ZOS what is YOUR problem with WEREWOLF?! (balance change review)

Wuuffyy

I'm not going to be very "nice" on this one. I'm frankly tired of my feedback being ignored and werewolf just picked up the recent necro treatment.

Werewolf is underperforming HORRIBLY in both PvE and PvP in EVERY aspect and has been NEGLECTED for years w/ LITTLE to NO balance changes. Now, on the precipice of the BIGGEST BALANCING THREAT to werewolf; you provide NOTHING BUT NERFS for the already, well-agreed-on, suffering spec.

Below, I'm going to give you the "feedback" that you LOVE to ignore as if you'll do ANYTHING about it...

1) Werewolf Transformation:

This Ultimate and its morphs' Light and Heavy Attacks now deal Bleed Damage, rather than Physical.
These attacks now have a chance to apply their status effect (now Hemorrhaging), with Light Attacks at 3%, partially charged Heavy Attacks at 5%, and fully charged Heavy Attacks at 10%.

Feedback: You just gave this the executioner treatment. While it wasn't that grand for executioner; NEARLY EVERY WEREWOLF is a SORC for REQUIRED EFFIENCY.

This means that, for ONLY A LITTLE status effect chance, you just nerfed our basic attacks by 5% (sorc is 5% damage towards PHYSICAL).

We already get a GUARANTEED BLEED off of our 'pounce' skill and this little status chance w/ a damage nerf DOES NOT HELP w/ overall damage with the basic damage loss AT ALL TIMES.

2) Roar:

This ability and the Ferocious Roar morph now apply a unique debuff called "Terrified" to enemies they hit for 10 seconds. Terrified doesn't do anything outright other than place a tracking effect on enemies, to help Werewolves mark their prey.

Deafening Roar (morph): This morph now grants Major Protection for slotting, rather than Major Prophecy and Savagery. While slotted, it also causes your Heavy Attacks to taunt enemies for 15 seconds.

Feedback: clarity error

For the "tank morph" YOU HAVE TO HEAVY ATTACK TO TANK ie LEAVE YOURSELF OPEN, AND you give up YOUR MAJOR CRIT BUFF (bye-bye tri-pot??? didn't need that on a tank).

So we don't get TERRIFIED on the PvP damage morph of this skill (loss of 10% on spammable; and w/ off-balance being up only 1/3 of the time)... NO BUFF ON OUR MAIN SPAMMABLE as a result of these 'roar' changes AND/OR LOSS OF OUR IMPORTANT CRIT BUFF for PvP survivability/PEN BUFF for PvP damage.

3) Piercing Howl:

This ability and its morphs no longer deal 10% bonus damage to enemies that are facing them, and instead deal 10% bonus damage to enemies that are Terrified.

Howl of Agony (morph):
This morph now adds an additional 10% bonus damage to off balance enemies, stacking up to 20% when they are also Terrified, rather than dealing 25% to enemies that are facing you or are feared.
This morph now also ranks up with cost reduction, rather than ranking up the bonus damage effect.

Howl of Despair: Extended the duration of the buffs granted by Feeding Frenzy to 20 seconds, up from 10.

Feedback: Once again, for ALL THAT AREN'T AWARE or KEEN ON MATH, here is what's happening here:

You went from a 25% damage increase with the ONLY stipulation being YOUR ENEMY IS FACING you to...
...You HAVE TO USE ROAR (only one morph counts) on your target for a 10 SECOND DEBUFF to get 10% and then they ALSO HAVE TO BE OFF-BALANCE which can only happen AT-MOST 33% OF THE TIME.

So you essentially run around w/ LESS THAN HALF THE POTENCY OF THIS MOVE ORIGINALLY for more than 2/3 OF THE TIME. (and the OVERALL BUFF can only reach 20% now with ALL OF THE STIPULATIONS).

---SO TO RECAP---

-We have lost considerable damage on our light attacks FOR A SMALL BLEED CHANCE w/ a spec that can GUARANTEE IT ON A SKILL.

-clarity error OUR CRIT BUFF, for the horrible ability to tank WHILE LEAVING OURSELFVES OPEN via HEAVY ATTACKING to PERFORM A BASIC TANKING ACTION (very punishing in tank-centric fights).

-AND worst of all, we have LOST MORE DAMAGE, with MORE CONDITIONS being required to GET WHAT'S LEFT.

Werewolf is struggling w/ sustain, survivability, and damage IN THAT ORDER. It's a horribly inefficient spec where, with the nerf to defile, BRINGS ALMOST NOTHING TO THE TABLE. It needs BUFFS to combat SCRIBING and yet it received NOTHING BUT NERFS in a set of "TANKING" changes that remove its crit buff AND damage on its spammable(what... JUST WHAT?!?!)

It needs buffs, very badly and we can nearly, all agree. THE LAST THING werewolf needs right now are OUTRIGHT NERFS. The addition of major protection, and the ability to heavy attack is great step in the right direction, but once again CANNOT come with OUTRIGHT NERFS to EVERY OTHER PLAYSTYLE (and then also still require heavy attacks to taunt as well)

I have played this game for a very long time, I cannot continue to do this to myself. It's just a game, and I understand that; but it's a game that's grown w/ me as a person. It's the only half-decent game that lets me play werewolf BY MYSELF (A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE TO PLAY THE GAME BY THEMSELVES AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO EFFICIENTLY).

I'm pleading to ZOS to listen to OUR FEEDBACK for once and MAKE POSITIVE CHANGES before the PTS IS OVER> Other werewolf players, PLEASE post here in support.

↓↓↓ Screenshots w/ clear evidence of nerfs attached below, CLEAR EVIDENCE OF THE NERFS via CMX parsing COURTESY OF OUR VERY OWN ERICKSON, and some suggestions to make low-effort changes w/in the current patch and change parameters↓↓↓

Wuuffyy

Clear evidence of nerfs via CMX before and after from the werewolf- Erickson9610

Erickson9610 wrote: »

On Live, I was able to hit 107k DPS with Werewolf:


After the changes to Werewolf on the PTS, I'm only just barely able to hit 100k with the same setup:


Howl of Agony did 29k DPS (27.4% overall) on Live, but it now only does 25k DPS (25.8% overall) on Week 1 of the U42 PTS.


The rotation on Live prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x5) --> repeat.

The rotation on the PTS prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x3) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> repeat.


The changes to Piercing Howl and Roar require Werewolf damage dealers to burn GCDs debuffing with Ferocious Roar, which lowers DPS compared to Live, not to mention that the total bonus damage of Howl of Agony was lowered from 25% to 20% with perfect conditions. The drop in damage is significant.

As someone who plays Werewolf in PvE as well as in PvP, can something be done to give Werewolf back some of the damage it lacks? This update is going to punish PvE Werewolf damage dealers, and it'll undoubtedly make Werewolf's burst in PvP much less effective.

Some suggestions to make quick-changes to fit w/in the current patch

Light and heavy attacks: For now- how about w/ keep the light and heavy attacks as physical damage and retain the 'bleed chance'? It's an amazing thematical change though I ultimately am still ripping them apart and causing physical damage to bleed them. (this until we add a passive 'bleed damage' buff to a class)

Roar skill: Especially since the werewolf 'mark' doesn't actually add a visual indicator to anything/ take nightblades out stealth; can we add 'terrified' to both morphs of the skill?

To make adding additional werewolves still viable, how about we make the Ferocious roar morph actually 'mark' nightblades for a very short time like a detect pot/mark for the user-only OR share that heavy attack speed buff w/ other werewolves nearby?

I think the major protection is a great trade-off for the crit buff and should remain. You can source the crit from somewhere else (pots/Oakensoul) as an efficiency exchange.

