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ZOS you are destroying the PvP of this game....
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silky_soft✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd just like them to make what happens on my screen happen in the server checkHere $15, goat mount please. Not gambling or paying 45 : lol :
20% base speed for high ping players.
Streak moves you faster then speed cap.
They should of made 4v4v4v4 instead of 8v8.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I play this game since 2014 and I fully agree. I made max allaiance rank long before double AP recepies or PvP events. Back then it was an insane grind. And PvP back then vs what we have now was like a difference between day & night. There were more players. Everyone had different setup & gear. More builds were viable. Even though there was "a meta" it was nothing like today. Today you just slap a bunch of proc sets & those carry you or you join a ball group & you become immortal. Speaking of ball groups - in the past those were also present. And they actually were larger as group limit was 24 & not 12. But, despite that even ball groups had to be careful as they were actually mortal. It was possible to counter those groups with sieges. Nowadays it just feels like entire PvP in eso has become one big cheat code lol. Like nothing matters... No rules. Like I am playing Garry's Mod...MasterSpatula wrote: »The unbalance has driven everyone with a sense of fair play out of Cyrodiil, and that results in ZOS catering PVP even more to the people who are left, the people who like ball groups and bombing and proc sets. It's a vicious cycle. The more toxicity is allowed to run free, the more it looks like toxicity is what the people want.
I was not sure so I had to try it out to be sure, but after playing for 4 days during current PvP event, I can tell you that it is so far the worst PvP event that took place. I thought previous ones were bad due to lag & crashes, but this one, despite having no lag & crashes (at least for me) is absolutely the worst. Meta got horrible. Ball groups are everywhere & there is more of them than ever before (low effort vs huge rewards so even pugs can play effectively). On top of that there is huge population imbalance so that usually one faction dominates entire campaign & finding a good fight is close to impossible.4 -
Bammlschwamml✭✭✭At some point in time ZOS realized that housing gives the most return for the least effort.
PvP isn't going to get any changes that will attract more players.
Clearly, Zenimax makes more money off of housing. PvP has no direct monetization while housing has a ton of monetization. Housing is likely a cash cow.
Except, per capita, it's the hardcore PvP players that spend the most on the game, not the casuals who spend hours alone playing house.
Of course since PvP has so many cash/crown sinks and housing lacks monetization.
Oh wait, it is the other way around since PvP is free and has no direct monetization.
Direct monetization again...
And then we add commercials and product placement?
Maybe start a crowfunding campaign too?
Pvp is not free. It's part of a game we bought, and keep paying for with eso+, dlcs and the crown store. The game has been financed already. There is no excuse for it not to work.6 -
JustLovely✭✭✭✭✭Bammlschwamml wrote: »At some point in time ZOS realized that housing gives the most return for the least effort.
PvP isn't going to get any changes that will attract more players.
Clearly, Zenimax makes more money off of housing. PvP has no direct monetization while housing has a ton of monetization. Housing is likely a cash cow.
Except, per capita, it's the hardcore PvP players that spend the most on the game, not the casuals who spend hours alone playing house.
Of course since PvP has so many cash/crown sinks and housing lacks monetization.
Oh wait, it is the other way around since PvP is free and has no direct monetization.
Direct monetization again...
And then we add commercials and product placement?
Maybe start a crowfunding campaign too?
Pvp is not free. It's part of a game we bought, and keep paying for with eso+, dlcs and the crown store. The game has been financed already. There is no excuse for it not to work.
Exactly. When people try to claim that the PvP crowd aren't some of the biggest spenders in the game it just shows how little they know about the PvP player population.
What's killing Cyrodiil PvP is the insanely, unjustifiably low population caps. It's ZOS limiting their own success.
Edited by JustLovely on 28 July 2024 16:129 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh wait, it is the other way around since PvP is free and has no direct monetization.
Every chapter is a direct monetization for PvP, since they add PvP chase items to every chapter.
[snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 28 July 2024 17:505 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭BlackRaidho wrote: »PVP is bad designed, period.
