see with cloak is the ability to engage and re-stealth immediately, over and over again. Getting the powerful first hit from stealth is fine(including ganking/bombers), but being able to engage in combat and keep re-stealthing to re-engage that same target again and again with a heavy hitting powerful first strike over and over again is broken. As this makes a NB unkillable/untargetable. To me this is the only thing about stealth that needs fixing, the re-stealthing and restealthing over and over after a failed first strike.

SPlDER5

Not having to cast this every 2 seconds, and the reduced cost of the toggle per 2 seconds, will mean on most gankblade/stamina nightblade builds, this will be a net-gain in magicka if you pop a potion. It also will simplify escaping using cloak.

I think seasoned nightblade players will make this work in their favour.

Veinblood1965

They will never get another dime from me if this goes live. It'll be time for a new game. Gutting the core ability of a class that has been fine for ten years means ZoS is out of touch with the player base. Add to the recent vendor changes, changes to jabs, leaves the trust level with me lagging.

What's next? This is the start of a road to ruin for all classes. NB is my main toon however not willing to trust it won't happen to my other favourite classes also.

colossalvoids

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

They will never get another dime from me if this goes live. It'll be time for a new game. Gutting the core ability of a class that has been fine for ten years means ZoS is out of touch with the player base. Add to the recent vendor changes, changes to jabs, leaves the trust level with me lagging.

What's next? This is the start of a road to ruin for all classes. NB is my main toon however not willing to trust it won't happen to my other favourite classes also.

It's the end of the road more like, that was the last class with their identity more or less present. Now it's just gated behind being a good player who likes adjusting for every possible scenario or environment, which is the worst part of it all as it's done nothing to counter actually problematic players.

Aurielle

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Darloc Brae is not cloak. This change to the skill does not make things easier. If it did, it would be easier for everyone who uses the skill, not the just Darloc Brae.

I don’t understand the logic here. ESO is a game where you use sets to your advantage. Why would you not use a set if it gives you an advantage? There are meta sets for every type of activity in the game, as well as sets that synergize well with particular skills. The cloak change absolutely makes PVE stealth gameplay easier when combined with appropriate sets, as you don’t even have to remember to recast cloak anymore.

It’s really frustrating when people double down on their viewpoints when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoints.

Aurielle

Sarannah wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: The current stealth change will make it even more unlikely for PvE players to ever enter PvP zones, as they would often use stealth to complete their goals(event tickets/quests/endeavours/etc). Including me!

Why though, @Sarannah ? Here’s a build someone posted showing how you can permacloak around PVE mobs without getting detected and not having to worry about the magicka drain (so this will work in IC and Cyrodiil as well):

https://youtu.be/DXQX7XKqKdM

And here’s me literally not even having to engage with PVE mobs to finish a quest in IC on a gank build with zero magicka sustain. (The first few seconds of the video are there to show what the magicka drain is like when you’re not using Darloc Brae).

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

If anything, this change makes it easier for PVE players to do PVP quests during events.

Though you are right that may be possible now... it will only actually still get less players to go to PvP areas and stick with PvP eventually. Because having to build around stealth means these players will die even faster to another player than they otherwise would in regular gear, making PvP an even worse experience for them. Making it less likely for them to stick around in PvP for fun after events, as they are even less likely to put up a fight. So this cloak change may actually cause fewer players to stick with PvP because they could have ended up enjoying PvP instead.
Not to mention, players dabbling in PvP just for the rewards(event tickets/endeavours/etc) do NOT want to build an entire build just to do that. Especially if that said build gets changed/altered/nerfed every few months. It's just not worth the effort. Only for min-maxers and PvP die-hards this change will be worth the effort.

Thing is, most PVE players weren’t actively engaging in PVP anyway when they got caught with the current iteration of cloak. I know, because I’ve killed my fair share of them over the years. They try to spam cloak a few times, hold block, then send hate whispers when you have the audacity of killing them in a PVP zone.

