Nerf Hardened Ward POLL VOTE

VinnyGambini

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

katorga wrote: »

Assuming the same effective spell power (damage + max resource), my other classes' burst heals are generally the same size as my Sorc's shield+heal value. Seems balanced to me. I play NB most right now, and the tooltip for Offering is within 800 of the combined shield+heal tooltip on my Hardened Ward....same sets on both and roughly the same stats on both toons.

In fact, I kinda expect ZOS to buff Arcanist wards to function the same way, removing the crux mechanic.

Oh yeah? Does other classes have streak as well? Does other classes have 2 hard hitting RANGED abilities as well?
And that is exactly the problem.

Sorc is supposed to be squishy, high dmg, high mobility. But now its godlike dmg, godlike survival and high mobility. Truly 3 tiers above S tier.

Galeriano2

VinnyGambini wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Assuming the same effective spell power (damage + max resource), my other classes' burst heals are generally the same size as my Sorc's shield+heal value. Seems balanced to me. I play NB most right now, and the tooltip for Offering is within 800 of the combined shield+heal tooltip on my Hardened Ward....same sets on both and roughly the same stats on both toons.

In fact, I kinda expect ZOS to buff Arcanist wards to function the same way, removing the crux mechanic.

Oh yeah? Does other classes have streak as well? Does other classes have 2 hard hitting RANGED abilities as well?
And that is exactly the problem.

Sorc is supposed to be squishy, high dmg, high mobility. But now its godlike dmg, godlike survival and high mobility. Truly 3 tiers above S tier.

Does the other classes also have a raming cost increase on their core mobility/defense/control ability? Does the other classes have 1 sec cast time on their core sustain ability? We can also go and start asking rhetorical questions starting with "does sorc have" and then naming every unique and strong features of other classes. Complaining what sorc have that other's don't is pointless, since same rule can be applied to pretty much every class.

Complaining about everything that sorc have now is blowing things out of proportion. There wasn't massive complaining about streak or "2 hard hitting RANGED abilities" before shield buff. If anything there wasn't much complaining about magsorc in particular and ranged, shield based magsorc was considered as pretty mediocre playstyle. Let's adress elephant in the room, not try to kill everything that is strong about specific class kit. There are actually 2 elephants in the room in terms of magsorc. One is being overbuffed state of hardened ward especially when combined with bastion CP but the other is that magsorc's kit without that overperforming defenses that hardened changes brought, quickly falls apart and starts underperforming.

VinnyGambini

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Galeriano2 wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Assuming the same effective spell power (damage + max resource), my other classes' burst heals are generally the same size as my Sorc's shield+heal value. Seems balanced to me. I play NB most right now, and the tooltip for Offering is within 800 of the combined shield+heal tooltip on my Hardened Ward....same sets on both and roughly the same stats on both toons.

In fact, I kinda expect ZOS to buff Arcanist wards to function the same way, removing the crux mechanic.

Oh yeah? Does other classes have streak as well? Does other classes have 2 hard hitting RANGED abilities as well?
And that is exactly the problem.

Sorc is supposed to be squishy, high dmg, high mobility. But now its godlike dmg, godlike survival and high mobility. Truly 3 tiers above S tier.

Does the other classes also have a raming cost increase on their core mobility/defense/control ability? Does the other classes have 1 sec cast time on their core sustain ability? We can also go and start asking rhetorical questions starting with "does sorc have" and then naming every unique and strong features of other classes. Complaining what sorc have that other's don't is pointless, since same rule can be applied to pretty much every class.

Complaining about everything that sorc have now is blowing things out of proportion. There wasn't massive complaining about streak or "2 hard hitting RANGED abilities" before shield buff. If anything there wasn't much complaining about magsorc in particular and ranged, shield based magsorc was considered as pretty mediocre playstyle. Let's adress elephant in the room, not try to kill everything that is strong about specific class kit. There are actually 2 elephants in the room in terms of magsorc. One is being overbuffed state of hardened ward especially when combined with bastion CP but the other is that magsorc's kit without that overperforming defenses that hardened changes brought, quickly falls apart and starts underperforming.

Facts about sorc:

1. It can tank up to 9k dps in pvp - proven by streamers.
2. It can deal up to 8k dps in pvp - again proven by streamers
3. It is the class with the best mobility

Before ward buff, point 1 was not the case. I dont really need to go details about every single skill to see that sorc is currently strongest class in pvp.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

VinnyGambini wrote: »

1. It can tank up to 9k dps in pvp - proven by streamers.
2. It can deal up to 8k dps in pvp - again proven by streamers
3. It is the class with the best mobility

And in case anyone was wondering what those numbers mean, 8-9k dps what an elite dueler does, so that's like 3-5 randoms worth of damage in Cyro that even a mid Sorc DD can just straight up face tank just with Ward alone, while having the best mobility in the game and the best ranged offensive kit in the game.

