Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I roll solo so basically I always expect someone to come in with an attack or even a few someones. This is why my alert level changes based on proximity to los. When I hear a sound or see a visual queue I take a defensive action. That's basic gameplay but I guess my point is that I've just trained myself to have a defensive response and expect random damage to happen so it's not much of a surprise.

I get to play with a friendly player maybe once a month tops if even. I know all about avoiding out numbered situations too. That a sorc may open on me with a curse while I'm fighting someone else is 3rd partying and flipping numbers, just like ganking.

Now, what may shock everyone is I am not a one trick. I mess around with hybrid DK and the gloriously easy modern Mag Sorc as well. The telegraph argument holds no water. You can straight up double barrel-shot gun people with crystal weapon, force pulse and power overload for like a Spec-Bow and half per GCD if you want to. That's stupid and OP. Throw curse and/or bound armaments in and it's straight up oppressive, from range, with 0 risk unless you just stand there and do that until it's too late.

Even the much maligned (and I hate em too) stick or bow blade can't throw that much burst out of nowhere unless their setup is a clown costume made of procs, procs with cooldowns up to 10 seconds.

I say this all the time. It's easy to blow away unsuspecting or ill prepared players. Depending on my setup i can straight get mowed down by some sorcs or I can easily mitigate their damage and fight back, just depends on what I'm running or testing out.

So yes if someone is running a lighter build and isn't that good at offense/defense rotation I imagine a ranged sorc might as well be a death star. Personally when built properly I find their combo mostly telegraphed and easy to deal with but that's also because I sacrifice some offense as a trade off to be able to take my time and have more breathing room

DrNukenstein

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I say this all the time. It's easy to blow away unsuspecting or ill prepared players. Depending on my setup i can straight get mowed down by some sorcs or I can easily mitigate their damage and fight back, just depends on what I'm running or testing out.

So yes if someone is running a lighter build and isn't that good at offense/defense rotation I imagine a ranged sorc might as well be a death star. Personally when built properly I find their combo mostly telegraphed and easy to deal with but that's also because I sacrifice some offense as a trade off to be able to take my time and have more breathing room

Yeah, it's easy to blow up any player really when you can stand 40 meters away from them and bean them with 3-skill GCD's every second while a DK/Warden/Brawlerblade/Arcanist covers for you. Certainly easier than most of the alternatives.

Bushido2513

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I say this all the time. It's easy to blow away unsuspecting or ill prepared players. Depending on my setup i can straight get mowed down by some sorcs or I can easily mitigate their damage and fight back, just depends on what I'm running or testing out.

So yes if someone is running a lighter build and isn't that good at offense/defense rotation I imagine a ranged sorc might as well be a death star. Personally when built properly I find their combo mostly telegraphed and easy to deal with but that's also because I sacrifice some offense as a trade off to be able to take my time and have more breathing room

Yeah, it's easy to blow up any player really when you can stand 40 meters away from them and bean them with 3-skill GCD's every second while a DK/Warden/Brawlerblade/Arcanist covers for you. Certainly easier than most of the alternatives.

I mean yes that is easy if that player hasn't prepared for a scenario like that and isn't near los, faction members, or built a bit tanky.

For me as soon as one player attacks me I mentally prepare and say ok what if this damage doubled, could I deal with that right now and if the answer is no then I need to defensively move to a better position or stay and understand the risks.

I'll say this, most of the time when I look back at gameplay footage where I die, including to ranged attacks, there was usually something I could change to have put things a bit more in my favor.

I say that to say that most of the time I'm not out here fighting ranged opponents and saying wow there's just no way I could have changed that outcome to even a stalemate.

That being said I will say ranged opponents can definitely require you to make a choice you're either retreating or heading directly to them, anything in-between can produce diminishing return quite quickly

TechMaybeHic

I tried to purge and roll a sorcs combos the other day. You know what happened? They rolled right into the next one. So I'd ultimately have to counter again. And again. And again. Until you realize your stam and mag pool combined is just barely enough to match their mag pool alone and the cost of ER and escalating roll dodge is less efficient.

Maybe; if you could apply pressure to the glass cannon? Oh wait. Their shield and heal tooltip without crit is about the amount an average merciless resolve proc actually hits for. So unless I have bow proc as a spammable. I'll lose the GCD competition as well even if they didn't just streak away some room

Meanwhile, the mass of casual sorcs that push into keeps still het waxed.