Howl skill: Can we try to allow this to maintain some of its original efficiency so it doesn't equal out as a huge damage decrease?

For example, for the 'howl of agony' morph, how about we take the values of the terrified damage buff+off balance damage buff from 10%/10% to either 12%/12% (right under old efficiency at maximum value), OR 15%/15% (a small buff as a reward for additional micromanagement/potential downtime).

Beyond this, what if we gave the off-balance buff the stuhn's set treatment and it gave you that buff for 'x' amount of time after hitting an off-balance enemy?

Screenshots of nerfs///comparisons:

Evidence of the passive (LIGHT/HEAVY ATTACK damage) we're losing on sorcs (majority of werewolves) for a TINY BIT of bleed status effect chance (3% for a LIGHT ATTACK):



Before and after of 'Howl of Agony' (straight nerf, depending on your 'roar' morph; absolutely no additional damage of any sort 66% of the time)

before-



after-



Our 'new' PvP roar morph no longer containing the major crit buff OR the new 'terrified' debuff to retain some of our 'howl' damage (which was free prior)



And... what we gave it all up for: the ability to tank WITH HEAVY ATTACKS, and a 'mark' (THIS DOESN'T ACTUALLY MARK ANYTHING. IT'S JUST ANOTHER ANNOYING DEBUFF TO KEEP UP w/ a SHORT UPTIME and is also PURIFIABLE).

tomofhyrule

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions. Especially considering things like the changes to Roar and Howl.

In both cases, the notes don't say "we deleted all of the things that skill did and replaced it," it just says "added X to the skill." The way I read it, it's that the new thing was coming in addition to what it was doing before. For example, if Deafening Roar will allow heavies to taunt and give passive Protection (instead of savagery as it is currently), but it doesn't say that it removed the active component of the skill that gave the AoE Breach. The way I read it, that's still there.

I believe we will need to see, but I don't see them removing the current skills in order to add these components.

Wuuffyy

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions. Especially considering things like the changes to Roar and Howl.

In both cases, the notes don't say "we deleted all of the things that skill did and replaced it," it just says "added X to the skill." The way I read it, it's that the new thing was coming in addition to what it was doing before. For example, if Deafening Roar will allow heavies to taunt and give passive Protection (instead of savagery as it is currently), but it doesn't say that it removed the active component of the skill that gave the AoE Breach. The way I read it, that's still there.

I believe we will need to see, but I don't see them removing the current skills in order to add these components.

I'm reading this as is. It's very concise in what it's telling us: "adds an additional 10% bonus damage to off balance enemies, stacking up to 20% when they are also Terrified, rather than dealing 25%".

The off balance does not exist on any of the other iterations of this skill. And then they take it one-step further for clarity by say "tacking up to 20% (total damage) when they are also Terrified" (Terrified apparently is not even on the 'roar' morph that we use in PvP).

I have access to PTS, though is this truly a question that ZOS would make changes like this? The other morph obviously allows you to tank if you for-go major fracture. Very short-sighted.

tomofhyrule

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions. Especially considering things like the changes to Roar and Howl.

In both cases, the notes don't say "we deleted all of the things that skill did and replaced it," it just says "added X to the skill." The way I read it, it's that the new thing was coming in addition to what it was doing before. For example, if Deafening Roar will allow heavies to taunt and give passive Protection (instead of savagery as it is currently), but it doesn't say that it removed the active component of the skill that gave the AoE Breach. The way I read it, that's still there.

I believe we will need to see, but I don't see them removing the current skills in order to add these components.

I'm reading this as is. It's very concise in what it's telling us: "adds an additional 10% bonus damage to off balance enemies, stacking up to 20% when they are also Terrified, rather than dealing 25%".

The off balance does not exist on any of the other iterations of this skill. And then they take it one-step further for clarity by say "tacking up to 20% (total damage) when they are also Terrified.

I have access to PTS, though is this truly a question that ZOS would make changes like this? The other morph obviously allows you to tank if you for-go major fracture. Very short-sighted.

From the way it reads, it's designed that Roar and Howl will synergize.

Roar applies fear and Off Balance, and on PTS will also give Terrified in addition to the above. Howl will start with a 10% bonus to Terrified enemies instead of facing enemies (which means that you need to start with a Roar and then Howl), but then it goes to 20% with the morph. This does look like a damage decrease, but possibly more likely to proc (especially for DPS players who are behind the boss instead of in front of it).

Again, we need to wait for the PTS to see the specifics. I do not doubt you have the PTS, but considering the server is still closed at this time, there's nobody who is able to see the tooltips in game yet.

Wuuffyy

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions. Especially considering things like the changes to Roar and Howl.

In both cases, the notes don't say "we deleted all of the things that skill did and replaced it," it just says "added X to the skill." The way I read it, it's that the new thing was coming in addition to what it was doing before. For example, if Deafening Roar will allow heavies to taunt and give passive Protection (instead of savagery as it is currently), but it doesn't say that it removed the active component of the skill that gave the AoE Breach. The way I read it, that's still there.

I believe we will need to see, but I don't see them removing the current skills in order to add these components.

I'm reading this as is. It's very concise in what it's telling us: "adds an additional 10% bonus damage to off balance enemies, stacking up to 20% when they are also Terrified, rather than dealing 25%".

The off balance does not exist on any of the other iterations of this skill. And then they take it one-step further for clarity by say "tacking up to 20% (total damage) when they are also Terrified.

I have access to PTS, though is this truly a question that ZOS would make changes like this? The other morph obviously allows you to tank if you for-go major fracture. Very short-sighted.

From the way it reads, it's designed that Roar and Howl will synergize.

Roar applies fear and Off Balance, and on PTS will also give Terrified in addition to the above. Howl will start with a 10% bonus to Terrified enemies instead of facing enemies (which means that you need to start with a Roar and then Howl), but then it goes to 20% with the morph. This does look like a damage decrease, but possibly more likely to proc (especially for DPS players who are behind the boss instead of in front of it).

Again, we need to wait for the PTS to see the specifics. I do not doubt you have the PTS, but considering the server is still closed at this time, there's nobody who is able to see the tooltips in game yet.

No problem! I will post it here as soon as it clears and I'm available to do so.

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Werewolf Transformation:
This Ultimate and its morphs' Light and Heavy Attacks now deal Bleed Damage, rather than Physical.
These attacks now have a chance to apply their status effect (now Hemorrhaging), with Light Attacks at 3%, partially charged Heavy Attacks at 5%, and fully charged Heavy Attacks at 10%.

Feedback: You just gave this the executioner treatment. While it wasn't that grand for executioner; NEARLY EVERY WEREWOLF is a SORC for REQUIRED EFFIENCY. This means that, for ONLY A LITTLE status effect chance, you just nerfed our basic attacks by 5% (sorc is 5% damage towards PHYSICAL). We already get a GUARANTEED BLEED off of our 8-9k stam pounce (2 casts) and this little status chance w/ a damage nerf DOES NOT HELP.

Not every Werewolf is a Sorcerer. I sympathize with Sorcerer Werewolves, however. After this change, I expect Templar Werewolf will be BiS for damage dealing werewolves.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

2) Roar: This ability and the Ferocious Roar morph now apply a unique debuff called "Terrified" to enemies they hit for 10 seconds. Terrified doesn't do anything outright other than place a tracking effect on enemies, to help Werewolves mark their prey.

Deafening Roar (morph): This morph now grants Major Protection for slotting, rather than Major Prophecy and Savagery. While slotted, it also causes your Heavy Attacks to taunt enemies for 15 seconds.

