Kinda Surprised this board is not FILLED with Update 44 PVP makeover Chatter

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tomofhyrule wrote: »

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kargen27 wrote: »

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ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

It isn't a "complete pvp makeover" as far as we know. The marketing materials (among other things) indicate it is battleground related. Many of us don't care for BGs, its the open world/ic style pvp that draws us to eso. After 6 years of receiving 0 content, for people like me, it is extremely disappointing to find out that they've focused their efforts into BGs rather than the incredible open world pvp systems they have.

Who knows, maybe the rumors/marketing materials aren't accurate - but I doubt it.

more areas for open world PvP would be devastating to PvP. There isn't the population to support more areas. The population isn't going to increase enough for another area to make sense until performance issues are taken care of.

I disagree. If they designed a new area with different mechanics and incentives, perhaps in a format we don't have (FFA with a small group limit), it could be very successful. Especially if they do it in way that avoids the things which cause cyrodiil to perform so poorly (12 man group sizes, objectives that encourage everyone on the map being in the same spot at once, etc).

Alternatively, they could apply the same concepts to an overhaul/rework of IC.

They aren't going to fix the performance issues in cyrodiil. Stating that they "shouldn't do any new content until that is resolved" is the same thing as saying "they shouldn't do any new content". They've tried for years - it isn't going to happen. The best they can do at this point is design new content which avoids the primary causes of cyrodiil performance issues.

I think the point that they're trying to make - which is a fear I have - is that adding a new PvP mode will be the death sentence for other PvP modes.

Imagine if there were 100 PvP players and currently 70 of them main Cyrodiil, and then 15 each in IC and BGs. What happens when a new mode gets added? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the new mode would have some population that will spring into existence, but time and time again, this forum has proven that the vast majority of casual and PvE players want nothing to do with PvP. That means that unless you can scoop players from other games, the playerbase for the new modes will come from the existing PvP modes.

So lets say that the new mode stabilizes at 25 players of our hypothetical 100. If this is a BG-esque group v group thing, we might not get too many IC mains to swap over and the AvA will be mostly untouched, so we can probably assume we still have like 12 ICers and 62 people in Cyro. So 25 in the new mode + 12 in IC + 62 in Cyro = 99 people in modes that aren't the standard BGs.

Sucks to be that one, amirite?

Yes, that's all hypothetical and these numbers came right out of my nether regions. But still, the fact that we have people complaining that IC and BGs are severely underpopulated means that doing something to reduce those populations is not going to be healthy for those modes. And one of Cyro's major problems with the population is that most of the Cyro population is trying to get into a single campaign, leaving the other campaigns with the same issues of no people to play them (and paradoxically interminable queues for GH since people would rather sit in queue for hours than bother with one of the underpopulated campaigns).

ZOS is in a bind here. They could either not add a new mode (and turn off the PvP community) or add a new mode thereby spreading the small community out further and making all of the PvP modes less populated (and turning off the PvP community).

I guess this is technically a blessing for the "give us a PvE version of cyro/IC" crowd though. If they add a new PvP mode that's actual PvP, that means the week or so it's new will have the PvP community trying to get into the new mode, which means Cyro and IC are gonna be totally empty for those who want to do their PvE stuff in those zones without being bothered.

They would need to reduce existing instances, sure. But the PVP population is low because there has been no new content in 6 years. People get tired of doing the exact same things over and over again with no decent rewards, especially when the performance and balance continue to degrade as well.

A new zone, if designed well with a good reward system, would certainly draw back old players and perhaps introduce new ones. Let's not forget that when IC came into the game, they raised the gear level to V16 (cp 160) and had the materials to make the new gear obtainable via IC. Putting good rewards into new PVP content certainly could introduce non-pvp oriented players to PVP, and perhaps even get them invested in it long term.

That said, I'm not opposed to a rework of IC rather than a new zone - I wrote a very detailed post on how I thought they could go about doing that. At this point, doing anything is better than doing nothing, even if it risks spreading the population more thinly.

tomofhyrule

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

It isn't a "complete pvp makeover" as far as we know. The marketing materials (among other things) indicate it is battleground related. Many of us don't care for BGs, its the open world/ic style pvp that draws us to eso. After 6 years of receiving 0 content, for people like me, it is extremely disappointing to find out that they've focused their efforts into BGs rather than the incredible open world pvp systems they have.

Who knows, maybe the rumors/marketing materials aren't accurate - but I doubt it.

more areas for open world PvP would be devastating to PvP. There isn't the population to support more areas. The population isn't going to increase enough for another area to make sense until performance issues are taken care of.

I disagree. If they designed a new area with different mechanics and incentives, perhaps in a format we don't have (FFA with a small group limit), it could be very successful. Especially if they do it in way that avoids the things which cause cyrodiil to perform so poorly (12 man group sizes, objectives that encourage everyone on the map being in the same spot at once, etc).

Alternatively, they could apply the same concepts to an overhaul/rework of IC.

They aren't going to fix the performance issues in cyrodiil. Stating that they "shouldn't do any new content until that is resolved" is the same thing as saying "they shouldn't do any new content". They've tried for years - it isn't going to happen. The best they can do at this point is design new content which avoids the primary causes of cyrodiil performance issues.

I think the point that they're trying to make - which is a fear I have - is that adding a new PvP mode will be the death sentence for other PvP modes.

Imagine if there were 100 PvP players and currently 70 of them main Cyrodiil, and then 15 each in IC and BGs. What happens when a new mode gets added? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the new mode would have some population that will spring into existence, but time and time again, this forum has proven that the vast majority of casual and PvE players want nothing to do with PvP. That means that unless you can scoop players from other games, the playerbase for the new modes will come from the existing PvP modes.

So lets say that the new mode stabilizes at 25 players of our hypothetical 100. If this is a BG-esque group v group thing, we might not get too many IC mains to swap over and the AvA will be mostly untouched, so we can probably assume we still have like 12 ICers and 62 people in Cyro. So 25 in the new mode + 12 in IC + 62 in Cyro = 99 people in modes that aren't the standard BGs.

Sucks to be that one, amirite?

Yes, that's all hypothetical and these numbers came right out of my nether regions. But still, the fact that we have people complaining that IC and BGs are severely underpopulated means that doing something to reduce those populations is not going to be healthy for those modes. And one of Cyro's major problems with the population is that most of the Cyro population is trying to get into a single campaign, leaving the other campaigns with the same issues of no people to play them (and paradoxically interminable queues for GH since people would rather sit in queue for hours than bother with one of the underpopulated campaigns).

ZOS is in a bind here. They could either not add a new mode (and turn off the PvP community) or add a new mode thereby spreading the small community out further and making all of the PvP modes less populated (and turning off the PvP community).

I guess this is technically a blessing for the "give us a PvE version of cyro/IC" crowd though. If they add a new PvP mode that's actual PvP, that means the week or so it's new will have the PvP community trying to get into the new mode, which means Cyro and IC are gonna be totally empty for those who want to do their PvE stuff in those zones without being bothered.

Let's not forget that when IC came into the game, they raised the gear level to V16 (cp 160) and had the materials to make the new gear obtainable via IC. Putting good rewards into new PVP content certainly could introduce non-pvp oriented players to PVP, and perhaps even get them invested in it long term.

Oh, like how the style pages they put in for every MYM event really inspire all of the fashion-scrolls players to stick around in IC after the event's done? Or how the endgame mats and transmutes we can get in Tribute coffers are really inspiring a large population to stick around and do those? And I notice that the TV/AP-only styles are also making the PvE community love to go into IC all the time. I also notice that the CP160 mats you talk about are only available in IC and really get people to go there regularly to get them...

It's absolutely true that a new mode will get a brief boost and will inspire people to come back to check it out, and it will inspire some people to come check it out and try the new achievements. However, once that honeymoon period is over, things will start to settle back down. I'm not going to deny that you'll probably get a few people back. But you seem to be assuming that nobody will leave, including those who doesn't like the new mode and now finds that their preferred mode empty. And as we've seen on this forum, many PvPers are under the assumption that all it will take is one fun run to get a PvEr to jump the fence and play PvP full time, despite many PvErs saying that there is nothing that anyone could do to make them switch. And that's assuming said PvEr actually has a good run and doesn't just get stomped instantly since PvP has a very high learning curve.

PvP has absolutely been neglected. At the very least, we should have gotten a new BG map with every dungeon pack (the last sets ended up reusing dungeon assets, so that would not have been too much extra to just add a single BG room with the existing assets every time), and ranked duelling with quests, reward boxes, and more achieves should absolutely have been added before the Tribute version of the same was added. We can see why the crowd who came to ESO specifically has been turned away. But... considering the franchise, it's also obvious why the pivot to PvE and casuals was made. The TES series is one of the major single player lose-500-hours-in-this-game RPGs, so of course ESO should try to entice that specific audience.

I just worry about the addition of something that will reduce the PvP playerbase more than the number of people who it will bring back. I thought ranked duelling would be good since it wouldn't really remove too many people from existing modes at a time, or maybe making some fixes to Cyrodiil since the original PvP group came for the AvAvA thing and maybe you could get some of them back, but we know it's not Cyro related and a duelling leaderboard seems underwhelming for most PvPers.

It's going to be tough to thread the needle of "we want something that will bring people into PvP without turning people off of PvP because the already-small population is only spread thinner." And I really, truly, do wish you the best. PvP deserves way more love than just the "we're nerfing skills again and blaming PvP" that it's been given. And I hope that whatever this new mode is ends up being just fun enough for PvPers to enjoy but not too much to still keep a population in the other modes.

