This pushing people into PVP is WRONG

Sylosi

Imagine arguing about skill in a game like ESO, it's like two 90 year olds arguing who is the fastest runner.

Gabriel_H

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Assessing skill is a quantitative and measurable thing. It takes more skill sets to excel at PvP than any other aspect of ESO. (build, timing, reaction speed, anticipation, use of environmental elements, experience and so on)

Build: Knowledge not a skill
Reaction Speed: Biological trait that can be trained but still not a skill
Anticipation: Emotion not a skill
Experience: Experience not a skill
Timing: Combination of all of the above
Use of enironmental elements: Application of the above

This leads to doing something well, i.e. Skill, but they themselves are not skills and therefore not a "skill set".

Casdha

I came here because the servers are down and I find this post thread funny.

The real power in this game isn't skill, it is the ability to debate. If you can argue a point well enough to get a skill changed (the math behind it, what it affects, etc...) and actually convince ZOS to change it, then you have the power here. Everyone else just gripes and complains (myself included). Which is why I do what I want, when I want and ignore the rest. I got tired of trying to keep up.

On topic: I have no problem with both sides having exclusive opportunities to earn things in this game, it is what's fair.

side thought: I don't PvP very much anymore but I have to admit that 9 out of 10 years with no new content and things only becoming more and more broken with the passing of time does not seem fair to me.

barney2525

This is why I dont do Imperial City. I pop in to the first option, look at the map, and determine if our Towns are safe.
If not, go to wayshrine, port back to city, try the next option.

When I find a map with our side dominant, I go do town dailies. 2 tickets. I don't care about the extra one from IC.

Did not have any problems whatsoever getting 2 tickets per day, lots of boxes, and Never got into a single PvP fight.

FlopsyPrince

EdjeSwift wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

This is why I tell the PvP crowd to lay off the ambushes. Unfortunately most of the gankers are not experienced PvP'rs. The PvP crowd is out competing with other PvP types. You are getting hit for the most part by players that the rest of the year would be lucky to get a kill in. That is why they gank the events. There are a few exceptions.

Can agree with this as my experience. Pre-MYM I was in IC getting story/dailies done for the Script Grind and I rarely ever got ganked or if I did get ganked, get ganked twice by the same player. I'd come back for my quest, they'd see me and leave me be, realizing I'm not there for PvP and not holding Tel Var.

As for the other point, when I would go into IC for my dailies and go about my business and people tried to gank me and I felt froggy and fought back, half the time I'd kill them and rack in the Tel Var, and I wasn't running my PvP build, just my basic Jabplar. Don't count MYM IC as normal IC or a reflection of actual IC denizens. Just like Cyrodiil, I can tell who are the "real PvPers" and who are just around for the event.

Yes, I have posted about it for many years. The same problems remain. Do the tickets make PvP fun for PvPers? You could have all the other rewards without that and if what you say is correct (PvPers fight PvPers) then the event would be just as good. Yet ZOS has done nothing to account for that or to allow for those who just shoot up to the platforms.

Fortunately it doesn't happen much, but I got nuked trying to just grab the "rescue citizens" quest. That was VERY ANNOYING since it hit me before I even realized what was happening, require a respawn someplace else and then down and up the ladder to get back to the platform, another really annoying design. (And this supposedly when they are trying to reduce the server load - all those ladders certainly don't help that!)

I did do the full set of quests this time around a few times, but only when the gankers were not as obnoxious, especially the ones hanging on the bridge above the first catapult. I simply quit trying when I hit that. I did die many times, but not too repetitively, largely because I simply quit trying when such gankers were around.

Yeah, I got whacked by many groups roaming by, but they usually did not camp there, though again the advice about quitting if it repeats applies.

My ongoing point, at least this time, is that tickets did not help any except the gankers that had nothing better to do than prey on others. Those who wanted the PvP rewards could get those without that.

Yet few of the "It is great!" crowd even address that. I have yet to see how pushing PvE players into PvP for the tickets makes the experience better for any but the gankers. And the gankers are a small part of the overall population. Enough to be very annoying, but not enough to keep most players engaged.