Meanwhile, Arcanist has the worst mobility and worst offensive toolkit in PvP, and people are still trying to act like it's somehow on Sorc's level. It's not even close. Impervious can't even spam heal you to full like Ward can.

FriedEggSandwich

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

In one of the other threads about this I heard the argument that sorc needs a heal on the ward, because prior to this ward was not taking you out of execute range, therefore meaning the ward took execute damage and became "useless". Imo every player should be panicking in execute range, and nobody should have a one-button counter to it. There is already essentially a one-button counter to execute range: dodgeroll.

I feel like a sorc in execute range should be spamming ward, while draining their stam pool dodgerolling, while streaking to safety and taking other actions (like pressing a dedicated heal skill) to bring them out of execute range.

I'm aware that this wouldn't counter jesus-beam. But sorcs have access to a couple of other counters to this; streaking out of range of it (the weakest counter), crushing shock, or defensive rune (which functions as a semi-passive ranged interrupt for jesus-beam, among other things). I realise that none of those are particularly robust counters (who's got room for defensive rune?), but I'm going to suggest that it's ok for jesus-beam to sometimes be a hard counter to a warding sorc. Sorcs should be expecting death from things other than just a ball-group or zerg.

In my memory ward has had 3 significant direct buffs, and one significant direct nerf. At release, ward could not be recast before its duration had run out. Recasting before the timer had run down would refresh the duration but not the ward strength, and this was a big issue and made ward almost usless in combat. So the first significant buff to ward was when it was made recastable before the timer had run down. Essentially it was made spammable, and the sorc was born.

Then we had the first significant nerf, which was to reduce the duration down from 20s to 6s. Iirc this was done to address shield-stacking; it takes 3 GCDs to cast hardned, healing and harness magicka, meaning after that you'd only have 3s left of stacked wards. This was an effective nerf to shield-stacking, but was also a very difficult change to get used to, for me personally. It meant that the ward could now only be used reactively.

The second significant buff was wards gaining resistances. I asked for this buff, and loved it when it arrived, and still do. It enabled heavy armour magsorcs to be viable along side light armour magsorcs. This mechanic has since had an indirect buff when bound aegis got buffed, but I still think it's fine. But this mechanic was most likely over-tuned from the start, because undeath also became active on the ward. I feel like resistances applying to wards wouldn't have been as strong if not for this. And if anything is changed about this then I feel like that should be addressed first, even with the undeath nerf.

The mechanic did kind of get an indirect nerf when the armour passives were overhauled (HA passives were op for a while). I could go into more detail about why I think wards should have resistances, but this is already a wall of text (sorry about that).

And the 3rd significant buff was the heal being added. In another thread I explained why I thought this was too much; ward is already an instant, on demand extension to the health pool, with resistances. And I explained above that I think that sorcs should have to work for a living when in execute range, as every player should imo.

So I think that this last significant buff was a step too far, especially when combined with the changes the scribing system has brought. I also agree with Jsmalls that the current level of scaling is too much. I wouldn't want all of these things nerfed in the same patch though, nerf one, see how it goes and then address the other. But I think that the heal should be addressed first, if only because it was the last to be introduced. (edit: I just remembered that the scribing system is newer than the ward heal)

If ward got nerfed to the point where it then needed a slight buff (which is possible), personally I would quite like to see a slight extension to the duration, from 6s to 8s maybe. This would allow the ward to be used more proactively, instead of just reactively. But I realise that this would risk re-enabling shield-stacking. Bastion could also be tweaked to either buff or nerf ward, although this would affect all players. Also, as I mentioned in another thread, I would be open to sorcs getting some more reliable (non crit-dependant) passive heals in pvp. But I have no idea how this would work and be balanced with crit surge. Maybe the scribing system could come up with a solution to this in the future.

Galeriano2

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Assuming the same effective spell power (damage + max resource), my other classes' burst heals are generally the same size as my Sorc's shield+heal value. Seems balanced to me. I play NB most right now, and the tooltip for Offering is within 800 of the combined shield+heal tooltip on my Hardened Ward....same sets on both and roughly the same stats on both toons.

In fact, I kinda expect ZOS to buff Arcanist wards to function the same way, removing the crux mechanic.

Oh yeah? Does other classes have streak as well? Does other classes have 2 hard hitting RANGED abilities as well?
And that is exactly the problem.

Sorc is supposed to be squishy, high dmg, high mobility. But now its godlike dmg, godlike survival and high mobility. Truly 3 tiers above S tier.

Does the other classes also have a raming cost increase on their core mobility/defense/control ability? Does the other classes have 1 sec cast time on their core sustain ability? We can also go and start asking rhetorical questions starting with "does sorc have" and then naming every unique and strong features of other classes. Complaining what sorc have that other's don't is pointless, since same rule can be applied to pretty much every class.

