Why adjust arctic blast but not polar wind?

darvaria · July 15

WHY NERF Polar or Artic?

STOP nerfing. Just make some of these off the wall never used skills stronger IF you think you've got to change things. I'm sick of having to change after every update.

Turtle_Bot · July 15

MATH_COW wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhADMGA6Ro

Wait, was that a 20k burst heal ? oh, and I forgot to clip the 5k crit hot tics from it. Oh and it heals others ?

Ah yeah showing me the power of a crit heal, which basically mean something that doesn't happen 100% of the time and saying "otherS" when in reality it's just ONE other person at a time in a short radius around you. Fallacious argument.

20k is not a crit heal from a support warden, crit heals on a proper support warden are 30k+ in pvp (closer to 35k at the top end). 20k is the average non-crit heal from a support warden. There's a reason 1 support/healer warden can prevent a team in BGs from ever dying even if both other teams gang up on the team with the healer.

Turtle_Bot · July 15

Polar is insanely overtuned and has been for ages, especially since it is also a cross heal that also has a vigor level HoT attached to it.

Arctic on the other hand was in a fine spot and didn't need this proposed nerf.
The heal was fine, the stun was delayed and not an issue at all and the damage over time was a nice bonus. Literally zero reason to touch the arctic blast morph, especially when leaving polar untouched.

The change to arctic combined with the change to piercing cold passive is a nerf to 1 form of warden and ONLY that 1 form of warden: arctic blast DDs that had ~33-35k health (when buffed by minor toughness).

2H Polar wardens lost barely any damage (2%, oh no, anyway) because they weren't bothering with frost staff front bar and they gained 12% block mitigation making them even tankier, on top of this, polar has gone completely untouched. Polar wardens in PvP will maybe drop from 45-50k health to 44-49k health to get back their 2% damage or they'll just ignore the change entirely since it's such a miniscule loss.

darvaria · July 15

You have to have higher health in PVP so you don't VD everyone around you. I get hit by 15K fate carvers. Nothing else hits that hard except Oils .... 22K and vicious death. You don't have a chance without 35K plus health. I won't even group because I avoid being around players with less than 30K health. They will VD anyone around.

Yeah they just want any class other than their own nerfed.

Well, nerf Aracnist Fatecarver.

xylena_lazarow · July 15

darvaria wrote: »

Well, nerf Aracnist Fatecarver.

Have you tried moving?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

20k is not a crit heal from a support warden, crit heals on a proper support warden are 30k+ in pvp (closer to 35k at the top end). 20k is the average non-crit heal from a support warden.

Running 42k Warden DD in Cyro, all offense other than the 64 hp, no healing investment, highest Polar crits were around 16k. So I'm not sure how you're getting above that without investment, but it does illustrate Polar's design problems. Investment double dips, making you more tanky while also making your Polar bigger. The HoT component is more egregious to me than the burst, as we all know the gameplay problems caused by HoT stacking.

React wrote: »

But tanks providing the strongest cross healing in PVP is extremely problematic.

A good way to sum it up. I miss when this game had soft caps to prevent degenerate minmaxing.

MATH_COW · July 15

React wrote: »

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

I just say that showing a crit heal as an argument is fallacious there as crit heal is dependant of chance and that zero polar wind healer will ever reach at least 50% crit rate, they will barely got 25% and that's only if they got the buff (so using lotus or oak)

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhADMGA6Ro

Wait, was that a 20k burst heal ? oh, and I forgot to clip the 5k crit hot tics from it. Oh and it heals others ?

Ah yeah showing me the power of a crit heal, which basically mean something that doesn't happen 100% of the time and saying "otherS" when in reality it's just ONE other person at a time in a short radius around you. Fallacious argument.

20k is not a crit heal from a support warden, crit heals on a proper support warden are 30k+ in pvp (closer to 35k at the top end). 20k is the average non-crit heal from a support warden. There's a reason 1 support/healer warden can prevent a team in BGs from ever dying even if both other teams gang up on the team with the healer.