StaticWave

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I tried to purge and roll a sorcs combos the other day. You know what happened? They rolled right into the next one. So I'd ultimately have to counter again. And again. And again. Until you realize your stam and mag pool combined is just barely enough to match their mag pool alone and the cost of ER and escalating roll dodge is less efficient.

Maybe; if you could apply pressure to the glass cannon? Oh wait. Their shield and heal tooltip without crit is about the amount an average merciless resolve proc actually hits for. So unless I have bow proc as a spammable. I'll lose the GCD competition as well even if they didn't just streak away some room

Meanwhile, the mass of casual sorcs that push into keeps still het waxed.

Dueling a magsorc is a sustain game. Always has been.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

TechMaybeHic

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I tried to purge and roll a sorcs combos the other day. You know what happened? They rolled right into the next one. So I'd ultimately have to counter again. And again. And again. Until you realize your stam and mag pool combined is just barely enough to match their mag pool alone and the cost of ER and escalating roll dodge is less efficient.

Maybe; if you could apply pressure to the glass cannon? Oh wait. Their shield and heal tooltip without crit is about the amount an average merciless resolve proc actually hits for. So unless I have bow proc as a spammable. I'll lose the GCD competition as well even if they didn't just streak away some room

Meanwhile, the mass of casual sorcs that push into keeps still het waxed.

Dueling a magsorc is a sustain game. Always has been.

Yeah I never really "duel" but it naturally happens in Cyrodiil when stepping out of the zerg. Still; I'm not sure how even experienced duelers outlast the onslaught. I used to try to pull them into tighter quarters to be able to pressure them but that doesn't do much now.

xylena_lazarow

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'll say this, most of the time when I look back at gameplay footage where I die

I shouldn't find this as funny as I do. It's so weird on so many levels.

StaticWave wrote: »

Dueling a magsorc is a sustain game. Always has been.

Mathematically impossible to keep up with Sorc at equal skill. The full ranged kit guarantees the Sorc will have more attack opportunities, with instant reliable skills that benefit from auto aim. Ward independently guarantees the Sorc spends fewer resources and GCDs defensively, burning the candle at both ends. I like that call for a full class ban.

Bushido2513

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I tried to purge and roll a sorcs combos the other day. You know what happened? They rolled right into the next one. So I'd ultimately have to counter again. And again. And again. Until you realize your stam and mag pool combined is just barely enough to match their mag pool alone and the cost of ER and escalating roll dodge is less efficient.

Maybe; if you could apply pressure to the glass cannon? Oh wait. Their shield and heal tooltip without crit is about the amount an average merciless resolve proc actually hits for. So unless I have bow proc as a spammable. I'll lose the GCD competition as well even if they didn't just streak away some room

Meanwhile, the mass of casual sorcs that push into keeps still het waxed.

Everyone plays different but purge roll is usually just a stabilizer that you top off with a defense/ offense combination. Gotta be able to disrupt the enemies combo or change something up if you're unable to

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

I'll say this, most of the time when I look back at gameplay footage where I die

I shouldn't find this as funny as I do. It's so weird on so many levels.

StaticWave wrote: »

Dueling a magsorc is a sustain game. Always has been.

Mathematically impossible to keep up with Sorc at equal skill. The full ranged kit guarantees the Sorc will have more attack opportunities, with instant reliable skills that benefit from auto aim. Ward independently guarantees the Sorc spends fewer resources and GCDs defensively, burning the candle at both ends. I like that call for a full class ban.

Hey we all have to get our kicks somewhere, enjoy whatever it is that's making you smile.


Yes I don't think anyone can debate that 1v1 with a sorc of equal or greater skill either gets you killed or in a stalemate but a few classes can say that.

Game just isn't balanced for 1v1 period

StaticWave

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I tried to purge and roll a sorcs combos the other day. You know what happened? They rolled right into the next one. So I'd ultimately have to counter again. And again. And again. Until you realize your stam and mag pool combined is just barely enough to match their mag pool alone and the cost of ER and escalating roll dodge is less efficient.