React

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

It isn't a "complete pvp makeover" as far as we know. The marketing materials (among other things) indicate it is battleground related. Many of us don't care for BGs, its the open world/ic style pvp that draws us to eso. After 6 years of receiving 0 content, for people like me, it is extremely disappointing to find out that they've focused their efforts into BGs rather than the incredible open world pvp systems they have.

Who knows, maybe the rumors/marketing materials aren't accurate - but I doubt it.

more areas for open world PvP would be devastating to PvP. There isn't the population to support more areas. The population isn't going to increase enough for another area to make sense until performance issues are taken care of.

I disagree. If they designed a new area with different mechanics and incentives, perhaps in a format we don't have (FFA with a small group limit), it could be very successful. Especially if they do it in way that avoids the things which cause cyrodiil to perform so poorly (12 man group sizes, objectives that encourage everyone on the map being in the same spot at once, etc).

Alternatively, they could apply the same concepts to an overhaul/rework of IC.

They aren't going to fix the performance issues in cyrodiil. Stating that they "shouldn't do any new content until that is resolved" is the same thing as saying "they shouldn't do any new content". They've tried for years - it isn't going to happen. The best they can do at this point is design new content which avoids the primary causes of cyrodiil performance issues.

I think the point that they're trying to make - which is a fear I have - is that adding a new PvP mode will be the death sentence for other PvP modes.

Imagine if there were 100 PvP players and currently 70 of them main Cyrodiil, and then 15 each in IC and BGs. What happens when a new mode gets added? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the new mode would have some population that will spring into existence, but time and time again, this forum has proven that the vast majority of casual and PvE players want nothing to do with PvP. That means that unless you can scoop players from other games, the playerbase for the new modes will come from the existing PvP modes.

So lets say that the new mode stabilizes at 25 players of our hypothetical 100. If this is a BG-esque group v group thing, we might not get too many IC mains to swap over and the AvA will be mostly untouched, so we can probably assume we still have like 12 ICers and 62 people in Cyro. So 25 in the new mode + 12 in IC + 62 in Cyro = 99 people in modes that aren't the standard BGs.

Sucks to be that one, amirite?

Yes, that's all hypothetical and these numbers came right out of my nether regions. But still, the fact that we have people complaining that IC and BGs are severely underpopulated means that doing something to reduce those populations is not going to be healthy for those modes. And one of Cyro's major problems with the population is that most of the Cyro population is trying to get into a single campaign, leaving the other campaigns with the same issues of no people to play them (and paradoxically interminable queues for GH since people would rather sit in queue for hours than bother with one of the underpopulated campaigns).

ZOS is in a bind here. They could either not add a new mode (and turn off the PvP community) or add a new mode thereby spreading the small community out further and making all of the PvP modes less populated (and turning off the PvP community).

I guess this is technically a blessing for the "give us a PvE version of cyro/IC" crowd though. If they add a new PvP mode that's actual PvP, that means the week or so it's new will have the PvP community trying to get into the new mode, which means Cyro and IC are gonna be totally empty for those who want to do their PvE stuff in those zones without being bothered.

Let's not forget that when IC came into the game, they raised the gear level to V16 (cp 160) and had the materials to make the new gear obtainable via IC. Putting good rewards into new PVP content certainly could introduce non-pvp oriented players to PVP, and perhaps even get them invested in it long term.

Oh, like how the style pages they put in for every MYM event really inspire all of the fashion-scrolls players to stick around in IC after the event's done? Or how the endgame mats and transmutes we can get in Tribute coffers are really inspiring a large population to stick around and do those? And I notice that the TV/AP-only styles are also making the PvE community love to go into IC all the time. I also notice that the CP160 mats you talk about are only available in IC and really get people to go there regularly to get them...

The examples you've given are poor rewards, and hardly compare to what I was referencing with the initial introduction of IC.

When those materials were added, IC was THE way to get them. All of your gear was worthless and suddenly the best way to upgrade it was to go to IC to get the materials you needed to make your gear decent again. That is actually what got me into PVP all those years ago as an inept little nightblade in whatever gear pieces I could find - getting kills against equally inept players while hunting rewards in a PVP zone, and being farmed by far superior players and wanting to become like them.

Sure, you'd never buy rubedo leather or ancestor silk for telvar now - but at the time when they were added 8 years ago or so, the rewards were extremely valuable and brought plenty of people into the environment.

New ranking systems with ingame displays similar to alliance rank (such as a telvar rank) and various rewards tied to the ranks, new high tier cosmetics such as polymorps, exclusive mounts, new skill colorings, ability modifying weapons, etc. The possibilities are endless, and yet they've chosen so far to mainly offer rewards like the ones you cited - which obviously are poor incentives for anybody.

malistorr

I've played ESO for about 6+ years, first on PC and then Xbox. I've never once ran a BG. If they update that cool for people who play them. I'll still to Cyrodiil and occasionally IC if I need some telvar for a specific reason.

SkaraMinoc

This would knock it out of the park.

- Overland PvP toggle
- Update to Cyrodiil (new artifact weapon, Level 3 upgrade, etc)
- Update to IC
- Competitive BG with leaderboard
- Casual BG Updates

They said no Cyrodiil update but they should think about updating in the future.

deadpool3431

As far as I'm aware it is a bg update. I've lived in cyrodiil and ic since 2019ish. I'm not a bg fan so this really doesn't excite me at all. I just hope they nerf shields.

Jsmalls

Yeah if it's BG related content....

The que times for BGs is enough evidence that BGs aren't a popular form of PvP in ESO...

Prime time populations of Cyrodiil stretch to about 500 active players (this is with the assumption that a population locked campaign has 80 players per faction) with probably another 100 or so in the que.

Now don't get me wrong 500 players is... Pathetic. For a MMO that claims to have the playerbase it states.

But BGs probably has 1/20 of that. Maybe 1/10 during deathmatch weekend.

If it's truly BGs content and say 8v8 I really hope they remove cross heal stacking the same update otherwise it'll be dead in arrival (unless there is a random mode).

But at the end of the day a BG match is momentary.

Cryodiil has something really special in it's design. Put in mechanisms that influence (or force) players to spread out across the map. Do something about keep to keep travel (Mount speed up by 50% and fix stuck in combat).

And give Cyrodiil real updates... Modified keep defense, modified keep offense, siege QoL updates, more deadric artifacts, Strong temporary buffs for doing objectives not tied to keeps, shorter campaigns (3 day and 7 day campaigns let's your actions feel more impactful and gives you more opportunities to chase being Emperor, and make it so the person highest on the leaderboard ONLINE gets crowned when taking the inner keeps, debateable..).

There are so many good ideas for Cyrodiil (ZoS feel free to message me I'll give free consultations).

tomofhyrule

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

It isn't a "complete pvp makeover" as far as we know. The marketing materials (among other things) indicate it is battleground related. Many of us don't care for BGs, its the open world/ic style pvp that draws us to eso. After 6 years of receiving 0 content, for people like me, it is extremely disappointing to find out that they've focused their efforts into BGs rather than the incredible open world pvp systems they have.

Who knows, maybe the rumors/marketing materials aren't accurate - but I doubt it.

more areas for open world PvP would be devastating to PvP. There isn't the population to support more areas. The population isn't going to increase enough for another area to make sense until performance issues are taken care of.

I disagree. If they designed a new area with different mechanics and incentives, perhaps in a format we don't have (FFA with a small group limit), it could be very successful. Especially if they do it in way that avoids the things which cause cyrodiil to perform so poorly (12 man group sizes, objectives that encourage everyone on the map being in the same spot at once, etc).

Alternatively, they could apply the same concepts to an overhaul/rework of IC.

They aren't going to fix the performance issues in cyrodiil. Stating that they "shouldn't do any new content until that is resolved" is the same thing as saying "they shouldn't do any new content". They've tried for years - it isn't going to happen. The best they can do at this point is design new content which avoids the primary causes of cyrodiil performance issues.

I think the point that they're trying to make - which is a fear I have - is that adding a new PvP mode will be the death sentence for other PvP modes.

Imagine if there were 100 PvP players and currently 70 of them main Cyrodiil, and then 15 each in IC and BGs. What happens when a new mode gets added? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the new mode would have some population that will spring into existence, but time and time again, this forum has proven that the vast majority of casual and PvE players want nothing to do with PvP. That means that unless you can scoop players from other games, the playerbase for the new modes will come from the existing PvP modes.

So lets say that the new mode stabilizes at 25 players of our hypothetical 100. If this is a BG-esque group v group thing, we might not get too many IC mains to swap over and the AvA will be mostly untouched, so we can probably assume we still have like 12 ICers and 62 people in Cyro. So 25 in the new mode + 12 in IC + 62 in Cyro = 99 people in modes that aren't the standard BGs.

Sucks to be that one, amirite?

Yes, that's all hypothetical and these numbers came right out of my nether regions. But still, the fact that we have people complaining that IC and BGs are severely underpopulated means that doing something to reduce those populations is not going to be healthy for those modes. And one of Cyro's major problems with the population is that most of the Cyro population is trying to get into a single campaign, leaving the other campaigns with the same issues of no people to play them (and paradoxically interminable queues for GH since people would rather sit in queue for hours than bother with one of the underpopulated campaigns).