Some happy fews make fun playing around but that's all.
PVP servers are empty all year long till the event, and during the event it's just a noob slayer season. That's the only reason PVP players ask for this event, fresh meat.
If PVP is sooooooo good as some people pretend, then servers should be full even off-event.
The main campaign is pop locked most of the time outside of the event. And with pop caps of 60-80 players/faction, it's no wonder.
It's ZOS' unjustifiably low population cap that's strangling Cyrodiil more than anything else. Pop caps this low are totally irrational unless some of the snipped comments have merit.
60-80? My guild had 5 groups of 12 and there were many other groups around. It’s probably around 150.0 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »BlackRaidho wrote: »PVP is bad designed, period.
Some happy fews make fun playing around but that's all.
PVP servers are empty all year long till the event, and during the event it's just a noob slayer season. That's the only reason PVP players ask for this event, fresh meat.
If PVP is sooooooo good as some people pretend, then servers should be full even off-event.
The main campaign is pop locked most of the time outside of the event. And with pop caps of 60-80 players/faction, it's no wonder.
It's ZOS' unjustifiably low population cap that's strangling Cyrodiil more than anything else. Pop caps this low are totally irrational unless some of the snipped comments have merit.
60-80? My guild had 5 groups of 12 and there were many other groups around. It’s probably around 150.
5 groups of 12 from one guild huh? I haven't seen anything like that since 24 man groups were a thing, and I'm in Cyrodiil every day for at least 2 hours.
The pop cap is closer to 150 all three factions combined than it is 150/faction.
10 -
notyuu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Compared to the "casuals" that do housing which means buying the house (usually for a ton of crowns), having the new chapter to get the new furnishing plans ontop of sinking time doing antiques ontop of also doing master wrist to get master furnishings, which inturn means learning most, if not all of the motifs in the game, if they have alt chars to increase output from daily crafting that's another chance to sell instant researched ontop of the usual mount and bag nonsense, and this isn't even getting into create only crown exclusive furnishings, ontop of that they also have ESO+ for the increased housing slots, by comparison pvpers spend what? New chapter, yearly dungeon boost...and then what?
TL:DR
"Casuals" that play house buy with irl coin/crowns
-house
-motifs
-crates
-furnishings
-chapters
-eso+
-more likely to buy insta research scrolls
And by your own admission, pvpers buy with irl money/crowns
-the chapter
-yearly dungeon (if not included in ESO+ already)0 -
CatoUnchained✭✭✭✭
Compared to the "casuals" that do housing which means buying the house (usually for a ton of crowns), having the new chapter to get the new furnishing plans ontop of sinking time doing antiques ontop of also doing master wrist to get master furnishings, which inturn means learning most, if not all of the motifs in the game, if they have alt chars to increase output from daily crafting that's another chance to sell instant researched ontop of the usual mount and bag nonsense, and this isn't even getting into create only crown exclusive furnishings, ontop of that they also have ESO+ for the increased housing slots, by comparison pvpers spend what? New chapter, yearly dungeon boost...and then what?
TL:DR
"Casuals" that play house buy with irl coin/crowns
-house
-motifs
-crates
-furnishings
-chapters
-eso+
-more likely to buy insta research scrolls
And by your own admission, pvpers buy with irl money/crowns
-the chapter
-yearly dungeon (if not included in ESO+ already)
You seem to be assuming that nobody who PvP's also participates in housing. This is an erroneous assumption in the extreme.9 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭@notyuu most of the stuff you mentioned is just ingame grind, not crown store items. And the items you need could generally be bought by the crowns that are provided with plus.
What PvPers buy in crown store? Skill lines (I instabuy undaunted), alliance changes. If you have a lot of characters, that's a lot of spendings. More than 10? Character slots too.0 -
TDVM✭✭✭✭The answer is quite simple: pvp doesn't bring money, and if something doesn't bring money, you don't have to care about it
0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bammlschwamml wrote: »At some point in time ZOS realized that housing gives the most return for the least effort.
PvP isn't going to get any changes that will attract more players.