Maybe; if you could apply pressure to the glass cannon? Oh wait. Their shield and heal tooltip without crit is about the amount an average merciless resolve proc actually hits for. So unless I have bow proc as a spammable. I'll lose the GCD competition as well even if they didn't just streak away some room

Meanwhile, the mass of casual sorcs that push into keeps still het waxed.

Dueling a magsorc is a sustain game. Always has been.

Yeah I never really "duel" but it naturally happens in Cyrodiil when stepping out of the zerg. Still; I'm not sure how even experienced duelers outlast the onslaught. I used to try to pull them into tighter quarters to be able to pressure them but that doesn't do much now.

Yep, several ppl here keep saying dueling is a hypothetical situation but it exists everywhere outside of BGs. I’ve done many naturally occurring duels in Cyrodiil/IC, and they usually occur when someone is the last man standing or if they get picked. Ppl that deny this are either lying to themselves or have never done any solo/small scale PvP.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

Those numbers were fully buffed. I didn’t just pull them out of my arse. Read above in my previous comment.

StaticWave

StaticWave wrote: »

And for the people that think Merciless Resolve is better than Curse + Frag, I'm going to have to correct you here because that's just flat-out wrong. There are 3 things you need to remember:

1) Merciless Resolve hits like a truck AFTER receiving Incap debuff
2) Merciless Resolve is not a delayed burst
3) Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable

Due to these 3 reasons, the NB will have to spend 2 GCDs to setup its burst combo (Incap + Merciless Resolve), and make sure that they catch someone off-guard with Off-Balance to guarantee a hit.

In contrast, Sorc does NOT need to worry about this because:

1) Curse is unblockable, meaning nearly half of Sorc's burst is guaranteed to go through
2) Curse is a true delayed burst, meaning it can be combined with another skill in the same GCD to yield a bigger damage value

I went ahead and tested in game to prove my point. My test involved damage taken from a crit Merciless Resolve before AND after Incap debuff, and from a crit Frag + Curse combo. The NB had 26.5k HP with 140 Balorgh ult, and the magsorc had 32k HP with 51k max mag. My resistances are shown below:



And in case you don't believe that the NB had 26.5k HP and the magsorc had 32k HP, here are the screenshots of their HP:

NB:


Magsorc:


Let's look at the numbers for NB.

Here's Merciless Resolve before Incap:



Here's Merciless Resolve after Incap and 140 Balorgh:




Now let's look at the value for Curse + cFrag:




So before Incap, Merciless Resolve critted for 13.3k. After Incap and with 140 Balorgh, Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. Big numbers against a fairly built player like me. But wait, look at the magsorc instead. His Curse critted for 7.7k, and his cFrag critted for 9.6k. That's a 17.3k combined value in 1 GCD. Not amplified by a 140 Balorgh ult or 20% extra damage taken. Literally BASE value. Let's also mention the fact that the Sorc has 6k more HP than the NB.

You literally have to be debuffed by Incap to be taking anything more than 13k from Merciless Resolve. Without the debuff, you're not even matching the same potential as a single Curse + cFrag combo. This is not even mentioning the fact that I can hold block and shut down Merciless Resolve completely, whereas I will still be eating a 7.7k crit Curse through my block.

Assuming I have 60% block mitigation, a 13.3k crit Merciless Resolve will only deal 5.3k damage to me. With that same mitigation, I will take 7.7k damage from Curse, plus another 3.8k from cFrag, totalling 11.5k. More than twice the damage through block, and you're telling me it can only kill noobs? Please lol

@Bushido2513 Both tests were done fully buffed.
Magsorc had 32k HP and 51k max mag. NB had 26.5k HP. If the magsorc stacked 55k+ max mag you would see even bigger Curse + cFrag values.

FYI, that magsorc was using Crushing Weapon, not Ele Sus, meaning less raw damage from losing Minor Brittle and Minor Vul. Yet it could still do 7.7k Curse and 9.6k cFrag lol.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

[snip]

Here's an argument. Sorc combo is easier and possesses "the element of surprise" because it is ranged. It also does not require an ultimate or 5 stacks of something. If it whiffs you can literally just do it again and again and again because you have like 65k mag.

Even in melee it stomps NB combo because nearly half of it is unblockable/undogable. My stamsorc can 100-20% someone way easier than a NB, and I can do it consistently. No need to wait for 5 bow stacks and combo around Off Balance/Incap. I literally just mash buttons and still pull off burst because it’s that good.