Complaining about everything that sorc have now is blowing things out of proportion. There wasn't massive complaining about streak or "2 hard hitting RANGED abilities" before shield buff. If anything there wasn't much complaining about magsorc in particular and ranged, shield based magsorc was considered as pretty mediocre playstyle. Let's adress elephant in the room, not try to kill everything that is strong about specific class kit. There are actually 2 elephants in the room in terms of magsorc. One is being overbuffed state of hardened ward especially when combined with bastion CP but the other is that magsorc's kit without that overperforming defenses that hardened changes brought, quickly falls apart and starts underperforming.

Facts about sorc:

1. It can tank up to 9k dps in pvp - proven by streamers.
2. It can deal up to 8k dps in pvp - again proven by streamers
3. It is the class with the best mobility

Before ward buff, point 1 was not the case. I dont really need to go details about every single skill to see that sorc is currently strongest class in pvp.

And? How is any of the mentioned things remotely connected to what I sad?

These "facts" are just informations that lack the context and have nothing to do with what I said. Like for example yeah sure sorc can take 9k DPS in a duel area because his dmg reductions and dmg avoidance are so low that he will be taking the highest numerical beating and his defenses reflect that. Throwing 9k without a context is quite misleading. The same build that performed this 9k on sorc will be doing much less on other classes because these classes will be better at utilizing block, dodge, invisibility etc and will have better dmg reductions. Performing 9k DPS on a DK enemy player for example is like perfoming 12k+ on a sorc. As for 8k DPS performed by sorc basically every class can create a setup that can put out that much DPS on enemy player when enemy player is behaving like target dummy which I assume is what You're describing. Oh and btw using "proven by streamers" as source of validity really doesn't mean much.

Before ward buff all 3 points were either not truth or situationally truth which is why magsorc was considered as very mediocre. He wouldn;t be if only one of these 3 points would be different. You couldn't survive 9k DPS and You weren't able to perform 8k on enemy because Your defenses were dropping so quick that You had to keep them up way too extensively which was heavily impacting dmg output and also mobility. That is the core issue about whole magsorc toolkit.

bladenick

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Galeriano2 wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Assuming the same effective spell power (damage + max resource), my other classes' burst heals are generally the same size as my Sorc's shield+heal value. Seems balanced to me. I play NB most right now, and the tooltip for Offering is within 800 of the combined shield+heal tooltip on my Hardened Ward....same sets on both and roughly the same stats on both toons.

In fact, I kinda expect ZOS to buff Arcanist wards to function the same way, removing the crux mechanic.

Oh yeah? Does other classes have streak as well? Does other classes have 2 hard hitting RANGED abilities as well?
And that is exactly the problem.

Sorc is supposed to be squishy, high dmg, high mobility. But now its godlike dmg, godlike survival and high mobility. Truly 3 tiers above S tier.

Does the other classes also have a raming cost increase on their core mobility/defense/control ability? Does the other classes have 1 sec cast time on their core sustain ability? We can also go and start asking rhetorical questions starting with "does sorc have" and then naming every unique and strong features of other classes. Complaining what sorc have that other's don't is pointless, since same rule can be applied to pretty much every class.

Complaining about everything that sorc have now is blowing things out of proportion. There wasn't massive complaining about streak or "2 hard hitting RANGED abilities" before shield buff. If anything there wasn't much complaining about magsorc in particular and ranged, shield based magsorc was considered as pretty mediocre playstyle. Let's adress elephant in the room, not try to kill everything that is strong about specific class kit. There are actually 2 elephants in the room in terms of magsorc. One is being overbuffed state of hardened ward especially when combined with bastion CP but the other is that magsorc's kit without that overperforming defenses that hardened changes brought, quickly falls apart and starts underperforming.

Facts about sorc:

1. It can tank up to 9k dps in pvp - proven by streamers.
2. It can deal up to 8k dps in pvp - again proven by streamers
3. It is the class with the best mobility

Before ward buff, point 1 was not the case. I dont really need to go details about every single skill to see that sorc is currently strongest class in pvp.

And? How is any of the mentioned things remotely connected to what I sad?

These "facts" are just informations that lack the context and have nothing to do with what I said. Like for example yeah sure sorc can take 9k DPS in a duel area because his dmg reductions and dmg avoidance are so low that he will be taking the highest numerical beating and his defenses reflect that. Throwing 9k without a context is quite misleading. The same build that performed this 9k on sorc will be doing much less on other classes because these classes will be better at utilizing block, dodge, invisibility etc and will have better dmg reductions. Performing 9k DPS on a DK enemy player for example is like perfoming 12k+ on a sorc. As for 8k DPS performed by sorc basically every class can create a setup that can put out that much DPS on enemy player when enemy player is behaving like target dummy which I assume is what You're describing. Oh and btw using "proven by streamers" as source of validity really doesn't mean much.

