Patchnodes the real pvp - why killing cloak ?

CameraBeardThePirate

Urvoth wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

Just like what happened with Stalking Blastbones, just like what happened with Jabs

Except the core functionality of cloak hasn't changed - you still turn invisible, it's just much harder to use effectively now.

Overnerfed? Maybe, but high time cloak was changed.

Asdara

"Finally some decent nightblade balance after 10 years of being the spoiled child"
Every "nightblade one-trick pony chase me build forever" : HOW DARE YOU BALANCE THE GAME TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE FOR OTHER CLASS

kringled_1

If it goes live as expected, I'll try it, but I probably won't be able to adapt what I do.
Like fred4, I run a high sustain (sustain glyphs and one sustain set, and there aren't many sustain sets that work out of combat) to maintain high cloak uptime, primarily to do mostly PvE in IC.
Cloak lets me skip a lot of trash mobs that are frankly boring to engage, and it lets me keep distance from most enemy players. I've done IC dailies/bosses on other characters and it was so much slower that I won't go back.
Vampire is not an option I'll take due to appearance.
I'm in IC mostly because just the taste of PvP keeps things more interesting for boss fights. The thing is, IC is now about 90% of my combat time, so without that, I may just uninstall and end ESO+ because everything else I did in the game has come to an end.

Tommy_The_Gun

Asdara wrote: »

"Finally some decent nightblade balance after 10 years of being the spoiled child"
Every "nightblade one-trick pony chase me build forever" : HOW DARE YOU BALANCE THE GAME TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE FOR OTHER CLASS

That is not true, but I know you are joking.

NB was underdog class a couple of times and for the most part it had its ups & downs (like every class). For most of the time over those 10 years, class was not where it is now, moving from B to A and then to C tier and then B tier etc.

The biggest nerfs happened around Elsweyr. Only around Greymoor and after they were gradually receiving small buffs, till they got to A+ - S tier depending who you will ask.

Right now we see a shift and only class that will be left in S tier will be Sorc.

fizzylu

@kringled_1
I use some of the more simple skins to help my vampire Khajiit sorcerer remain fabulous.

CameraBeardThePirate

kringled_1 wrote: »

If it goes live as expected, I'll try it, but I probably won't be able to adapt what I do.
Like fred4, I run a high sustain (sustain glyphs and one sustain set, and there aren't many sustain sets that work out of combat) to maintain high cloak uptime, primarily to do mostly PvE in IC.
Cloak lets me skip a lot of trash mobs that are frankly boring to engage, and it lets me keep distance from most enemy players. I've done IC dailies/bosses on other characters and it was so much slower that I won't go back.
Vampire is not an option I'll take due to appearance.
I'm in IC mostly because just the taste of PvP keeps things more interesting for boss fights. The thing is, IC is now about 90% of my combat time, so without that, I may just uninstall and end ESO+ because everything else I did in the game has come to an end.

Pick up Vamp Stage 4 and lean on that more than Cloak. Combine it with the Refreshing Stride CP star - while sprinting and invis with vamp 4, you'll have crazy high mag regen. You can then lean on cloak when you need to position more precisely than sprint allows.

CameraBeardThePirate

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

"Finally some decent nightblade balance after 10 years of being the spoiled child"
Every "nightblade one-trick pony chase me build forever" : HOW DARE YOU BALANCE THE GAME TO MAKE IT ENJOYABLE FOR OTHER CLASS

That is not true, but I know you are joking.

NB was underdog class a couple of times and for the most part it had its ups & downs (like every class). For most of the time over those 10 years, class was not where it is now, moving from B to A and then to C tier and then B tier etc.

The biggest nerfs happened around Elsweyr. Only around Greymoor and after they were gradually receiving small buffs, till they got to A+ - S tier depending who you will ask.

Right now we see a shift and only class that will be left in S tier will be Sorc.