[edited to remove quote]

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And for the people that think Merciless Resolve is better than Curse + Frag, I'm going to have to correct you here because that's just flat-out wrong. There are 3 things you need to remember:

1) Merciless Resolve hits like a truck AFTER receiving Incap debuff
2) Merciless Resolve is not a delayed burst
3) Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable

Due to these 3 reasons, the NB will have to spend 2 GCDs to setup its burst combo (Incap + Merciless Resolve), and make sure that they catch someone off-guard with Off-Balance to guarantee a hit.

In contrast, Sorc does NOT need to worry about this because:

1) Curse is unblockable, meaning nearly half of Sorc's burst is guaranteed to go through
2) Curse is a true delayed burst, meaning it can be combined with another skill in the same GCD to yield a bigger damage value

I went ahead and tested in game to prove my point. My test involved damage taken from a crit Merciless Resolve before AND after Incap debuff, and from a crit Frag + Curse combo. The NB had 26.5k HP with 140 Balorgh ult, and the magsorc had 32k HP with 51k max mag. My resistances are shown below:



And in case you don't believe that the NB had 26.5k HP and the magsorc had 32k HP, here are the screenshots of their HP:

NB:


Magsorc:


Let's look at the numbers for NB.

Here's Merciless Resolve before Incap:



Here's Merciless Resolve after Incap and 140 Balorgh:




Now let's look at the value for Curse + cFrag:




So before Incap, Merciless Resolve critted for 13.3k. After Incap and with 140 Balorgh, Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. Big numbers against a fairly built player like me. But wait, look at the magsorc instead. His Curse critted for 7.7k, and his cFrag critted for 9.6k. That's a 17.3k combined value in 1 GCD. Not amplified by a 140 Balorgh ult or 20% extra damage taken. Literally BASE value. Let's also mention the fact that the Sorc has 6k more HP than the NB.

You literally have to be debuffed by Incap to be taking anything more than 13k from Merciless Resolve. Without the debuff, you're not even matching the same potential as a single Curse + cFrag combo. This is not even mentioning the fact that I can hold block and shut down Merciless Resolve completely, whereas I will still be eating a 7.7k crit Curse through my block.

Assuming I have 60% block mitigation, a 13.3k crit Merciless Resolve will only deal 5.3k damage to me. With that same mitigation, I will take 7.7k damage from Curse, plus another 3.8k from cFrag, totalling 11.5k. More than twice the damage through block, and you're telling me it can only kill noobs? Please lol

@Bushido2513 Both tests were done fully buffed.
Magsorc had 32k HP and 51k max mag. NB had 26.5k HP. If the magsorc stacked 55k+ max mag you would see even bigger Curse + cFrag values.

FYI, that magsorc was using Crushing Weapon, not Ele Sus, meaning less raw damage from losing Minor Brittle and Minor Vul. Yet it could still do 7.7k Curse and 9.6k cFrag lol.

I'm saying if you adjust for the NB having more chance to crit and having more damage when it crits vs the sorc having no modifiers. I'm saying not one for one but if you take the percentage chance of it happening over the course of a flight and use the average of the damage what would those numbers be? Like if the NB crits x times more often than the sorc and does x percent more damage that would change the resulting numbers I would think.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

Also why are we comparing one skill to two skills as if a NB is just throwing Mr with nothing else?

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I tried to purge and roll a sorcs combos the other day. You know what happened? They rolled right into the next one. So I'd ultimately have to counter again. And again. And again. Until you realize your stam and mag pool combined is just barely enough to match their mag pool alone and the cost of ER and escalating roll dodge is less efficient.

Maybe; if you could apply pressure to the glass cannon? Oh wait. Their shield and heal tooltip without crit is about the amount an average merciless resolve proc actually hits for. So unless I have bow proc as a spammable. I'll lose the GCD competition as well even if they didn't just streak away some room

Meanwhile, the mass of casual sorcs that push into keeps still het waxed.

Dueling a magsorc is a sustain game. Always has been.

Yeah I never really "duel" but it naturally happens in Cyrodiil when stepping out of the zerg. Still; I'm not sure how even experienced duelers outlast the onslaught. I used to try to pull them into tighter quarters to be able to pressure them but that doesn't do much now.

