Patchnodes the real pvp - why killing cloak ?

MISTFORMBZZZ · September 16

What the heeeeeel is that looool. Completely killed the skill for pvp.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 16

Look like a nerf to me. I am not sure however if it is a big or small nerf. It all depends on mag cost every 2 seconds vs manually casting it every 2.9 seconds. The description is enigmatic, as they mention base cost to go down. But losing mag recovery is huge deal.

Also... I kinda like it how it is now as you need to "play a rhythm game" and cast the skill every 2.9 seconds and the better your coordination is, the longer you can stay out of sight. It kinda brings certain "skill" to it. If it will be a toggle... I am not sure. Less buttons to press, easier to bomb & do other combos... but it will be still very awkward to use imho. Many skills you cast interrupt it, not to mention other detection stuff.

The PvE part is also weird & will be again awkward to do. NB DPS will have to become invisible every 10 seconds for split seconds for the dmg buff...

They also mention something in the dev comments that they plan to build something around this weird buff in the future, so I am kinda worried.

Anyway, it is too early to say for sure if the skill is dead or just nerfed. It will require some testing & PTS is still offline.

Stafford197 · September 16

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

sunsrest · September 16

we'll see how it plays in the game, I think I like this change for my nerfed PvE overland/public dungeon build... I can focus on the pathing around enemies before running out of magicka without constantly counting the seconds and re-casting

endorphinsplox · September 16

You're kidding. My god. A 10 year legacy destroyed. Cloak was fine why did we need this?

React · September 16

About time they nerfed cloak. God bless.

valenwood_vegan · September 16

endorphinsplox wrote: »

You're kidding. My god. A 10 year legacy destroyed. Cloak was fine why did we need this?

Ten years and we're still in beta.

xDeusEJRx · September 16

Dark cloak users rn:

Aurielle · September 16

Stafford197 wrote: »

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

People who don't main NBs (and even people who DO main NBs) have been asking for sustain-related changes to Cloak for many years. It has been far too easy for NBs to maintain invisibility indefinitely for far too long. Most NBs barely invest into sustain these days because they simply don't have to; they can build for pure damage and spam Cloak when needed without needing to worry about the magicka costs. It's one of the main reasons why NBs have enjoyed so much power in PVP for so long.

I can't think of any other MMO where it's this easy for one class to maintain constant invisibility in PVP environments. In fact, I can't think of any other MMO where constant invisibility while in combat is even possible. Invisibility is the most powerful defensive and offensive ability anyone can have in a game like this. Making permanent invisibility harder to sustain is a step in the right direction, and I'm glad the devs have finally acknowledged that it's too powerful in its live iteration. Lots of testing on the PTS will be needed to determine whether or not the magicka drain is too much or too little.

One way or another, it's good that NBs might actually have to (gasp!) face some sustain consequences if they want to be invisible all the time in PVP environments. Will be interesting to see how this PTS cycle goes.

Twohothardware · September 16

Looks like a good balance change with disabling Magicka recovery while sitting in Cloak.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 16

I am testing this right now on PTS and the nerf is actually pretty serious, with a potential to kill the class play-style in PvP & Solo PvE.

On live, even thought I have small mag recovery (650), I can sit around in cloak for around 18 - 20 seconds. All because cloak is a reactive skill. The better you time it, the longer you stay hidden.
On PTS, with same build I can sit around in cloak for around max 10 seconds. It is a passive skill. No player skill involved. Casting anything that costs magicka will also reduce the time (and you do cast things like RAT for example). So RIP.

More or less 50% nerf. Either base cost per second has to go significantly down or skill is useless & it will be better (or mandatory) for every NB to also be Vamp.

Cost per second is affected by stuff that reduces skill cost, but you will need a lot of investment in that.

So, I would say that while (if it will go live exactly like this) it will make class very niche in PvP & (paradoxically inaccessible - the opposite of the goal), it will hit more solo PvE rather than PvP. The whole reason why some one would pick a NB for Solo play will be kinda gone lol.

Artim_X · September 16

So instead of getting the streak/roll dodge treatment, they went with the greymoor revamped mist treatment of being a toggle (pre vamp streak change).

Honestly. I think it's silly that they went with the hammer instead of the chisel. They could have at least seen how the playerbase would've responded to a cloak that was more difficult sustain wise to spam, while still functionally being the same.

Twohothardware · September 16

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am testing this right now on PTS and the nerf is actually pretty serious, with a potential to kill the class in PvP & Solo PvE.

On live, even thought I have small mag recovery (650), I can sit around in cloak for around 18 - 20 seconds.
On PTS, with same build I can sit around in cloak for around max 10 seconds.