Cloakless Nightblades are still ridiculously powerful on Live. This won't affect the upper end of NB balance - it will only impact those that use Cloak as a crutch.

Vaqual

Seems ok to me. You get pulled out after 1s and you didn't pay for the full 3. The disabled regeneration is costing you only if you miss the tick. I am not convinced this will hurt aggressive cloak spammers all that much, but the pesky keep kiters and bombers are going to have a worse time with this.
I like the quality of live aspect of it.
I would rate this a 7/10.

RaikaNA

@ZOS_Kevin Please tell the developers to undo this mess! Or just delete the Nightblade class altogether.

StarOfElyon

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dark cloak users rn:

Yeah glad I never used invis cloak. I'd probably be mad.

StarOfElyon

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dark cloak users rn:

The cooler morph.

True brawler blades.

ZeroAxis

As a nightblade main, I’m honestly ok with this for the most part. Likely needs some tweaking but that’ll get sorted out. I think it was a little too easy to stay out of trouble in PvP, especially for packs hunting together which is insta death for most players.

Where it gets a little trickier is for the folks who are usually solo, but “life finds a way.” Just have to go back to a bit of brawling with a twist. Shade is a ton of fun to use.

Where the pain point really is rests with the PvE solo players who enjoy playing the class at a casual level.

I imagine the sorcs spamming eternal shields with sea serpent coil have got to be doing the snoopy dance right now.

Changes will keep coming. It’s how the game evolves.

Muizer

I don't see how this makes the skill more accessible. It makes cloaking easier in situations where it was already easy and it makes it harder in situations with lots of things going on. You know, situations where you might miss whether your skill has actually fired because of sensory overload or lag.

I would far prefer periodic re-casting, perhaps spending too much resources, but knowing for certain what state it puts me in than dispensing with the recasting but repeatedly finding myself in situations where I am in the opposite state of where I want to be, and at great expense too.

Finedaible

Nah, screw this nonsense.

Dev Note from the patch notes:

"In this pass we're looking at the opportunity costs of Shadow Cloak and trying to create a more accessible skill for any Nightblade build, while simultaneously ensuring there are more stark costs associated with maintaining invisibility. The toggled nature should make the activation of Shadow Cloak feel significantly smoother to weave in and out of the shadows, while the disabling of Magicka Recovery should stomp out the ability to perpetually remain undetected without serious investment and attention. In addition to this, we're adding a small benefit for activating the skill in PvE situations, where the invisibility often outright doesn't work or incurs a heavy DPS loss. The goal with Born from Shadow is not to outright carry damage from the get go and make Shadow Cloak feel mandatory to juggle, but rather give us a framework to build off of in future updates by allowing us to easier track when Nightblades utilize the sneaky parts of their toolkit, so we can hopefully make a more self-synergistic toolkit that feeds off itself with neat interactions. We haven't finalized some of those details, so we'll keep hush hush until we're ready to divulge more information on that."

They really expect NB to use cloak for PvE settings with a half-baked version while nerfing its core use in PvP? Disabling Magicka recovery may as well be a death sentence, and that is only there because someone randomly decided to make cloak a toggle. If they have a bigger picture in mind I think they ought to share it now instead of leaving players hanging indefinitely. With their pace this will not get changed into something useful until at best Q3 of 2025. It sounds like change for the sake of change, pushed out the gate with excuses for poor execution.

kringled_1

fizzylu wrote: »

@kringled_1
I use some of the more simple skins to help my vampire Khajiit sorcerer remain fabulous.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

If it goes live as expected, I'll try it, but I probably won't be able to adapt what I do.
Like fred4, I run a high sustain (sustain glyphs and one sustain set, and there aren't many sustain sets that work out of combat) to maintain high cloak uptime, primarily to do mostly PvE in IC.
Cloak lets me skip a lot of trash mobs that are frankly boring to engage, and it lets me keep distance from most enemy players. I've done IC dailies/bosses on other characters and it was so much slower that I won't go back.
Vampire is not an option I'll take due to appearance.
I'm in IC mostly because just the taste of PvP keeps things more interesting for boss fights. The thing is, IC is now about 90% of my combat time, so without that, I may just uninstall and end ESO+ because everything else I did in the game has come to an end.