Feedback: For ALL THAT AREN'T AWARE- in order to tank this is what you will 'give up':

-You are going to LOSE your ability to provide MAJOR BREACH "AS A TANK" despite this being the "tank debuff" and REQUIRED ON A TANK. Werewolf was already suffering horrible as a tank while using Tormentor pre-nerf WITH this breach.

Beyond this, you are giving up MINOR MAIM effectively making the total mitigation added ONLY 5%, YOU HAVE TO HEAVY ATTACK TO TANK ie LEAVE YOURSELF OPEN, AND you give up YOUR MAJOR CRIT BUFF (bye-bye tri-pot??? didn't need that on a tank)

As far as we know, Major Breach and Minor Maim weren't removed from Deafening Roar. Sure, if a damage dealer werewolf wants to apply the Terrified debuff on enemies, they'll have to use Ferocious Roar (which may put enemies on crowd control immunity) but this doesn't mean tank werewolves can't use Deafening Roar to apply Major Breach to enemies while they have crowd control immunity.

Is the major crit buff really necessary for a tank whose purpose is to hold taunt? Heavy Attacking counts as a channeled ability, so you could be a werewolf tank on an Altmer for the Spell Recharge passive, which reduces your damage taken by 5% while channeling. Not to mention Pack Leader has a unique 10% damage mitigation on top of the 10% damage mitigation from Major Protection, given from slotting Deafening Roar.

The purpose of the dichotomy between Ferocious Roar and Deafening Roar is to make one appealing for damage dealers, and the other appealing for tanks.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

3) Piercing Howl: This ability and its morphs no longer deal 10% bonus damage to enemies that are facing them, and instead deal 10% bonus damage to enemies that are Terrified.

Howl of Agony (morph):
This morph now adds an additional 10% bonus damage to off balance enemies, stacking up to 20% when they are also Terrified, rather than dealing 25% to enemies that are facing you or are feared.
This morph now also ranks up with cost reduction, rather than ranking up the bonus damage effect.

Howl of Despair: Extended the duration of the buffs granted by Feeding Frenzy to 20 seconds, up from 10.

Feedback: Once again, for ALL THAT AREN'T AWARE or KEEN ON MATH, here is what's happening here:

You went from a 25% damage increase with the ONLY stipulation being YOUR ENEMY IS FACING you to...
...You HAVE TO USE ROAR on your target for a 10 SECOND DEBUFF to get 10% and then they ALSO HAVE TO BE OFF-BALANCE which can only happen AT-MOST 33% OF THE TIME.

So you essentially run around w/ LESS THAN HALF THE POTENCY OF THIS MOVE ORIGINALLY for more than 2/3 OF THE TIME. (and the OVERALL BUFF can only reach 20% now with ALL OF THE STIPULATIONS.

This is a definite nerf, but it's better than the alternative. Damage dealers shouldn't have to stand where the tank is in order to get optimal DPS. It was also ridiculously easy to mitigate the damage from enemy werewolves by simply turning around. I wish the numbers were adjusted to compensate, but I'm glad to be done with the positional requirements of the skill.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

---SO TO RECAP---

-We have almost all lost damage on our light attacks FOR A SMALL BLEED CHANCE w/ a spec that can GUARANTEE IT ON A SKILL.

-We have "the ability to tank" if we give up our only in-spec source of MAJOR BREACH, which is a known, REQUIRED TANK buff+ OUR CRIT BUFF, for the horrible ability to tank WHILE LEAVING OURSELFVES OPEN via HEAVY ATTACKING to PERFORM A BASIC TANKING ACTION (very punishing in tank-centric fights).

-AND worst of all, we have LOST MORE DAMAGE, with MORE CONDITIONS being required to GET WHAT'S LEFT.

Werewolf is struggling w/ sustain, survivability, and damage IN THAT ORDER. It's a horribly inefficient spec where, with the nerf to defile, BRING ALMOST NOTHING TO THE TABLE. It needs BUFFS to combat SCRIBING and yet it received NOTHING BUT NERFS in a set of "TANKING" changes that remove it's ability to MAJOR FRACTURE (what... JUST WHAT?!?!)

It needs buffs, very badly and we can nearly, all agree. THE LAST THING werewolf needs right now are OUTRIGHT NERFS.

I have played this game for a very long time, I cannot continue to do this to myself. It's just a game, and I understand that; but it's a game that's grown w/ me as a person. It's the only half-decent game that lets me play werewolf BY MYSELF (A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE TO PLAY THE GAME BY THEMSELVES AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO EFFICIENTLY).

I'm pleading to ZOS to listen to OUR FEEDBACK for once and MAKE POSITIVE CHANGES before the PTS IS OVER> Other werewolf players, PLEASE post here in support.

I'll recap my summary here:

• Sorcerer Werewolf got a nerf due to the light attack damage type change. Templar Werewolf may end up being BiS for Werewolf PvE damage dealing after this patch.
• The heavy attack to taunt is a concern. There are workarounds, but I'm just glad werewolf tanking is legitimized by ZOS. Keep in mind that Werewolf's taunt is free of cost — you only need to heavy attack while you have Deafening Roar slotted. I don't fully understand why crit chance is necessary for a tank, but it was stripped from Deafening Roar to dissuade Werewolf damage dealers from picking the morph of the skill which would allow them to taunt. Major Breach and Minor Maim are still on Deafening Roar.
• We did lose damage, there's no denying that. The previous ability condition was unrealistic in most PvE content (save for Sunspire, where the bosses face every player) and it was easy to mitigate in PvP. The new proc conditions are a bit more strict, but they incentivize Werewolf damage dealers to use every ability in their toolkit, which is a good direction to take the playstyle. Hopefully ZOS improves Werewolf's damage in the future.

As a player who likes to play Werewolf alone, I agree that some of these changes aren't in favor of lone wolves. However, I agree with the direction ZOS is taking with the skill line; there's a tanking spec which is thematically the leader of the werewolf pack, and a damage dealer spec which is thematically the rampaging savage beast. Needing other werewolves to proc Terrified on enemies while you use the Deafening Roar morph parallels the idea that werewolves are stronger in numbers.

Tommy_The_Gun

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions.

You are right, we should not judge the book by its cover. But based alone on PTS notes, for the moment it seems like:

Werewolf Transformation (Both Morphs) - Will now deal Bleed Damage, instead of Physical and Bleed Damage can proc status effect.
+ Clear Buff

Roar & Ferocious Roar morph - Will now have a unique debuff (Terrified) for 10 seconds & apparently a tracking effect (Indicator over enemy ?!) Fear, Major Savagery and Prophecy & 33% speed buff are kept intact.
+ So it is a Buff.

Deafening Roar - loses Major Prophecy and Savagery, but gets Major Protection. It does not seem to have "Terrified" debuff, but will have Taunt on Heavy Attacks for 15 seconds. Fear, Major Breach and Minor Maim debuff are kept intact.
+/- Seems to be a Buff, but you get less vs Ferocious Roar and you can not proc Terrified debuff which can have some bad implications.

Piercing Howl - No longer deals 10% bonus damage based on enemy position, but rather if they have the new unique Terrified debuff.
- Seems to be a nerf, since it is now depended on your other skill you have to cast beforehand (will only work with Ferocious Roar as Deafening Roar does not seem to proc "Terrified" debuff).

Howl of Agony - No longer deals 25% to enemies who are facing you, but rather 20% at best and is depended on Terrified & off-balance debuffs (10% base morph and another 10% more for off balance, so 20%).
- Clear Nerf, since it is now depended on Terrified debuff rather than fear CC status effect or positioning.