Before ward buff all 3 points were either not truth or situationally truth which is why magsorc was considered as very mediocre. He wouldn;t be if only one of these 3 points would be different. You couldn't survive 9k DPS and You weren't able to perform 8k on enemy because Your defenses were dropping so quick that You had to keep them up way too extensively which was heavily impacting dmg output and also mobility. That is the core issue about whole magsorc toolkit.

It unfair for other class get tank build which cannot do dps, also unfair for other class try to do damage build which cannot tanker, the Sorc could do the tanker Dps plus super mobility is too OP

10k+ shield + instant healing, it means the need at least output 20k Dmg instantly to kill a mag sorc , if not second ward coming, it not PVP , it immortal

Galeriano2

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

In one of the other threads about this I heard the argument that sorc needs a heal on the ward, because prior to this ward was not taking you out of execute range, therefore meaning the ward took execute damage and became "useless". Imo every player should be panicking in execute range, and nobody should have a one-button counter to it. There is already essentially a one-button counter to execute range: dodgeroll.

I feel like a sorc in execute range should be spamming ward, while draining their stam pool dodgerolling, while streaking to safety and taking other actions (like pressing a dedicated heal skill) to bring them out of execute range.

I'm aware that this wouldn't counter jesus-beam. But sorcs have access to a couple of other counters to this; streaking out of range of it (the weakest counter), crushing shock, or defensive rune (which functions as a semi-passive ranged interrupt for jesus-beam, among other things). I realise that none of those are particularly robust counters (who's got room for defensive rune?), but I'm going to suggest that it's ok for jesus-beam to sometimes be a hard counter to a warding sorc. Sorcs should be expecting death from things other than just a ball-group or zerg.

In my memory ward has had 3 significant direct buffs, and one significant direct nerf. At release, ward could not be recast before its duration had run out. Recasting before the timer had run down would refresh the duration but not the ward strength, and this was a big issue and made ward almost usless in combat. So the first significant buff to ward was when it was made recastable before the timer had run down. Essentially it was made spammable, and the sorc was born.

Then we had the first significant nerf, which was to reduce the duration down from 20s to 6s. Iirc this was done to address shield-stacking; it takes 3 GCDs to cast hardned, healing and harness magicka, meaning after that you'd only have 3s left of stacked wards. This was an effective nerf to shield-stacking, but was also a very difficult change to get used to, for me personally. It meant that the ward could now only be used reactively.

The second significant buff was wards gaining resistances. I asked for this buff, and loved it when it arrived, and still do. It enabled heavy armour magsorcs to be viable along side light armour magsorcs. This mechanic has since had an indirect buff when bound aegis got buffed, but I still think it's fine. But this mechanic was most likely over-tuned from the start, because undeath also became active on the ward. I feel like resistances applying to wards wouldn't have been as strong if not for this. And if anything is changed about this then I feel like that should be addressed first, even with the undeath nerf.

The mechanic did kind of get an indirect nerf when the armour passives were overhauled (HA passives were op for a while). I could go into more detail about why I think wards should have resistances, but this is already a wall of text (sorry about that).

And the 3rd significant buff was the heal being added. In another thread I explained why I thought this was too much; ward is already an instant, on demand extension to the health pool, with resistances. And I explained above that I think that sorcs should have to work for a living when in execute range, as every player should imo.

So I think that this last significant buff was a step too far, especially when combined with the changes the scribing system has brought. I also agree with Jsmalls that the current level of scaling is too much. I wouldn't want all of these things nerfed in the same patch though, nerf one, see how it goes and then address the other. But I think that the heal should be addressed first, if only because it was the last to be introduced. (edit: I just remembered that the scribing system is newer than the ward heal)

If ward got nerfed to the point where it then needed a slight buff (which is possible), personally I would quite like to see a slight extension to the duration, from 6s to 8s maybe. This would allow the ward to be used more proactively, instead of just reactively. But I realise that this would risk re-enabling shield-stacking. Bastion could also be tweaked to either buff or nerf ward, although this would affect all players. Also, as I mentioned in another thread, I would be open to sorcs getting some more reliable (non crit-dependant) passive heals in pvp. But I have no idea how this would work and be balanced with crit surge. Maybe the scribing system could come up with a solution to this in the future.

There is few missing points and some mistakes in Your descritpion of wards history.

First of all You wrote "ward could not be recast before its duration had run out" which is quite misleading phrase. You could cast it before its duration run out and You could cast it before shield run out due to dmg taken. You were just not getting the full shield value as You pointed out later.

When shields started to share users resistances it was actually considered as quite significant nerf. it was like that because prior to this change shields had 0 resists but crit immunity meaning that as long as someone had shield applied he couldn't take any crit damage which at that time was far superior to shields sharing user's resistances. Giving resistances to shields was even discussed on forum before it happened as one of the methods to tone shields strenght down.