Pick up Vamp Stage 4 and lean on that more than Cloak. Combine it with the Refreshing Stride CP star - while sprinting and invis with vamp 4, you'll have crazy high mag regen. You can then lean on cloak when you need to position more precisely than sprint allows.

I appreciate the suggestions, and maybe I'll play with it, but I wasnt able to find a skin that covered vampire well enough on an orc to keep me content, so that char was vamp from somewhere after Blackwood launched until they changed mistform in pve (I was tanking vRG and mistform was almost the expectation), and cured it as soon as possible after that. My NB here is a Breton which shows the vampire pretty significantly, and I'm maybe irrationally attached to my characters facial appearances.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

StarOfElyon wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dark cloak users rn:

The cooler morph.

True brawler blades.

I prefer to call Nightblades who brawl Knightblades.

Vulkunne

ZOS,

The cost for this is too high for Stamblades. Please consider lowering the cost in a noticeable way so Stamblades can still use Cloak. I can see good & bad from using a toggle but one thing that sticks in my mind is this will effectively lock Stamblades out of using Cloak for much of the time which will make Cloak an unenjoyable and unfeasible skills to use especially in PvP.

*Please reduce the cost*

Edit:

After trying this on PTS I'm cool with how it works, which really, I could make it work either way, but I still think this is really expensive especially for a Stam Blade. It will most def cut down on how often the cloak can be used in PvP which I personally don't think that's fair considering how easy it is to break the cloak anyways. I'm also not entirely sure I follow what you guys are going on about with this 'Born from the Shadow' thing. I mean, NB DPS doesn't typically use the cloak in PvE and adding a more stable yet also more expensive cloak but then try and tie a little extra dmg to it... for PvE damage purposes? just doesn't make much sense to me. Note when I say PvE damage I'm talking about things like Trials and such, not questing.

LesserCircle

ZOS nightblade is dead already, no need to do this.

Tommy_The_Gun

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

it will only impact those that use Cloak as a crutch.

So it will affect 99,99% of Nightbaldes (PvE & PvP) GJ ZOS

I also never understood this argument. Cloak as a crutch ? As if something that you stick to and it caries you ? Well.. it may have been true in the long long past, like 8 years ago or more, but the reality is that if the only line of defence of a NB is a cloak - then the NB is already dead. Relying just on invisibility in PvP is just a death sentence or suicide. No decent NB does that.

Kinda similar with Sorcs - They have Streak (and it could be said that Streak is a crutch), but then you have shields - another line of defence.

The issue is that what ZOS is doing is they are effectively taking one NB line of defence away. It is same as if they reduced Sorc shields by 50%.

Vulkunne wrote: »

*Please reduce the cost*

Yep. Stamina NB is screwed if it goes live like this. I have tested it and the cost is more or less 50% increased. Mag was dominating since hybridization, but now, with this cost, cloak will be so short that it will be even impossible to use it in PvE & sneak past enemies - something that stam NB was always able to do. Vamp & Invisibility pots literally will flat out outperform cloak, especially on a stam NB.

Meanwhile, all of the detection skills, pots, sets, are tuned to work on current live version of cloak and I don't see any nerfs to those. I mean, detection potions still have like 40 or 45 meter range, or Magelight is 12 meters . How on earth are you gonna move away fast from that & still have full mag bar in order to get away ? You just don't lol.

Duke_Falcon

That's probably a buff to good Nightblades, a Nerf to the ones that just set in cloak for ever.

xDeusEJRx

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

it will only impact those that use Cloak as a crutch.