Clearly, Zenimax makes more money off of housing. PvP has no direct monetization while housing has a ton of monetization. Housing is likely a cash cow.
Except, per capita, it's the hardcore PvP players that spend the most on the game, not the casuals who spend hours alone playing house.
Of course since PvP has so many cash/crown sinks and housing lacks monetization.
Oh wait, it is the other way around since PvP is free and has no direct monetization.
Direct monetization again...
And then we add commercials and product placement?
Maybe start a crowfunding campaign too?
Pvp is not free. It's part of a game we bought, and keep paying for with eso+, dlcs and the crown store. The game has been financed already. There is no excuse for it not to work.
Lost me on commercials, product placement, and crowdfunding, as they are not part of ESO.
PvP costs nothing after purchasing the base game. None of the other items mentioned are required to PvP so they cannot be considered direct monetization by any stretch of the definition. That is the factual comment I made.
1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Indirect as it is not required to PvP. That does not mean no pure PvP players purchase such items but they are factually not direct monetization for PvP as they are not required to enter or play PvP.
The so-called PvP chase items are not required to play PvP.
0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh benevolent overlords of zos hear our plea. Never wishing to ever insinuate that a conspiracy has taken place among the honorable staff but to only point out humbly, that continuing ineptitude over years may have the "Appearance" of a conspiracy against the pvp players. No. Do not think this one will entertain any such nonsense ever.
In the wishing of blessings and prosperity could you pretty please with moonsugar on top become competent in pvp development so the public can applause your success instead of questioning your intentions? That would be nice and thank you fore reading.4 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭BlackRaidho wrote: »What PVP ? You mean "Break Free Simulator" ?
I kinda... want to make that it's own game now...
He probably should've chose the Slippery CP star0 -
Bammlschwamml✭✭✭Lost me on commercials, product placement, and crowdfunding, as they are not part of ESO.
PvP costs nothing after purchasing the base game. None of the other items mentioned are required to PvP so they cannot be considered direct monetization by any stretch of the definition. That is the factual comment I made.
Housing also costs nothing after purchasing the base game. Nothing you can buy in the crown store is required to play house...
I don't care about "direct monetization". It's not necessary, and it can harm the game. Just like ingame commercials, product placement or any other attempt to squeeze out more money.2 -
Sluggy✭✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »BlackRaidho wrote: »What PVP ? You mean "Break Free Simulator" ?
I kinda... want to make that it's own game now...
He probably should've chose the Slippery CP star
Unless you are like me and you instinctively breakfree on reaction regardless of the CP cooldown - which then runs the risk of breaking free manually first and charging you the stam AND triggering the cooldown on the CP. It's even better when the break free fails and now you have to break again (and maybe even a third time) and now you're charged even more stam plus the cooldown on the CP...1 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭The so-called PvP chase items are not required to play PvP.
So-called crown store houses are not required to participate in housing. You can buy some houses for gold and find some housing items without paying anything.0 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »BlackRaidho wrote: »What PVP ? You mean "Break Free Simulator" ?
I kinda... want to make that it's own game now...
He probably should've chose the Slippery CP star
Unless you are like me and you instinctively breakfree on reaction regardless of the CP cooldown - which then runs the risk of breaking free manually first and charging you the stam AND triggering the cooldown on the CP. It's even better when the break free fails and now you have to break again (and maybe even a third time) and now you're charged even more stam plus the cooldown on the CP...
Wait what, I thought it just breaks instantly and doesn't let you break yourself, so worst case you would bash something several times?0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭JustLovely wrote: »Bammlschwamml wrote: »At some point in time ZOS realized that housing gives the most return for the least effort.
PvP isn't going to get any changes that will attract more players.
Clearly, Zenimax makes more money off of housing. PvP has no direct monetization while housing has a ton of monetization. Housing is likely a cash cow.
Except, per capita, it's the hardcore PvP players that spend the most on the game, not the casuals who spend hours alone playing house.
Of course since PvP has so many cash/crown sinks and housing lacks monetization.