You also forgot to mention max HP cap added to shields which was also quite significant nerf that shaped future direction of sorc's setup choices. Before this change it was quite common to see sorcs shields having higher value than their actuall HP.

There was also a nerf in early days of ESO in regards to how shields are being affected by dmg when they're stacked.

Honorable mention go to ZoS trying to add cast times on shields, an idea they had to abandon during PTS testing due to a massive community backlash and to ZoS adding shielbreaker set in its original version. They never tried to butcher any other setup as much as sorcs with shield.

In general hardened ward throughout the years was nerfed. I would go as far as saying that today's hardened ward is way weaker than it was in its prime.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I would go as far as saying that today's hardened ward is way weaker than it was in its prime.

Modern MagSorc runs Hardened + passive slot, where classic MagSorc had to stack 2 shields.

Iriidius

Keep Ward how it is, talentless

Modern MagSorc can't run 2 shields effektively because they have only 6 seconds duration where classic magsorc had 20 seconds duration.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

I would go as far as saying that today's hardened ward is way weaker than it was in its prime.

Modern MagSorc runs Hardened + passive slot, where classic MagSorc had to stack 2 shields.

And still old hardened ward would be way stronger than current one. Like we are talking 20k shield (because this is the value it would get in today's standards) lasting for 20 seconds with immunity to crit dmg. Since crit damage have now a cap of 125% that immunity basically equals to having almost 8,3k crit resist while shield is active. That's way stronger than having like 20-30k resistances that enemy will penetrate for 10-20k+ anyway. Some people would obviously choose to run with 2 shields to reach combined like 30-35k shield value.

Fact that sorcs were using 2 shields where now they use one doesn't mean that current hardened is stronger than it was in previous iterration. Sorc started to use 1 shield quite some time ago even before ZoS added a heal to it because direction of the game forced him to it

Sorc didn't "had to" use 2 shields he choosed to do it because it was the most effective way since it was allowing to keep like 20k HP underneath shields with no investment into crit resist which allowed to invest into something else. Sorc was basically a glass cannon underneath shields with zero investments into survivability. Also harness magicka was OP with the amount of magicka it was restoring. Good sorcs were able to survive with just hardened though.

The moment shields lost crit resist and started to copy player's resistances the usage of 2 shields started to diminish.

Aiden_Ayzaria

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

I'm playing magsorc a lot in PvP as I love the thematic of the class (more a melee build with Blood for blood as spammable tho) and I've been getting pretty bored since hardened got buffed. I arrived to a point I've put myself a rule of "I don't go over 35k max mag" to have a reasonable ward but without it being an auto carry button able to face tank most things. This way I'm having way more pleasure, I need to roll dodge and block way more than a classic magsorc and yes I also die more but I find it way more engaging.

As for the topic of the ward balance itself, I feel no spell in the game should pair both a shield and heal. A shield should be preemptive, a burst heal should be reactive. If you want both, you should slot both but you shouldn't have the whole package in one GCD. I could understand when sorc didn't have access to a decent burst heal but now that we have scribing, it's even less defendable.

bladenick

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Aiden_Ayzaria wrote: »

I'm playing magsorc a lot in PvP as I love the thematic of the class (more a melee build with Blood for blood as spammable tho) and I've been getting pretty bored since hardened got buffed. I arrived to a point I've put myself a rule of "I don't go over 35k max mag" to have a reasonable ward but without it being an auto carry button able to face tank most things. This way I'm having way more pleasure, I need to roll dodge and block way more than a classic magsorc and yes I also die more but I find it way more engaging.

As for the topic of the ward balance itself, I feel no spell in the game should pair both a shield and heal. A shield should be preemptive, a burst heal should be reactive. If you want both, you should slot both but you shouldn't have the whole package in one GCD. I could understand when sorc didn't have access to a decent burst heal but now that we have scribing, it's even less defendable.

There many sroc running proper build with harden ward, they are totally Tanker and don’t dead, still can do 2 digit kills in each BG round

You don’t do best hardenward, then you will overwhelming by those immortal magsorc

Afterip

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

My resistant flesh heal me ~6.5k(9.5k crit) and after heal ill get drawback "minor defile". So when i see sorcs who shielded themsels ~13k and healed ~4k by one skill and no drawback i get a bit frustrated.

WuffyCerulei

Keep Ward how it is, talentless

I’m just still astounded on how people, for years mind you, complained about how non-pet sorcerers had terrible survivability as they lacked any decent single-target/self heals outside of crit surge and the interruptible Dark Deal+morphs. But the moment they get maybe a 3k burst self heal (with Battle Spirit on) through a shield, it’s suddenly the worst thing to happen. Yeah, sorcs hit hard from afar. They’ve been doing it for years. Same with them being pretty damn mobile with Streak. Those things haven’t changed, aside from a lil bit more heals. Not saying you have to like sorcs, they are annoying to fight. But let’s not act like they’re the end-all-be-all class that solely defines PVP when there’s things like hard-to-kill hard-hitting Wardens and whatnot out there.
The ward heal isn’t just good for pvpers either. There’s a whole other side of the game, aka PVE, who has only benefitted from having some survivability when not running pets.

divnyi

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I’m just still astounded on how people, for years mind you, complained about how non-pet sorcerers had terrible survivability as they lacked any decent single-target/self heals outside of crit surge and the interruptible Dark Deal+morphs. But the moment they get maybe a 3k burst self heal (with Battle Spirit on) through a shield, it’s suddenly the worst thing to happen.

