Armory assist should be allowed in Archive

Jordan_Black · September 13

Changing builds is a huge part of IA, it's so boring to try to tank your way through early arcs. Or else if you bring a dps build the squish starts to get real at medium arcs. And I mean, most importantly, you can tp to your house and back and if you do it fast enough your run is preserved. Or if you have two people, you just swap out one at a time and preserve your run with no risk. So since time isn't a factor in score, why not allow the armory assistant? Seems like a no-brainer to me. What's the reasoning, ZOS?

WitchyKiki · September 13

Jordan_Black wrote: »

Changing builds is a huge part of IA, it's so boring to try to tank your way through early arcs. Or else if you bring a dps build the squish starts to get real at medium arcs. And I mean, most importantly, you can tp to your house and back and if you do it fast enough your run is preserved. Or if you have two people, you just swap out one at a time and preserve your run with no risk. So since time isn't a factor in score, why not allow the armory assistant? Seems like a no-brainer to me. What's the reasoning, ZOS?

I don't understand this either, probably has to do with the leaderboard? I have ported out, changed, and come back in. Its handy to have a glass cannon for the first&second wave, then change to something tankier.

Jordan_Black · September 13

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Jordan_Black wrote: »

Changing builds is a huge part of IA, it's so boring to try to tank your way through early arcs. Or else if you bring a dps build the squish starts to get real at medium arcs. And I mean, most importantly, you can tp to your house and back and if you do it fast enough your run is preserved. Or if you have two people, you just swap out one at a time and preserve your run with no risk. So since time isn't a factor in score, why not allow the armory assistant? Seems like a no-brainer to me. What's the reasoning, ZOS?

I don't understand this either, probably has to do with the leaderboard? I have ported out, changed, and come back in. Its handy to have a glass cannon for the first&second wave, then change to something tankier.

I understand this when time is a factor in scoring for sure. But in IA it isn't...so how would it affect the leaderboard when you can port in and out?

WitchyKiki · September 13

Jordan_Black wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Jordan_Black wrote: »

Changing builds is a huge part of IA, it's so boring to try to tank your way through early arcs. Or else if you bring a dps build the squish starts to get real at medium arcs. And I mean, most importantly, you can tp to your house and back and if you do it fast enough your run is preserved. Or if you have two people, you just swap out one at a time and preserve your run with no risk. So since time isn't a factor in score, why not allow the armory assistant? Seems like a no-brainer to me. What's the reasoning, ZOS?

I don't understand this either, probably has to do with the leaderboard? I have ported out, changed, and come back in. Its handy to have a glass cannon for the first&second wave, then change to something tankier.

I understand this when time is a factor in scoring for sure. But in IA it isn't...so how would it affect the leaderboard when you can port in and out?

IDK man. I don't even understand how leaderboards work in this game, they don't seem to have a predictable pattern. Maybe it wasnt intentional ?

Necrotech_Master · September 13

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Jordan_Black wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Jordan_Black wrote: »

Changing builds is a huge part of IA, it's so boring to try to tank your way through early arcs. Or else if you bring a dps build the squish starts to get real at medium arcs. And I mean, most importantly, you can tp to your house and back and if you do it fast enough your run is preserved. Or if you have two people, you just swap out one at a time and preserve your run with no risk. So since time isn't a factor in score, why not allow the armory assistant? Seems like a no-brainer to me. What's the reasoning, ZOS?

I don't understand this either, probably has to do with the leaderboard? I have ported out, changed, and come back in. Its handy to have a glass cannon for the first&second wave, then change to something tankier.

I understand this when time is a factor in scoring for sure. But in IA it isn't...so how would it affect the leaderboard when you can port in and out?

IDK man. I don't even understand how leaderboards work in this game, they don't seem to have a predictable pattern. Maybe it wasnt intentional ?

the archive leaderboard is extremely predictable, it gives a fixed amount of points for each stage cleared

other leaderboards such as trials, are mostly scored for time and # lives remaining

Bradyfjord · September 13

I've been thinking the same thing OP. We need to be able to change our builds. If they want to limit it, then require us to do it after clearing the current level. Starting a new level could disable it again until the level is clear.

oldbobdude · September 13

The warning when you try to summon armory in IA is that you can’t summon this assistant to a leaderboard event. Why? I don’t know. When you summon your companion it just tells you your leaderboard status has changed. I’m not in the archive for score so give me a warning “your assistant removes this run from the leaderboards” or something like that.