On the video I was answering it was, when your heal number get a ! that mean it's a crit heal.
And as I said bellow for the other answer, Polar Wind healer doesn't get a lot of crit rate.

-

React wrote: »

I play warden, and have on and off since it launched in morrowind. I enjoy playing warden in small scale.

There is nothing "fun" about polar wind, unless you're abusing it to make yourself and your friends unkillable. It is extremely imbalanced.

That's just the goal of a healer, that's just complaining about a specific way to be a healer that is efficient on little group but less in larger group, as the same way I saw someone doing that with Mends Wound from psijic skill line.

If you don't find that fun that's fine, but don't ask for a nerf because it makes people "unkillable" when all the PvP is about being stupidly unkillable anyway. Stop aiming at Polar Wind stupidly, mostly when the nerf you want gonna impact a lot the PvE aspect of the skill.

If there is anything to change this is the cross healing in PvP and not specific skills that do good job.

CameraBeardThePirate · July 15

MATH_COW wrote: »

If you don't find that fun that's fine, but don't ask for a nerf because it makes people "unkillable" when all the PvP is about being stupidly unkillable anyway. Stop aiming at Polar Wind stupidly, mostly when the nerf you want gonna impact a lot the PvE aspect of the skill.

Lol what? This is the most circular reasoning I've ever seen.

The only reason PvP is "about being stupidly unkillable" is because of overpowered heals like Polar Wind, Hardened Ward, Barrier Spam, and Cross Heal stacking. People want polar to be nerfed so that PvP is less tanky. You cannot argue that nerfing polar wouldn't make PvP less tanky, because it would. Yes, there are other heals that contribute to the tanky meta too, but arguing that Polar shouldn't be changed because those other heals exist is just another example of Whataboutism and is not a valid argument.

And besides, the proposed nerf is to make it a self heal only, which would not impact the ability of PvE tanks to stay alive.

MATH_COW · July 15

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

If you don't find that fun that's fine, but don't ask for a nerf because it makes people "unkillable" when all the PvP is about being stupidly unkillable anyway. Stop aiming at Polar Wind stupidly, mostly when the nerf you want gonna impact a lot the PvE aspect of the skill.

Lol what? This is the most circular reasoning I've ever seen.

The only reason PvP is "about being stupidly unkillable" is because of overpowered heals like Polar Wind, Hardened Ward, Barrier Spam, and Cross Heal stacking. People want polar to be nerfed so that PvP is less tanky. You cannot argue that nerfing polar wouldn't make PvP less tanky, because it would. Yes, there are other heals that contribute to the tanky meta too, but arguing that Polar shouldn't be changed because those other heals exist is just another example of Whataboutism and is not a valid argument.

And besides, the proposed nerf is to make it a self heal only, which would not impact the ability of PvE tanks to stay alive.

So this is better to nerf each skill one per one without giving a *** about how it would impact their PvE aspect rather than working on adding a cross heal debuff on combat spirit for exemple.

And yeah the proposed nerf would impact the PvE, of course warden tank would be able to stay alive but would lose his unique ability to help/save group mate in hard moment.

For Dungeons and trials that ability allow them to have something special when they are barely a joke as a tank.
Even if they got a skill tree about tanking, they bring nothing special for the group which make them be the less intesting class to have as tank on the "top tier" tank.
We got minor vulnerability and minor brittle? Well not both in same time (or all the time for both) and for brittle it's not that easy to maintain when Arcanist got a skill that apply both of them without the need of a ice staff active and for longer.
Necro can apply major vulnerability with their ultimate in a better way that we can apply brittle with permafrost.

So yeah remove the healing ally of Polar Wind and warden will just be a tank that can survive easy because of a good selfheal but bring nothing, not even a way to support heal in group. And mostly for Archive Duo run.
(For a specific exemple that would kill my ability to help a lot on the tombs of HM sunspire)

robpr · July 15

I don't get why it Arctic Blast has to do some mental gymnastics for heal to occur, why not make the heal base of damage done instead?