I would really look at things if I were ZOS, but I am not and the PvP problems (overall) have been around for years.

FlopsyPrince

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Glad you gave the PvP event a try. You made some solid accomplishments, too!

I only found one War Torte recipe myself.

I hope you at least had some fun while there. You were a real team player regardless.


EDIT: typo

I don't think I have ever gotten even 1 of these over the years. But then I am at best on the fringe, mostly doing PvE things in PvP when I try. Participating in a group can be fun, but groups are quite hard to find, especially with the very low PvP pop caps in Cyrodiil.

FlopsyPrince

barney2525 wrote: »

This is why I dont do Imperial City. I pop in to the first option, look at the map, and determine if our Towns are safe.
If not, go to wayshrine, port back to city, try the next option.

When I find a map with our side dominant, I go do town dailies. 2 tickets. I don't care about the extra one from IC.

Did not have any problems whatsoever getting 2 tickets per day, lots of boxes, and Never got into a single PvP fight.

What gets most frustrating even with that is when another faction takes over the town while you are there. A few can be fought off, but many are quite decent at PvP and just result in dying when confronting them. Come back late (if you can) in that case!

Four_Fingers

Or just sneak and turn the quests in and don't attack the other players.
They are busy flipping flags anyway, just be wary of town guards giving you away.

FlopsyPrince

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Or just sneak and turn the quests in and don't attack the other players.
They are busy flipping flags anyway, just be wary of town guards giving you away.

Not always true. I have found it often safer when a flag is being flipped, but you can also get ganked at any point.

Four_Fingers

Nothing is always true, but these methods have worked for me for years.
One thing is true, if you don't try it won't happen.

OsUfi

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

This is why I tell the PvP crowd to lay off the ambushes. Unfortunately most of the gankers are not experienced PvP'rs. The PvP crowd is out competing with other PvP types. You are getting hit for the most part by players that the rest of the year would be lucky to get a kill in. That is why they gank the events. There are a few exceptions.

Can agree with this as my experience. Pre-MYM I was in IC getting story/dailies done for the Script Grind and I rarely ever got ganked or if I did get ganked, get ganked twice by the same player. I'd come back for my quest, they'd see me and leave me be, realizing I'm not there for PvP and not holding Tel Var.

As for the other point, when I would go into IC for my dailies and go about my business and people tried to gank me and I felt froggy and fought back, half the time I'd kill them and rack in the Tel Var, and I wasn't running my PvP build, just my basic Jabplar. Don't count MYM IC as normal IC or a reflection of actual IC denizens. Just like Cyrodiil, I can tell who are the "real PvPers" and who are just around for the event.

Yet few of the "It is great!" crowd even address that. I have yet to see how pushing PvE players into PvP for the tickets makes the experience better for any but the gankers.

As multiple people in this thread have stated, including myself, going into Cyro is for a Whitestrakes has given many folks an interest in PvP that has given them reason to play ESO for years after. I'm not a ganker. I'm usually on my one-bar necro healer, dying often, but enjoying the ebb and flow of Cyro warfare.

FlopsyPrince

OsUfi wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

This is why I tell the PvP crowd to lay off the ambushes. Unfortunately most of the gankers are not experienced PvP'rs. The PvP crowd is out competing with other PvP types. You are getting hit for the most part by players that the rest of the year would be lucky to get a kill in. That is why they gank the events. There are a few exceptions.

Can agree with this as my experience. Pre-MYM I was in IC getting story/dailies done for the Script Grind and I rarely ever got ganked or if I did get ganked, get ganked twice by the same player. I'd come back for my quest, they'd see me and leave me be, realizing I'm not there for PvP and not holding Tel Var.

As for the other point, when I would go into IC for my dailies and go about my business and people tried to gank me and I felt froggy and fought back, half the time I'd kill them and rack in the Tel Var, and I wasn't running my PvP build, just my basic Jabplar. Don't count MYM IC as normal IC or a reflection of actual IC denizens. Just like Cyrodiil, I can tell who are the "real PvPers" and who are just around for the event.