ZOS is in a bind here. They could either not add a new mode (and turn off the PvP community) or add a new mode thereby spreading the small community out further and making all of the PvP modes less populated (and turning off the PvP community).

I guess this is technically a blessing for the "give us a PvE version of cyro/IC" crowd though. If they add a new PvP mode that's actual PvP, that means the week or so it's new will have the PvP community trying to get into the new mode, which means Cyro and IC are gonna be totally empty for those who want to do their PvE stuff in those zones without being bothered.

Let's not forget that when IC came into the game, they raised the gear level to V16 (cp 160) and had the materials to make the new gear obtainable via IC. Putting good rewards into new PVP content certainly could introduce non-pvp oriented players to PVP, and perhaps even get them invested in it long term.

Oh, like how the style pages they put in for every MYM event really inspire all of the fashion-scrolls players to stick around in IC after the event's done? Or how the endgame mats and transmutes we can get in Tribute coffers are really inspiring a large population to stick around and do those? And I notice that the TV/AP-only styles are also making the PvE community love to go into IC all the time. I also notice that the CP160 mats you talk about are only available in IC and really get people to go there regularly to get them...

The examples you've given are poor rewards, and hardly compare to what I was referencing with the initial introduction of IC.

When those materials were added, IC was THE way to get them. All of your gear was worthless and suddenly the best way to upgrade it was to go to IC to get the materials you needed to make your gear decent again. That is actually what got me into PVP all those years ago as an inept little nightblade in whatever gear pieces I could find - getting kills against equally inept players while hunting rewards in a PVP zone, and being farmed by far superior players and wanting to become like them.

Sure, you'd never buy rubedo leather or ancestor silk for telvar now - but at the time when they were added 8 years ago or so, the rewards were extremely valuable and brought plenty of people into the environment.

New ranking systems with ingame displays similar to alliance rank (such as a telvar rank) and various rewards tied to the ranks, new high tier cosmetics such as polymorps, exclusive mounts, new skill colorings, ability modifying weapons, etc. The possibilities are endless, and yet they've chosen so far to mainly offer rewards like the ones you cited - which obviously are poor incentives for anybody.

They are poor rewards... for some people. For others, fashion is the endgame.

I feel like there was a whole discussion a while back that ESO ran a limited time "get these 5 rare style pages by farming stuff for a limited time" event. If it was "just style pages that are poor rewards," then why are we still dealing with a significantly lower game population since so many people burned out after endlessly farming geysers? Because for a lot of people, style pages are the rewards they'll chase.

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

And I doubt you'll see something like "yeah, we're raising the gear cap so all of your gear is trash and you need to farm the new PvP thing to get back to top level" again. As we see, it wasn't long before a PvE source of top-level mats was introduced. And again, as has been said, if you force PvE players into PvP... well, it's a lot easier to push 'uninstall' than it is to do anything else.

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

Stamicka

They only announced a new PvP feature, not a makeover. You might be referencing the big PvP "server rearchitecture", but that project basically turned into vapor and was never heard of again. This is why people don't really get hyped for PvP, ZOS basically never delivers.

A lot of evidence seems to point to the new PvP feature being BG related. I actually love BGs, but unfortunately they just aren't successful for a game like ESO, especially in it's current state. They just don't appeal to anyone that still regularly plays ESO. BGs are the only PvP environment that tries to match players by skill level. BGs also don't allow outnumbering people to win since it's in a 4v4v4 format. This is kind of a sweaty PvP format, especially if BGs become 4v4 or 8v8 instead of having a 3rd team.

So this creates a big problem when you look at ESO's playerbase. There's probably like 5 or so delusional people left who still sweat ESO. They just won't find a BG queue because there's quite literally no one else that still takes the game seriously enough to end up in their lobbies. Even in the rare instances that those people do find lobbies, it will devolve into teams of 4 people with 40k health, cross heals, group buff sets, and all types of uncompetitive things. On top of that, a lot of these people can't mentally handle the competition of being paired with people within the same MMR bracket. They're too scared of dying and will likely have an ego collapse if they lose.

At the end of the day, ESO has basically no actual competitive PvPers. It only has people that only feel comfortable attacking when they outnumber someone, or those who like to kill players or groups of players outside of an environment where players are matched by skill level. BGs don't really allow for either. It's just a bit too serious of a PvP format for such an unserious and unbalanced game without the players to support it. Not to mention the actual BG game modes suck too (especially Crazy King).

As much as I love BGs, ZOS should have done something related to open world PvP to appeal to the types of players it still has. BG support would've been great in the early years when this game actually still had PvPers.

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tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

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kargen27 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

It isn't a "complete pvp makeover" as far as we know. The marketing materials (among other things) indicate it is battleground related. Many of us don't care for BGs, its the open world/ic style pvp that draws us to eso. After 6 years of receiving 0 content, for people like me, it is extremely disappointing to find out that they've focused their efforts into BGs rather than the incredible open world pvp systems they have.

Who knows, maybe the rumors/marketing materials aren't accurate - but I doubt it.

more areas for open world PvP would be devastating to PvP. There isn't the population to support more areas. The population isn't going to increase enough for another area to make sense until performance issues are taken care of.

I disagree. If they designed a new area with different mechanics and incentives, perhaps in a format we don't have (FFA with a small group limit), it could be very successful. Especially if they do it in way that avoids the things which cause cyrodiil to perform so poorly (12 man group sizes, objectives that encourage everyone on the map being in the same spot at once, etc).

Alternatively, they could apply the same concepts to an overhaul/rework of IC.

They aren't going to fix the performance issues in cyrodiil. Stating that they "shouldn't do any new content until that is resolved" is the same thing as saying "they shouldn't do any new content". They've tried for years - it isn't going to happen. The best they can do at this point is design new content which avoids the primary causes of cyrodiil performance issues.

I think the point that they're trying to make - which is a fear I have - is that adding a new PvP mode will be the death sentence for other PvP modes.

Imagine if there were 100 PvP players and currently 70 of them main Cyrodiil, and then 15 each in IC and BGs. What happens when a new mode gets added? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the new mode would have some population that will spring into existence, but time and time again, this forum has proven that the vast majority of casual and PvE players want nothing to do with PvP. That means that unless you can scoop players from other games, the playerbase for the new modes will come from the existing PvP modes.

So lets say that the new mode stabilizes at 25 players of our hypothetical 100. If this is a BG-esque group v group thing, we might not get too many IC mains to swap over and the AvA will be mostly untouched, so we can probably assume we still have like 12 ICers and 62 people in Cyro. So 25 in the new mode + 12 in IC + 62 in Cyro = 99 people in modes that aren't the standard BGs.

Sucks to be that one, amirite?

Yes, that's all hypothetical and these numbers came right out of my nether regions. But still, the fact that we have people complaining that IC and BGs are severely underpopulated means that doing something to reduce those populations is not going to be healthy for those modes. And one of Cyro's major problems with the population is that most of the Cyro population is trying to get into a single campaign, leaving the other campaigns with the same issues of no people to play them (and paradoxically interminable queues for GH since people would rather sit in queue for hours than bother with one of the underpopulated campaigns).

ZOS is in a bind here. They could either not add a new mode (and turn off the PvP community) or add a new mode thereby spreading the small community out further and making all of the PvP modes less populated (and turning off the PvP community).

I guess this is technically a blessing for the "give us a PvE version of cyro/IC" crowd though. If they add a new PvP mode that's actual PvP, that means the week or so it's new will have the PvP community trying to get into the new mode, which means Cyro and IC are gonna be totally empty for those who want to do their PvE stuff in those zones without being bothered.

Let's not forget that when IC came into the game, they raised the gear level to V16 (cp 160) and had the materials to make the new gear obtainable via IC. Putting good rewards into new PVP content certainly could introduce non-pvp oriented players to PVP, and perhaps even get them invested in it long term.

Oh, like how the style pages they put in for every MYM event really inspire all of the fashion-scrolls players to stick around in IC after the event's done? Or how the endgame mats and transmutes we can get in Tribute coffers are really inspiring a large population to stick around and do those? And I notice that the TV/AP-only styles are also making the PvE community love to go into IC all the time. I also notice that the CP160 mats you talk about are only available in IC and really get people to go there regularly to get them...

The examples you've given are poor rewards, and hardly compare to what I was referencing with the initial introduction of IC.

When those materials were added, IC was THE way to get them. All of your gear was worthless and suddenly the best way to upgrade it was to go to IC to get the materials you needed to make your gear decent again. That is actually what got me into PVP all those years ago as an inept little nightblade in whatever gear pieces I could find - getting kills against equally inept players while hunting rewards in a PVP zone, and being farmed by far superior players and wanting to become like them.

Sure, you'd never buy rubedo leather or ancestor silk for telvar now - but at the time when they were added 8 years ago or so, the rewards were extremely valuable and brought plenty of people into the environment.

New ranking systems with ingame displays similar to alliance rank (such as a telvar rank) and various rewards tied to the ranks, new high tier cosmetics such as polymorps, exclusive mounts, new skill colorings, ability modifying weapons, etc. The possibilities are endless, and yet they've chosen so far to mainly offer rewards like the ones you cited - which obviously are poor incentives for anybody.

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

So you're not a PVP player, and you "hate every second you spend in pvp".

Speaking as a pvp player, most of the other pvp players that I know want a new zone more than anything else. They also want meaningful and worthwhile rewards to work towards.