Then you could change the damage scaling of offensive stats instead of max health something like Burning Embers

Alchimiste1 · July 15

MATH_COW wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhADMGA6Ro

Wait, was that a 20k burst heal ? oh, and I forgot to clip the 5k crit hot tics from it. Oh and it heals others ?

Ah yeah showing me the power of a crit heal, which basically mean something that doesn't happen 100% of the time and saying "otherS" when in reality it's just ONE other person at a time in a short radius around you. Fallacious argument.

The power of a crit heal ? Lmao. Well yes ofc I’m showing how much it crit for. how is that disingenuous.

By others I meant anyone around not one person specifically which is why I said others.

20k burst heal that hits 2 people and provides a hot that’s basically a second vigor.
I have power assault and no other 5 piece in that video , you can scale it higher.

The issue isn’t that some 32k health damage dealer is out there running around with polar wind. It’s that it’s so easy to build into health and stack polar winds and have insane layered hots / burst healing.

I would like to see either polar wind be a self heal only or place a cap on the health scaling of it.

Point is, they went after the wrong morph of a skill

Turtle_Bot · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

darvaria wrote: »

Well, nerf Aracnist Fatecarver.

Have you tried moving?

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

20k is not a crit heal from a support warden, crit heals on a proper support warden are 30k+ in pvp (closer to 35k at the top end). 20k is the average non-crit heal from a support warden.

Running 42k Warden DD in Cyro, all offense other than the 64 hp, no healing investment, highest Polar crits were around 16k. So I'm not sure how you're getting above that without investment, but it does illustrate Polar's design problems. Investment double dips, making you more tanky while also making your Polar bigger. The HoT component is more egregious to me than the burst, as we all know the gameplay problems caused by HoT stacking.

The 30-35k crit polars were from a 50k health support warden (as stated in my comment), which is what was being talked about.

Most DD wardens I know of that use polar tend to sit around 45k health (slightly above your 42k health) without giving up any damage for it, so they tend to get closer to 17-18k polars quite frequently. Especially going for dizzy (or recently frost crushing shock for range).

This is definitely the whole design issue with polar.

The HoT part is definitely a big part of the issue, like I said, a resolving Vigor like HoT as a bonus effect on what is already the strongest heal in the game is way out of line. Especially since it is a cross heal that stacks with itself if you have more than 1 warden in the group.

Turtle_Bot · July 16

MATH_COW wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

MATH_COW wrote: »

All I see in this topic is people that don't play or even know Warden who don't want to listen people that play the class they want to nerf lol

Ah yes, nothing wrong with Polar wind. Absolutely nothing at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZhADMGA6Ro

Wait, was that a 20k burst heal ? oh, and I forgot to clip the 5k crit hot tics from it. Oh and it heals others ?

Ah yeah showing me the power of a crit heal, which basically mean something that doesn't happen 100% of the time and saying "otherS" when in reality it's just ONE other person at a time in a short radius around you. Fallacious argument.

20k is not a crit heal from a support warden, crit heals on a proper support warden are 30k+ in pvp (closer to 35k at the top end). 20k is the average non-crit heal from a support warden. There's a reason 1 support/healer warden can prevent a team in BGs from ever dying even if both other teams gang up on the team with the healer.

On the video I was answering it was, when your heal number get a ! that mean it's a crit heal.
And as I said bellow for the other answer, Polar Wind healer doesn't get a lot of crit rate.

The video you were answering was showing a warden with essentially no build equipped (as explained by the videos poster) getting a 20k crit heal.

A support polar warden is easily crit healing for 30k+ heals with it's non-crit heals regularly surpassing the 20k crit heal shown in that video.

Polar wind healer doesn't need a high crit rate, it's non-crit heals already outheal the example crit heal shown in that video, getting a crit heal on top of that is completely unneeded but still happens frequently.