As for the logic that a stealth-focused build for PVP quest easy-mode is “only for min-maxers and PvP die-hards”… how do you figure that? PVEers have builds for so many types of activities. Why not also have a build for PVP quest easy/mode during events? You don’t even have to change your CP allocations for the first build video I posted. Get the scribed skill, throw on Darloc Brae, press three buttons (banner, crouch, cloak), finish the quests without even having to kill the mobs. How much easier than that does it get?

JustLovely

Sarannah wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: The current stealth change will make it even more unlikely for PvE players to ever enter PvP zones, as they would often use stealth to complete their goals(event tickets/quests/endeavours/etc). Including me!

Why though, @Sarannah ? Here’s a build someone posted showing how you can permacloak around PVE mobs without getting detected and not having to worry about the magicka drain (so this will work in IC and Cyrodiil as well):

https://youtu.be/DXQX7XKqKdM

And here’s me literally not even having to engage with PVE mobs to finish a quest in IC on a gank build with zero magicka sustain. (The first few seconds of the video are there to show what the magicka drain is like when you’re not using Darloc Brae).

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

If anything, this change makes it easier for PVE players to do PVP quests during events.

Though you are right that may be possible now... it will only actually still get less players to go to PvP areas and stick with PvP eventually. Because having to build around stealth means these players will die even faster to another player than they otherwise would in regular gear, making PvP an even worse experience for them. Making it less likely for them to stick around in PvP for fun after events, as they are even less likely to put up a fight. So this cloak change may actually cause fewer players to stick with PvP because they could have ended up enjoying PvP instead.
Not to mention, players dabbling in PvP just for the rewards(event tickets/endeavours/etc) do NOT want to build an entire build just to do that. Especially if that said build gets changed/altered/nerfed every few months. It's just not worth the effort. Only for min-maxers and PvP die-hards this change will be worth the effort.

There are other ways ZOS could have fixed cloak: Not allowing recloaking within 30 seconds of the previous cloak when in combat, changing magelight to make ganking harder, have cloak be altered only in PvP, place a one minute cooldown on cloak when in combat with another player, etc. The current cloak change as is shown on the PTS is a massive change to a class's identity and should be reconsidered. (I'd also complain if they removed the arcanist's beam or the wardens bear, just to name a few examples.)

Another issue is a toggle. Toggles are bound to either fail or go off too often when you are either lagging/stunned/etc. Causing the cloak toggle to either be on when it should be off, or for it to be off when it should be on. With a skill as cloak is now on live that issue is not there. You press the cloak button and even if you lag you get stealthed, if you press that stealth button twice or three times you still get stealthed. A toggle does not work like that.

Another issue is magicka: This cloak change massively harms inexperienced magicka nightblades, as their primary resource will now be wasted on cloak instead of using it for combat. Causing them to have run out of mana before being able to engage an enemy.

Cloaking isn't just an ability, it is this entire class's identity which many players seemingly use in different ways. Cloaking isn't just for min-maxers in PvP, it is en entire playstyle and class's identity with multiple uses even in PvE. With the new cloak changes the cloak will become less accessible to many players.

Edit: The only issue I see with cloak is the ability to engage and re-stealth immediately, over and over again. Getting the powerful first hit from stealth is fine(including ganking/bombers), but being able to engage in combat and keep re-stealthing to re-engage that same target again and again with a heavy hitting powerful first strike over and over again is broken. As this makes a NB unkillable/untargetable. To me this is the only thing about stealth that needs fixing, the re-stealthing and restealthing over and over after a failed first strike.

Actually it means PvP will be far more inviting to new players because godlike NB's won't be one shotting them while invisible from 42 meters away so often.

spartaxoxo

Aurielle wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Darloc Brae is not cloak. This change to the skill does not make things easier. If it did, it would be easier for everyone who uses the skill, not the just Darloc Brae.