Howl of Despair - Kept as it is, but Feeding Frenzy duration is doubled (20 seconds, up from 10).
- Clear Buff.

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions.

You are right, we should not judge the book by its cover. But based alone on PTS notes, for the moment it seems like:

Werewolf Transformation (Both Morphs) - Will now deal Bleed Damage, instead of Physical and Bleed Damage can proc status effect.
+ Clear Buff

Roar & Ferocious Roar morph - Will now have a unique debuff (Terrified) for 10 seconds & apparently a tracking effect (Indicator over enemy ?!) Fear, Major Savagery and Prophecy & 33% speed buff are kept intact.
+ So it is a Buff.

Deafening Roar - loses Major Prophecy and Savagery, but gets Major Protection. It does not seem to have "Terrified" debuff, but will have Taunt on Heavy Attacks for 15 seconds. Fear, Major Breach and Minor Maim debuff are kept intact.
+/- Seems to be a Buff, but you get less vs Ferocious Roar and you can not proc Terrified debuff which can have some bad implications.

Piercing Howl - No longer deals 10% bonus damage based on enemy position, but rather if they have the new unique Terrified debuff.
- Seems to be a nerf, since it is now depended you other skill you have to cast beforehand (will only work with Ferocious Roar as Deafening Roar does not seem to proc "Terrified" debuff).

Howl of Agony - No longer deals 25% to enemies who are facing you, but rather 20% at best and is depended on Terrified debuff (10 on top of base skill's 10, so 20%).
- Clear Nerf, since it is now depended on Terrified debuff rather than fear CC status effect or positioning.

Howl of Despair - Kept as it is, but Feeding Frenzy duration is doubled (20 seconds, up from 10).
- Clear Buff.

I see a plethora of unnecessary nerfs here that are clearly demonstrated w/ a large onset of implications as a result. Clearly I mixed up the name for the nearly-unusable roar morph that cannot be used in PvP and in an area were werewolves are horribly underperforming (Pve).

Also, in my notations I very clearly stated how the light attack changes are a clear, indirect nerf. Have you read the thread? We should stick together on these changes unless you believe werewolf is overperforming somehow.

Tommy_The_Gun

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions.

You are right, we should not judge the book by its cover. But based alone on PTS notes, for the moment it seems like:

Werewolf Transformation (Both Morphs) - Will now deal Bleed Damage, instead of Physical and Bleed Damage can proc status effect.
+ Clear Buff

Roar & Ferocious Roar morph - Will now have a unique debuff (Terrified) for 10 seconds & apparently a tracking effect (Indicator over enemy ?!) Fear, Major Savagery and Prophecy & 33% speed buff are kept intact.
+ So it is a Buff.

Deafening Roar - loses Major Prophecy and Savagery, but gets Major Protection. It does not seem to have "Terrified" debuff, but will have Taunt on Heavy Attacks for 15 seconds. Fear, Major Breach and Minor Maim debuff are kept intact.
+/- Seems to be a Buff, but you get less vs Ferocious Roar and you can not proc Terrified debuff which can have some bad implications.

Piercing Howl - No longer deals 10% bonus damage based on enemy position, but rather if they have the new unique Terrified debuff.
- Seems to be a nerf, since it is now depended you other skill you have to cast beforehand (will only work with Ferocious Roar as Deafening Roar does not seem to proc "Terrified" debuff).

Howl of Agony - No longer deals 25% to enemies who are facing you, but rather 20% at best and is depended on Terrified debuff (10 on top of base skill's 10, so 20%).
- Clear Nerf, since it is now depended on Terrified debuff rather than fear CC status effect or positioning.

Howl of Despair - Kept as it is, but Feeding Frenzy duration is doubled (20 seconds, up from 10).
- Clear Buff.

That morph (deafening) would lose major breach? That morph does not contain major breach/minor maim normally. A quick web search will provide that information.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/deafening-roar
- Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 7 seconds.
- Your roar also leaves enemies dazed, applying Major Breach and Minor Maim, reducing their Physical and Spell Resistance by 5948 and damage done by 5% for 10 seconds.
- While slotted you gain Major Savagery and Prophecy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 2629

It seems to have Major Breach and Minor Maim (unless it is outdated wiki) and should have those effects on PTS, but it will lose Major Savagery and Prophecy in favour of Major Protection.

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions.

You are right, we should not judge the book by its cover. But based alone on PTS notes, for the moment it seems like:

Werewolf Transformation (Both Morphs) - Will now deal Bleed Damage, instead of Physical and Bleed Damage can proc status effect.
+ Clear Buff

Roar & Ferocious Roar morph - Will now have a unique debuff (Terrified) for 10 seconds & apparently a tracking effect (Indicator over enemy ?!) Fear, Major Savagery and Prophecy & 33% speed buff are kept intact.
+ So it is a Buff.

Deafening Roar - loses Major Prophecy and Savagery, but gets Major Protection. It does not seem to have "Terrified" debuff, but will have Taunt on Heavy Attacks for 15 seconds. Fear, Major Breach and Minor Maim debuff are kept intact.
+/- Seems to be a Buff, but you get less vs Ferocious Roar and you can not proc Terrified debuff which can have some bad implications.

Piercing Howl - No longer deals 10% bonus damage based on enemy position, but rather if they have the new unique Terrified debuff.
- Seems to be a nerf, since it is now depended you other skill you have to cast beforehand (will only work with Ferocious Roar as Deafening Roar does not seem to proc "Terrified" debuff).

Howl of Agony - No longer deals 25% to enemies who are facing you, but rather 20% at best and is depended on Terrified debuff (10 on top of base skill's 10, so 20%).
- Clear Nerf, since it is now depended on Terrified debuff rather than fear CC status effect or positioning.

Howl of Despair - Kept as it is, but Feeding Frenzy duration is doubled (20 seconds, up from 10).
- Clear Buff.

That morph (deafening) would lose major breach? That morph does not contain major breach/minor maim normally. A quick web search will provide that information.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/deafening-roar
- Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 7 seconds.
- Your roar also leaves enemies dazed, applying Major Breach and Minor Maim, reducing their Physical and Spell Resistance by 5948 and damage done by 5% for 10 seconds.
- While slotted you gain Major Savagery and Prophecy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 2629

It seems to have Major Breach and Minor Maim (unless it is outdated wiki) and should have those effects on PTS, but it will lose Major Savagery and Prophecy in favour of Major Protection.

Refresh, sorry I'm a little pre-occupied at the moment and cannot give this my full attention. I edited my post. Clearly I'm confusing my morphs though that is a very negative change for PvP. Let's say it's a full swap of the argument I mentioned. Now we no longer have the crit buff to consistently provide that 'crit' heal. Survivability tanks far worse b/c of that than major protection would benefit.

*And that alone should be the trade-off of the morph. Losing the new 'terrified' buff is an absolute disaster for PvP wolf (which, as always, is struggling massively to complete as-is... let alone in this patch).

Wuuffyy

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Werewolf Transformation:
This Ultimate and its morphs' Light and Heavy Attacks now deal Bleed Damage, rather than Physical.
These attacks now have a chance to apply their status effect (now Hemorrhaging), with Light Attacks at 3%, partially charged Heavy Attacks at 5%, and fully charged Heavy Attacks at 10%.

Feedback: You just gave this the executioner treatment. While it wasn't that grand for executioner; NEARLY EVERY WEREWOLF is a SORC for REQUIRED EFFIENCY. This means that, for ONLY A LITTLE status effect chance, you just nerfed our basic attacks by 5% (sorc is 5% damage towards PHYSICAL). We already get a GUARANTEED BLEED off of our 8-9k stam pounce (2 casts) and this little status chance w/ a damage nerf DOES NOT HELP.