Oh wait, it is the other way around since PvP is free and has no direct monetization.
Direct monetization again...
And then we add commercials and product placement?
Maybe start a crowfunding campaign too?
Pvp is not free. It's part of a game we bought, and keep paying for with eso+, dlcs and the crown store. The game has been financed already. There is no excuse for it not to work.
Exactly. When people try to claim that the PvP crowd aren't some of the biggest spenders in the game it just shows how little they know about the PvP player population.
What's killing Cyrodiil PvP is the insanely, unjustifiably low population caps. It's ZOS limiting their own success.
There is some truth in these statements but still. Yes of course will there be players that pvp that spend money on the game sure but it's about what generates current revenue. I spent a good deal of mone on this game over the years and in the past couple of years have spent barely any. I'm sure whatever I put in has already been spent.
Nobody can really say for sure what group is spending the most money on this game on average. For all we know 30 percent of revenue is just people that forgot to cancel subs.
Looking at what ZOS does spend their money on we could say that they seem to be making something for all players but that it mostly trends towards content they can sell to the biggest audience which from my reading doesn't seem to be pvp though pvp definitely benefits. Again we'll never really know though.0 -
Tiphis✭✭✭✭Again these threads are pointless because ball groups are the only playstyle zos wants in cyro. If you play something different it's not what is intended and as such obviously won't be good.0 -
Supershutze✭✭BlackRaidho wrote: »PVP is something for some "happy few".
PVP is frustrating for most of players.
PVP is frustrating because the average new player experience is being deleted repeatedly and giving up to go do something that's actually fun.
They can't "get good" because they never actually get the chance to engage in PvP; the fight is over before it starts.
The gulf between skilled players and new players is so vast it's effectively insurmountable, and there's nothing more frustrating than feeling like not only did your efforts fail, they had *no effect whatsoever* on the outcome.4 -
Kartalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ball groups are a result of players min-maxing within the rules coded into the game. Don’t blame us for coordinating builds in order to optimize our results. Also realize a rag tag group of pvers is not going to be wandering into pvp and taking down one of these groups either. You’re prepared for a normal trial facing people prepped for vet hardmodes. The time, effort, and theorycrafting is just not there.
It’s not just having builds either. I recently heard a story of a pug herder that got some ball group builds and slapped them on some less experienced players and failed spectacularly. Individual skill and the ability to coordinate is extremely important as well. Our logs consistently show each group member performing over 60 actions (skills + LA + HA) per minute while engaged in combat and coordinating movement, much higher if they’re really good at light attack weaving. And it’s not just any skill, or just a few skills— at the very least it’s 9+ skills. While rotations vary depending on roles and the specific scenario encountered, failure to fulfill any one role has a significant impact on the overall group, and if we have 2 or more “carries/fills” then we likely will have a bad night.
Some of you may be surprised to learn how many endgame pvers participate in ball groups. The demands are not all that different.
But to address how to fix ball groups being _too_ powerful, there are three issues as I see it.
3rd: Hot stacking. I know a lot of people see this as the number one problem but in the last 14 months the landscape has changed. Regardless it does excessively empower organized groups.
2nd: Shield stacking. If hot stacking had been addressed everyone would have quickly seen this as the next big issue, but with the release of the arcanist class and now scribing, I feel like it’s a harder carry than hot stacking at the moment.
1st: There really is no way for newer players to step into Cyrodiil and learn the ropes without 1) failing frequently and being able to push past this wall, or 2) having a lot of help from more experienced players, specifically through voice interactions and trial and error.