You have scribing heal now, but that's not what people are complaining about, isn't it?

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

1. It can tank up to 9k dps in pvp - proven by streamers.
2. It can deal up to 8k dps in pvp - again proven by streamers
3. It is the class with the best mobility

And in case anyone was wondering what those numbers mean, 8-9k dps what an elite dueler does, so that's like 3-5 randoms worth of damage in Cyro that even a mid Sorc DD can just straight up face tank just with Ward alone, while having the best mobility in the game and the best ranged offensive kit in the game.

Meanwhile, Arcanist has the worst mobility and worst offensive toolkit in PvP, and people are still trying to act like it's somehow on Sorc's level. It's not even close. Impervious can't even spam heal you to full like Ward can.

To be fair and full disclosure, Arc can m

divnyi wrote: »

.

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I’m just still astounded on how people, for years mind you, complained about how non-pet sorcerers had terrible survivability as they lacked any decent single-target/self heals outside of crit surge and the interruptible Dark Deal+morphs. But the moment they get maybe a 3k burst self heal (with Battle Spirit on) through a shield, it’s suddenly the worst thing to happen.

You have scribing heal now, but that's not what people are complaining about, isn't it?

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for? People seem to say you have the scribing skill now as if it just comes with the game, it doesn't. And it's not really something that can just be thrown out there so casually in my opinion.

Tommy_The_Gun

I think that Sorc needs to stay overpowered... Cuz otherwise they will complain about other thing being too strong lol

divnyi

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

Bushido2513

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

I have 19 characters, fully leveled, most weapon, class, guild, world, etc skills unlocked with morphs on each. I have several mythics and a lot of sticker book pieces from arenas, trials, overland, etc. I say that to say that at this point I've grinded all I care to in the game so any minute I'm not just enjoying all I've already grinded for, it's a grind to me. That's relative to each person but if it's multiple hours or even a day, that's a grind for me

And then I need to pay for the privilege to do so just so that I can see how it feels and if it creates a spec that I want to run? This doesn't sound like something that should be compared to harden ward so easily as it's not even freely available to test or for everyone to use. If it was maybe we would see a difference in sorc builds, maybe not.

I just don't see how people are acting like hey we have access to this now as if it's free. There's lots of things I have access to but they aren't free

TechMaybeHic

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

I just can't stand the idea that we homogenize all the classes to procs and scribbles. I played my DK for the first time since before the corrosive armor meta, just because I ran nearly all DK skills. I died probably 3 times more than I would on my sorc, but I had fun melee and having the impact of leap and breath and fire.

divnyi

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Bushido2513 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

I have 19 characters, fully leveled, most weapon, class, guild, world, etc skills unlocked with morphs on each.

You need to do full quest once and then you can just buy inks on the market and do the intro quest, which takes ~5 minutes.
I mean really. Unless you want something that is hidden behind dailies, opening the scribing on every char is just not an issue.

Idinuse

Keep Ward how it is, talentless

Exactly!! Facetanking, aka "talentless" - according to the polll, is ONLY for Arcanists, DKs, NBs and Templars ffs! wHO dO sOrC PLaYeRs tHiNk tHey aRe?! Arcanists and DKs?

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I just can't stand the idea that we homogenize all the classes to procs and scribbles. I played my DK for the first time since before the corrosive armor meta, just because I ran nearly all DK skills. I died probably 3 times more than I would on my sorc, but I had fun melee and having the impact of leap and breath and fire.

To be fair that's not exactly a good comparison. A DK could run all DK skills and survive just the same as a sorc depending on build and playstyle.

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

I have 19 characters, fully leveled, most weapon, class, guild, world, etc skills unlocked with morphs on each.

You need to do full quest once and then you can just buy inks on the market and do the intro quest, which takes ~5 minutes.
I mean really. Unless you want something that is hidden behind dailies, opening the scribing on every char is just not an issue.

To be fair I am only going by what friends have told me when they did it and they could be going for something that requires more time or even several things.

So I would say that grind is just a relative thing and that to me this would still count as that but I understand not everyone is as burned out as I am on these things.

I support the evolution of the game and having new things. I'm just saying people throw scribing around like it's freely available in the same way as ward is and that's not true especially when you get into specific configurations you might try or react to try.

I think ward needs balance but I'm also glad that it currently stands up to players who do use scribing fairly well.