VixxVexx · July 16

Here we go again. This ability has had so many weird iterations. Personally I think Polar and Arctic shouldn't be heals at all, but we're not getting full redesigns at this stage of the game's lifecycle. Just revert Arctic and nerf Polar.

You could make Budding Seeds a viable heal, you know the one in the healing tree with all the healing passives. Arctic and Polar should be mainly CC-focused abilities (with frost dots) which Warden sorely lacks. Sort of like an Ice Prison stun which you'd expect in a frost skill line. But hey, let's keep this abomination and add it to the list of dead skills.

moderatelyfatman · July 16

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

In stead of the weirdness they are doing to arctic wind, they should just make it the heal that also heals teammates and scale off offensive power; and make the high health one just a self heal. Tank or healer choice rather than trying to make one both tank and heal, and the other some conditional cluster of identity crisis.

I definitely think that every class should have a health based tank heal for PvE tanking. However, giving the same amount to another player is ridiculous.

They should replace this second aspect with some uncommon low level buff.

Galeriano2 · July 16

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

They don't do the "same" thing with scribing though. Polar is an undeniably stronger heal than any of the scribing heals.

Highest Polar at 42k hp was around 16k, while highest Healing Contingency has been around 13k on my NB, the HoT is much lower, but it also gives a unique Affix buff and hits the whole group when stacked, not just one ally. Sure it's not as strong as Polar, it's definitely a nerf, you're still not getting rid of cross healing Wardens anytime soon.

The issue with polar wind is not the heal value itself but the fact it scales from max HP. Yes You can bring other cross healing abiliites to similar values but not as a 45-50k+ HP tank.

xylena_lazarow · July 16

@Galeriano2 @Turtle_Bot nobody was arguing that the hp scaling isn't a problem. Talking in these threads I have realized that Polar does have problems on Warden DD also, namely the cross HoT stacking, which should go. However, I likely wouldn't use Polar at all if it was solely a self heal, when I could use a generic Scribing skill that does cross heal.

YandereGirlfriend · July 16

IMO, Health-scaling heals are inherently toxic and should be deleted on every class.

(Sorry PvE tanks but that's what your healer is for.)

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

IMO, Health-scaling heals are inherently toxic and should be deleted on every class.

(Sorry PvE tanks but that's what your healer is for.)

Uh...no. There are way too many scenarios where entire PVE fights are designed around tanks being able to sustain themselves, including healing. Couple that with the healing nerfs some time ago, and this change would be horrendous for PVE.

YandereGirlfriend · July 16

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

IMO, Health-scaling heals are inherently toxic and should be deleted on every class.

(Sorry PvE tanks but that's what your healer is for.)

Uh...no. There are way too many scenarios where entire PVE fights are designed around tanks being able to sustain themselves, including healing. Couple that with the healing nerfs some time ago, and this change would be horrendous for PVE.

Yeah, I knew someone was going to say this. But that sounds more like bad design in those encounters if you ask me. Healers are already optional in much of the game's content and here we have tanks obviating even more of their role.

Skjaldbjorn · July 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

IMO, Health-scaling heals are inherently toxic and should be deleted on every class.

(Sorry PvE tanks but that's what your healer is for.)

Uh...no. There are way too many scenarios where entire PVE fights are designed around tanks being able to sustain themselves, including healing. Couple that with the healing nerfs some time ago, and this change would be horrendous for PVE.

Yeah, I knew someone was going to say this. But that sounds more like bad design in those encounters if you ask me. Healers are already optional in much of the game's content and here we have tanks obviating even more of their role.

Yes and no. Healers still keep the group alive. There's some content, particularly dungeons, where DPS and tanks can levy enough outgoing healing to make healers obsolete. That's true. In trial content, it varies pretty wildly. Take Reef Guardian for example. If you have enough raw DPS, sure, you can sweat through that fight with a single healer and be just fine. However, if your DPS is below that threshold, good luck trying to do that fight with a single healer lmao

React · July 16

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

IMO, Health-scaling heals are inherently toxic and should be deleted on every class.