Yet few of the "It is great!" crowd even address that. I have yet to see how pushing PvE players into PvP for the tickets makes the experience better for any but the gankers.

As multiple people in this thread have stated, including myself, going into Cyro is for a Whitestrakes has given many folks an interest in PvP that has given them reason to play ESO for years after. I'm not a ganker. I'm usually on my one-bar necro healer, dying often, but enjoying the ebb and flow of Cyro warfare.

Would other rewards not do that? Running quests in a town or a scouting mission is not likely to generate the "give PvP a try" you note. I seriously doubt most PvE players take the "capture a keep/resource" quests or "kill X players" quest to earn tickets.

OsUfi

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

OsUfi wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

This is why I tell the PvP crowd to lay off the ambushes. Unfortunately most of the gankers are not experienced PvP'rs. The PvP crowd is out competing with other PvP types. You are getting hit for the most part by players that the rest of the year would be lucky to get a kill in. That is why they gank the events. There are a few exceptions.

Can agree with this as my experience. Pre-MYM I was in IC getting story/dailies done for the Script Grind and I rarely ever got ganked or if I did get ganked, get ganked twice by the same player. I'd come back for my quest, they'd see me and leave me be, realizing I'm not there for PvP and not holding Tel Var.

As for the other point, when I would go into IC for my dailies and go about my business and people tried to gank me and I felt froggy and fought back, half the time I'd kill them and rack in the Tel Var, and I wasn't running my PvP build, just my basic Jabplar. Don't count MYM IC as normal IC or a reflection of actual IC denizens. Just like Cyrodiil, I can tell who are the "real PvPers" and who are just around for the event.

Yet few of the "It is great!" crowd even address that. I have yet to see how pushing PvE players into PvP for the tickets makes the experience better for any but the gankers.

As multiple people in this thread have stated, including myself, going into Cyro is for a Whitestrakes has given many folks an interest in PvP that has given them reason to play ESO for years after. I'm not a ganker. I'm usually on my one-bar necro healer, dying often, but enjoying the ebb and flow of Cyro warfare.

Would other rewards not do that? Running quests in a town or a scouting mission is not likely to generate the "give PvP a try" you note. I seriously doubt most PvE players take the "capture a keep/resource" quests or "kill X players" quest to earn tickets.

It's the act of getting them into Cyrodiil and involved in the action. Most don't. Many do. Of those many, a considerable amount stick about after Whitestrakes.

Reading your posts frequently baffles me. Why even bother subscribing to ESO if you never actually intend to "play the game." on any level. Not just PvP.

SaffronCitrusflower

We get it. Not everyone likes PvP. That doesn't negate the fact that PvP is the hardest, most significant test of skill in ESO. I think most people who don't like PvP don't like it because it is so much more challenging than the mindless overland questing. PvP takes preparation, practice and effort. It's not like PvE. The good news is you have have 60-80 companions with you at the same time in PvP.

BananaBender

PvE and PvP require completely different skillsets and are not even comparable. You can draw unfair comparisons both ways. If your view of PvE is people doing questing or sitting behind target dummy, of course you think that PvE is the easiest thing there is. But you can also think that PvP is super easy if your only experience is running around in a ball group and taking 60 vs 10 fights, or running in around in a tower while spamming heals until everyone else gets bored, then sure PvP feels like you could play it with your eyes closed. Both viewpoints are flawed. Surviving and turning around an outnumbered fight in PvP takes way different set of skill than tanking a trifecta, those two just are not comparable, even though in both a single mistake will cost you.

At the end of the day difficulty and challenge is personal, you might find something very easy while others think it's extremely difficult. Arguing over which mode is more difficult or requires more skill is absolutely pointless.

I'm sure my experience with PvP only scratches the surface of what the content has to provide, so I'm not dumb enough to make claims of how easy or difficult it is. That doesn't seem to be the case for everyone on this thread... There is plenty of challenge to be found in both aspects of the game if you just go looking for it. Or you can just argue on the forums to make you feel superior, each to their own.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

PvP takes preparation, practice and effort. It's not like PvE.