I don’t understand the logic here. ESO is a game where you use sets to your advantage. Why would you not use a set if it gives you an advantage? There are meta sets for every type of activity in the game, as well as sets that synergize well with particular skills. The cloak change absolutely makes PVE stealth gameplay easier when combined with appropriate sets, as you don’t even have to remember to recast cloak anymore.

It’s really frustrating when people double down on their viewpoints when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoints.

I can already stealth easily for a long time without having to wear a set that is bad at everything else except empowering a single, niche skill (in PvE, I'm well aware it's more versatile in PvP).

The skill being balanced differently takes away a significant amount of build variety with no significant gain, and requires two skills to do what I can do right now with one.

That's why it's important to note that Darloc Brae is NOT cloak. Darloc Brae is a nice thing to note and I certainly will keep it in mind, but it is not the same thing as cloak.

Bucky_13

Sarannah wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: The current stealth change will make it even more unlikely for PvE players to ever enter PvP zones, as they would often use stealth to complete their goals(event tickets/quests/endeavours/etc). Including me!

Why though, @Sarannah ? Here’s a build someone posted showing how you can permacloak around PVE mobs without getting detected and not having to worry about the magicka drain (so this will work in IC and Cyrodiil as well):

https://youtu.be/DXQX7XKqKdM

And here’s me literally not even having to engage with PVE mobs to finish a quest in IC on a gank build with zero magicka sustain. (The first few seconds of the video are there to show what the magicka drain is like when you’re not using Darloc Brae).

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

If anything, this change makes it easier for PVE players to do PVP quests during events.

Though you are right that may be possible now... it will only actually still get less players to go to PvP areas and stick with PvP eventually. Because having to build around stealth means these players will die even faster to another player than they otherwise would in regular gear, making PvP an even worse experience for them. Making it less likely for them to stick around in PvP for fun after events, as they are even less likely to put up a fight. So this cloak change may actually cause fewer players to stick with PvP because they could have ended up enjoying PvP instead.
Not to mention, players dabbling in PvP just for the rewards(event tickets/endeavours/etc) do NOT want to build an entire build just to do that. Especially if that said build gets changed/altered/nerfed every few months. It's just not worth the effort. Only for min-maxers and PvP die-hards this change will be worth the effort.

Darloc Brae have been the best set for permacloak builds for years, often paired with Nights Silence if you're not a vampire. I play mainly stamblades and it's been a staple of my sneak builds since Elsweyr came out. These 2 sets will not change for that kind of gameplay. For vampire 2nd set is whatever you want, and still is. Using cost reduction glyphs is the big change that will make a big difference. Infused will obviously help as well, but isn't a must. The banner will help but isn't necessary either as long as you have a decent health recovery, use some cost reduction set or enchant and use Siphoning Attacks.
And I use my solo PvE sneak build when I do IC dailies. Same skills and this shouldn't really change that much either.

There are other ways ZOS could have fixed cloak: Not allowing recloaking within 30 seconds of the previous cloak when in combat, changing magelight to make ganking harder, have cloak be altered only in PvP, place a one minute cooldown on cloak when in combat with another player, etc. The current cloak change as is shown on the PTS is a massive change to a class's identity and should be reconsidered. (I'd also complain if they removed the arcanist's beam or the wardens bear, just to name a few examples.)

Putting Cloak on cooldown would be far worse, THAT would kill the class identity far more. I use cloak both offensively and defensively when I PvP and while I never permacloak in those situations, I do use it fairly often in my rotation.

Another issue is a toggle. Toggles are bound to either fail or go off too often when you are either lagging/stunned/etc. Causing the cloak toggle to either be on when it should be off, or for it to be off when it should be on. With a skill as cloak is now on live that issue is not there. You press the cloak button and even if you lag you get stealthed, if you press that stealth button twice or three times you still get stealthed. A toggle does not work like that.

Another issue is magicka: This cloak change massively harms inexperienced magicka nightblades, as their primary resource will now be wasted on cloak instead of using it for combat. Causing them to have run out of mana before being able to engage an enemy.