AvidNecro

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Idinuse wrote: »

Exactly!! Facetanking, aka "talentless" - according to the polll, is ONLY for Arcanists, DKs, NBs and Templars ffs! wHO dO sOrC PLaYeRs tHiNk tHey aRe?! Arcanists and DKs?

Noticed you left necro out... I know your kind.

TechMaybeHic

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I just can't stand the idea that we homogenize all the classes to procs and scribbles. I played my DK for the first time since before the corrosive armor meta, just because I ran nearly all DK skills. I died probably 3 times more than I would on my sorc, but I had fun melee and having the impact of leap and breath and fire.

To be fair that's not exactly a good comparison. A DK could run all DK skills and survive just the same as a sorc depending on build and playstyle.

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

I have 19 characters, fully leveled, most weapon, class, guild, world, etc skills unlocked with morphs on each.

You need to do full quest once and then you can just buy inks on the market and do the intro quest, which takes ~5 minutes.
I mean really. Unless you want something that is hidden behind dailies, opening the scribing on every char is just not an issue.

To be fair I am only going by what friends have told me when they did it and they could be going for something that requires more time or even several things.

So I would say that grind is just a relative thing and that to me this would still count as that but I understand not everyone is as burned out as I am on these things.

I support the evolution of the game and having new things. I'm just saying people throw scribing around like it's freely available in the same way as ward is and that's not true especially when you get into specific configurations you might try or react to try.

I think ward needs balance but I'm also glad that it currently stands up to players who do use scribing fairly well.

All DK skills means pretty much melee and melee means being a lot more susceptible to getting pulled by ROA into any number of the bombs of VD, AB, or Tarnished going off. I want to say how unbelievably easier it is at range to avoid so much of that, but it really should not be unbelievable. You can of course; build a DK to survive, but you will not kill anything.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I just can't stand the idea that we homogenize all the classes to procs and scribbles. I played my DK for the first time since before the corrosive armor meta, just because I ran nearly all DK skills. I died probably 3 times more than I would on my sorc, but I had fun melee and having the impact of leap and breath and fire.

To be fair that's not exactly a good comparison. A DK could run all DK skills and survive just the same as a sorc depending on build and playstyle.

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

I have 19 characters, fully leveled, most weapon, class, guild, world, etc skills unlocked with morphs on each.

You need to do full quest once and then you can just buy inks on the market and do the intro quest, which takes ~5 minutes.
I mean really. Unless you want something that is hidden behind dailies, opening the scribing on every char is just not an issue.

To be fair I am only going by what friends have told me when they did it and they could be going for something that requires more time or even several things.

So I would say that grind is just a relative thing and that to me this would still count as that but I understand not everyone is as burned out as I am on these things.

I support the evolution of the game and having new things. I'm just saying people throw scribing around like it's freely available in the same way as ward is and that's not true especially when you get into specific configurations you might try or react to try.

I think ward needs balance but I'm also glad that it currently stands up to players who do use scribing fairly well.

All DK skills means pretty much melee and melee means being a lot more susceptible to getting pulled by ROA into any number of the bombs of VD, AB, or Tarnished going off. I want to say how unbelievably easier it is at range to avoid so much of that, but it really should not be unbelievable. You can of course; build a DK to survive, but you will not kill anything.

I actually meant to take that comment out but forgot to. I would agree that depending on where you play, how you play and what fights you pick, DK is going to have a rough time.

The melee dks I see doing well are picking their fights, often using los and have some type of high burst combo . Definitely not as easy as ranged but ranged has ups and downs as well. It can really go both ways depending

TechMaybeHic

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I just can't stand the idea that we homogenize all the classes to procs and scribbles. I played my DK for the first time since before the corrosive armor meta, just because I ran nearly all DK skills. I died probably 3 times more than I would on my sorc, but I had fun melee and having the impact of leap and breath and fire.

To be fair that's not exactly a good comparison. A DK could run all DK skills and survive just the same as a sorc depending on build and playstyle.

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

I have 19 characters, fully leveled, most weapon, class, guild, world, etc skills unlocked with morphs on each.

You need to do full quest once and then you can just buy inks on the market and do the intro quest, which takes ~5 minutes.
I mean really. Unless you want something that is hidden behind dailies, opening the scribing on every char is just not an issue.

To be fair I am only going by what friends have told me when they did it and they could be going for something that requires more time or even several things.

So I would say that grind is just a relative thing and that to me this would still count as that but I understand not everyone is as burned out as I am on these things.

I support the evolution of the game and having new things. I'm just saying people throw scribing around like it's freely available in the same way as ward is and that's not true especially when you get into specific configurations you might try or react to try.

I think ward needs balance but I'm also glad that it currently stands up to players who do use scribing fairly well.