More or less 50% nerf. Either base cost per second has to go down or skill is useless & it will be better (or mandatory) for every NB to also be Vamp.

Cost per second is affected by stuff that reduces skill cost, but you will need a lot of investment in that.

So, I would say that while (if it will go live exactly like this) it will make class very niche in PvP & (paradoxically inaccessible - the opposite of the goal), it will hit more solo PvE rather than PvP. The whole reason why some one would pick a NB for Solo play will be kinda gone lol.

It will just require players to build into more mag recovery and max Magicka as they should if you want permanent uptime on Cloak. Instead of stacking all your points into health you'll have to put some into Magicka.

xDeusEJRx · September 16

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am testing this right now on PTS and the nerf is actually pretty serious, with a potential to kill the class in PvP & Solo PvE.

On live, even thought I have small mag recovery (650), I can sit around in cloak for around 18 - 20 seconds. All because cloak is a reactive skill. The better you time it, the longer you stay hidden.
On PTS, with same build I can sit around in cloak for around max 10 seconds. It is a passive skill. No player skill involved. Casting anything that costs magicka will also reduce the time (and you do cast things like RAT for example). So RIP.

More or less 50% nerf. Either base cost per second has to go down or skill is useless & it will be better (or mandatory) for every NB to also be Vamp.

Cost per second is affected by stuff that reduces skill cost, but you will need a lot of investment in that.

So, I would say that while (if it will go live exactly like this) it will make class very niche in PvP & (paradoxically inaccessible - the opposite of the goal), it will hit more solo PvE rather than PvP. The whole reason why some one would pick a NB for Solo play will be kinda gone lol.

The nerf is pretty serious but I doubt people will stop playing because of sustain nerf. With 10k incap and 15k,20k,30k bow potentials that's enough to keep people playing on the class. There's no way this class will be niche with that much damage potential, I highly doubt a NB would want to switch to say a Necromancer solely because of this nerf. It's not that nearly that bad.

I think the only likely change is proc gankers will just flee in 90% of encounters if their gank fails instead of waiting for cooldown to end.

Tommy_The_Gun · September 16

Twohothardware wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am testing this right now on PTS and the nerf is actually pretty serious, with a potential to kill the class in PvP & Solo PvE.

On live, even thought I have small mag recovery (650), I can sit around in cloak for around 18 - 20 seconds.
On PTS, with same build I can sit around in cloak for around max 10 seconds.

More or less 50% nerf. Either base cost per second has to go down or skill is useless & it will be better (or mandatory) for every NB to also be Vamp.

Cost per second is affected by stuff that reduces skill cost, but you will need a lot of investment in that.

So, I would say that while (if it will go live exactly like this) it will make class very niche in PvP & (paradoxically inaccessible - the opposite of the goal), it will hit more solo PvE rather than PvP. The whole reason why some one would pick a NB for Solo play will be kinda gone lol.

It will just require players to build into more mag recovery and max Magicka as they should if you want permanent uptime on Cloak. Instead of stacking all your points into health you'll have to put some into Magicka.

Mag recovery is disabled when cloak is active, so it is useless, and mag NB already put most of their points into mag. I think that the the biggest looser here are solo pve stam NBs. They got nerfed for nothing lol.

ApoAlaia · September 16

Does also disable the proc of Darloc Brae?

Will be a couple of weeks until they copy EU chars...

Twohothardware · September 16

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I am testing this right now on PTS and the nerf is actually pretty serious, with a potential to kill the class in PvP & Solo PvE.

On live, even thought I have small mag recovery (650), I can sit around in cloak for around 18 - 20 seconds.
On PTS, with same build I can sit around in cloak for around max 10 seconds.

More or less 50% nerf. Either base cost per second has to go down or skill is useless & it will be better (or mandatory) for every NB to also be Vamp.

Cost per second is affected by stuff that reduces skill cost, but you will need a lot of investment in that.

So, I would say that while (if it will go live exactly like this) it will make class very niche in PvP & (paradoxically inaccessible - the opposite of the goal), it will hit more solo PvE rather than PvP. The whole reason why some one would pick a NB for Solo play will be kinda gone lol.

It will just require players to build into more mag recovery and max Magicka as they should if you want permanent uptime on Cloak. Instead of stacking all your points into health you'll have to put some into Magicka.

Mag recovery is disabled when cloak is active, so it is useless.

You cloak to get away and then crouch to remain stealthed. Mag recovery ins't disabled when crouched. If you can't get away while invisible for 10 seconds you shouldn't be getting away.