Jsmalls

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

React

Jsmalls wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

There really is no way around this - the game has been out for a decade. It is a late stage MMO and even average PVP players with years of experience will seem untouchable to new players.

The best they can do is design new PVP content around what the current veteran PVP playerbase wants, while incentivizing it in a way that exposes new players to it in the hopes that some of them might want to stick around and try PVP in general.

I will say, I don't think that everybody who loses am Xv1 to a skilled player has a "miserable experience". I've received plenty of wholesome and awed whispers after finishing off groups solo, and I've even been able to direct and assist players like that from time to time. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, experiences like that are what got me hyped on PVP way back in the day.

Photosniper89

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

1) They have barely said anything... and wording went from new system to feature.
2) We can't talk about datamine stuff here so unable to comment on what may or may not be coming down the pipe.
3) They already said its no cyro related so the vast majority of people already tuned out.

I literally don't know anyone who plays cyro regularly who isn't moving to AoC when it launches.

Zos has clearly given up on cyro (remember when this game launched and they said PvP, cyro, was the end game content?) so almost all of us are just exhausted and ready for a new game.

Not to mention the insane and totally unacceptable server performance for most of this year - year no point in making threads related to pvp.

Jsmalls

React wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

There really is no way around this - the game has been out for a decade. It is a late stage MMO and even average PVP players with years of experience will seem untouchable to new players.

The best they can do is design new PVP content around what the current veteran PVP playerbase wants, while incentivizing it in a way that exposes new players to it in the hopes that some of them might want to stick around and try PVP in general.

I will say, I don't think that everybody who loses am Xv1 to a skilled player has a "miserable experience". I've received plenty of wholesome and awed whispers after finishing off groups solo, and I've even been able to direct and assist players like that from time to time. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, experiences like that are what got me hyped on PVP way back in the day.

I'm not sure ESO has the PvP population to support that first statement...

Like you said with the way you were first brought into PvP, that first interaction against similar skilled players matter. For me it was leveling to Max vet level in Cracked Wood Cave and PvPing against others also trying to level and then gaining champion points in Imperial City sewers doing the same thing fighting other people trying to level / get tel var.

During prime time we likely have less than 1000 people PvPing in ESO. That's a scary number. We need to introduce more players into the content because if it's catered to the veterans (many of which have dropped the game for lack of PvP content) then it's going to continue to die.

And I've definitely had a mixed bag of Whispers after 1vXing. Probably half saying you're a hacker, get reported and the other half saying wow that was impressive. I always share my build and knowledge when asked, but it's less often than when I'm called a cheater and blocked. So not entirely sure about this one.

Photosniper89

Jsmalls wrote: »

React wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

There really is no way around this - the game has been out for a decade. It is a late stage MMO and even average PVP players with years of experience will seem untouchable to new players.

The best they can do is design new PVP content around what the current veteran PVP playerbase wants, while incentivizing it in a way that exposes new players to it in the hopes that some of them might want to stick around and try PVP in general.

I will say, I don't think that everybody who loses am Xv1 to a skilled player has a "miserable experience". I've received plenty of wholesome and awed whispers after finishing off groups solo, and I've even been able to direct and assist players like that from time to time. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, experiences like that are what got me hyped on PVP way back in the day.

I'm not sure ESO has the PvP population to support that first statement...

Like you said with the way you were first brought into PvP, that first interaction against similar skilled players matter. For me it was leveling to Max vet level in Cracked Wood Cave and PvPing against others also trying to level and then gaining champion points in Imperial City sewers doing the same thing fighting other people trying to level / get tel var.

During prime time we likely have less than 1000 people PvPing in ESO. That's a scary number. We need to introduce more players into the content because if it's catered to the veterans (many of which have dropped the game for lack of PvP content) then it's going to continue to die.

And I've definitely had a mixed bag of Whispers after 1vXing. Probably half saying you're a hacker, get reported and the other half saying wow that was impressive. I always share my build and knowledge when asked, but it's less often than when I'm called a cheater and blocked. So not entirely sure about this one.

I keep seeing statements like this.

they keep lowering the pop cap to help reduce lag which is then putting a 1-2 hour queue just to get into cyro.

Then because of the server performance you crash and get kicked out of cyro (if youre lucky you avoid the login bug and can get back into cyro). Because of this people end up just giving up on the game.


Remember when they removed the pop cap and cyro was jam packed. There was literally 5 or 6 massssssive battles on the map at one time. Now it's a ghost town but we are pop locked and there is a queue.

I'd argue zos's own actions are what is making it seem like there isn't a big enough pvp population.

Ingenon

I have wondered for years why ZOS does not make a second copy of the popular Gray Host campaign. And if folks only pick the first campaign on the list, then ZOS should list the two copies in a random order every time someone opens the menu, so the original Gray Host and the new name campaign alternate for first listed. Two campaigns, exact same rules (All Levels, Champion Passives Enabled, Alliance Locked.), exact same population limits, random listing of the two campaigns.

Why do this? So that people don't have to wait in queue during prime time to play on a full server that is laggy.

Disclaimer: I usually only PvP during the Mayhem event. So if this is a terrible idea, sorry!

tomofhyrule

Photosniper89 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

React wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

There really is no way around this - the game has been out for a decade. It is a late stage MMO and even average PVP players with years of experience will seem untouchable to new players.

The best they can do is design new PVP content around what the current veteran PVP playerbase wants, while incentivizing it in a way that exposes new players to it in the hopes that some of them might want to stick around and try PVP in general.

I will say, I don't think that everybody who loses am Xv1 to a skilled player has a "miserable experience". I've received plenty of wholesome and awed whispers after finishing off groups solo, and I've even been able to direct and assist players like that from time to time. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, experiences like that are what got me hyped on PVP way back in the day.

I'm not sure ESO has the PvP population to support that first statement...

Like you said with the way you were first brought into PvP, that first interaction against similar skilled players matter. For me it was leveling to Max vet level in Cracked Wood Cave and PvPing against others also trying to level and then gaining champion points in Imperial City sewers doing the same thing fighting other people trying to level / get tel var.

During prime time we likely have less than 1000 people PvPing in ESO. That's a scary number. We need to introduce more players into the content because if it's catered to the veterans (many of which have dropped the game for lack of PvP content) then it's going to continue to die.

And I've definitely had a mixed bag of Whispers after 1vXing. Probably half saying you're a hacker, get reported and the other half saying wow that was impressive. I always share my build and knowledge when asked, but it's less often than when I'm called a cheater and blocked. So not entirely sure about this one.

I keep seeing statements like this.

they keep lowering the pop cap to help reduce lag which is then putting a 1-2 hour queue just to get into cyro.

Then because of the server performance you crash and get kicked out of cyro (if youre lucky you avoid the login bug and can get back into cyro). Because of this people end up just giving up on the game.


Remember when they removed the pop cap and cyro was jam packed. There was literally 5 or 6 massssssive battles on the map at one time. Now it's a ghost town but we are pop locked and there is a queue.

I'd argue zos's own actions are what is making it seem like there isn't a big enough pvp population.

So if the PvP playerbase is so massive that Cyro is perpetually poplocked and there's a multi-hour queue... why are the other Cyro campaigns on one bar? Why is IC on one bar? Why are people waiting ages to get into a BG? Where are all these PvPers when there are PvP modes that are desperate for more players?

Could it be... that the PvP playerbase is actually only hyperfocused on 'Grey Host or bust?'

Again, if people wanted to do Cyro PvP and didn't want to wait for the GH queue or deal with the GH performance issues, Blackreach is right there. And yet... they don't.
Here's the current standings for PCNA Blackreach:

Mind you, none of the alliances are getting a Low Score bonus. Not even the one that's got less than half of the other two. And I know that people say "oh, well one alliance just doesn't like to capture territory since 'ew PvD' so they'd rather play Horse Riding Simulator to get to the battle on the other end of the map instead of being able to Transitus there." But I looked at each alliance to see those leaderboard AP scores, and as expected the top place for EP is still in the 7-digit range while the other two alliances have leaders over 11.5 million. This means that EP, at least, is just not interested in playing anything but Grey Host.

So if these legions of people want to PvP, why aren't they PvPing in the areas where they can? Why are they actively avoiding these other areas? Or better, why are they leaving these other areas - I remember a few months back EP did have a presence in Blackreach, so what changed?

And that also begs the question... if they raised the pop caps so more people could get into Grey Host, would that take people from other modes (like the few who actually did do something else since Grey Host was full)? And, by that same token, would opening a new PvP mode relieve some pressure on Grey Host... or empty the other modes and not affect Grey Host since we see that the current population is hyperfocused on Grey Host?

TaSheen

@tomofhyrule - I think it's because GH is the only faction locked campaign.

Stamicka

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

React wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

React wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

It isn't a "complete pvp makeover" as far as we know. The marketing materials (among other things) indicate it is battleground related. Many of us don't care for BGs, its the open world/ic style pvp that draws us to eso. After 6 years of receiving 0 content, for people like me, it is extremely disappointing to find out that they've focused their efforts into BGs rather than the incredible open world pvp systems they have.

Who knows, maybe the rumors/marketing materials aren't accurate - but I doubt it.

more areas for open world PvP would be devastating to PvP. There isn't the population to support more areas. The population isn't going to increase enough for another area to make sense until performance issues are taken care of.

