Nerf Hardened Ward POLL VOTE

AvidNecro

Post doesn’t need explaining if you know anything about PvP and the current state of sorcerer. Vote below

Jsmalls

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Picked this cuz it's really the only option.

Can't keep it like it is, can't remove the heal (without changing the skill fundamentally).

But a HoT will not fix the broken setups currently abusing the skill. A near 20k Ward should NEVER be possible. And it is in the current scope of the game. Changing this to a HoT won't fix this.

TechMaybeHic

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

At first iteration, I might have felt a HOT replacement was necessary. Other healing options have been added or improved since.

Turtle_Bot

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Jsmalls wrote: »

Picked this cuz it's really the only option.

Can't keep it like it is, can't remove the heal (without changing the skill fundamentally).

But a HoT will not fix the broken setups currently abusing the skill. A near 20k Ward should NEVER be possible. And it is in the current scope of the game. Changing this to a HoT won't fix this.

Pretty much this (especially with the vitality changes and how easy it is to get that buff now with scribing).

The peak definitely needs nerfing, but at the same time, being just a ward with nothing else is just not worth running unless it has stupid OP numbers, so giving it some form of utility that would help it remain as a useful option when reducing it's extremes needs to happen.

The utility definitely doesn't need to specifically be healing over time, but that is a common/popular suggestion that does reinforce what the shield playstyle is supposed to be about (wards to protect/buffer the burst while HoTs bring you slowly back up), so I wouldn't mind it being that, but really the utility just needs to be something useful (a named buff, or snare removal, or something).

Durham

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

I agree hardened ward needs adjustments.... However the elephant in PVP is not a SORC its the NIGHTBLADE!

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Sorc never needed a burst heal on Ward before, and now there are more good healing options than ever.

LittlePinkDot

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Jsmalls wrote: »

Picked this cuz it's really the only option.

Can't keep it like it is, can't remove the heal (without changing the skill fundamentally).

But a HoT will not fix the broken setups currently abusing the skill. A near 20k Ward should NEVER be possible. And it is in the current scope of the game. Changing this to a HoT won't fix this.

Increase the cost of the skill

LittlePinkDot

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Durham wrote: »

I agree hardened ward needs adjustments.... However the elephant in PVP is not a SORC its the NIGHTBLADE!

I disagree. I find NB easier to kill. They're squishy.
Yeah they can do alot of damage, but if I reveal them I can kill them faster than I can a sorc spamming ward.

bladenick

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Durham wrote: »

I agree hardened ward needs adjustments.... However the elephant in PVP is not a SORC its the NIGHTBLADE!

I suppose the problem is range NB with 2 proc set, with a undeath nerfed, the damage is insane and only NB dare to use 2 proc set, because of cloak, despite it easy to kill

The problem is range proc due to undeath nerfed

divnyi

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

bladenick wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

I agree hardened ward needs adjustments.... However the elephant in PVP is not a SORC its the NIGHTBLADE!

I suppose the problem is range NB with 2 proc set, with a undeath nerfed, the damage is insane and only NB dare to use 2 proc set, because of cloak, despite it easy to kill

The problem is range proc due to undeath nerfed

Incap + Merciless is a problem too.

Major_Mangle

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

divnyi wrote: »

bladenick wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

I agree hardened ward needs adjustments.... However the elephant in PVP is not a SORC its the NIGHTBLADE!

I suppose the problem is range NB with 2 proc set, with a undeath nerfed, the damage is insane and only NB dare to use 2 proc set, because of cloak, despite it easy to kill

The problem is range proc due to undeath nerfed

Incap + Merciless is a problem too.

That combo is 100% avoidable in majority scenarios, hence why I don´t think NB damage is a problem. High single target burst damage is fine as long as there is good counterplay to it. And to the incap + merciless combo there is more than enough counterplay. As someone said above, range proc stacking from invisibility is a problem, but has more to do with game/combat design allowing you to stack an obscene amount of damage instances within a gcd (when you take things like LA damage, status effects, enchants etc etc into consideration).

The problem with NB isn´t their damage but the fact that it´s as tanky as every other "brawler-class". I know it´s too late for a change but I never liked that healthy offering became a self heal. Was balanced as a cross heal only back in the day. NB and sorc are similar in their original design where you´ve high single target damage but you´ve to rely on kiting to survive properly. With both classes having both the mobility/escape tools + ability to brawl, that´s where it gets a bit too much.

divnyi

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Major_Mangle wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

bladenick wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

I agree hardened ward needs adjustments.... However the elephant in PVP is not a SORC its the NIGHTBLADE!