Cloaking isn't just an ability, it is this entire class's identity which many players seemingly use in different ways. Cloaking isn't just for min-maxers in PvP, it is en entire playstyle and class's identity with multiple uses even in PvE. With the new cloak changes the cloak will become less accessible to many players.

I was pretty upset when I saw the changes as well, but after playing around with it on PTS; I'm not that concerned anymore as most of the ways I use it haven't really changed that much. My sneak build will be more braindead than before. In PvP it remains to be seen, but since you can break the cloak quite easily (attack another player, dodge, heals that target other players) I don't see myself having to untoggle the cloak, I'm just gonna cancel it by casting another skill or by dodging.

As for running out of magicka, that's might be an issue for a short period, then people will learn. It will be easy to cancel the cloak by attacking an enemy. While I will miss the rhythm of casting cloak every 3 seconds, it does feel easier to use it overall on PTS compared to live even with a build that doesn't have mag cost reduction or bonus mag recovery. I did my testing on a Redguard Stamblade with 16-17k mag, so not a baseline that is ideal for using cloak.

Edit: The only issue I see with cloak is the ability to engage and re-stealth immediately, over and over again. Getting the powerful first hit from stealth is fine(including ganking/bombers), but being able to engage in combat and keep re-stealthing to re-engage that same target again and again with a heavy hitting powerful first strike over and over again is broken. As this makes a NB unkillable/untargetable. To me this is the only thing about stealth that needs fixing, the re-stealthing and restealthing over and over after a failed first strike.

NB's are not that unkillable in PvP, there are tons of ways to kill them even if they permacloak. AoE skills are extremely effective against us, and there's a reason why I hate fighting sorcs as streak is one of the best cloaking NB counters in the game. I tend to hunt down cloakers with my NB as well since it's pretty fun to play hide and kill with them. If anything, it might actually be more difficult for people to hunt cloakers with this change since NBs who don't have the cloak rotation nailed down are quite easy to spot between cloaks on live, since that's a skill issue. But if they have a proper sneak in U44 it will be easier for them to not do that mistake.

Runswithtrees

Why do we have to kill my nightblade i just geared up? Lol this bums me out

TechMaybeHic

LOL Someone will post how this won't be that bad with testing and info and it immediately gets followed up by hyperbolic meltdowns. I mist having more balance changes while reading these

deadpool3431

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

"Finally some decent nightblade balance after 10 years of being the spoiled child"
Every "nightblade one-trick pony chase me build forever" : HOW DARE YOU BALANCE THE GAME TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE FOR OTHER CLASS

That is not true, but I know you are joking.

NB was underdog class a couple of times and for the most part it had its ups & downs (like every class). For most of the time over those 10 years, class was not where it is now, moving from B to A and then to C tier and then B tier etc.

The biggest nerfs happened around Elsweyr. Only around Greymoor and after they were gradually receiving small buffs, till they got to A+ - S tier depending who you will ask.

Right now we see a shift and only class that will be left in S tier will be Sorc.

Cloakless Nightblades are still ridiculously powerful on Live. This won't affect the upper end of NB balance - it will only impact those that use Cloak as a crutch.

You can literally pick out any class skill that anyone is using effectively and call it a crutch. I could use adept rider set to gain speed and you'd call that a crutch as well. If I knew your playstyle I could pick and choose any set or skill you use to any semblance of "skill" and call it a crutch. It's a game, there are no "crutches". If it's in the game and you can use it to your advantage without exploiting an obvious bug, it is not a crutch.

deadpool3431

nihonseanb14_ESO wrote: »

So yet another skilled turned to trash to balance PVP which only small fraction of players participate in.

Seems about as reasonable and well thought out as everything else Zeni does.

They did this because skinnycheeks mentioned it on stream for pve players. This change is specifically for pve'ers.

Northwold

What's the problem? Sounds like a really good idea. Continuous invisibility simply isn't a fair mechanic in PvP.

opethmaniac

JustLovely wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: The current stealth change will make it even more unlikely for PvE players to ever enter PvP zones, as they would often use stealth to complete their goals(event tickets/quests/endeavours/etc). Including me!