So it will affect 99,99% of Nightbaldes (PvE & PvP) GJ ZOS

I also never understood this argument. Cloak as a crutch ? As if something that you stick to and it caries you ? Well.. it may have been true in the long long past, like 8 years ago or more, but the reality is that if the only line of defence of a NB is a cloak - then the NB is already dead. Relying just on invisibility in PvP is just a death sentence or suicide. No decent NB does that.

Kinda similar with Sorcs - They have Streak (and it could be said that Streak is a crutch), but then you have shields - another line of defence.

The issue is that what ZOS is doing is they are effectively taking one NB line of defence away. It is same as if they reduced Sorc shields by 50%.

Cloak is a crutch, and to deny that fact is ridiculous. Cloak is supposed to enable the "assassin" playstyle of nightblade in the first place, it's meant to help you do burst damage (hence why you get guaranteed crit). It's not a defensive skill the way you described it, and it's surely not meant to be used as a "last line of defense".
What kind of defensive skill gives you crit damage meant for burst? The reason it is defensive is because a lot of nightblades use it to hide away from enemies in most encounters, not to "assassinate" people like the archetype is meant for.

The fact that the skill gives you a lot more utility beyond just the offensive capability and people spam it to run from encounters is evident that players crutch on it.

Prior to hybridization NB's had to use a combo of cloak and shadow image to re-position themselves, but hybridization allowed for such easy sustain that NB no longer needs shadow image for mobility, they can just spam cloak. This is only a recent phenomenon that is a consequence of hybridization, and NB's do crutch on it now.

Maybe it was over nerfed but it needed a change nonetheless.

Unfadingsilence

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

What the heeeeeel is that looool. Completely killed the skill for pvp.

Cloak has not worked for 8+ years and tbh it's not really a nerf the last nerf cloak got was when they removed the purge from it

Tommy_The_Gun

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

it will only impact those that use Cloak as a crutch.

So it will affect 99,99% of Nightbaldes (PvE & PvP) GJ ZOS

I also never understood this argument. Cloak as a crutch ? As if something that you stick to and it caries you ? Well.. it may have been true in the long long past, like 8 years ago or more, but the reality is that if the only line of defence of a NB is a cloak - then the NB is already dead. Relying just on invisibility in PvP is just a death sentence or suicide. No decent NB does that.

Kinda similar with Sorcs - They have Streak (and it could be said that Streak is a crutch), but then you have shields - another line of defence.

The issue is that what ZOS is doing is they are effectively taking one NB line of defence away. It is same as if they reduced Sorc shields by 50%.

Cloak is a crutch, and to deny that fact is ridiculous. Cloak is supposed to enable the "assassin" playstyle of nightblade in the first place, it's meant to help you do burst damage (hence why you get guaranteed crit). It's not a defensive skill the way you described it, and it's surely not meant to be used as a "last line of defense".
What kind of defensive skill gives you crit damage meant for burst? The reason it is defensive is because a lot of nightblades use it to hide away from enemies in most encounters, not to "assassinate" people like the archetype is meant for.

The fact that the skill gives you a lot more utility beyond just the offensive capability and people spam it to run from encounters is evident that players crutch on it.

Prior to hybridization NB's had to use a combo of cloak and shadow image to re-position themselves, but hybridization allowed for such easy sustain that NB no longer needs shadow image for mobility, they can just spam cloak. This is only a recent phenomenon that is a consequence of hybridization, and NB's do crutch on it now.

Maybe it was over nerfed but it needed a change nonetheless.

Is streak an offensive or defensive tool ? It deals dmg. It stuns the target. It is a perfect setup for burst. So applying same logic means that streak is not intended to be used defensively...

...And yet sorcs use this skill defensively, whenever the odds turns against them, they turn around & teleport 3 miles away.

Same as cloak - it is both offensive & defensive tool. It is not a crutch. Proc sets like Tarnished Nightmare or Dark Convergence are crouch carry sets. Cloak is not.

silky_soft

Seems like this will be super fun at 250ms.
I vote straight up exchange this for streak type skill but you fear targets you move through.

xDeusEJRx

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

it will only impact those that use Cloak as a crutch.