I disagree. If they designed a new area with different mechanics and incentives, perhaps in a format we don't have (FFA with a small group limit), it could be very successful. Especially if they do it in way that avoids the things which cause cyrodiil to perform so poorly (12 man group sizes, objectives that encourage everyone on the map being in the same spot at once, etc).

Alternatively, they could apply the same concepts to an overhaul/rework of IC.

They aren't going to fix the performance issues in cyrodiil. Stating that they "shouldn't do any new content until that is resolved" is the same thing as saying "they shouldn't do any new content". They've tried for years - it isn't going to happen. The best they can do at this point is design new content which avoids the primary causes of cyrodiil performance issues.

I think the point that they're trying to make - which is a fear I have - is that adding a new PvP mode will be the death sentence for other PvP modes.

Imagine if there were 100 PvP players and currently 70 of them main Cyrodiil, and then 15 each in IC and BGs. What happens when a new mode gets added? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the new mode would have some population that will spring into existence, but time and time again, this forum has proven that the vast majority of casual and PvE players want nothing to do with PvP. That means that unless you can scoop players from other games, the playerbase for the new modes will come from the existing PvP modes.

So lets say that the new mode stabilizes at 25 players of our hypothetical 100. If this is a BG-esque group v group thing, we might not get too many IC mains to swap over and the AvA will be mostly untouched, so we can probably assume we still have like 12 ICers and 62 people in Cyro. So 25 in the new mode + 12 in IC + 62 in Cyro = 99 people in modes that aren't the standard BGs.

Sucks to be that one, amirite?

Yes, that's all hypothetical and these numbers came right out of my nether regions. But still, the fact that we have people complaining that IC and BGs are severely underpopulated means that doing something to reduce those populations is not going to be healthy for those modes. And one of Cyro's major problems with the population is that most of the Cyro population is trying to get into a single campaign, leaving the other campaigns with the same issues of no people to play them (and paradoxically interminable queues for GH since people would rather sit in queue for hours than bother with one of the underpopulated campaigns).

ZOS is in a bind here. They could either not add a new mode (and turn off the PvP community) or add a new mode thereby spreading the small community out further and making all of the PvP modes less populated (and turning off the PvP community).

I guess this is technically a blessing for the "give us a PvE version of cyro/IC" crowd though. If they add a new PvP mode that's actual PvP, that means the week or so it's new will have the PvP community trying to get into the new mode, which means Cyro and IC are gonna be totally empty for those who want to do their PvE stuff in those zones without being bothered.

Let's not forget that when IC came into the game, they raised the gear level to V16 (cp 160) and had the materials to make the new gear obtainable via IC. Putting good rewards into new PVP content certainly could introduce non-pvp oriented players to PVP, and perhaps even get them invested in it long term.

Oh, like how the style pages they put in for every MYM event really inspire all of the fashion-scrolls players to stick around in IC after the event's done? Or how the endgame mats and transmutes we can get in Tribute coffers are really inspiring a large population to stick around and do those? And I notice that the TV/AP-only styles are also making the PvE community love to go into IC all the time. I also notice that the CP160 mats you talk about are only available in IC and really get people to go there regularly to get them...

The examples you've given are poor rewards, and hardly compare to what I was referencing with the initial introduction of IC.

When those materials were added, IC was THE way to get them. All of your gear was worthless and suddenly the best way to upgrade it was to go to IC to get the materials you needed to make your gear decent again. That is actually what got me into PVP all those years ago as an inept little nightblade in whatever gear pieces I could find - getting kills against equally inept players while hunting rewards in a PVP zone, and being farmed by far superior players and wanting to become like them.

Sure, you'd never buy rubedo leather or ancestor silk for telvar now - but at the time when they were added 8 years ago or so, the rewards were extremely valuable and brought plenty of people into the environment.

New ranking systems with ingame displays similar to alliance rank (such as a telvar rank) and various rewards tied to the ranks, new high tier cosmetics such as polymorps, exclusive mounts, new skill colorings, ability modifying weapons, etc. The possibilities are endless, and yet they've chosen so far to mainly offer rewards like the ones you cited - which obviously are poor incentives for anybody.

They are poor rewards... for some people. For others, fashion is the endgame.

I feel like there was a whole discussion a while back that ESO ran a limited time "get these 5 rare style pages by farming stuff for a limited time" event. If it was "just style pages that are poor rewards," then why are we still dealing with a significantly lower game population since so many people burned out after endlessly farming geysers? Because for a lot of people, style pages are the rewards they'll chase.

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

Yea the reason I even got into PvE was mostly because of cosmetics. I loved how the maw skin looked and later the silver skin. I ended up enjoying trials so I stuck with it, but I wouldn't have tried it if the skins weren't there. Hard to obtain cosmetics are a very strong motivator to get into activities. With that said PvP doesn't offer meaningful reward of any type and that should absolutely be addressed.

I actually agree with you that PvPers aren't understanding the mindsets of other people who play the game. There's a large group of players that fundamentally believes that games are meant for unwinding and not for competition. These types of people will never bother to enter PvP because it stresses them out. No reward will be worthwhile to them, they just don't have an interest in PvP. Due to a long list of PvP failures and lack of support, constant feature additions and changes that support the casual/cozy game experience, and the fact that ESO is an Elder Scrolls game, the game now skews heavily towards a player base with this type of mindset.

Speaking for myself, but I know a lot of other people who enjoy end game have this mentality, I have an aversion to questing, fishing, and other casual activities in ESO. At the end of the day it's too boring for me, and there's very very few things that can get me to explore a zone, do a delve, or complete a quest. If overland was challenging and felt dangerous, I would be happy to engage with it. I know a difficult overland is a dealbreaker for the people who like those activities. Similarly, a PvE or optional opt in PvP version of Cyrodiil would be a dealbreaker for most PvPers. Such a change would attract casual players though.

So if you're a PvP or endgame player, ask yourself why you don't regularly quest, explore, fish, do writs, or take part in many of the other aspects of ESO. What would it take for you to do this stuff regularly? Just remember that people have a similar aversion to PvP and they just aren't interested without somehow taking away what makes PvP fun.

ESO is a PvP game that upset it's PvP players and made a hard shift to a cozy solo RPG with social aspects. Most PvPers won't come back until the balance and performance make the game somewhat competitive again. The existing players are usually too casual to even be interested in PvP. It's just gonna keep bleeding PvPers and not gaining new ones. The new content doesn't matter.

Ingenon

TaSheen wrote: »

@tomofhyrule - I think it's because GH is the only faction locked campaign.

Then ZOS should make two identical faction locked campaigns.

Ostonoha

The last few times we were promised an update to pvp and cyro we got lets see now.

Breakable walls/bridges which if from what I heard is true even the devs wish they change back but cant.

3 outposts that are essentially pvdoor.

Promised all sorts of "weapons" like the hammer. A system similar to emperor to unlock said weapon filled with supporting deadric princes and earning their favor to wield the weapon and instead we got just a hammer spawn.

all in all I imagine every pvp is assuming whatever "update" pvp is getting is going to be underwhelming and somewhat insulting.

we really do need a new zone that is sized in proportion to the population we have today. Cyros size was fine back when it was 500v500v500. Now its essentially an empty wasteland with 2 maybe 3 fights going on. That or admit the total open world does not work and divide cyro like IC with barriers/load screens so we can up the population caps. The pop testing when we had what seemed like unlimited people was the most action and most fun iv seen in a long time even with the lag.

katanagirl1

TaSheen wrote: »

@tomofhyrule - I think it's because GH is the only faction locked campaign.

It’s the only busy campaign.

Blackreach was doable back when it was busy, even though it is not faction locked. You have a lot of players switching sides but at least there were fights.

Now Blackreach is empty except on weekends.

I don’t think we have the population to do two faction locked campaigns anymore.

tomofhyrule

I would be interested in the results if ZOS did another Cyro experiment with the current population - raise the Grey Host caps. Let's see what happens to the population of PvP zones that are not Grey Host when nobody's gotta wait in a GH queue.

We have people arguing that exclusive cosmetics (like one of the most gorgeous costumes in the game as long as you ignore the boots, and what is hands-down the best black dye in the game, and even the only three perfectly matte dyes in the game), along with exclusive titles and icons next to the character names are more enticing rewards than style pages, so if more people can get into Grey Host, does that mean more PvE players will be able to get in so they can go for Emperor, or even Legate, or some of the Battlegrounds?
...or are we just going to see tumbleweeds and crickets outside of Grey Host since all the PvPers can get into the hopping campaign?

Necrotech_Master

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

React wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

There really is no way around this - the game has been out for a decade. It is a late stage MMO and even average PVP players with years of experience will seem untouchable to new players.

The best they can do is design new PVP content around what the current veteran PVP playerbase wants, while incentivizing it in a way that exposes new players to it in the hopes that some of them might want to stick around and try PVP in general.

I will say, I don't think that everybody who loses am Xv1 to a skilled player has a "miserable experience". I've received plenty of wholesome and awed whispers after finishing off groups solo, and I've even been able to direct and assist players like that from time to time. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, experiences like that are what got me hyped on PVP way back in the day.

I'm not sure ESO has the PvP population to support that first statement...

Like you said with the way you were first brought into PvP, that first interaction against similar skilled players matter. For me it was leveling to Max vet level in Cracked Wood Cave and PvPing against others also trying to level and then gaining champion points in Imperial City sewers doing the same thing fighting other people trying to level / get tel var.