Why though, @Sarannah ? Here’s a build someone posted showing how you can permacloak around PVE mobs without getting detected and not having to worry about the magicka drain (so this will work in IC and Cyrodiil as well):

https://youtu.be/DXQX7XKqKdM

And here’s me literally not even having to engage with PVE mobs to finish a quest in IC on a gank build with zero magicka sustain. (The first few seconds of the video are there to show what the magicka drain is like when you’re not using Darloc Brae).

https://youtu.be/OHiQLEl4i0Q

If anything, this change makes it easier for PVE players to do PVP quests during events.

Though you are right that may be possible now... it will only actually still get less players to go to PvP areas and stick with PvP eventually. Because having to build around stealth means these players will die even faster to another player than they otherwise would in regular gear, making PvP an even worse experience for them. Making it less likely for them to stick around in PvP for fun after events, as they are even less likely to put up a fight. So this cloak change may actually cause fewer players to stick with PvP because they could have ended up enjoying PvP instead.
Not to mention, players dabbling in PvP just for the rewards(event tickets/endeavours/etc) do NOT want to build an entire build just to do that. Especially if that said build gets changed/altered/nerfed every few months. It's just not worth the effort. Only for min-maxers and PvP die-hards this change will be worth the effort.

There are other ways ZOS could have fixed cloak: Not allowing recloaking within 30 seconds of the previous cloak when in combat, changing magelight to make ganking harder, have cloak be altered only in PvP, place a one minute cooldown on cloak when in combat with another player, etc. The current cloak change as is shown on the PTS is a massive change to a class's identity and should be reconsidered. (I'd also complain if they removed the arcanist's beam or the wardens bear, just to name a few examples.)

Another issue is a toggle. Toggles are bound to either fail or go off too often when you are either lagging/stunned/etc. Causing the cloak toggle to either be on when it should be off, or for it to be off when it should be on. With a skill as cloak is now on live that issue is not there. You press the cloak button and even if you lag you get stealthed, if you press that stealth button twice or three times you still get stealthed. A toggle does not work like that.

Another issue is magicka: This cloak change massively harms inexperienced magicka nightblades, as their primary resource will now be wasted on cloak instead of using it for combat. Causing them to have run out of mana before being able to engage an enemy.

Cloaking isn't just an ability, it is this entire class's identity which many players seemingly use in different ways. Cloaking isn't just for min-maxers in PvP, it is en entire playstyle and class's identity with multiple uses even in PvE. With the new cloak changes the cloak will become less accessible to many players.

Edit: The only issue I see with cloak is the ability to engage and re-stealth immediately, over and over again. Getting the powerful first hit from stealth is fine(including ganking/bombers), but being able to engage in combat and keep re-stealthing to re-engage that same target again and again with a heavy hitting powerful first strike over and over again is broken. As this makes a NB unkillable/untargetable. To me this is the only thing about stealth that needs fixing, the re-stealthing and restealthing over and over after a failed first strike.

Actually it means PvP will be far more inviting to new players because godlike NB's won't be one shotting them while invisible from 42 meters away so often.

What will change? You activate cloak for the crit and make your combo (which breaks stealth and also untoggles cloak). In the time your opponent tries to reach you over the 42m distance (if he is not already dead), you get back into invisiblity with normal crouch and can then activate cloak again for the next crit.

Eatmyface

Best change they have every made to the game. It would be better if it was getting a ramping cost like streak though.

One class shouldn't just have an automatic get out of jail free card whenever they need it, and every other class shouldn't need a specific skill or pot to counter that one class.

NyassaV

Maybe a skill that has been in game for 10 years isn't the problem and it's really just the proc sets they've recently added to the game making a gankers a bigger problem.

spartaxoxo

NyassaV wrote: »

Maybe a skill that has been in game for 10 years isn't the problem and it's really just the proc sets they've recently added to the game making a gankers a bigger problem.