Lowbie Cyrodiil just doesn’t have the popularity it once did, and there is just so much that an individual of that level can do. Let’s not forget that when it did have population there were guilds that continually rerolled new characters to play there and would control the campaign to an extent. One solution might be to have a campaign that is instead limited by CP, like sub 300 CP only, but that only addresses one part of the problem. Perhaps a campaign where the total accumulated pvp rank of your account (includes all characters’ AP earned) is less than 40, or some other appropriate number? I don’t know that there is a good solution here but it’s very clear the jump to full CP Cyrodiil against highly experienced players is a significant one.- PC/NA
- Karllotta, AD Magplar, AR 50
- Hatched-In-Glacier, DC Magden, AR 44
- Miraliys, EP Warden, AR 35
- Kartalin, AD Stamblade, AR 35
- Miralys, AD Magsorc, AR 35
- Milthalas, EP Magblade, AR 35
- Kallenna, AD Magcro, AR 34
- Lyranais, EP Magsorc, AR 33
- Lemon Party - Meanest Girls - @ Kartalin - Youtube
1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
It's absolutely not true in the sense that we really don't know where ZOS gets their money. Could be expansions and crown store items but everyone buys those to more or less of a degree. 10 casuals buying one things each or one vet buying 10 things, only ZOS knows.
And generally while pve gets most of the content development we know pvp gets some new sets so pvp does get some development dollars.
Ultimately who knows where the money comes from but we do know ZOS continues to care enough to make some changes that affect or encourage PVP.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think most players blame ZOS for what we have to deal with, not the people in organized groups.
Right not Cyrodiil is beyond the point where Humpty Dumpty fell off the wall. It's not just PvP that ZOS does not invest in, they don't invest much in combat as a whole. Look how small the combat notes on the PTS are, and most of them are lazy adjustments of adding 2% of something here or just throwing on a generic buff to that (poor) skill there. And even if they did have a combat and PvP team, what exactly are they going to do with what direction the game has gone: a tiny population on a big map and gameplay dominated by proc sets / generic effects that are easily sourced to any of the 12 players in an organized group?
With the scribing system, any player on any role can use the healing burst effect to shield/heal (stack), purge, and buff their entire group. Sure it's effective and the sort of group coordinated gameplay that is in a vacuum good. But this sort of coordination in every other RPG is restrictive to a specific role (i.e., damage dealers could not heal/buff the group), which not only offers the organized group unparalleled flexibility absent in other RPGs, but raw power that non organized groups will not have access to (i.e., PuGs will not be sharing the shield/purge/buff with each other). Hybridization similarly opened the door for groups to easily access power they did not have before (e.g., as a DPS in say 2016, I have 2 swords + Destro bar back in the day, so no vigor, no cross heals, no buffs, nothing contributing to the group except damage). This is not getting changed. It can only possibly be mitigated through some contrived effects that a motivated combat team would have to think hard and long about, only to put a dent in.
The other insuperable problem in the population size. With it so small, all it takes is one good organized group to hold a server virtual hostage. PuGs must overwhelm these groups by sheer force and, well, there just aren't that many PuGs around. ZOS has shown it cant/wont address performance to begin discussions of raising the caps, and won;t even bother telling us the results of their pop cap test 8 months ago.
The reality is this, when you on the map with so few other players, that means the amount of times you get pulled into an organized group's kill zone where you instantly die is going to be far too many times. That this actual mechanic is a central part of the ESO Cyrodiil experience (i.e., losing absolutely control over your character TWICE and dying without any recourse - two mechanics that have been pounded into the heads of all would be RPG game-masters to avoid since the genre came about in the 1970s), just shows how unwilling ZOS is consider, let alone invest, in ways to make PvP a more enjoyable and inclusive experienceEdited by Joy_Division on 29 July 2024 19:055 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JustLovely wrote: »Bammlschwamml wrote: »At some point in time ZOS realized that housing gives the most return for the least effort.
PvP isn't going to get any changes that will attract more players.
Clearly, Zenimax makes more money off of housing. PvP has no direct monetization while housing has a ton of monetization. Housing is likely a cash cow.
Except, per capita, it's the hardcore PvP players that spend the most on the game, not the casuals who spend hours alone playing house.
Of course since PvP has so many cash/crown sinks and housing lacks monetization.
Oh wait, it is the other way around since PvP is free and has no direct monetization.
Direct monetization again...
And then we add commercials and product placement?
Maybe start a crowfunding campaign too?