(Sorry PvE tanks but that's what your healer is for.)

Just to be clear, I'm only suggesting that this skill become a self heal without any further changes to it.

While I tend to agree with you, that nearly every health scaling heal/shield is bad for the game in a PVP sense, I understand the need for it on the PVE side of the game.

Simply changing this skill to a self heal only allows the PVE tanks to keep their self healing, and solves the PVP issue of absurd crosshealing being generated from 40-60k HP players via this skill.

Theist_VII · August 4

Kind of weird this thread got buried when it’s still relevant.

The wrong morph of the skill was changed, and Polar Wind needed the nerf, not Arctic Blast. Can’t help but feel there was a miscommunication somewhere which ultimately led to this.

ESO_Nightingale · August 4

Theist_VII wrote: »

Kind of weird this thread got buried when it’s still relevant.

The wrong morph of the skill was changed, and Polar Wind needed the nerf, not Arctic Blast. Can’t help but feel there was a miscommunication somewhere which ultimately led to this.

Maybe its the people saying "arctic wind" or "arctic blast" every time they mean very specifically polar wind due to it's hp scaling and healing allies.

katemedina666 · August 6

Yes, it was the fourth week of testing, the developers still didn't give a damn about the opinion of half the players.. You (Wardens) can't have the best of everything in the world (for some reason, Sorcs and NBs have it, oh well). Personally, I don't like Warden's skills with s*icidal animals at all as a concept, and the frost mage was more interesting. Now for me it means that I'll have to abandon another developed character, thanks for wasting my time!
People, just think that this is a class that is offered to be bought separately, like necro... It's a shame

ESO_Nightingale · August 7

katemedina666 wrote: »

Yes, it was the fourth week of testing, the developers still didn't give a damn about the opinion of half the players.. You (Wardens) can't have the best of everything in the world (for some reason, Sorcs and NBs have it, oh well). Personally, I don't like Warden's skills with s*icidal animals at all as a concept, and the frost mage was more interesting. Now for me it means that I'll have to abandon another developed character, thanks for wasting my time!
People, just think that this is a class that is offered to be bought separately, like necro... It's a shame

I had hoped zos was going to listen to our feedback. Nope lol, lesson should have been learned when they scuffed blastbones. At this point i just hope they implement what they did for piercing cold onto the frost staff version of ancient knowledge next patch and let frost staff dps exist as a concept in general and not tacked onto warden. Frost dps arcanist and necromancer are legitimate possibilities now if they let it exist with piercing cold ruling.

katemedina666 · August 7

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I had hoped zos was going to listen to our feedback. Nope lol, lesson should have been learned when they scuffed blastbones. At this point i just hope they implement what they did for piercing cold onto the frost staff version of ancient knowledge next patch and let frost staff dps exist as a concept in general and not tacked onto warden. Frost dps arcanist and necromancer are legitimate possibilities now if they let it exist with piercing cold ruling.

So if I don't buy the chapter with scribing, I have to suffer? The plan is not very good... But apparently ZOS really wants it.)))

Ishtarknows · August 7

[quote="xylena_lazarow;c-8149411
They could start by removing the ally HoT and/or making Polar choose between yourself and your ally like every other burst heal.[/quote]

Just like Breath of Life and Twilight Matriarch right?

xylena_lazarow · August 8

Ishtarknows wrote: »

Just like Breath of Life and Twilight Matriarch right?

Yeah that's one of many options. If they made it self heal only, it would be replaced by a generic Scribing skill. I'm in favor of nerfing the overperforming cross heal to the level of generic cross heals, but not less than that. Our ideas for solving Polar Wind are ultimately just fanfiction though, the important part is we communicate the problem to the devs.

monkiie · August 8

The devs simply do not play their own game. Take one step into cyrodiil for one hour and you'll find out how problematic polar wind is. No cross heal in the game should scale off max health, it's just not healthy for the game.

It's very clear that a certain dev thats responsible for combat changes in pvp, only plays one class.