And people have complained about how stealth works in this game this entire time.

Stealth has needed PvP changes for ages. But, that should have been addressed through Battle Spirit or for a different change that mostly targets it's use in PvP.

Stealth isn't a problem in PvE. And this change appears like it isn't good for PvP either because the toggle change makes it clunky and awkward to use.

NyassaV

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Maybe a skill that has been in game for 10 years isn't the problem and it's really just the proc sets they've recently added to the game making a gankers a bigger problem.

And people have complained about how stealth works in this game this entire time.

Stealth has needed PvP changes for ages. But, that should have been addressed through Battle Spirit or for a different change that mostly targets it's use in PvP.

Stealth isn't a problem in PvE. And this change appears like it isn't good for PvP either because the toggle change makes it clunky and awkward to use.

So maybe stealth has a whole needs a change? And not cloak itself. Personally I'm of the opinion that 3 second duration is too long and can easily be brought down to 2 or 1.5 without killing off the playstyle and making it more balanced.

spartaxoxo

NyassaV wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Maybe a skill that has been in game for 10 years isn't the problem and it's really just the proc sets they've recently added to the game making a gankers a bigger problem.

And people have complained about how stealth works in this game this entire time.

Stealth has needed PvP changes for ages. But, that should have been addressed through Battle Spirit or for a different change that mostly targets it's use in PvP.

Stealth isn't a problem in PvE. And this change appears like it isn't good for PvP either because the toggle change makes it clunky and awkward to use.

So maybe stealth has a whole needs a change? And not cloak itself. Personally I'm of the opinion that 3 second duration is too long and can easily be brought down to 2 or 1.5 without killing off the playstyle and making it more balanced.

It's mostly cloak that is the issue and it's the skill that needs the change.

Galeriano2

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

it will only impact those that use Cloak as a crutch.

So it will affect 99,99% of Nightbaldes (PvE & PvP) GJ ZOS

I also never understood this argument. Cloak as a crutch ? As if something that you stick to and it caries you ? Well.. it may have been true in the long long past, like 8 years ago or more, but the reality is that if the only line of defence of a NB is a cloak - then the NB is already dead. Relying just on invisibility in PvP is just a death sentence or suicide. No decent NB does that.

Kinda similar with Sorcs - They have Streak (and it could be said that Streak is a crutch), but then you have shields - another line of defence.

The issue is that what ZOS is doing is they are effectively taking one NB line of defence away. It is same as if they reduced Sorc shields by 50%.

Cloak is a crutch, and to deny that fact is ridiculous. Cloak is supposed to enable the "assassin" playstyle of nightblade in the first place, it's meant to help you do burst damage (hence why you get guaranteed crit). It's not a defensive skill the way you described it, and it's surely not meant to be used as a "last line of defense".
What kind of defensive skill gives you crit damage meant for burst? The reason it is defensive is because a lot of nightblades use it to hide away from enemies in most encounters, not to "assassinate" people like the archetype is meant for.

The fact that the skill gives you a lot more utility beyond just the offensive capability and people spam it to run from encounters is evident that players crutch on it.

Prior to hybridization NB's had to use a combo of cloak and shadow image to re-position themselves, but hybridization allowed for such easy sustain that NB no longer needs shadow image for mobility, they can just spam cloak. This is only a recent phenomenon that is a consequence of hybridization, and NB's do crutch on it now.

Maybe it was over nerfed but it needed a change nonetheless.

Is streak an offensive or defensive tool ? It deals dmg. It stuns the target. It is a perfect setup for burst. So applying same logic means that streak is not intended to be used defensively...

...And yet sorcs use this skill defensively, whenever the odds turns against them, they turn around & teleport 3 miles away.

Same as cloak - it is both offensive & defensive tool. It is not a crutch. Proc sets like Tarnished Nightmare or Dark Convergence are crouch carry sets. Cloak is not.