I suppose the problem is range NB with 2 proc set, with a undeath nerfed, the damage is insane and only NB dare to use 2 proc set, because of cloak, despite it easy to kill

The problem is range proc due to undeath nerfed

Incap + Merciless is a problem too.

That combo is 100% avoidable in majority scenarios, hence why I don´t think NB damage is a problem. High single target burst damage is fine as long as there is good counterplay to it.

There are no good counterplays to 2 GCD combos where first one stuns. NB can deliver that on unsuspecting target.
And don't start on "just break faster" and "it's all lags", I play BGs and this is not an issue.

Major_Mangle

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

divnyi wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

bladenick wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

I agree hardened ward needs adjustments.... However the elephant in PVP is not a SORC its the NIGHTBLADE!

I suppose the problem is range NB with 2 proc set, with a undeath nerfed, the damage is insane and only NB dare to use 2 proc set, because of cloak, despite it easy to kill

The problem is range proc due to undeath nerfed

Incap + Merciless is a problem too.

That combo is 100% avoidable in majority scenarios, hence why I don´t think NB damage is a problem. High single target burst damage is fine as long as there is good counterplay to it.

There are no good counterplays to 2 GCD combos where first one stuns. NB can deliver that on unsuspecting target.
And don't start on "just break faster" and "it's all lags", I play BGs and this is not an issue.

Latency/ping/lag whatever you like to call it is never a valid reason for balance in my opinion since you never balance skills from that PoV in the first place, so I won´t bring that up
Since merciless has a minimum travel time you do have time to break free and either block or dodge after you get stunned by incap. Not saying I´ve never been hit by the combo because I´ve, but when I do I know it´s on me. Yes sometimes the game is super unresponsive but not really a nb issue and something else would´ve probably got me killed anyway.
Only way to reliably land a merciless proc is either through medium weave on an off-balance target (and they can block to prevent that so you´ve counter play there as well) or through soul tether into a bowproc (which can also be blocked).

Only part of the damage toolkit on NB that could be justified an adjustment would be concealed since it has 10% more damage compared to other melee spammable.

Azzras

Keep Ward how it is, talentless

Sorcs aren't S tier atm. B tier or maybe A, but not S

Ren_TheRedFox

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

@Azzras oh yeah And templars are S tier plus

Johaylons

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

I'm not super experienced but I'm a pvper who spends almost all his ingame time doing battlegrounds. So take my suggestion with that in mind:

What if we make all the "self heals and shields" scale from max hp instead of max resource? Keep the aoe/other target heals the same however they work for "healer" role reasons.

That way, every class, sorcs, NBs, wardens etc, all will have reduced tankiness IF they are built for dps, which is the main issue as far as I could see; people having insane damage and tankiness at the same time.

Bushido2513

I appreciate the poll being out put up. The results are very interesting. What's a dev to with a near 3 way tie? Wish there had been an other choice for voting.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I appreciate the poll being out put up. The results are very interesting. What's a dev to with a near 3 way tie? Wish there had been an other choice for voting.

It's not exactly a tie, 65% want some sort of Ward nerf, only 35% think it's okay as is.

VinnyGambini

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Azzras wrote: »

Sorcs aren't S tier atm. B tier or maybe A, but not S

Ofc sorcerers are not S tier, they are 3 tiers above S tier.

divnyi

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Johaylons wrote: »

What if we make all the "self heals and shields" scale from max hp instead of max resource? Keep the aoe/other target heals the same however they work for "healer" role reasons.

64 hp builds in PvP been a nobrainer for a long long time. We actually need some mechanics that force people to go above 25k-30k in stats.

But problem with shield is that it favors going for max values (like 50k+), not for reasonable values. And that's only small subset of builds with sets dedicated to that.

Navaac223

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Literally just put a hard cap on the shield's strengh and it will be balanced

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I appreciate the poll being out put up. The results are very interesting. What's a dev to with a near 3 way tie? Wish there had been an other choice for voting.

It's not exactly a tie, 65% want some sort of Ward nerf, only 35% think it's okay as is.

That's not the same at all. Saying I want something dead isn't in the same camp as I want something changed because one of those is a modification and the other is an absolute state. Yes they are both states of change but you have to look at end result as well. Me having a changed ward is very different than having the heal taken away all together.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Bushido2513 wrote: »

That's not the same at all. Saying I want something dead isn't in the same camp as I want something changed

It's the same to the devs, 65% say there's a problem, devs don't read player redesigns because players aren't devs.

divnyi

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

Bushido2513 wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I appreciate the poll being out put up. The results are very interesting. What's a dev to with a near 3 way tie? Wish there had been an other choice for voting.

It's not exactly a tie, 65% want some sort of Ward nerf, only 35% think it's okay as is.