TechMaybeHic · September 16

Feel this means more clever usage of shadow image. I want to test it though. Part of me likes for an elusive brawler more than a ganker but I am sure most NBs are not going to like this

Stafford197 · September 16

Aurielle wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

People who don't main NBs (and even people who DO main NBs) have been asking for sustain-related changes to Cloak for many years. It has been far too easy for NBs to maintain invisibility indefinitely for far too long. Most NBs barely invest into sustain these days because they simply don't have to; they can build for pure damage and spam Cloak when needed without needing to worry about the magicka costs. It's one of the main reasons why NBs have enjoyed so much power in PVP for so long.

I can't think of any other MMO where it's this easy for one class to maintain constant invisibility in PVP environments. In fact, I can't think of any other MMO where constant invisibility while in combat is even possible. Invisibility is the most powerful defensive and offensive ability anyone can have in a game like this. Making permanent invisibility harder to sustain is a step in the right direction, and I'm glad the devs have finally acknowledged that it's too powerful in its live iteration. Lots of testing on the PTS will be needed to determine whether or not the magicka drain is too much or too little.

One way or another, it's good that NBs might actually have to (gasp!) face some sustain consequences if they want to be invisible all the time in PVP environments. Will be interesting to see how this PTS cycle goes.

Then how about giving Cloak a stacking cost while Battle Spirit is active - doesn’t that solve the problem?
Cloak is now changing for the entire game just because there are some OP Stamblades in PvP.

I’m totally against the idea of changing core functionality for class defining skills. This game is over a decade old. Do not change Templar spear, do not remove DK reflect, do not change NB cloak into a toggle, and since it may be the next target please do not change Sorc streak either.

Add new sets or better yet new third morphs to change functionality. Stop messing with class defining skills in such a drastic way.

Aurielle · September 16

Stafford197 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

People who don't main NBs (and even people who DO main NBs) have been asking for sustain-related changes to Cloak for many years. It has been far too easy for NBs to maintain invisibility indefinitely for far too long. Most NBs barely invest into sustain these days because they simply don't have to; they can build for pure damage and spam Cloak when needed without needing to worry about the magicka costs. It's one of the main reasons why NBs have enjoyed so much power in PVP for so long.

I can't think of any other MMO where it's this easy for one class to maintain constant invisibility in PVP environments. In fact, I can't think of any other MMO where constant invisibility while in combat is even possible. Invisibility is the most powerful defensive and offensive ability anyone can have in a game like this. Making permanent invisibility harder to sustain is a step in the right direction, and I'm glad the devs have finally acknowledged that it's too powerful in its live iteration. Lots of testing on the PTS will be needed to determine whether or not the magicka drain is too much or too little.

One way or another, it's good that NBs might actually have to (gasp!) face some sustain consequences if they want to be invisible all the time in PVP environments. Will be interesting to see how this PTS cycle goes.

Then how about giving Cloak a stacking cost while Battle Spirit is active - doesn’t that solve the problem?
Cloak is now changing for the entire game just because there are some OP Stamblades in PvP.

I’m totally against the idea of changing core functionality for class defining skills. This game is over a decade old. Do not change Templar spear, do not remove DK reflect, do not change NB cloak into a toggle, and since it may be the next target please do not change Sorc streak either.

Add new sets or better yet new third morphs to change functionality. Stop messing with class defining skills in such a drastic way.

I would be totally fine with adding a stacking cost while Battle Spirit is active. We've actually been asking for that over the years, and it was met with a lot of pushback from PVP NBs. Devs ultimately took a different approach. *shrug* I think ramping costs in PVP areas would be better for everyone, but at the end of the day, I'm glad the devs are at least looking at it. These proposed changes might not even make it out of the PTS, so we'll see.

MISTFORMBZZZ · September 16

Stafford197 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

People who don't main NBs (and even people who DO main NBs) have been asking for sustain-related changes to Cloak for many years. It has been far too easy for NBs to maintain invisibility indefinitely for far too long. Most NBs barely invest into sustain these days because they simply don't have to; they can build for pure damage and spam Cloak when needed without needing to worry about the magicka costs. It's one of the main reasons why NBs have enjoyed so much power in PVP for so long.

I can't think of any other MMO where it's this easy for one class to maintain constant invisibility in PVP environments. In fact, I can't think of any other MMO where constant invisibility while in combat is even possible. Invisibility is the most powerful defensive and offensive ability anyone can have in a game like this. Making permanent invisibility harder to sustain is a step in the right direction, and I'm glad the devs have finally acknowledged that it's too powerful in its live iteration. Lots of testing on the PTS will be needed to determine whether or not the magicka drain is too much or too little.