All DK skills means pretty much melee and melee means being a lot more susceptible to getting pulled by ROA into any number of the bombs of VD, AB, or Tarnished going off. I want to say how unbelievably easier it is at range to avoid so much of that, but it really should not be unbelievable. You can of course; build a DK to survive, but you will not kill anything.

I actually meant to take that comment out but forgot to. I would agree that depending on where you play, how you play and what fights you pick, DK is going to have a rough time.

The melee dks I see doing well are picking their fights, often using los and have some type of high burst combo . Definitely not as easy as ranged but ranged has ups and downs as well. It can really go both ways depending

So stick to LOS humping and bait casuals. Got it.

Navaac223

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Idinuse wrote: »

Exactly!! Facetanking, aka "talentless" - according to the polll, is ONLY for Arcanists, DKs, NBs and Templars ffs! wHO dO sOrC PLaYeRs tHiNk tHey aRe?! Arcanists and DKs?

You conveniently forgot that other classes you described (except nb but everyone agrees it's op) have nowhere near the damage of magsorcs. Simply compare the abilities that they have. Now look at the sets that people run on them : dk has to run defensive sets like daedric trickery and bloodspawn for sustain. Templar's sustain is so terrible that wretched is basically mandatory. Those classes have something else in common : they don't have the damage that 70k+ magicka sorcs can do (at range btw). Also the apparent tankyness of these classes don't come from "facetanking" (except for pvp tank bots who stand on a flag but, again, they don't deal damage). It comes from actual skill : line of sight, stuns, pots, quick break free...

Magsorcs can actually face tank by simply using ward on cooldown. Magsorc used to be fine because skilled players could use streak to go hide behind a wall while stunning everyone on their way. This was really hard to play for most players because of the lack of an on demand burst heal but experienced players would just streak>dark deal>go back to damage. I actually want to keep ward sorc possible by making it a HoT so that the sorc mains who don't want to learn how to streak can still have something but saying that DK and templar are even close to being on the same level as magsorcs is just wrong.TEMPLAR, the worst playable class in pvp (necro isn't a playable class and therefore doesn't count xD)

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I just can't stand the idea that we homogenize all the classes to procs and scribbles. I played my DK for the first time since before the corrosive armor meta, just because I ran nearly all DK skills. I died probably 3 times more than I would on my sorc, but I had fun melee and having the impact of leap and breath and fire.

To be fair that's not exactly a good comparison. A DK could run all DK skills and survive just the same as a sorc depending on build and playstyle.

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Just curious, how do we compare a skill that comes with the class and the game to one that you have to pay and grind for?

Pay - yes.
Grind - no.

The whole questline is like a day of play. You don't even need to do it till the end, just indrik and whatever opens mages guild suffixes. Best healing spell requires no daily items.

Then again, why would we compare only base game. Opponents in PvP use everything, you can stick to base game, but you are obviously gonna be weaker compared to people who have the latest stuff.

I have 19 characters, fully leveled, most weapon, class, guild, world, etc skills unlocked with morphs on each.

You need to do full quest once and then you can just buy inks on the market and do the intro quest, which takes ~5 minutes.
I mean really. Unless you want something that is hidden behind dailies, opening the scribing on every char is just not an issue.

To be fair I am only going by what friends have told me when they did it and they could be going for something that requires more time or even several things.

So I would say that grind is just a relative thing and that to me this would still count as that but I understand not everyone is as burned out as I am on these things.

I support the evolution of the game and having new things. I'm just saying people throw scribing around like it's freely available in the same way as ward is and that's not true especially when you get into specific configurations you might try or react to try.

I think ward needs balance but I'm also glad that it currently stands up to players who do use scribing fairly well.

All DK skills means pretty much melee and melee means being a lot more susceptible to getting pulled by ROA into any number of the bombs of VD, AB, or Tarnished going off. I want to say how unbelievably easier it is at range to avoid so much of that, but it really should not be unbelievable. You can of course; build a DK to survive, but you will not kill anything.

I actually meant to take that comment out but forgot to. I would agree that depending on where you play, how you play and what fights you pick, DK is going to have a rough time.

The melee dks I see doing well are picking their fights, often using los and have some type of high burst combo . Definitely not as easy as ranged but ranged has ups and downs as well. It can really go both ways depending

So stick to LOS humping and bait casuals. Got it.

Yes on los and casuals or not is really up to you. At the end of the day everyone needs los at some point, either that or numbers. So I always vote for having los handy.

When I say pick fights that doesn't really speak of the quality of player but more the situation. Ranged or not, bad positioning or lack of situational awareness can end you.

I honestly haven't played melee in a year or so now so my points just come from observing others in game be it first hand or on streams and seeing them do well in melee against all types of opponents as long as the use good judgement in engagement.

To be clear I have played melee just as long or longer than I've played ranged. I just haven't played it in the most recent patches due to taking breaks and deciding to embrace range before and after the most recent buff. I miss it at times and will certainly give it a go if I ever get into scribing.