That's not the same at all. Saying I want something dead isn't in the same camp as I want something changed because one of those is a modification and the other is an absolute state. Yes they are both states of change but you have to look at end result as well. Me having a changed ward is very different than having the heal taken away all together.

Heal being transformed to 10s HoT would be a big nerf from the current state, because 2-3 consequtive wards won't do ~20k heal and multiple HoT won't stack. As most kills in PvP is burst stacking, it would provide way smaller protection vs burst. Difference between "has HoT" and "has no HoT" is insignificant for burst heal, which it is.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

divnyi wrote: »

Heal being transformed to 10s HoT

It's all in the scaling, the HoT effects on Scribing shields are fine and balanced, but if they mash together a giant shield with Resolving Vigor the result would be just as bad as a burst heal. Players identify, devs solve.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

That's not the same at all. Saying I want something dead isn't in the same camp as I want something changed

It's the same to the devs, 65% say there's a problem, devs don't read player redesigns because players aren't devs.

You can't have it both ways. Either the third option is singular and matters or the poll should just have two options. But saying two of the options will be looked at as the same just means we have one more option than was needed and that you're interpreting it to be the same as another option on the poll.

Also you're speaking on what the devs will do with this information and I entertained that in my reply but only the devs can say how and if they will take the poll results into account.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also you're speaking on what the devs will do with this information and I entertained that in my reply but only the devs can say how and if they will take the poll results into account.

It's not open to interpretation, the poll clearly and objectively shows that only 35% think Ward is fine.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Also you're speaking on what the devs will do with this information and I entertained that in my reply but only the devs can say how and if they will take the poll results into account.

It's not open to interpretation, the poll clearly and objectively shows that only 35% think Ward is fine.

Even so none of the three choices has broken away from the other in a way that could be seen as neat unanimous support for one option or the other. The current lead is just 9 percent away from the direct alternative. We can't say what the devs will do but I do believe the third choice at 25 percent has yet to reach irrelevance and definitely shouldn't be lumped in with any other choice.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Bushido2513 wrote: »

neat unanimous support

65% for a Ward nerf is a mathematically strong majority that should be able to pass a decision. Players don't need to agree on a solution because players aren't devs and it's not our job, just agree on a problem, a literal majority of us do.

Jsmalls

Change to heal over time rather burst heal under ward, requires swapping to back bar for defensive rather just staying offensive while face tanking aka talentess

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Sorc never needed a burst heal on Ward before, and now there are more good healing options than ever.

@xylena_lazarow We've had this discussion before...

How is Ward balanced against Runespite Ward if this were the case? Let's compare...

Hardened Ward

"Conjure globes of Daedric energy for protection, granting a damage shield for you and your pets that absorbs 7323 damage for 6 seconds. If no pets are affected, you also heal for 2400 Health. This ability scales off the higher of your Max Health or Magicka and the shield is capped at 72% of your Max Health."

Passive interaction:

Restore 300 Magicka when it ends.
Increase health and stamina recovery by 20% on slotted bar (useless if you have another one on that bar for example bound aegis or curse).

Impervious RuneWard

"Like the rune knights of old, summon a shield that absorbs 9916 damage for 1 second, and then 4958 damage for 5 seconds if the first shield persists. Both shields scale off your Max Health. The first time you take direct damage, the shield retaliates and deals 0 Magic Damage to the attacker, scaling off your Armor. Consume Crux to heal yourself for 1600 Health, scaling off your Max Health, per Crux spent."

Passive interaction:

Increase armor by 1980.
Increase Magicka, Stamina, and Health Recovery by 129 each. (Unique to each ability slotted)
Grants you and your group Minor Evasion.
When used to consume crux generate 4 ultimate. (Once per 8 seconds)
Your status as illuminatus reduces the cost and increases the strength of your damage shields by 10%.
Warp fate when you generate or consume Crux, increasing your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 12% for 7 seconds.


Take away the heal from Hardened Ward and the comparison between the two abilities is laughable.

Is it truly balanced because it has the ability to scale on Magicka?

Compared to the loss of all the additional interaction that a comparable skill on Arcanist has?

I'm ALL for changing the skill. What about heal per absorbed hit? It becomes more susceptible to execute scaling but becomes stronger in a 1vX scenario (where Ward performs poorly). Etc etc

But if you want to remove the heal then something else SHOULD be added to it.

xylena_lazarow

Remove heal all together, Sorcs were doing just fine, balanced

Jsmalls wrote: »

How is Ward balanced against Runespite Ward if this were the case?

Why are we still talking about D tier Arcs, who have no spammable heal and no coherent offensive kit.