One way or another, it's good that NBs might actually have to (gasp!) face some sustain consequences if they want to be invisible all the time in PVP environments. Will be interesting to see how this PTS cycle goes.

Then how about giving Cloak a stacking cost while Battle Spirit is active - doesn’t that solve the problem?
Cloak is now changing for the entire game just because there are some OP Stamblades in PvP.

I’m totally against the idea of changing core functionality for class defining skills. This game is over a decade old. Do not change Templar spear, do not remove DK reflect, do not change NB cloak into a toggle, and since it may be the next target please do not change Sorc streak either.

Add new sets or better yet new third morphs to change functionality. Stop messing with class defining skills in such a drastic way.

I agree with you 100%.

The change they are planning now is just crazy to much, its killing the class.

Melivar · September 16

We will have to see how this cycles out but as a NB Main I am not overly worried, it will likely get adjusted somewhat over the 5 week PTS. Hopefully this resolves some of the PVP hate and we can get some adjustments that will make a difference in PVE. Cloak being to strong has always held back other options.

Bucky_13 · September 16

I might be completely done with PvP if this change goes through. I can see it being a nice buff for group PvE, but they could've done this one on a bunch of other skills that are rarely used by NBs anyway. It also sucks for solo PvE. Having to time the cloak is one of the most fun things with playing NB.

Urvoth · September 16

Stafford197 wrote: »

It’s just weird. I don’t see that anyone asked for this…. If this toggled invisibility cloak was put on a different morph, it would be no problem.

NBs have played with their Cloak for 10 years and now it’s having a core functionality changed. This is the same as if Sorc Bolt Escape was changed into a typical targeted gap closer like Stampede.

IMO, core class functionality should not change. I hated it when DK wings lost their reflect and I’m not happy to see this happen to NBs now.

Just like what happened with Stalking Blastbones, just like what happened with Jabs

Tommy_The_Gun · September 16

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Does also disable the proc of Darloc Brae?

Will be a couple of weeks until they copy EU chars...

Actually, PTS cloak does not disable this set & it procs. It lasted 18 seconds with Darloc Brae procing & 10 seconds when not crouching. Everything that restores magicka seems to work. Only the mag recovery is down to 0. So you can use potions for example.

The issue is that you can also do this on Live server if you want to completely avoid PvP & only do PvE in Cyro or IC. You can actually make a sustain focus build that can be basically undetectable (almost), but you are very squishy with no DMG. With this change, something like this won't be possible. Thus I do think that vamp will be a better option for sneaky builds than NB next patch (assuming it will go live like that).

olsborg · September 16

I wouldnt mind a nerf for shadowy disguise, for reals, but this just completely killed it for pvp. Sad for nightblades out there.

ApoAlaia · September 16

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Does also disable the proc of Darloc Brae?

Will be a couple of weeks until they copy EU chars...

Actually, PTS cloak does not disable this set & it procs. It lasted 18 seconds with Darloc Brae procing & 10 seconds when not crouching. Everything that restores magicka seems to work. Only the mag recovery is down to 0. So you can use potions for example.

The issue is that you can also do this on Live server if you want to completely avoid PvP & only do PvE in Cyro or IC. You can actually make a sustain focus build that can be basically undetectable (almost), but you are very squishy with no DMG. With this change, something like this won't be possible. Thus I do think that vamp will be a better option for sneaky builds than NB next patch (assuming it will go live like that).

Yeah, I use cloak 'defensively' if you will, hence being fond of Darloc Brae.

Glad to hear that they haven't disable it (yet).

Tommy_The_Gun · September 16

Twohothardware wrote: »

You cloak to get away and then crouch to remain stealthed. Mag recovery ins't disabled when crouched. If you can't get away while invisible for 10 seconds you shouldn't be getting away.

The issue here is speed & detection. In order to get away, you need to invest a lot into speed (and most NB already do). On top of that, you need to cast some CC inutility skill (like RAT), so you would not be cc-ed and most of those do cost mag. So that is like 3 seconds taken away from 10 already. Going into crouch stealth takes additional 3 - 3.1 seconds. So assuming your timing is perfect and you have minimal lag, out of those 10 seconds of being invisible, there is only 4 seconds of actual "moving away" part, as in order not be be cough by detection skill you need to be far away from the enemy. In a realistic scenario, it will be very hard to pull off or maybe even impossible. I also doubt 4 seconds of running away will get you even outside of the detection potion range.

TX12001rwb17_ESO · September 16

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Dark cloak users rn:

The cooler morph.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 16

NBs in shambles because they'll actually have to think about how to cloak effectively vs just spamming it.

West93 · September 16

Cloak receives nothing of what they did to jabs damage