So it will affect 99,99% of Nightbaldes (PvE & PvP) GJ ZOS

I also never understood this argument. Cloak as a crutch ? As if something that you stick to and it caries you ? Well.. it may have been true in the long long past, like 8 years ago or more, but the reality is that if the only line of defence of a NB is a cloak - then the NB is already dead. Relying just on invisibility in PvP is just a death sentence or suicide. No decent NB does that.

Kinda similar with Sorcs - They have Streak (and it could be said that Streak is a crutch), but then you have shields - another line of defence.

The issue is that what ZOS is doing is they are effectively taking one NB line of defence away. It is same as if they reduced Sorc shields by 50%.

Cloak is a crutch, and to deny that fact is ridiculous. Cloak is supposed to enable the "assassin" playstyle of nightblade in the first place, it's meant to help you do burst damage (hence why you get guaranteed crit). It's not a defensive skill the way you described it, and it's surely not meant to be used as a "last line of defense".
What kind of defensive skill gives you crit damage meant for burst? The reason it is defensive is because a lot of nightblades use it to hide away from enemies in most encounters, not to "assassinate" people like the archetype is meant for.

The fact that the skill gives you a lot more utility beyond just the offensive capability and people spam it to run from encounters is evident that players crutch on it.

Prior to hybridization NB's had to use a combo of cloak and shadow image to re-position themselves, but hybridization allowed for such easy sustain that NB no longer needs shadow image for mobility, they can just spam cloak. This is only a recent phenomenon that is a consequence of hybridization, and NB's do crutch on it now.

Maybe it was over nerfed but it needed a change nonetheless.

Is streak an offensive or defensive tool ? It deals dmg. It stuns the target. It is a perfect setup for burst. So applying same logic means that streak is not intended to be used defensively...

...And yet sorcs use this skill defensively, whenever the odds turns against them, they turn around & teleport 3 miles away.

Same as cloak - it is both offensive & defensive tool. It is not a crutch. Proc sets like Tarnished Nightmare or Dark Convergence are crouch carry sets. Cloak is not.

Streak is both. The base morph is literally called "bolt escape", if you don't know. Bolt escape at it's core is a gap creation skill, it has no damage, purely meant to create distance from enemies. The streak morph is meant to be make it both offensive and defensive and the other morph "ball of lightning" is fully defensive.

Cloak on the other hand is not both offensive, it's purely offensive. Dark cloak is the defensive morph.
It's not even the same argument, there's clearly an offensive and defensive morph and cloak players clutch on it to be able to get free defensive help by being able to run away from people.

The intentions behind these skills are not even the same so comparing them makes no sense.

nihonseanb14_ESO

So yet another skilled turned to trash to balance PVP which only small fraction of players participate in.

Seems about as reasonable and well thought out as everything else Zeni does.

moderatelyfatman

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dark cloak users rn:

The cooler morph.

True brawler blades.

I prefer to call Nightblades who brawl Knightblades.

Knightblades have my respect.

Urvoth

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

Just like what happened with Stalking Blastbones, just like what happened with Jabs

Except the core functionality of cloak hasn't changed - you still turn invisible, it's just much harder to use effectively now.

Overnerfed? Maybe, but high time cloak was changed.

Yeah, Cloak definitely deserved the change. Stalking and jabs not so much.

sayswhoto

Aside from gankers, I don't think this would affect NB that much. A lot of times cloak was a weave skill, either defensively as part of dodge roll, block and cloak, or offensively to go into cloak for a brief moment to guarantee the critical on incap (and to hide the spinning animation). It also doesn't change the fact that a detect pot is still strong against NB.

It will however make escaping 5-10 people chasing you in Cyrodiil more difficult. That's when you would really like a bit more cloak uptime.

katanagirl1

My PvE stamblade thief is completely ruined now.

EDIT: clarification