Yep, several ppl here keep saying dueling is a hypothetical situation but it exists everywhere outside of BGs. I’ve done many naturally occurring duels in Cyrodiil/IC, and they usually occur when someone is the last man standing or if they get picked. Ppl that deny this are either lying to themselves or have never done any solo/small scale PvP.

A duel that is eventually subject to interruption isn't really a duel. It's not to say that you never get to duel someone to an uninterrupted conclusion in open world because you do. I would just say it's likely a low percentage of your open world playtime. I've had way more 1v1s interrupted than I've had 1v1s without interruption

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

And for the people that think Merciless Resolve is better than Curse + Frag, I'm going to have to correct you here because that's just flat-out wrong. There are 3 things you need to remember:

1) Merciless Resolve hits like a truck AFTER receiving Incap debuff
2) Merciless Resolve is not a delayed burst
3) Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable

Due to these 3 reasons, the NB will have to spend 2 GCDs to setup its burst combo (Incap + Merciless Resolve), and make sure that they catch someone off-guard with Off-Balance to guarantee a hit.

In contrast, Sorc does NOT need to worry about this because:

1) Curse is unblockable, meaning nearly half of Sorc's burst is guaranteed to go through
2) Curse is a true delayed burst, meaning it can be combined with another skill in the same GCD to yield a bigger damage value

I went ahead and tested in game to prove my point. My test involved damage taken from a crit Merciless Resolve before AND after Incap debuff, and from a crit Frag + Curse combo. The NB had 26.5k HP with 140 Balorgh ult, and the magsorc had 32k HP with 51k max mag. My resistances are shown below:



And in case you don't believe that the NB had 26.5k HP and the magsorc had 32k HP, here are the screenshots of their HP:

NB:


Magsorc:


Let's look at the numbers for NB.

Here's Merciless Resolve before Incap:



Here's Merciless Resolve after Incap and 140 Balorgh:




Now let's look at the value for Curse + cFrag:




So before Incap, Merciless Resolve critted for 13.3k. After Incap and with 140 Balorgh, Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. Big numbers against a fairly built player like me. But wait, look at the magsorc instead. His Curse critted for 7.7k, and his cFrag critted for 9.6k. That's a 17.3k combined value in 1 GCD. Not amplified by a 140 Balorgh ult or 20% extra damage taken. Literally BASE value. Let's also mention the fact that the Sorc has 6k more HP than the NB.

You literally have to be debuffed by Incap to be taking anything more than 13k from Merciless Resolve. Without the debuff, you're not even matching the same potential as a single Curse + cFrag combo. This is not even mentioning the fact that I can hold block and shut down Merciless Resolve completely, whereas I will still be eating a 7.7k crit Curse through my block.

Assuming I have 60% block mitigation, a 13.3k crit Merciless Resolve will only deal 5.3k damage to me. With that same mitigation, I will take 7.7k damage from Curse, plus another 3.8k from cFrag, totalling 11.5k. More than twice the damage through block, and you're telling me it can only kill noobs? Please lol

@Bushido2513 Both tests were done fully buffed.
Magsorc had 32k HP and 51k max mag. NB had 26.5k HP. If the magsorc stacked 55k+ max mag you would see even bigger Curse + cFrag values.

FYI, that magsorc was using Crushing Weapon, not Ele Sus, meaning less raw damage from losing Minor Brittle and Minor Vul. Yet it could still do 7.7k Curse and 9.6k cFrag lol.

I'm saying if you adjust for the NB having more chance to crit and having more damage when it crits vs the sorc having no modifiers. I'm saying not one for one but if you take the percentage chance of it happening over the course of a flight and use the average of the damage what would those numbers be? Like if the NB crits x times more often than the sorc and does x percent more damage that would change the resulting numbers I would think.

I explained afterwards and I think you read it too so no need to address this again

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

Also why are we comparing one skill to two skills as if a NB is just throwing Mr with nothing else?

Because you need 3 criteria to judge the strength of a burst combo:

- GCD cost
- Total damage value
- How much of that damage is going through

If we just look at damage value, then Merciless Resolve is always going to beat Curse or cFrag/spammable because individually it hits harder. When we include the remaining 2 criteria, then things change completely.