Pvp is not free. It's part of a game we bought, and keep paying for with eso+, dlcs and the crown store. The game has been financed already. There is no excuse for it not to work.
Exactly. When people try to claim that the PvP crowd aren't some of the biggest spenders in the game it just shows how little they know about the PvP player population.
What's killing Cyrodiil PvP is the insanely, unjustifiably low population caps. It's ZOS limiting their own success.
Their comment was in reply to what I said. I never said that there were no PvP payers that were big spenders. I did state the fact that there is no direct monetization of PvP. After purchasing the base game no further expenditures were required.
0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bammlschwamml wrote: »Lost me on commercials, product placement, and crowdfunding, as they are not part of ESO.
PvP costs nothing after purchasing the base game. None of the other items mentioned are required to PvP so they cannot be considered direct monetization by any stretch of the definition. That is the factual comment I made.
Housing also costs nothing after purchasing the base game. Nothing you can buy in the crown store is required to play house...
I don't care about "direct monetization". It's not necessary, and it can harm the game. Just like ingame commercials, product placement or any other attempt to squeeze out more money.
True. I never said that someone could not do housing without spending money. I did say there was direct monetization of housing since a large portion of the houses can only be obtained via crowns, and there are a lot of furnishings added regularly that are only available via the crown store.
That is direct monetization. Zenimax gains significant revenue from housing every quarter. They would not be adding crown-exclusive housing items at such a pace if they did not. There is nothing comparable for PvP.
Edited by Amottica on 30 July 2024 02:151 -
xFocused✭✭✭✭PvP in general for ESO is just atrociously bad right now. Cyrodiil is a laggy, buggy, stale mess where 95% of the time the intended mechanics never work properly. Stuck in combat bugs are gamebreaking, players are getting booted off the server on current gen consoles, skills don't fire half the time and server performance in general is just bad.
The current meta isn't really helping either with everyone maining sorcs that can outheal and outstreak everything and everyone not to mention everyone is a tank with 45-50k health, lol, you have the Hammer artifact that servers no purpose unless it's to create more lag and encourage players to drop the thing to their buddies on another alliance and the rewards just aren't all that great for all the stress and gamebreaking bugs we deal with.
I see people in here saying "PvP doesn't make any money.." yet I bet most of us have ESO+ and we (stupidly) buy crates and other items from the crown store so technically, PvP does make money, just not in the way they'd probably like to.
All in all, if Zos would take the time to actually address all the issues and actually listen to the players, they could have one of the PvP games on the marketVENDETTA || https://www.youtube.com/@x_-Focused1 -
JustLovely✭✭✭✭✭JustLovely wrote: »Bammlschwamml wrote: »At some point in time ZOS realized that housing gives the most return for the least effort.
PvP isn't going to get any changes that will attract more players.
Clearly, Zenimax makes more money off of housing. PvP has no direct monetization while housing has a ton of monetization. Housing is likely a cash cow.
Except, per capita, it's the hardcore PvP players that spend the most on the game, not the casuals who spend hours alone playing house.
Of course since PvP has so many cash/crown sinks and housing lacks monetization.
Oh wait, it is the other way around since PvP is free and has no direct monetization.
Direct monetization again...
And then we add commercials and product placement?
Maybe start a crowfunding campaign too?
Pvp is not free. It's part of a game we bought, and keep paying for with eso+, dlcs and the crown store. The game has been financed already. There is no excuse for it not to work.
Exactly. When people try to claim that the PvP crowd aren't some of the biggest spenders in the game it just shows how little they know about the PvP player population.
What's killing Cyrodiil PvP is the insanely, unjustifiably low population caps. It's ZOS limiting their own success.
Their comment was in reply to what I said. I never said that there were no PvP payers that were big spenders. I did state the fact that there is no direct monetization of PvP. After purchasing the base game no further expenditures were required.
Except there is direct monetization of PvP. ZOS puts PvP oriented sets in every new release so PvP players have to buy the latest expansions to have access to the best gear for PvP. This has been pointed out by other posters and I'm certain you will discount this in some convoluted way, but it's the fact.5