During prime time we likely have less than 1000 people PvPing in ESO. That's a scary number. We need to introduce more players into the content because if it's catered to the veterans (many of which have dropped the game for lack of PvP content) then it's going to continue to die.

And I've definitely had a mixed bag of Whispers after 1vXing. Probably half saying you're a hacker, get reported and the other half saying wow that was impressive. I always share my build and knowledge when asked, but it's less often than when I'm called a cheater and blocked. So not entirely sure about this one.

I keep seeing statements like this.

they keep lowering the pop cap to help reduce lag which is then putting a 1-2 hour queue just to get into cyro.

Then because of the server performance you crash and get kicked out of cyro (if youre lucky you avoid the login bug and can get back into cyro). Because of this people end up just giving up on the game.


Remember when they removed the pop cap and cyro was jam packed. There was literally 5 or 6 massssssive battles on the map at one time. Now it's a ghost town but we are pop locked and there is a queue.

I'd argue zos's own actions are what is making it seem like there isn't a big enough pvp population.

So if the PvP playerbase is so massive that Cyro is perpetually poplocked and there's a multi-hour queue... why are the other Cyro campaigns on one bar? Why is IC on one bar? Why are people waiting ages to get into a BG? Where are all these PvPers when there are PvP modes that are desperate for more players?

Could it be... that the PvP playerbase is actually only hyperfocused on 'Grey Host or bust?'

Again, if people wanted to do Cyro PvP and didn't want to wait for the GH queue or deal with the GH performance issues, Blackreach is right there. And yet... they don't.
Here's the current standings for PCNA Blackreach:

Mind you, none of the alliances are getting a Low Score bonus. Not even the one that's got less than half of the other two. And I know that people say "oh, well one alliance just doesn't like to capture territory since 'ew PvD' so they'd rather play Horse Riding Simulator to get to the battle on the other end of the map instead of being able to Transitus there." But I looked at each alliance to see those leaderboard AP scores, and as expected the top place for EP is still in the 7-digit range while the other two alliances have leaders over 11.5 million. This means that EP, at least, is just not interested in playing anything but Grey Host.

So if these legions of people want to PvP, why aren't they PvPing in the areas where they can? Why are they actively avoiding these other areas? Or better, why are they leaving these other areas - I remember a few months back EP did have a presence in Blackreach, so what changed?

And that also begs the question... if they raised the pop caps so more people could get into Grey Host, would that take people from other modes (like the few who actually did do something else since Grey Host was full)? And, by that same token, would opening a new PvP mode relieve some pressure on Grey Host... or empty the other modes and not affect Grey Host since we see that the current population is hyperfocused on Grey Host?

my understanding of the low score bonus is that it only activates when both the 2nd and 3rd place factions are under 50% of the score of the first place faction

so going off of your screenshot, if blue had 50,429 points or less, then both red and blue would have a low score bonus, but it wont give a low score bonus for red only if red is the only one who has a low score, its certainly not great

the low pop bonus is also pretty janky when it triggers, or when it goes away

to the OP, i dont think its gonna be any sort of makeover either

in my opinion all 3 pvp modes have their "downsides" that if mitigated would certainly help improve that pvp mode

for cyro the biggest problems are:

• low pop caps
• performance issues (this is a big one as it causes a lot of the other issues, such as the lower pop caps, and little in the ways of improvements, but i dont think there is an "easy" way for the devs to fix this one either)

for IC the biggest problems are:

• tying respawn spots on surface to district control stifles potential combat (people are really put off by double load screens if their faction controls no flags)
• tel var risk v reward (i like the risk v reward, but i can see the point others have brought up that someone who is carrying 0 tel var has 0 risk while they have all the reward if they kill their target, so they should be able to only steal up to the amount they are carrying, the dying player should still lose 50% on death, but any "excess" just goes to the void like it does when you die to NPCs)

for BGs the biggest problems are:

• lack of any kind of discernable MMR aside from "# of matches played" resulting in long-term casual players being forced to play with sweats
• lack of individual queues (this is multi-pronged problem, like with tribute there should be a "competitive" and "casual" queue, as well as potentially some ability to choose specific modes along with a "random" that gives a bonus) (basically it should be treated like dungeons: 1 single random queue with bonus rewards, individual queues for each game mode. though deathmatch i think should be its own separate queue because its a wildly different mode than the rest of the BGs, or the deathmatch could be the "competitive" queue while casual would include deathmatch and all the objective modes in the random, but not have a specific queue for deathmatch) ( this is a complex problem because splitting the queues up too much would thin out the population, but separating the tryhards and casuals might get more people to be willing to try pvp utilizing the BGs)
• lack of "custom lobbies", they have a pvp group finder but no way to set up a custom BG match, but i think the UI system is there to be able to do this

tomofhyrule

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

React wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

There really is no way around this - the game has been out for a decade. It is a late stage MMO and even average PVP players with years of experience will seem untouchable to new players.

The best they can do is design new PVP content around what the current veteran PVP playerbase wants, while incentivizing it in a way that exposes new players to it in the hopes that some of them might want to stick around and try PVP in general.

I will say, I don't think that everybody who loses am Xv1 to a skilled player has a "miserable experience". I've received plenty of wholesome and awed whispers after finishing off groups solo, and I've even been able to direct and assist players like that from time to time. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, experiences like that are what got me hyped on PVP way back in the day.

I'm not sure ESO has the PvP population to support that first statement...

Like you said with the way you were first brought into PvP, that first interaction against similar skilled players matter. For me it was leveling to Max vet level in Cracked Wood Cave and PvPing against others also trying to level and then gaining champion points in Imperial City sewers doing the same thing fighting other people trying to level / get tel var.

During prime time we likely have less than 1000 people PvPing in ESO. That's a scary number. We need to introduce more players into the content because if it's catered to the veterans (many of which have dropped the game for lack of PvP content) then it's going to continue to die.

And I've definitely had a mixed bag of Whispers after 1vXing. Probably half saying you're a hacker, get reported and the other half saying wow that was impressive. I always share my build and knowledge when asked, but it's less often than when I'm called a cheater and blocked. So not entirely sure about this one.

I keep seeing statements like this.

they keep lowering the pop cap to help reduce lag which is then putting a 1-2 hour queue just to get into cyro.

Then because of the server performance you crash and get kicked out of cyro (if youre lucky you avoid the login bug and can get back into cyro). Because of this people end up just giving up on the game.


Remember when they removed the pop cap and cyro was jam packed. There was literally 5 or 6 massssssive battles on the map at one time. Now it's a ghost town but we are pop locked and there is a queue.

I'd argue zos's own actions are what is making it seem like there isn't a big enough pvp population.

So if the PvP playerbase is so massive that Cyro is perpetually poplocked and there's a multi-hour queue... why are the other Cyro campaigns on one bar? Why is IC on one bar? Why are people waiting ages to get into a BG? Where are all these PvPers when there are PvP modes that are desperate for more players?

Could it be... that the PvP playerbase is actually only hyperfocused on 'Grey Host or bust?'

Again, if people wanted to do Cyro PvP and didn't want to wait for the GH queue or deal with the GH performance issues, Blackreach is right there. And yet... they don't.
Here's the current standings for PCNA Blackreach:

Mind you, none of the alliances are getting a Low Score bonus. Not even the one that's got less than half of the other two. And I know that people say "oh, well one alliance just doesn't like to capture territory since 'ew PvD' so they'd rather play Horse Riding Simulator to get to the battle on the other end of the map instead of being able to Transitus there." But I looked at each alliance to see those leaderboard AP scores, and as expected the top place for EP is still in the 7-digit range while the other two alliances have leaders over 11.5 million. This means that EP, at least, is just not interested in playing anything but Grey Host.

So if these legions of people want to PvP, why aren't they PvPing in the areas where they can? Why are they actively avoiding these other areas? Or better, why are they leaving these other areas - I remember a few months back EP did have a presence in Blackreach, so what changed?

And that also begs the question... if they raised the pop caps so more people could get into Grey Host, would that take people from other modes (like the few who actually did do something else since Grey Host was full)? And, by that same token, would opening a new PvP mode relieve some pressure on Grey Host... or empty the other modes and not affect Grey Host since we see that the current population is hyperfocused on Grey Host?

my understanding of the low score bonus is that it only activates when both the 2nd and 3rd place factions are under 50% of the score of the first place faction

so going off of your screenshot, if blue had 50,429 points or less, then both red and blue would have a low score bonus, but it wont give a low score bonus for red only if red is the only one who has a low score, its certainly not great

the low pop bonus is also pretty janky when it triggers, or when it goes away

Yeah, that's how I understood it too. And I really think that'd be something ZOS should look at. As it stands, there is literally no reason for a third-wheel underdog to go in to what is essentially a two-party fight. If red did have a Low Score bonus, maybe that'd get some of the EP out of the GH queue and into Blackreach to earn bonus AP, and possibly even entice smce of the AD/DC to swap to red to make it a more even match.