1) GCD cost

It takes 5 light attacks or 2 heavy attacks + 1 light attack to get a full stack Merciless Resolve. I'm going to exclude scenarios where you're just spamming light attacks to reach max stacks, because it's not practical and not realistic. People are going to light attack weave with every skill, which means a total of 5 GCDs spent before they can use Merciless Resolve. Even if they do a heavy attack, it will still cost the same amount of GCDs as heavy attack animations are slower.

Meanwhile, Curse has a 3.5s delay, and only deals damage after 3.5s, so individually it's going to cost 3.5 GCD before it does damage. Whether it does damage right at the moment you cast or after 3.5 is irrelevant. cFrag is a bit more random because you may or may not get the proc when Curse goes off. To make the comparison consistent, I'm going to use the worst case scenario, which is when cFrag DOESN'T proc when Curse goes off. Since Curse is a delayed burst and you can time a spammable together with it, the cost is still 3.5s.

You can see it easily when I lay out the combos below:

NB:

LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable (4 GCD) > LA > Merciless Resolve (5 GCD)

Sorc:

LA > Curse > LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable + Curse goes off 0.5s early (3.5 GCD)

So when we compare the GCD consumption criteria, you can already see that Curse + spammable beats Merciless Resolve. Curse goes off slightly earlier during the 4th GCD, so it counts as 3.5 GCD, but is still within the 4 GCD window. Meanwhile, Merciless Resolve needs 5 GCDs to deal damage.

2) Damage value

This criteria somewhat depends on your opponent's build, but let’s say both NB and Sorc opponents are competent and using min-maxed setups. I've fought many magsorcs and NB, and can get a general idea of how hard Curse and Merciless Resolve hit on average. I've also included a damage value test in my previous comments, so I'll add them here again:

Merciless Resolve before Balorgh and Incap:

Merciless Resolve after Balorgh and Incap:

Curse, cFrag, and Spammable:

The magsorc I tested with had 32k HP and 51k max mag. The NB had 26.5k HP and was in Balorgh. I did not know other sets they were using, but that's not really a concern. My resistances stayed unchanged for both tests at 28k spell resist and 56% crit damage mitigation, as seen below:

Merciless Resolve damage values on me before Balorgh + Incap was 13.3k crit. After using 140 ult Balorgh, his Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. At only 140 ult, this value is considered high damage if you consider my mitigation.

In contrast, Curse critted for 7.7k. Since we're not using cFrag damage values, I'll just use the NON CRIT value of Elemental Weapon, which is 4.4k. I have no idea how hard it will crit for, but I can make a guess using the average values for other skills. He used light attacks 3 times and it critted twice. Its average damage value is 1664 and its maximum value is 1822. My guess is his crit damage hovers at around 65% or so, which is inline with what a typical magsorc would sit at. Therefore, that 4.4k non crit Elemental Weapon will possibly crit for around 5k-5.5k damage, but let's just use 5k for argument's sake.

So 7.7k crit Curse + 5k crit Elemental Weapon = 12.7k total burst combo. Merciless Resolve beats Curse + Spammable combo this round. HOWEVER, things are different when you use cFrag, which has a 9.6k crit value. Now the tables turn because Curse + cFrag will hit for 17.3k total damage value, which is literally HIGHER than a crit Merciless Resolve that got amplified by 140 ult Balorgh + Incap lol.

Just from that sheer fact alone, Curse combo beats Merciless Resolve in this criteria as well

3) How much of that damage goes through

Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning it will either be mitigated 100%, or on average 60% if an opponent is blocking on Ice Staff/SnB. That means a 13.3k Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 5.3k damage to a blocking target. An amplified Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 6.8k damage to a blocking target.

Elemental Weapon and cFrag are also 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning they will do 0 damage if dodged or 2k and 3.8k, respectively, to a blocking target. Curse is unblockable and undogable though, and can only be removed with cleanse (which not many classes have), so it will deal the full 7.7k damage through a dodging or blocking target.

That means the Elemental Weapon + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 2k + 7.7k = 9.7k damage to a blocking target. cFrag + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 11.5k damage to a blocking target.