I would love to see you raid lead Swashbuckler Supreme or Planesbreaker just to see how much preparation, practice and effort it takes. Just because you haven't personally experienced any difficulty in PvE doesn't mean there isn't any.
For anyone who thinks PvE isn't difficult, get yourself 11 other PvP enjoyers and go get some trifectas for some achievement points. Shouldn't be hard, right?

Nharimlur_Finor

edited

Lumsdenml

Sylosi wrote: »

Imagine arguing about skill in a game like ESO, it's like two 90 year olds arguing who is the fastest runner.

If you don't think this game takes skill to be better, you are doing it wrong.

Highwayman

The way I see it is that the primary unique trait humans have is the unparalleled ability to apply knowledge and experience abstractly with different things. Everything feeds into everything one way or another, sometimes in subtle ways we aren't even aware of. Not that these are even subtle..

Working on a light attack rotation on the dummy has definitely aided in having a solid weave in pvp.

The constant buff management I learned in pvp has aided me in pve.

Learning a musical instrument has aided me in both.

Learning music theory helped me learn to play an instrument.

Learning math helped me learn music theory.

None are prerequisites of the other, or a subset of the other, but they all tie together into a greater whole. I'd feel it a shame to dismiss any of it even if it wasn't always the most direct path.

It's funny how common the arguments are when domains do overlap a little. This reminds me of sticking a bunch of software engineers and reverse engineers in the same room. Almost invariably someone will make declarations about what is or isn't a skill based on holding an entry level example of the other against the pinnacle of their own domain. I don't think it's deliberate, it just shows their limited view of the whole.

TaSheen

Highwayman wrote: »

The way I see it is that the primary unique trait humans have is the unparalleled ability to apply knowledge and experience abstractly with different things. Everything feeds into everything one way or another, sometimes in subtle ways we aren't even aware of. Not that these are even subtle..

Working on a light attack rotation on the dummy has definitely aided in having a solid weave in pvp.

The constant buff management I learned in pvp has aided me in pve.

Learning a musical instrument has aided me in both.

Learning music theory helped me learn to play an instrument.

Learning math helped me learn music theory.

None are prerequisites of the other, or a subset of the other, but they all tie together into a greater whole. I'd feel it a shame to dismiss any of it even if it wasn't always the most direct path.

It's funny how common the arguments are when domains do overlap a little. This reminds me of sticking a bunch of software engineers and reverse engineers in the same room. Almost invariably someone will make declarations about what is or isn't a skill based on holding an entry level example of the other against the pinnacle of their own domain. I don't think it's deliberate, it just shows their limited view of the whole.

Well... if you believe in deity, probably said deity sees the whole. That might be the only possible time that happens.

Ocelot9x

Well imagine how unfair is forcing pvp people into pve, i had to spend around 20 hours to farm all the set i needed lol

Amottica

CrazyKitty wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

Hey now... they push me into PvE for the other 10+ events each year.

I think you all can handle one event.

Yeah, but ESO is a PVE game that happens to have (very broken) PVP, not the other way around. Well, the PVE is fairly bust too.

ESO was designed and advertised as PvP being the primary end game content. Not the other way around.

ESO was not designed for PvP to be the primary end-game content. Heck, Cyrodiil is not even a true endgame since it does not require a player to be max level.

Considering they had three PvE raids and effectively two zones ready to release in the first year alone demonstrates that PvP was not the main focus. They did not toss that together in a couple of months. They were well planned and were being worked on side by side with the initial release.

Amottica

CrazyKitty wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

You're trying to argue that playing house is as equally difficult as building a house. All it takes to play house is an imagination. It takes skill and experience to build a house. The level of difficulty is not even remotely the same.

I am not arguing any such thing. I am saying that no, PvP isn't the true test of skill in ESO as was claimed in this post.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

PvP is the true test of skill in ESO.