Jordan_Black · September 14

oldbobdude wrote: »

The warning when you try to summon armory in IA is that you can’t summon this assistant to a leaderboard event. Why? I don’t know. When you summon your companion it just tells you your leaderboard status has changed. I’m not in the archive for score so give me a warning “your assistant removes this run from the leaderboards” or something like that.

Another option here I suppose, but once again, given you can TP to your house and use your actual armory with no loss of score, and a risk of losing the run only if solo, there is no reason not to allow the use of assistant even in the case of score.

RaptorRodeoGod · September 14

At the very least they should put one in the hub area

code65536 · September 14

Originally, when IA first appeared in the U40 PTS last year, you could freely use Armory Assistants anywhere in IA.

They then said that this was "not intended" and disabled the assistants.

Their stated reasoning was that armory assistants are not allowed during scored content, and since IA was scored and had a leaderboard, it would be disabled.

But this reasoning is specious, because for all scored content, you can leave the instance and use the armory assistant outside, and then port back in. Instances reset 5 minutes after the last person leaves, and that's ample time to use the armory assistant (or even to respec the old-fashioned way using shrines). Additionally, you could also respec using crown scrolls without leaving the instance.

The advantage that the assistant gives people, then, is that it's fast. Porting out to respec or even using a respec scroll on the spot takes time, and for all scored content prior to IA, time is an important component of the score, so this restriction made sense.

But since IA is not timed and you are allowed to take as long as you like with the score being determined solely by how deep you progress, there is absolutely no advantage from using an assistant. It's just a convenience and nothing more.

I and many others made this argument last year when the restrictions were first put in place, but it was ignored. I strongly believe now, as I did back then, that ZOS is absolutely wrong here.

Oh, and to rub salt in the wound, the armory assistant is not usable from the moment you port in to the moment you port out. With scored trials and arenas, you actually can use the armory assistant as long as the trial's timer has not started, and once the trial has completed and the score finalized, you're able to use the assistant again. But with IA, you can't use it before entering the wings and starting IA, and you still can't use it even after all threads are severed and the score has been finalized. So the restrictions on use are actually stronger in IA than in trials and arenas, even though there's no need for the restrictions in the first place in IA.

It's frankly appalling that this unnecessary restriction is still in place a year after.

oldbobdude · September 14

Jordan_Black wrote: »

oldbobdude wrote: »

The warning when you try to summon armory in IA is that you can’t summon this assistant to a leaderboard event. Why? I don’t know. When you summon your companion it just tells you your leaderboard status has changed. I’m not in the archive for score so give me a warning “your assistant removes this run from the leaderboards” or something like that.

Another option here I suppose, but once again, given you can TP to your house and use your actual armory with no loss of score, and a risk of losing the run only if solo, there is no reason not to allow the use of assistant even in the case of score.

Thats true. It’s the way it is now which further illustrates there isn’t any valid reason to stop the armory assistant from spawning.

CGPsaint · September 15

PC players don't even need to use the armory assistant when they can just use add-ons and swap gear on the fly. And yet we console peasants are over here being treated like second class citizens as usual. I don't feel like going in and manually adjusting my entire build multiple times for deeper runs, so I just stop after 5-6 arcs and call it a day. Either make content more accessible or don't expect players to waste time running it.

Hvíthákarl · September 15

CGPsaint wrote: »

PC players don't even need to use the armory assistant when they can just use add-ons and swap gear on the fly.

PC player here, my IA build is vastly different to my main build so an addon won't do the work.

Stafford197 · September 15

code65536 wrote: »

Originally, when IA first appeared in the U40 PTS last year, you could freely use Armory Assistants anywhere in IA.

They then said that this was "not intended" and disabled the assistants.

Their stated reasoning was that armory assistants are not allowed during scored content, and since IA was scored and had a leaderboard, it would be disabled.

But this reasoning is specious, because for all scored content, you can leave the instance and use the armory assistant outside, and then port back in. Instances reset 5 minutes after the last person leaves, and that's ample time to use the armory assistant (or even to respec the old-fashioned way using shrines). Additionally, you could also respec using crown scrolls without leaving the instance.

The advantage that the assistant gives people, then, is that it's fast. Porting out to respec or even using a respec scroll on the spot takes time, and for all scored content prior to IA, time is an important component of the score, so this restriction made sense.

But since IA is not timed and you are allowed to take as long as you like with the score being determined solely by how deep you progress, there is absolutely no advantage from using an assistant. It's just a convenience and nothing more.