9.7k > 5.3k
9.7k > 6.8k
11.5k > 5.3k
11.5k > 6.8k

There is no reality where Merciless Resolve is beating Curse + spammable or whatever damage skill you add to this equation simply because Curse is 100% undodgable/unblockable and has a fat tooltip, while Merciless Resolve, despite its fat tooltip, is 100% dodgable/blockable. Sorc takes this round too

When you consider all 3 criteria, Sorc beats NB in every single one of them. This is easily demonstrated at high level PvP where people block/dodge more often. Both classes have predictable burst, but Sorc's combo is guaranteed to have nearly half of its damage go through, whereas NB can either kill someone in 2 GCDs (Incap + Merciless Resolve), or get shut down completely if an opponent block cancels everything. The only real counter to Sorc's combo is a cleanse, which only Templar has reliable access to (Cleanse CP doesn't count because it's unreliable).

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

Also why are we comparing one skill to two skills as if a NB is just throwing Mr with nothing else?

Because you need 3 criteria to judge the strength of a burst combo:

- GCD cost
- Total damage value
- How much of that damage is going through

If we just look at damage value, then Merciless Resolve is always going to beat Curse or cFrag/spammable because individually it hits harder. When we include the remaining 2 criteria, then things change completely.

1) GCD cost

It takes 5 light attacks or 2 heavy attacks + 1 light attack to get a full stack Merciless Resolve. I'm going to exclude scenarios where you're just spamming light attacks to reach max stacks, because it's not practical and not realistic. People are going to light attack weave with every skill, which means a total of 5 GCDs spent before they can use Merciless Resolve. Even if they do a heavy attack, it will still cost the same amount of GCDs as heavy attack animations are slower.

Meanwhile, Curse has a 3.5s delay, and only deals damage after 3.5s, so individually it's going to cost 3.5 GCD before it does damage. Whether it does damage right at the moment you cast or after 3.5 is irrelevant. cFrag is a bit more random because you may or may not get the proc when Curse goes off. To make the comparison consistent, I'm going to use the worst case scenario, which is when cFrag DOESN'T proc when Curse goes off. Since Curse is a delayed burst and you can time a spammable together with it, the cost is still 3.5s.

You can see it easily when I lay out the combos below:

NB:

LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable (4 GCD) > LA > Merciless Resolve (5 GCD)

Sorc:

LA > Curse > LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable + Curse goes off 0.5s early (3.5 GCD)

So when we compare the GCD consumption criteria, you can already see that Curse + spammable beats Merciless Resolve. Curse goes off slightly earlier during the 4th GCD, so it counts as 3.5 GCD, but is still within the 4 GCD window. Meanwhile, Merciless Resolve needs 5 GCDs to deal damage.

2) Damage value

This criteria somewhat depends on your opponent's build, but let’s say both NB and Sorc opponents are competent and using min-maxed setups. I've fought many magsorcs and NB, and can get a general idea of how hard Curse and Merciless Resolve hit on average. I've also included a damage value test in my previous comments, so I'll add them here again:

Merciless Resolve before Balorgh and Incap:

Merciless Resolve after Balorgh and Incap:

Curse, cFrag, and Spammable:

The magsorc I tested with had 32k HP and 51k max mag. The NB had 26.5k HP and was in Balorgh. I did not know other sets they were using, but that's not really a concern. My resistances stayed unchanged for both tests at 28k spell resist and 56% crit damage mitigation, as seen below:

Merciless Resolve damage values on me before Balorgh + Incap was 13.3k crit. After using 140 ult Balorgh, his Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. At only 140 ult, this value is considered high damage if you consider my mitigation.

In contrast, Curse critted for 7.7k. Since we're not using cFrag damage values, I'll just use the NON CRIT value of Elemental Weapon, which is 4.4k. I have no idea how hard it will crit for, but I can make a guess using the average values for other skills. He used light attacks 3 times and it critted twice. Its average damage value is 1664 and its maximum value is 1822. My guess is his crit damage hovers at around 65% or so, which is inline with what a typical magsorc would sit at. Therefore, that 4.4k non crit Elemental Weapon will possibly crit for around 5k-5.5k damage, but let's just use 5k for argument's sake.

So 7.7k crit Curse + 5k crit Elemental Weapon = 12.7k total burst combo. Merciless Resolve beats Curse + Spammable combo this round. HOWEVER, things are different when you use cFrag, which has a 9.6k crit value. Now the tables turn because Curse + cFrag will hit for 17.3k total damage value, which is literally HIGHER than a crit Merciless Resolve that got amplified by 140 ult Balorgh + Incap lol.