I get that alliance locking is favored by the PvP community, but people being unwilling to swap alliances is also what leads to this kind of thing.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

for cyro the biggest problems are:

• low pop caps
• performance issues (this is a big one as it causes a lot of the other issues, such as the lower pop caps, and little in the ways of improvements, but i dont think there is an "easy" way for the devs to fix this one either)

for IC the biggest problems are:

• tying respawn spots on surface to district control stifles potential combat (people are really put off by double load screens if their faction controls no flags)
• tel var risk v reward (i like the risk v reward, but i can see the point others have brought up that someone who is carrying 0 tel var has 0 risk while they have all the reward if they kill their target, so they should be able to only steal up to the amount they are carrying, the dying player should still lose 50% on death, but any "excess" just goes to the void like it does when you die to NPCs)

for BGs the biggest problems are:

• lack of any kind of discernable MMR aside from "# of matches played" resulting in long-term casual players being forced to play with sweats
• lack of individual queues (this is multi-pronged problem, like with tribute there should be a "competitive" and "casual" queue, as well as potentially some ability to choose specific modes along with a "random" that gives a bonus) (basically it should be treated like dungeons: 1 single random queue with bonus rewards, individual queues for each game mode. though deathmatch i think should be its own separate queue because its a wildly different mode than the rest of the BGs, or the deathmatch could be the "competitive" queue while casual would include deathmatch and all the objective modes in the random, but not have a specific queue for deathmatch) ( this is a complex problem because splitting the queues up too much would thin out the population, but separating the tryhards and casuals might get more people to be willing to try pvp utilizing the BGs)
• lack of "custom lobbies", they have a pvp group finder but no way to set up a custom BG match, but i think the UI system is there to be able to do this

A lot of these issues are things I hear a lot, mainly from people who are on the PvE side who are tired of/dislike PvP. If we really intended to get more people into PvP from PvE, then adding a handful of shinies isn't going to just magically entice them. First, we'd have to accept that a lot of people aren't going to come over at all, but there are things that could fix it for the fence-sitters.

Cyro:
The low pop thing and performance do kind of go hand-in-hand. I'm not going to let ZOS completely off the hook here, but some people do have a lot smoother performance than others. But yes, in a big fight with hundreds of effects per tick, everyone's gonna get something.

Higher pops make for more fun fights... as long as those extra people aren't adding any extra server load. Which they are. But higher pops in Grey Host also will make the pops in the other campaigns go down as well. Not everyone wants to go into the hyper-sweat campaign, so some way to encourage PvPers to favor the not-Grey Host campaigns could be useful. I'd say to fix the bonus system to encourage the three alliances to even out would be a good way to help it be a three-way fight instead of a two-way fight that leaves a third of the potential PvP population out.

IC:
Everything you said sounds great. I know plenty of people who don't do IC because of the Tel Var thing - I don't even like to have more than 300 on me at any given time. Also let us pick up the daily quests in the sewer. I'd also go as far as to say that a player who is actively interacting with a quest objective (those siege weapons in Elven Gardens) should get the immunity thing for the duration of the animation.

BG:
BGs have been on life support since they did get rid of the selectable game modes. DM and Objective should probably be separate, and I like the idea of sweaty- vs. non-sweaty-BGs as DM and Objective, but I doubt the population for non-DM is there.

If there were some encouragement to actually play the objective (read: you get more AP if you do the thing instead of kill people on repeat), then that'd help the casuals but put off the PvPers. Conversely, removing Objective games locks out a bunch of acheivements and will basically ensure casuals don't touch BGs.

But the black box that is MMR needs a serious fix. It seems that it's based on a lifetime BG winrate, despite having several different BG modes and that means a lucky streak puts you up against nothing but sweats. BG MMR, like the ToT MMR, really should reset every month. Yes, that means the sweats will start the month wiping the floor with everyone, but at least that also means that a casual who dabbles in BGs will eventually have a chance instead of figuring that they got all they could and never touching it again. This is doubly important for the group queue, since there have been times that I've sat in the group queue for 15+ minutes with a few friends, but then when we all queued solo we finally got in... some of us on the same team.

A lobby system could also be really fun for e.g. guild events. I'd imagine that would make achievements gameable, unless they wanted to say that you can only get the achieves by queueing in like they do with ToT. Perhaps that could also lead to a lobby made with fewer than 12 and you can group-finder the missing slots (who would therefore be eligible for acheives and the daily bonus)

Lumsdenml

Soarora wrote: »

We don't know what it will entail and are unable to talk about rumors. No reason to get hopes up especially when this current update was such a disappointment.

You can talk about rumors depending on the source of the rumors. Rumors that are guesses that people are talking about are fine. Rumors that come directly from something data mined, not so much

Lumsdenml

It seems that this will be BG related, which doesn't make me particularly excited since I prefer the Cyrodiil flavour PVP... But if it is an update to BG, what would be nice would be to utilize the group finder to set up customized BG games. 1v1, 2v2, 12,v12, tournaments, etc.

Necrotech_Master

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

React wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You're thinking like a PvPer: "What are great rewards that would get PvPers into PvP?" But... PvPers are already doing PvP. If you want to entice PvE players to come to PvP, you need to give them something that they want so they come over (which, as has already been established, is mostly impossible since the thing that most PvErs and casuals don't like about PvP is the existence of enemy players, without which you... really don't have PvP). And if you offer rewards that have little-to-nothing to do with the content ("Hey housing people, come do a vet trial to get a boat!" "Hey RPers, come do a vet DLC HM/speedrun/nodeath so you can walk a certain way!"), then you're making resentful players. Now I'm not gonna pretend that it never works - I got hardcore into higher level PvE because I needed that Beast personality, but I'm also not gonna pretend that my case is the norm at all. In fact, it's much more likely that people will hate the game and maybe go to buy a carry for the stuff they want, if they didn't just give up and leave (although the carry community just got hit with a major issue recently as well).

So an example of this for me is I was forced to learn how to compete (assemble groups, learn mechanics, DPS satisfactorily) in Vet Dreadsail reef with pick up groups from group finder to get the pieces (mostly perfected weapon) I needed for a PvP build (coral riptide). It took me ~20 Vet runs to get a perfected lightning staff (special shout out to the one who gave it to me) because min maxing the extra 3% crit chance mattered to me. And at the end of the day I actually had FUN doing it...

tomofhyrule wrote: »

And as you said, all that time ago, you were an inept little nightblade getting kills against equally inept players. But where's the "I'm bad at PvP and want to play against people at my own skill level so I can learn how to do better" area now? The Under50 Cyro campaign, where pro PvPers gold out gear and delete/remake characters to live there? The Under50 BGs which have even fewer people than the standard BGs? The objective BG games which most pro PvPers ignore to do DM instead? The alternate Cyro campaigns where the scores are so hideously unbalanced that it means you're usually solo going up against two ball groups? The IC, where you sneak around killing PvE mobs until someone with maxed stealth comes up and ganks you before you knew they were there?

This is one of the core problems of influencing PvP in this game. There really is NO WHERE to go for entry level PvP. Sometimes I get tossed into a Low MMR BGs and I'll go 50 and 0.... That's how big of a gap there can be in PvP. And the BG ques are so awful I'm sure entry level players don't get enough games to regularly PvP.

And Cryodiil is 70% sweaty PvPers (myself included) who will 1v10 a group a new players.

And in that scenario 1 person had fun and 10 people had a miserable experience and 1/10 of those players maybe wants to commit to getting to the skill level of that individual.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

But again, I'm not a PvPer. I don't know what'll get PvPers into more PvP. But what I do know is why I don't like PvP, and what kinds of things could be done to try to get people like me into it. In fact, I have been doing PvP to get certain things: dyes, outfit styles, the Emp costume. And I hate every second of it, even moreso now that there's pretty well no option for EP Cyro on PCNA outside of Grey Host, and I'm nowhere near sweaty enough for the main campaign. So my response to that is to... stop playing Cyro. I don't do IC at all because I can't handle the anxiety of losing Tel Var, and BGs lost their fun after I couldn't go in with friends anymore and people ignore objectives. So I will say that I'm not expecting I'm going to be touching this new mode much at all, except maybe during MYM if I want to check it out.

And it really is ashame... I stay out of Greyhost because I refuse to play a laggy version of this game. I'll just turn it off. Then blackreach's population is non-existent most times, unbalanced 90% of the time, and a lot of fun during prime time.

There really is no way around this - the game has been out for a decade. It is a late stage MMO and even average PVP players with years of experience will seem untouchable to new players.

The best they can do is design new PVP content around what the current veteran PVP playerbase wants, while incentivizing it in a way that exposes new players to it in the hopes that some of them might want to stick around and try PVP in general.

I will say, I don't think that everybody who loses am Xv1 to a skilled player has a "miserable experience". I've received plenty of wholesome and awed whispers after finishing off groups solo, and I've even been able to direct and assist players like that from time to time. Like I mentioned in an earlier comment, experiences like that are what got me hyped on PVP way back in the day.

I'm not sure ESO has the PvP population to support that first statement...

Like you said with the way you were first brought into PvP, that first interaction against similar skilled players matter. For me it was leveling to Max vet level in Cracked Wood Cave and PvPing against others also trying to level and then gaining champion points in Imperial City sewers doing the same thing fighting other people trying to level / get tel var.

During prime time we likely have less than 1000 people PvPing in ESO. That's a scary number. We need to introduce more players into the content because if it's catered to the veterans (many of which have dropped the game for lack of PvP content) then it's going to continue to die.

And I've definitely had a mixed bag of Whispers after 1vXing. Probably half saying you're a hacker, get reported and the other half saying wow that was impressive. I always share my build and knowledge when asked, but it's less often than when I'm called a cheater and blocked. So not entirely sure about this one.