I and many others made this argument last year when the restrictions were first put in place, but it was ignored. I strongly believe now, as I did back then, that ZOS is absolutely wrong here.

Oh, and to rub salt in the wound, the armory assistant is not usable from the moment you port in to the moment you port out. With scored trials and arenas, you actually can use the armory assistant as long as the trial's timer has not started, and once the trial has completed and the score finalized, you're able to use the assistant again. But with IA, you can't use it before entering the wings and starting IA, and you still can't use it even after all threads are severed and the score has been finalized. So the restrictions on use are actually stronger in IA than in trials and arenas, even though there's no need for the restrictions in the first place in IA.

It's frankly appalling that this unnecessary restriction is still in place a year after.

^^^ Exactly this!

And even more concerning imo is that anyone who understands how the Armory interacts with group content already knows this. So why doesn’t ZOS know this?

After all, it’s not a bug. This was an intentional change made for the sole purpose of not allowing Armory usage in IA.

It’s so blatantly unfriendly towards players.

Estin · September 15

Respec Stations, Armory, and Mundus stones need to be placed in the hub area since you can go there at any time throughout your run. There's a lot of empty space in the hub area that can be used to place them there. ZOS should add them for convenience's sake since everybody who intends to get far in the archives leaves to change builds.

kargen27 · September 16

The armory assistant is a crown store item and could be seen as pay to win if allowed in content with leader boards. The armory station is free so could be available to all players equally so not pay to win.

Bradyfjord · September 16

kargen27 wrote: »

The armory assistant is a crown store item and could be seen as pay to win if allowed in content with leader boards. The armory station is free so could be available to all players equally so not pay to win.

There's nothing to win for this particular leaderboard that I'm aware of. Of course I'm not getting far enough to find out.

NoSoup · September 16

kargen27 wrote: »

The armory assistant is a crown store item and could be seen as pay to win if allowed in content with leader boards. The armory station is free so could be available to all players equally so not pay to win.

Add an armory station to the main hall, problem solved....

code65536 · September 16

CGPsaint wrote: »

PC players don't even need to use the armory assistant when they can just use add-ons and swap gear on the fly. And yet we console peasants are over here being treated like second class citizens as usual. I don't feel like going in and manually adjusting my entire build multiple times for deeper runs, so I just stop after 5-6 arcs and call it a day. Either make content more accessible or don't expect players to waste time running it.

It's not just about gear and ability bars. People often need to change skill morphs and attributes too, due to how much combat changes in IA as the visions reshape your character.

kargen27 wrote: »

The armory assistant is a crown store item and could be seen as pay to win if allowed in content with leader boards. The armory station is free so could be available to all players equally so not pay to win.

This is the same specious argument that ZOS makes. You are comparing the use of the armory assistant versus not respecing at all. The correct comparison is comparing the use of the armory assistant versus porting to your house to use your home's armory station. And the advantage that it offers is that it saves you the time of porting out and porting back in. Saving time is indeed an advantage for timed content where time affects score, which is why this restriction makes sense for trials and arenas.

But IA is untimed, so there is no advantage.

Jordan_Black · September 16

I mean, if the deal really is that they feel that people will feel offended that bringing out the assistant is PTW, which it obviously isn't when you think it through, but I grant them there are plenty of people that will not think it through, then yeah, just put an Armory station in the index and bam, all problems solved. Then you don't have to go through the awkward porting to swap (risking your run to time if you're solo).

Ilumia · September 17

Maybe it's an intentional thing, you know, to make the whole thing more tedious - it's the only answer I can come up with, since it's the only effect of it, but who knows

pklemming · September 18

I really don't see the issue here. Port to your house, swap armory slot, port back in and continue. It takes 2 minutes.

I have 6 builds on my Arcanist for IA, 2 of which require me to be in my 'tank form'. 2 minutes out of 4-5 hours does not make it any more tedious than it already is.

code65536 · September 18

pklemming wrote: »

I really don't see the issue here. Port to your house, swap armory slot, port back in and continue. It takes 2 minutes.

I have 6 builds on my Arcanist for IA, 2 of which require me to be in my 'tank form'. 2 minutes out of 4-5 hours does not make it any more tedious than it already is.

Yes, we all love staring at the load screen images for fun.

Don't you see that's the whole point here? The restriction does not prevent people from swapping builds. All that is does is force people to go through two load screens. Because that makes for such a great user experience.

Does a couple of minutes matter when doing IA for hours? No, which is why I currently do the whole port home and port back thing to adjust my builds. But it's annoying. And unnecessarily so.