Streak is both. The base morph is literally called "bolt escape", if you don't know. Bolt escape at it's core is a gap creation skill, it has no damage, purely meant to create distance from enemies. The streak morph is meant to be make it both offensive and defensive and the other morph "ball of lightning" is fully defensive.

Cloak on the other hand is not both offensive, it's purely offensive. Dark cloak is the defensive morph.
It's not even the same argument, there's clearly an offensive and defensive morph and cloak players clutch on it to be able to get free defensive help by being able to run away from people.

The intentions behind these skills are not even the same so comparing them makes no sense.

I am not sure if you are "conveniently" forgetting about it or perhaps you don't know or don't remember it, but cloak used to have 2 morphs - one offensive & one defensive. But because of NB toolkit actually kinda um... was "lacking tools" (mainly a self heal), in order to give mag builds a decent heal so they would not have to rely on Vigor or having resto staff equipped, they completely sacrificed one of the cloak morphs & converted it to a heal. Btw. Did you not ever found that weird & out of place that one cloak morph is not a cloak at all ? Cuz it is a leftover from the past balance changes. And what happened later is that the only invisibility morph left (Shadowy Disguise) was both offensive & defensive as it combined a bit of both. I mean it had dot suppression for a while cuz zos did not knew how to code it properly as eveything (even dots) were removing cloak. Right now, as I have mentioned it combines both offensive & defensive stuff. Even something like more crit chance can be used as defensive tool for healing & healing over time. And cloak still protects from single target direct damage. If things won't lag out you can often see "miss" over your character if some one is attacking you with direct damage ranged attacks. In many "we want cloak gone from the game" threds, people were even mentioning that cloak is a good dmg mitigation tool because of that.

It is both offensive & defensive tool as it always was for 10 years. You just need to play as nb at least once to know that. Saying that it is a crutch & assuming things based on skill description & taking your knowledge only from reading skill description is just wrong as it justs spreads misinformation.

I think You're the one who have forgotten few things. ZoS didn't change one of the cloak morphs into a heal "in order to give mag builds a decent heal so they would not have to rely on Vigor or having resto staff equipped". They did it because they wanted to make every class a viable for DD, tank and healer role in PvE and in their minds tanks needs atleast 1 health scaling defensive ability which nightblade at that point was missing. It's no coinsidence dark cloak has health scaling. It's also not a coincidence that when ZoS decided to give nightblade that class heal they choose one of the cloak morphs. They did it because at that point they were still faithfull to the mantra that nightblade needs internal drawback to offset acces to invisibility and that drawback was lack of a spammable burstheals. So when they gave heal like that to nightblade they've made sure class couldn't use in in combination with cloak. That rule was later broken by adding healthy offering in its current state which pretty much started new era of issues with nightblade that last up to this day. Since You brought up a streak example than don't forget this ability always had its internal drawback in a form of ramping cost. Zos added DoT supression to cloak because previous iterration which had DoT cleansing was too strong against many setups. But single target DoT supression turned out to also be too strong so they changed it even further.

No matter what was applied by cloak morphs the ability to turn invisible at demand always had both offensive and fefensive nature.

Sarannah

Others have called cloak in this thread a "crutch", but I feel it isn't. I think cloak is being abused to constantly get the massive first strike damage over and over again during the SAME fight. Which isn't a cloaking issue, but a recloaking during combat issue. Yet to many players this feels like a cloaking issue, which ZOS is now wrongly targetting in my opinion.
Having the first massive damage strike from the shadows fail is one thing, but being able to do this first strike massive damage strike over and over in one single fight is abusing the stealth mechanic. Which isn't due to cloak, but due to all the damage bonusses gained when leaving stealth and the re-cloaking during a same fight being possible again and again.

Recloaking during the same fight to get the massive first strike damage again and again is the actual issue, cloak isn't. Cloak is wrongly targeted because of this.

Maybe put a 30 second cooldown on "when leaving stealth/cloak" damage bonusses.