Not every Werewolf is a Sorcerer. I sympathize with Sorcerer Werewolves, however. After this change, I expect Templar Werewolf will be BiS for damage dealing werewolves.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

2) Roar: This ability and the Ferocious Roar morph now apply a unique debuff called "Terrified" to enemies they hit for 10 seconds. Terrified doesn't do anything outright other than place a tracking effect on enemies, to help Werewolves mark their prey.

Deafening Roar (morph): This morph now grants Major Protection for slotting, rather than Major Prophecy and Savagery. While slotted, it also causes your Heavy Attacks to taunt enemies for 15 seconds.

Feedback: For ALL THAT AREN'T AWARE- in order to tank this is what you will 'give up':

-You are going to LOSE your ability to provide MAJOR BREACH "AS A TANK" despite this being the "tank debuff" and REQUIRED ON A TANK. Werewolf was already suffering horrible as a tank while using Tormentor pre-nerf WITH this breach.

Beyond this, you are giving up MINOR MAIM effectively making the total mitigation added ONLY 5%, YOU HAVE TO HEAVY ATTACK TO TANK ie LEAVE YOURSELF OPEN, AND you give up YOUR MAJOR CRIT BUFF (bye-bye tri-pot??? didn't need that on a tank)

As far as we know, Major Breach and Minor Maim weren't removed from Deafening Roar. Sure, if a damage dealer werewolf wants to apply the Terrified debuff on enemies, they'll have to use Ferocious Roar (which may put enemies on crowd control immunity) but this doesn't mean tank werewolves can't use Deafening Roar to apply Major Breach to enemies while they have crowd control immunity.

Is the major crit buff really necessary for a tank whose purpose is to hold taunt? Heavy Attacking counts as a channeled ability, so you could be a werewolf tank on an Altmer for the Spell Recharge passive, which reduces your damage taken by 5% while channeling. Not to mention Pack Leader has a unique 10% damage mitigation on top of the 10% damage mitigation from Major Protection, given from slotting Deafening Roar.

The purpose of the dichotomy between Ferocious Roar and Deafening Roar is to make one appealing for damage dealers, and the other appealing for tanks.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

3) Piercing Howl: This ability and its morphs no longer deal 10% bonus damage to enemies that are facing them, and instead deal 10% bonus damage to enemies that are Terrified.

Howl of Agony (morph):
This morph now adds an additional 10% bonus damage to off balance enemies, stacking up to 20% when they are also Terrified, rather than dealing 25% to enemies that are facing you or are feared.
This morph now also ranks up with cost reduction, rather than ranking up the bonus damage effect.

Howl of Despair: Extended the duration of the buffs granted by Feeding Frenzy to 20 seconds, up from 10.

Feedback: Once again, for ALL THAT AREN'T AWARE or KEEN ON MATH, here is what's happening here:

You went from a 25% damage increase with the ONLY stipulation being YOUR ENEMY IS FACING you to...
...You HAVE TO USE ROAR on your target for a 10 SECOND DEBUFF to get 10% and then they ALSO HAVE TO BE OFF-BALANCE which can only happen AT-MOST 33% OF THE TIME.

So you essentially run around w/ LESS THAN HALF THE POTENCY OF THIS MOVE ORIGINALLY for more than 2/3 OF THE TIME. (and the OVERALL BUFF can only reach 20% now with ALL OF THE STIPULATIONS.

This is a definite nerf, but it's better than the alternative. Damage dealers shouldn't have to stand where the tank is in order to get optimal DPS. It was also ridiculously easy to mitigate the damage from enemy werewolves by simply turning around. I wish the numbers were adjusted to compensate, but I'm glad to be done with the positional requirements of the skill.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

---SO TO RECAP---

-We have almost all lost damage on our light attacks FOR A SMALL BLEED CHANCE w/ a spec that can GUARANTEE IT ON A SKILL.

-We have "the ability to tank" if we give up our only in-spec source of MAJOR BREACH, which is a known, REQUIRED TANK buff+ OUR CRIT BUFF, for the horrible ability to tank WHILE LEAVING OURSELFVES OPEN via HEAVY ATTACKING to PERFORM A BASIC TANKING ACTION (very punishing in tank-centric fights).

-AND worst of all, we have LOST MORE DAMAGE, with MORE CONDITIONS being required to GET WHAT'S LEFT.

Werewolf is struggling w/ sustain, survivability, and damage IN THAT ORDER. It's a horribly inefficient spec where, with the nerf to defile, BRING ALMOST NOTHING TO THE TABLE. It needs BUFFS to combat SCRIBING and yet it received NOTHING BUT NERFS in a set of "TANKING" changes that remove it's ability to MAJOR FRACTURE (what... JUST WHAT?!?!)

It needs buffs, very badly and we can nearly, all agree. THE LAST THING werewolf needs right now are OUTRIGHT NERFS.

I have played this game for a very long time, I cannot continue to do this to myself. It's just a game, and I understand that; but it's a game that's grown w/ me as a person. It's the only half-decent game that lets me play werewolf BY MYSELF (A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE TO PLAY THE GAME BY THEMSELVES AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO SO EFFICIENTLY).

I'm pleading to ZOS to listen to OUR FEEDBACK for once and MAKE POSITIVE CHANGES before the PTS IS OVER> Other werewolf players, PLEASE post here in support.

I'll recap my summary here:

• Sorcerer Werewolf got a nerf due to the light attack damage type change. Templar Werewolf may end up being BiS for Werewolf PvE damage dealing after this patch.
• The heavy attack to taunt is a concern. There are workarounds, but I'm just glad werewolf tanking is legitimized by ZOS. Keep in mind that Werewolf's taunt is free of cost — you only need to heavy attack while you have Deafening Roar slotted. I don't fully understand why crit chance is necessary for a tank, but it was stripped from Deafening Roar to dissuade Werewolf damage dealers from picking the morph of the skill which would allow them to taunt. Major Breach and Minor Maim are still on Deafening Roar.
• We did lose damage, there's no denying that. The previous ability condition was unrealistic in most PvE content (save for Sunspire, where the bosses face every player) and it was easy to mitigate in PvP. The new proc conditions are a bit more strict, but they incentivize Werewolf damage dealers to use every ability in their toolkit, which is a good direction to take the playstyle. Hopefully ZOS improves Werewolf's damage in the future.

As a player who likes to play Werewolf alone, I agree that some of these changes aren't in favor of lone wolves. However, I agree with the direction ZOS is taking with the skill line; there's a tanking spec which is thematically the leader of the werewolf pack, and a damage dealer spec which is thematically the rampaging savage beast. Needing other werewolves to proc Terrified on enemies while you use the Deafening Roar morph parallels the idea that werewolves are stronger in numbers.

Right. I love the direction though it CANNOT come w/ heavy-handed, lightly-considered nerfs; this especially w/ the advent of scribing (mirror spellcrafting). We are undoubtably becoming significantly weaker now as a result of the new changes allowing everyone but us, at the moment, to bring as much utility/damage/healing to their build as they desire.
^
This is reminiscent of the balancing being vigor gaining minor resolve. The patch following I clearly noticed a stark, irredeemable decrease in damage I could not recover (or return w/ further mitigation myself), w/o merit.

This drastic decrease in damage for howl in PvP, especially when tethered to maximum update of balance (1/3 uptime; overall uptime is 7 seconds- downtime 14 seconds); is absolutely overkill.

I get the concept of the 'terrified' debuff except the fact that the morph that doesn't receive this is the de-facto damage morph in PvP and ALSO LOSES THE MAJOR CRIT BUFF which should be the trade-off for the PROTECTION, NOT THE 'TERRIFIED' buff. Also, this means that either morph would require someone else to augment which is, once again, overkill in terms of FORCED GROUPING.