Yes, you are.

Excelling at PvP is the true test of a players skill in ESO. A top tier PvP player can complete any content in the game and is welcome in end game PvE trials. Someone who just furnishes homes can't do anything other than furnish more homes. It takes imagination to do housing in ESO, but it takes zero skill or experience.

I will never agree that PvP players are more skilled than those that PvE so let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Agree or disagree it remains a fact that PvP is the most challenging test of player skill in ESO.

Cyrodiil is the most challenging test of a player? Running around in a group of 10-20 players and taking out smaller groups is challenging.

Heck, I enjoy Cyrodiil but it is not challenging.

Oh, a great many players do fine in both Cyrodiil and BGs, yet a very small number of players have been able to clear HM on the more challenging trials. That speaks volumes.

darvaria

LOL that one IC quest. Okay, I did the capture resources and scouting quest and that platform one. Did 20 quests for weekly endeavor. Used the porting around a red map. It took me less than 45 minutes to do 20 quests. And I didn't have any saved. And during this 20 quests, I never saw one single player. So where is this PVP you complain about?

OtarTheMad

And I don't want to be forced to do dungeons and Undaunted stuff for that event just to get tickets so I guess we're even.

ToRelax

The idea that predominant PvP players are only decent at PvE because they have to do it a lot is flawed - because most of the required PvE is extremely easy. You wouldn't claim good PvE players acquired their skill in normal dungeons, either.
Most of my monster sets, arena weapons etc. I got by playing the required content in PvP builds, preferably solo, maybe adding a DoT or two to speed things up. What helped me there was knowledge, experience and mechanical skill developed in PvP, not my pitiful PvE experience or the less than half dozen dummies I've killed in ten years. Treating a boss like an enemy in PvP, I can kill it, if not in the optimal way. Treating an enemy player like a boss will get you deleted every time. Heck, I still remember the release of Maelstrom Arena and most PvEers having way more trouble with it than PvPers, simply because it was so different than what they were used to. To those who never relied on enemies not reacting to their abilities in the first place and being used to keeping themselves alive, it obviously was no issue.

So, PvP doesn't automatically make a great PvEer right out the gate. But it does give a huge head start compared to the other way around. Such is the nature of requiring a wider array of skills.

SaffronCitrusflower

BananaBender wrote: »

PvE and PvP require completely different skillsets and are not even comparable. You can draw unfair comparisons both ways. If your view of PvE is people doing questing or sitting behind target dummy, of course you think that PvE is the easiest thing there is. But you can also think that PvP is super easy if your only experience is running around in a ball group and taking 60 vs 10 fights, or running in around in a tower while spamming heals until everyone else gets bored, then sure PvP feels like you could play it with your eyes closed. Both viewpoints are flawed. Surviving and turning around an outnumbered fight in PvP takes way different set of skill than tanking a trifecta, those two just are not comparable, even though in both a single mistake will cost you.

At the end of the day difficulty and challenge is personal, you might find something very easy while others think it's extremely difficult. Arguing over which mode is more difficult or requires more skill is absolutely pointless.

I'm sure my experience with PvP only scratches the surface of what the content has to provide, so I'm not dumb enough to make claims of how easy or difficult it is. That doesn't seem to be the case for everyone on this thread... There is plenty of challenge to be found in both aspects of the game if you just go looking for it. Or you can just argue on the forums to make you feel superior, each to their own.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

PvP takes preparation, practice and effort. It's not like PvE.

I would love to see you raid lead Swashbuckler Supreme or Planesbreaker just to see how much preparation, practice and effort it takes. Just because you haven't personally experienced any difficulty in PvE doesn't mean there isn't any.
For anyone who thinks PvE isn't difficult, get yourself 11 other PvP enjoyers and go get some trifectas for some achievement points. Shouldn't be hard, right?

Dreadsail Reef and Rockgrove aren't super challenging. It's all scripted. The bosses do the same thing, every time, no matter what. So it's just a matter of a few tries and then it's easy because you know exactly what is going to happen next. And yes, I've completed this content with my PvP buddies multiple times on HM. We're also on the trifecta leader boards on a regular basis. It's not easy content, as you have pointed out, but it's still easier than excelling at PvP.