I keep seeing statements like this.

they keep lowering the pop cap to help reduce lag which is then putting a 1-2 hour queue just to get into cyro.

Then because of the server performance you crash and get kicked out of cyro (if youre lucky you avoid the login bug and can get back into cyro). Because of this people end up just giving up on the game.


Remember when they removed the pop cap and cyro was jam packed. There was literally 5 or 6 massssssive battles on the map at one time. Now it's a ghost town but we are pop locked and there is a queue.

I'd argue zos's own actions are what is making it seem like there isn't a big enough pvp population.

So if the PvP playerbase is so massive that Cyro is perpetually poplocked and there's a multi-hour queue... why are the other Cyro campaigns on one bar? Why is IC on one bar? Why are people waiting ages to get into a BG? Where are all these PvPers when there are PvP modes that are desperate for more players?

Could it be... that the PvP playerbase is actually only hyperfocused on 'Grey Host or bust?'

Again, if people wanted to do Cyro PvP and didn't want to wait for the GH queue or deal with the GH performance issues, Blackreach is right there. And yet... they don't.
Here's the current standings for PCNA Blackreach:

Mind you, none of the alliances are getting a Low Score bonus. Not even the one that's got less than half of the other two. And I know that people say "oh, well one alliance just doesn't like to capture territory since 'ew PvD' so they'd rather play Horse Riding Simulator to get to the battle on the other end of the map instead of being able to Transitus there." But I looked at each alliance to see those leaderboard AP scores, and as expected the top place for EP is still in the 7-digit range while the other two alliances have leaders over 11.5 million. This means that EP, at least, is just not interested in playing anything but Grey Host.

So if these legions of people want to PvP, why aren't they PvPing in the areas where they can? Why are they actively avoiding these other areas? Or better, why are they leaving these other areas - I remember a few months back EP did have a presence in Blackreach, so what changed?

And that also begs the question... if they raised the pop caps so more people could get into Grey Host, would that take people from other modes (like the few who actually did do something else since Grey Host was full)? And, by that same token, would opening a new PvP mode relieve some pressure on Grey Host... or empty the other modes and not affect Grey Host since we see that the current population is hyperfocused on Grey Host?

my understanding of the low score bonus is that it only activates when both the 2nd and 3rd place factions are under 50% of the score of the first place faction

so going off of your screenshot, if blue had 50,429 points or less, then both red and blue would have a low score bonus, but it wont give a low score bonus for red only if red is the only one who has a low score, its certainly not great

the low pop bonus is also pretty janky when it triggers, or when it goes away

Yeah, that's how I understood it too. And I really think that'd be something ZOS should look at. As it stands, there is literally no reason for a third-wheel underdog to go in to what is essentially a two-party fight. If red did have a Low Score bonus, maybe that'd get some of the EP out of the GH queue and into Blackreach to earn bonus AP, and possibly even entice smce of the AD/DC to swap to red to make it a more even match.

I get that alliance locking is favored by the PvP community, but people being unwilling to swap alliances is also what leads to this kind of thing.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

for cyro the biggest problems are:

• low pop caps
• performance issues (this is a big one as it causes a lot of the other issues, such as the lower pop caps, and little in the ways of improvements, but i dont think there is an "easy" way for the devs to fix this one either)

for IC the biggest problems are:

• tying respawn spots on surface to district control stifles potential combat (people are really put off by double load screens if their faction controls no flags)
• tel var risk v reward (i like the risk v reward, but i can see the point others have brought up that someone who is carrying 0 tel var has 0 risk while they have all the reward if they kill their target, so they should be able to only steal up to the amount they are carrying, the dying player should still lose 50% on death, but any "excess" just goes to the void like it does when you die to NPCs)

for BGs the biggest problems are:

• lack of any kind of discernable MMR aside from "# of matches played" resulting in long-term casual players being forced to play with sweats
• lack of individual queues (this is multi-pronged problem, like with tribute there should be a "competitive" and "casual" queue, as well as potentially some ability to choose specific modes along with a "random" that gives a bonus) (basically it should be treated like dungeons: 1 single random queue with bonus rewards, individual queues for each game mode. though deathmatch i think should be its own separate queue because its a wildly different mode than the rest of the BGs, or the deathmatch could be the "competitive" queue while casual would include deathmatch and all the objective modes in the random, but not have a specific queue for deathmatch) ( this is a complex problem because splitting the queues up too much would thin out the population, but separating the tryhards and casuals might get more people to be willing to try pvp utilizing the BGs)
• lack of "custom lobbies", they have a pvp group finder but no way to set up a custom BG match, but i think the UI system is there to be able to do this

A lot of these issues are things I hear a lot, mainly from people who are on the PvE side who are tired of/dislike PvP. If we really intended to get more people into PvP from PvE, then adding a handful of shinies isn't going to just magically entice them. First, we'd have to accept that a lot of people aren't going to come over at all, but there are things that could fix it for the fence-sitters.

Cyro:
The low pop thing and performance do kind of go hand-in-hand. I'm not going to let ZOS completely off the hook here, but some people do have a lot smoother performance than others. But yes, in a big fight with hundreds of effects per tick, everyone's gonna get something.

Higher pops make for more fun fights... as long as those extra people aren't adding any extra server load. Which they are. But higher pops in Grey Host also will make the pops in the other campaigns go down as well. Not everyone wants to go into the hyper-sweat campaign, so some way to encourage PvPers to favor the not-Grey Host campaigns could be useful. I'd say to fix the bonus system to encourage the three alliances to even out would be a good way to help it be a three-way fight instead of a two-way fight that leaves a third of the potential PvP population out.

IC:
Everything you said sounds great. I know plenty of people who don't do IC because of the Tel Var thing - I don't even like to have more than 300 on me at any given time. Also let us pick up the daily quests in the sewer. I'd also go as far as to say that a player who is actively interacting with a quest objective (those siege weapons in Elven Gardens) should get the immunity thing for the duration of the animation.

BG:
BGs have been on life support since they did get rid of the selectable game modes. DM and Objective should probably be separate, and I like the idea of sweaty- vs. non-sweaty-BGs as DM and Objective, but I doubt the population for non-DM is there.

If there were some encouragement to actually play the objective (read: you get more AP if you do the thing instead of kill people on repeat), then that'd help the casuals but put off the PvPers. Conversely, removing Objective games locks out a bunch of acheivements and will basically ensure casuals don't touch BGs.

But the black box that is MMR needs a serious fix. It seems that it's based on a lifetime BG winrate, despite having several different BG modes and that means a lucky streak puts you up against nothing but sweats. BG MMR, like the ToT MMR, really should reset every month. Yes, that means the sweats will start the month wiping the floor with everyone, but at least that also means that a casual who dabbles in BGs will eventually have a chance instead of figuring that they got all they could and never touching it again. This is doubly important for the group queue, since there have been times that I've sat in the group queue for 15+ minutes with a few friends, but then when we all queued solo we finally got in... some of us on the same team.

A lobby system could also be really fun for e.g. guild events. I'd imagine that would make achievements gameable, unless they wanted to say that you can only get the achieves by queueing in like they do with ToT. Perhaps that could also lead to a lobby made with fewer than 12 and you can group-finder the missing slots (who would therefore be eligible for acheives and the daily bonus)

for IC i would agree being able to pick up all the quests in the base would be a plus too, though since you can only get 1 siege of cyro merit a day, i dont really see a reason to pick up multiples a vast majority of the time. i also think people read too much into tel var, you could get more just by farming in the sewers near the base, which is significantly more safe than the surface, going to the surface is basically asking for pvp

for BGs, the MMR is not based on winrate at all, actually has nothing to do with winrate, its based on your cumulative medal score, you get medal score purely by participating so even if your team comes in 3rd, if you did anything at all during the match then your medal score (and in essence your MMR) would go up

honestly i think the MMR for tribute is what should be in place for BGs, and the current MMR for BGs should be in place for tribute

getting reduced score and going into a lower tier bracket would make sense for BGs, for tribute all the negative points right now do is just create a lot of extra hassle trying to get to the higher ranks, i still havent hit rubedite rank in tribute for the achievements yet because im not going to play matches if i have the chance to lose pts on a match, so i dont even participate really in the ranked tribute

i dont play BGs much anymore because ive been around since BGs released, and even though those rankings to get reset periodically, a lot of my toons only get matched with people who are sweats and tryhards

Wuduwasa13

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

Your lack of pvp engagement shines through here.

What we all want is a breath of life cast over Cyrodil.

For me personally that would include things such as:

New siege weapons such as locomotive siege towers that can hold groups of players to attack sections of a keep wall or to allow those inside to hop over it.

Updated keeps, give us slaughter fish infested moats and drawbridges across!

Perhaps even a new daedric artefact to rival volundrung, something that heals or buffs groups & can be released on the same schedule as a way to mitigate some of the insane dmg volundrung does & to prolong those enormous zerg v zerg artefact battles.

IC could have new patrolling horrors that actively hunt you down when you’re in the zone, new incursion style attacks from daedric abominations & packs of hungers etc. Just a generally more horrifying & threatening feel to a city that is besieged & ruined by chaos.

Just something for the main pvp & not the little utilised BG’s.

StarOfElyon

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I do not even play PVP and I am excited to learn about the complete PVP Makeover that may be coming! I actually may try PVP if it's a really cool update!

Go ZOS!!

I don't have any reason to get my hopes up.