Either morph should provide the buff and the ability to have easier access to the buff (more consistent procs with teammates) should be considered to be the reward for running two+ wolves w/ a different morph each. Especially w/ the staggering loss of crit buff (again, less crit heals means bye-bye mag).

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think we need to see it before we jump to conclusions.

You are right, we should not judge the book by its cover. But based alone on PTS notes, for the moment it seems like:

Werewolf Transformation (Both Morphs) - Will now deal Bleed Damage, instead of Physical and Bleed Damage can proc status effect.
+ Clear Buff

Roar & Ferocious Roar morph - Will now have a unique debuff (Terrified) for 10 seconds & apparently a tracking effect (Indicator over enemy ?!) Fear, Major Savagery and Prophecy & 33% speed buff are kept intact.
+ So it is a Buff.

Deafening Roar - loses Major Prophecy and Savagery, but gets Major Protection. It does not seem to have "Terrified" debuff, but will have Taunt on Heavy Attacks for 15 seconds. Fear, Major Breach and Minor Maim debuff are kept intact.
+/- Seems to be a Buff, but you get less vs Ferocious Roar and you can not proc Terrified debuff which can have some bad implications.

Piercing Howl - No longer deals 10% bonus damage based on enemy position, but rather if they have the new unique Terrified debuff.
- Seems to be a nerf, since it is now depended you other skill you have to cast beforehand (will only work with Ferocious Roar as Deafening Roar does not seem to proc "Terrified" debuff).

Howl of Agony - No longer deals 25% to enemies who are facing you, but rather 20% at best and is depended on Terrified debuff (10 on top of base skill's 10, so 20%).
- Clear Nerf, since it is now depended on Terrified debuff rather than fear CC status effect or positioning.

Howl of Despair - Kept as it is, but Feeding Frenzy duration is doubled (20 seconds, up from 10).
- Clear Buff.

That morph (deafening) would lose major breach? That morph does not contain major breach/minor maim normally. A quick web search will provide that information.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/deafening-roar
- Roar with bloodlust to terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 7 seconds.
- Your roar also leaves enemies dazed, applying Major Breach and Minor Maim, reducing their Physical and Spell Resistance by 5948 and damage done by 5% for 10 seconds.
- While slotted you gain Major Savagery and Prophecy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 2629

It seems to have Major Breach and Minor Maim (unless it is outdated wiki) and should have those effects on PTS, but it will lose Major Savagery and Prophecy in favour of Major Protection.

Finally managed to get some time to access the PTS and it looks like its down. Did you have the chance to access the PTS before this happened? Any changes on what we know as of now?

shallot

Huh, I feel stupid, I misunderstood that sorcerer passive to mean the physical damage category like physical, bleed, poison, or disease. I guess I at some point mixed it up with the martial description from the champion ability that affects the related status effects. I really need to find a good guide that clearly explains all the ambiguous and reused of wording in this game.

It'd be nice if there was an option to keep the physical damage with an improved chance to proc the sundered status effect on light or heavy attacks added instead of hemorrhaging for sorcerers since I doubt they would expand the sorcerer passive as that would make it buff more status effects and the class in general instead of only sorc werewolves.

On an unrelated topic, does it seem to anyone that the heavy attack speed buff doesn't always seem to apply reliably and the animation for the feral pounce seems kinda slow enough that the transformation extension seems a wash sometimes or is it just my pc might be too old and lagging. In either case, would it be too much to add something to the bloodrage passive that further increases the transformation extension when damaging terrified targets or was it stated to be a design choice somewhere to keep maintaining the transformation dependent on a constant supply of corpses?

Tannus15

I really don't understand the sorc complaint.

I mean, this set exists...

Blooddrinker is a dungeon set that drops in the Bloodroot Forge. It cannot be crafted. Pieces are Bloodforge Style in Medium Armor.

Bonuses
2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: Increases your Bleed damaging attacks by 20%.

This is quite a bit stronger than the sorc 5% physical damage...

sneakymitchell

Changes seem alright. Least more source for bleed stacks. But the terrifying thing sounds odd but I try it out when I get the chance to. Defeaning roar has always been go to but I guess it balance out for having more defense or more offense. Still pack leader still go to for most werewolves.

I suggested a minor beserk if you have ulti slotted for beserker morph. Cause it makes sense then you balance out the two morphs better.

Wuuffyy

shallot wrote: »

Huh, I feel stupid, I misunderstood that sorcerer passive to mean the physical damage category like physical, bleed, poison, or disease. I guess I at some point mixed it up with the martial description from the champion ability that affects the related status effects. I really need to find a good guide that clearly explains all the ambiguous and reused of wording in this game.

It'd be nice if there was an option to keep the physical damage with an improved chance to proc the sundered status effect on light or heavy attacks added instead of hemorrhaging for sorcerers since I doubt they would expand the sorcerer passive as that would make it buff more status effects and the class in general instead of only sorc werewolves.

On an unrelated topic, does it seem to anyone that the heavy attack speed buff doesn't always seem to apply reliably and the animation for the feral pounce seems kinda slow enough that the transformation extension seems a wash sometimes or is it just my pc might be too old and lagging. In either case, would it be too much to add something to the bloodrage passive that further increases the transformation extension when damaging terrified targets or was it stated to be a design choice somewhere to keep maintaining the transformation dependent on a constant supply of corpses?

It's somewhat antiquated, I agree.

Theist_VII

At first glance, the changes looked amazing. But the more I broke it down, the more apparent it was that the power budget for Werewolf was hardly touched.

As long as that budget isn’t adjusted, the curse just isn’t going to be worth using.

Wuuffyy

shallot wrote: »

Huh, I feel stupid, I misunderstood that sorcerer passive to mean the physical damage category like physical, bleed, poison, or disease. I guess I at some point mixed it up with the martial description from the champion ability that affects the related status effects. I really need to find a good guide that clearly explains all the ambiguous and reused of wording in this game.

It'd be nice if there was an option to keep the physical damage with an improved chance to proc the sundered status effect on light or heavy attacks added instead of hemorrhaging for sorcerers since I doubt they would expand the sorcerer passive as that would make it buff more status effects and the class in general instead of only sorc werewolves.

On an unrelated topic, does it seem to anyone that the heavy attack speed buff doesn't always seem to apply reliably and the animation for the feral pounce seems kinda slow enough that the transformation extension seems a wash sometimes or is it just my pc might be too old and lagging. In either case, would it be too much to add something to the bloodrage passive that further increases the transformation extension when damaging terrified targets or was it stated to be a design choice somewhere to keep maintaining the transformation dependent on a constant supply of corpses?

It's somewhat antiquated, I agree.

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Changes seem alright. Least more source for bleed stacks. But the terrifying thing sounds odd but I try it out when I get the chance to. Deafening roar has always been go to but I guess it balance out for having more defense or more offense. Still pack leader still go to for most werewolves.

I suggested a minor beserk if you have ulti slotted for beserker morph. Cause it makes sense then you balance out the two morphs better.

Here are the trade-offs Mitchell,

Deafening roar:

-Major Protection
-Major Breach
-Minor Maim

X- NO more CRIT BUFF
X- NO TERRIFIED BUFF (Our max howl buff only goes to 20%. Having this PvP morph now drops your max by 10% to, well... 10%)

Ferocious Roar:

-CRIT BUFF
-Weird heavy attack speed buff (I hope you like spamming heavies)
-Terrified buff (we used to have a 25% damage buff and now 10 of 20 of OUR NEW PERCENT comes from OUR WEAKER ROAR MORPH; you'd think the heavy attack morph would be the tank morph b/c... HEAVY ATTACKS)

X- NO MAJOR BREACH (Good luck killing players in PvP w/o this)
X- No minor maim (another 5% increase to damage taken on YOU for what)

sneakymitchell

Still is good. Even if no breach on other morph. Not like some classes don’t have easy access to breach unless they equip a certain skill or set. Like I don’t mind slotting night mother to get major breach.