SaffronCitrusflower

Amottica wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

Hey now... they push me into PvE for the other 10+ events each year.

I think you all can handle one event.

Yeah, but ESO is a PVE game that happens to have (very broken) PVP, not the other way around. Well, the PVE is fairly bust too.

ESO was designed and advertised as PvP being the primary end game content. Not the other way around.

ESO was not designed for PvP to be the primary end-game content. Heck, Cyrodiil is not even a true endgame since it does not require a player to be max level.

Considering they had three PvE raids and effectively two zones ready to release in the first year alone demonstrates that PvP was not the main focus. They did not toss that together in a couple of months. They were well planned and were being worked on side by side with the initial release.

Except ESO was designed to have Cyrodiil being the primary end game content. The back of the box of the original release of the game says so. The pic of the back of the box has been posted many times and you've seen it many times. There is no content in ESO that requires players to be max level to participate in.

SaffronCitrusflower

Amottica wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

You're trying to argue that playing house is as equally difficult as building a house. All it takes to play house is an imagination. It takes skill and experience to build a house. The level of difficulty is not even remotely the same.

I am not arguing any such thing. I am saying that no, PvP isn't the true test of skill in ESO as was claimed in this post.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

PvP is the true test of skill in ESO.

Yes, you are.

Excelling at PvP is the true test of a players skill in ESO. A top tier PvP player can complete any content in the game and is welcome in end game PvE trials. Someone who just furnishes homes can't do anything other than furnish more homes. It takes imagination to do housing in ESO, but it takes zero skill or experience.

I will never agree that PvP players are more skilled than those that PvE so let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Agree or disagree it remains a fact that PvP is the most challenging test of player skill in ESO.

Cyrodiil is the most challenging test of a player? Running around in a group of 10-20 players and taking out smaller groups is challenging.

Heck, I enjoy Cyrodiil but it is not challenging.

Oh, a great many players do fine in both Cyrodiil and BGs, yet a very small number of players have been able to clear HM on the more challenging trials. That speaks volumes.

The group cap in Cyrodiil is only 12 players now. It's not possible to form a group any larger.

As I stated in the post above, it is, in fact, the top tier PvP players that complete the HM trials the most frequently and are most frequently seen on the leader boards for the toughest PvE content. That speaks volumes.

PvP is everything PvE plus PvP. If a player is top tier PvP then even the hardest PvE content is just a matter of learning the mechanics because PvE mechanics never change. They are always the same. Even the toughest PvE content is highly predictable.

Orbital78

Sylosi wrote: »

Imagine arguing about skill in a game like ESO, it's like two 90 year olds arguing who is the fastest runner.

look how fast we can spin around this tree or rock boys.

Amottica

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

Hey now... they push me into PvE for the other 10+ events each year.

I think you all can handle one event.

Yeah, but ESO is a PVE game that happens to have (very broken) PVP, not the other way around. Well, the PVE is fairly bust too.

ESO was designed and advertised as PvP being the primary end game content. Not the other way around.

ESO was not designed for PvP to be the primary end-game content. Heck, Cyrodiil is not even a true endgame since it does not require a player to be max level.

Considering they had three PvE raids and effectively two zones ready to release in the first year alone demonstrates that PvP was not the main focus. They did not toss that together in a couple of months. They were well planned and were being worked on side by side with the initial release.

Except ESO was designed to have Cyrodiil being the primary end game content. The back of the box of the original release of the game says so. The pic of the back of the box has been posted many times and you've seen it many times. There is no content in ESO that requires players to be max level to participate in.

Not really. The story, to which the center of the map is centric to it, is why Cyrodiil was a major part of the story. The design of the game demonstrates that the zone was not centric to the actual game or end game.

There is content that requires players to be max level (level 50 is max level). When the game was released, there were even vet dungeons and quick vet trials.