Wuuffyy

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Still is good. Even if no breach on other morph. Not like some classes don’t have easy access to breach unless they equip a certain skill or set. Like I don’t mind slotting night mother to get major breach.

Everyone will have access to buffs such as these through spellcrafting+caltrops+psjic spammable...

Wuuffyy

Plus, @sneakymitchell, werewolf is UNDERPERFORMING right now and doesn't need a DAMAGE LOSS AT ALL> Nerfs should occur when things are OVERPERFORMING.

Once again, beyond this-> THIS IS THE SCRIBING PATCH. WE WILL BE AT OUR ABSOLUTE WEAKEST w/ no current ability to "bounce back" from the new changes, so-to-speak.

Tommy_The_Gun

While some changes are nice (I very much like the idea of "mark target" for WW) as some one pointed out - it seems like ZOS devs are kept back by power budget formula they made. They are afraid of adding more stuff to WW skills as all of the Werewolf skills are very overloaded with effects to the point in which ZOS increased the cost of WW skills a lot of patches ago. And yet despite each ww skills being very strong "on paper", Werewolf is underperforming in every possible aspect. Worst PvE dps and "free AP" in PvP (Cyro, IC, BGs, duels, it does not matter). I won't mention PvE tanking role (which WW is bad at and will be bad at even if they add native ww taunt). And PvE healer is not available at all.

My point is: instead of altering existing stuff and adding/removing things back & forth, they should try different approach. Simplest and best way to ensure WW is in better spot would be enabling weapon passives in Werewolf form. WW not having access to weapon passives is an outdated & artificial concept that is keeping WWs back for years. Some one on forums even motioned that it might be a bug that ZOS is unable to fix (which would not be surprising). I kinda think that it may be because of some weapon types being ranged and WW is only melee.

Imagine how simple and intuitive it would be. You would be able to tweak your WW build and it would definitely add more diversity.

Enable weapon passives in WW form 1st and then see what happens & how it affects Werewolf. You can not have this kind of statistic data on pts ZOS, this needs to happen on live server.

Anyway, speaking of PTS WW changes, I do believe that "terrified" debut should be present on both morphs of Roar as not having it locks you out & you can not use full potential of your other skill - Piercing Howl as it is dependent on having access to "terrified" debut.
This is just badly designed & needs a rework.

I also do believe that it is a missed opportunity to add "detection" to WW toolkit. Base Roar skill & morphs can have this "tracking" debuff, but Ferocious Roar can get additional detection that would basically work like AOE Piercing Mark - if some one invisible is near you when you used Roar, you will be able to see them for X seconds (but only you). The other morph should have normal version of Terrified, just so that you won't be locked out when using Piercing Howl.

shallot

One other thing I've been thinking about, would it be possible to add a different, offensive effect to the ultimate while transformed (similar to how the warden bear ultimate changes to ordering it to use a special attack when it is already summoned) and allow werewolves to generate ultimate in form so ultimate (and sets that trigger off using ultimates or focus on building ultimate like nearly all the ones already in game that reference werewolves in their name) are still relevant after you've transformed. If its a concern about not being able to leave form, maybe make it so pressing the ultimate keybind when below the minimum for the hypothetical skill reverts you to human form, maybe even refunding a small amount of ultimate back based on your current transformation time remaining to lessen frustration if people accidentally press it and drop form early.

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

While some changes are nice (I very much like the idea of "mark target" for WW) as some one pointed out - it seems like ZOS devs are kept back by power budget formula they made. They are afraid of adding more stuff to WW skills as all of the Werewolf skills are very overloaded with effects to the point in which ZOS increased the cost of WW skills a lot of patches ago. And yet despite each ww skills being very strong "on paper", Werewolf is underperforming in every possible aspect. Worst PvE dps and "free AP" in PvP (Cyro, IC, BGs, duels, it does not matter). I won't mention PvE tanking role (which WW is bad at and will be bad at even if they add native ww taunt). And PvE healer is not available at all.

My point is: instead of altering existing stuff and adding/removing things back & forth, they should try different approach. Simplest and best way to ensure WW is in better spot would be enabling weapon passives in Werewolf form. WW not having access to weapon passives is an outdated & artificial concept that is keeping WWs back for years. Some one on forums even motioned that it might be a bug that ZOS is unable to fix (which would not be surprising). I kinda think that it may be because of some weapon types being ranged and WW is only melee.

Imagine how simple and intuitive it would be. You would be able to tweak your WW build and it would definitely add more diversity.

Enable weapon passives in WW form 1st and then see what happens & how it affects Werewolf. You can not have this kind of statistic data on pts ZOS, this needs to happen on live server.

Anyway, speaking of PTS WW changes, I do believe that "terrified" debut should be present on both morphs of Roar as not having it locks you out & you can not use full potential of your other skill - Piercing Howl as it is dependent on having access to "terrified" debut.
This is just badly designed & needs a rework.

I also do believe that it is a missed opportunity to add "detection" to WW toolkit. Base Roar skill & morphs can have this "tracking" debuff, but Ferocious Roar can get additional detection that would basically work like AOE Piercing Mark - if some one invisible is near you when you used Roar, you will be able to see them for X seconds (but only you). The other morph should have normal version of Terrified, just so that you won't be locked out when using Piercing Howl.

So I really love your thoughts on this matter! Weapon passives would be a great addition IN ADDITION to 'unnerfing' at least part of the damage loss with the new update.

I understand your mentality when it comes to the "balancing" of skills/ etc based on their fantasy power budget. I have seen both nerfs and buffs based on this system.

Two issues arise from the use of "power budget" as an excuse. They have been known to make exceptions when a skill/spec is considered 'harder to use'/ requires additional work to reach maximum efficiency. Off the top of my head are outliers such as: warden's wings, blade cloak's damage, and necro's damage tether in terms of damage as well as 'number of ticks'.

Given that werewolf as a whole underperforms so very wholeheartedly, it would make sense that we could make these exceptions on this basis alone; based on necessity with clear documentation that 'this is different than the standard subset b/c x, y, z (horribly underperforming).

Beyond that, werewolf's efficiency on skills comes from the fact we lose access to an ult, hot, true burst, purge, snare removal, weapon passives AND MORE IMPORTANTLY our skills also COST 25% more for 25% more efficiency. Beyond this, it was made one bar, and JUST LIKE OAKENSOUL, requires the BUFFS BE BUILT IN which should be considered w/in efficiency (compared to oakensoul) for a "1 bar build".

Wuuffyy

Tannus15 wrote: »

I really don't understand the sorc complaint.

I mean, this set exists...

Blooddrinker is a dungeon set that drops in the Bloodroot Forge. It cannot be crafted. Pieces are Bloodforge Style in Medium Armor.

Bonuses
2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: Increases your Bleed damaging attacks by 20%.

This is quite a bit stronger than the sorc 5% physical damage...

75% of your damage including your main spammable (for some reason it's a physical howl instead of me ripping (bleeding) them apart w/ claws). This would not work... Again, WEREWOLF IS UNDERPERFORMING RIGHT NOW. If it wasn't, this would be a different conversation.

You cannot afford to take direct nerfs when you are underperforming in ALL AREAS.

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I really don't understand the sorc complaint.

I mean, this set exists...

Blooddrinker is a dungeon set that drops in the Bloodroot Forge. It cannot be crafted. Pieces are Bloodforge Style in Medium Armor.

Bonuses
2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: Increases your Bleed damaging attacks by 20%.

This is quite a bit stronger than the sorc 5% physical damage...

75% of your damage including your main spammable (for some reason it's a physical howl instead of me ripping (bleeding) them apart w/ claws). This would not work... Again, WEREWOLF IS UNDERPERFORMING RIGHT NOW. If it wasn't, this would be a different conversation.

You cannot afford to take direct nerfs when you are underperforming in ALL AREAS.

If Werewolf had its own Grimoire, I'd swap out Piercing Howl in a heartbeat. It's clear that the main damage type of Werewolf is shifting to be more Bleed-focused than Physical-focused, so I'd happily replace the projectile with something like a biting attack that can deal Bleed damage.

That aside, I wish some of the other Classes specifically augmented specific damage types the way Sorcerer augments Physical and Shock. Maybe Warden would be a candidate for augmenting Bleed and Frost? It's a shame that a Warden Werewolf is inferior to a Templar Werewolf of all things solely due to the passives accessible in Werewolf form.


EDIT: By request, I'm quoting my CMX parse feedback for future reference in this thread. PvE DPS was hit hard, and it was already struggling.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

On Live, I was able to hit 107k DPS with Werewolf:


After the changes to Werewolf on the PTS, I'm only just barely able to hit 100k with the same setup:


Howl of Agony did 29k DPS (27.4% overall) on Live, but it now only does 25k DPS (25.8% overall) on Week 1 of the U42 PTS.


The rotation on Live prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Howl of Agony (x5) --> repeat.

The rotation on the PTS prebuffs with Hircine's Rage, then light attack weaving between every ability, goes Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Claws of Anguish --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x3) --> Brutal Pounce --> Brutal Carnage --> Hircine's Rage --> Ferocious Roar --> Howl of Agony (x4) --> repeat.


The changes to Piercing Howl and Roar require Werewolf damage dealers to burn GCDs debuffing with Ferocious Roar, which lowers DPS compared to Live, not to mention that the total bonus damage of Howl of Agony was lowered from 25% to 20% with perfect conditions. The drop in damage is significant.

As someone who plays Werewolf in PvE as well as in PvP, can something be done to give Werewolf back some of the damage it lacks? This update is going to punish PvE Werewolf damage dealers, and it'll undoubtedly make Werewolf's burst in PvP much less effective.

Wuuffyy

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

I really don't understand the sorc complaint.

I mean, this set exists...

Blooddrinker is a dungeon set that drops in the Bloodroot Forge. It cannot be crafted. Pieces are Bloodforge Style in Medium Armor.

Bonuses
2 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
3 items: Adds 3-129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 15-657 Critical Chance
5 items: Increases your Bleed damaging attacks by 20%.

This is quite a bit stronger than the sorc 5% physical damage...

75% of your damage including your main spammable (for some reason it's a physical howl instead of me ripping (bleeding) them apart w/ claws). This would not work... Again, WEREWOLF IS UNDERPERFORMING RIGHT NOW. If it wasn't, this would be a different conversation.

You cannot afford to take direct nerfs when you are underperforming in ALL AREAS.

If Werewolf had its own Grimoire, I'd swap out Piercing Howl in a heartbeat. It's clear that the main damage type of Werewolf is shifting to be more Bleed-focused than Physical-focused, so I'd happily replace the projectile with something like a biting attack that can deal Bleed damage.

That aside, I wish some of the other Classes specifically augmented specific damage types the way Sorcerer augments Physical and Shock. Maybe Warden would be a candidate for augmenting Bleed and Frost? It's a shame that a Warden Werewolf is inferior to a Templar Werewolf of all things solely due to the passives accessible in Werewolf form.

Exactly. The problem is that we don't (have grimoires). And everyone else will next patch.

I really like the concept of the bleed (as well) but it's coming w/ a very small chance at a very consistent, sizeable indirect LA/HA nerf (we can't source buffs outside of our 'class').

I feel like we should be balancing a-la-carte (I think this is what it's called). We don't nerf it to oblivion now, and then, if we MAYBE get grimoires in the future- adjustments can be made at that point for sure.

Wuuffyy

Directly below my main post, I have edited the comment to display all of the werewolf nerfs and erroneous changes to clearly demonstrate their now-removed potency for non-PTS-goers especially.

Wuuffyy

I wouldn't normally play this card, but werewolf quite literally cannot afford to be nerfed now, in the scribing patch... let alone to tank w/ heavy attacks after using 3-4k stam and a GCD to even be able to do so. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno please review this thread, if possible and time permits before its too late to make a change.

Created the below spoiler so the inquiry/request doesn't look as messy:

There aren't enough werewolf players to go around. It's a vastly underperforming spec in both PvE+PvP that's nearly-universally agreed upon.

Nerfs of this nature+standarization changes are the reason why werewolf is one of the least-played classes in the entire game.

I love that we've added the ability to tank; but to be honest--- the tanking was bad w/ pre-nerf tormentor and it'll be bad now w/the required skill+heavy attack feature to get the taunt+fracture.

We lack immobilizes/ ranged taunts/ resources back on skill use/ shields/ reliable crushing procs/ etc, etc.

The advent of built-in tanking (via a heavy attack which will be very detrimental in any serious content) is not worth further, unnecessary nerfs to an already underperforming spec).

---

I understand we are trying to add synergies for werewolves, except the only issue is; other classes can add more of themselves, while not weakening their own build beyond comprehension by removing near-required buffs/debuffs (especially in PvP such as major fracture///major savagery for crit heals).

Beyond this, if a a skill is ever changed, other 'classes' have the ability to sub that out for any other skill (especially w/ the scribing patch).

Here are some suggestions so we don't 'nuke' (Fallout reference?) werewolf in exchange for QoL changes:

Light and heavy attacks: For now- how about w/ keep the light and heavy attacks as physical damage and retain the 'bleed chance'? It's an amazing thematical change though I ultimately am still ripping them apart and causing physical damage to bleed them. (this until we add a passive 'bleed damage' buff to a class)

Roar skill: Especially since the werewolf 'mark' doesn't actually add a visual indicator to anything/ take nightblades out stealth; can we add 'terrified' to both morphs of the skill?

To make adding additional werewolves still viable, how about we make the Ferocious roar morph actually 'mark' nightblades for a very short time like a detect pot/mark for the user-only OR share that heavy attack speed buff w/ other werewolves nearby?

I think the major protection is a great trade-off for the crit buff and should remain. You can source the crit from somewhere else (pots/Oakensoul) as an efficiency exchange.

Howl skill: Can we try to allow this to maintain some of its original efficiency so it doesn't equal out as a huge damage decrease?

For example, for the 'howl of agony' morph, how about we take the values of the terrified damage buff+off balance damage buff from 10%/10% to either 12%/12% (right under old efficiency at maximum value), OR 15%/15% (a small buff as a reward for additional micromanagement/potential downtime).

Beyond this, what if we gave the off-balance buff the stuhn's set treatment and it gave you that buff for 'x' amount of time after hitting an off-balance enemy?

I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this post from a long-standing ESO player (plea to sympathy lol), and sincerely thank you for your time. Again, there aren't many werewolf players that exists let alone that are vocal enough to plead their case w/ these changes.

Theist_VII

Once again, not a Werewolf, still okay with Werewolf getting some love.

Lowering their damage by 5% universally is not love. They are nowhere near close to parsing the same numbers as other classes.