Just from that sheer fact alone, Curse combo beats Merciless Resolve in this criteria as well

3) How much of that damage goes through

Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning it will either be mitigated 100%, or on average 60% if an opponent is blocking on Ice Staff/SnB. That means a 13.3k Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 5.3k damage to a blocking target. An amplified Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 6.8k damage to a blocking target.

Elemental Weapon and cFrag are also 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning they will do 0 damage if dodged or 2k and 3.8k, respectively, to a blocking target. Curse is unblockable and undogable though, and can only be removed with cleanse (which not many classes have), so it will deal the full 7.7k damage through a dodging or blocking target.

That means the Elemental Weapon + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 2k + 7.7k = 9.7k damage to a blocking target. cFrag + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 11.5k damage to a blocking target.

9.7k > 5.3k
9.7k > 6.8k
11.5k > 5.3k
11.5k > 6.8k

There is no reality where Merciless Resolve is beating Curse + spammable or whatever damage skill you add to this equation simply because Curse is 100% undodgable/unblockable and has a fat tooltip, while Merciless Resolve, despite its fat tooltip, is 100% dodgable/blockable. Sorc takes this round too

When you consider all 3 criteria, Sorc beats NB in every single one of them. This is easily demonstrated at high level PvP where people block/dodge more often. Both classes have predictable burst, but Sorc's combo is guaranteed to have nearly half of its damage go through, whereas NB can either kill someone in 2 GCDs (Incap + Merciless Resolve), or get shut down completely if an opponent block cancels everything. The only real counter to Sorc's combo is a cleanse, which only Templar has reliable access to (Cleanse CP doesn't count because it's unreliable).

Ok first I appreciate you going to such depth on the testing and math. I'm not going to argue math that was observed in testing.

Unblockable is just that so there's really no arguing that either.

I will say though that this all is of course just a portion of the combat. Yes as a sorc you can throw curses and frags all day but a player of equal skill can usually work around it.

And of course we can say a NB works harder by going into stealth to force the crit on the next attack but the players also probably won't sit there and hold block all day waiting for an attack that may or may not come.

On paper this argument seems to check out. ESO combat in full would be more than this one aspect though.

StaticWave

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

Also why are we comparing one skill to two skills as if a NB is just throwing Mr with nothing else?

Because you need 3 criteria to judge the strength of a burst combo:

- GCD cost
- Total damage value
- How much of that damage is going through

If we just look at damage value, then Merciless Resolve is always going to beat Curse or cFrag/spammable because individually it hits harder. When we include the remaining 2 criteria, then things change completely.

1) GCD cost

It takes 5 light attacks or 2 heavy attacks + 1 light attack to get a full stack Merciless Resolve. I'm going to exclude scenarios where you're just spamming light attacks to reach max stacks, because it's not practical and not realistic. People are going to light attack weave with every skill, which means a total of 5 GCDs spent before they can use Merciless Resolve. Even if they do a heavy attack, it will still cost the same amount of GCDs as heavy attack animations are slower.

Meanwhile, Curse has a 3.5s delay, and only deals damage after 3.5s, so individually it's going to cost 3.5 GCD before it does damage. Whether it does damage right at the moment you cast or after 3.5 is irrelevant. cFrag is a bit more random because you may or may not get the proc when Curse goes off. To make the comparison consistent, I'm going to use the worst case scenario, which is when cFrag DOESN'T proc when Curse goes off. Since Curse is a delayed burst and you can time a spammable together with it, the cost is still 3.5s.

You can see it easily when I lay out the combos below:

NB:

LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable (4 GCD) > LA > Merciless Resolve (5 GCD)

Sorc:

LA > Curse > LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable + Curse goes off 0.5s early (3.5 GCD)

So when we compare the GCD consumption criteria, you can already see that Curse + spammable beats Merciless Resolve. Curse goes off slightly earlier during the 4th GCD, so it counts as 3.5 GCD, but is still within the 4 GCD window. Meanwhile, Merciless Resolve needs 5 GCDs to deal damage.

2) Damage value

This criteria somewhat depends on your opponent's build, but let’s say both NB and Sorc opponents are competent and using min-maxed setups. I've fought many magsorcs and NB, and can get a general idea of how hard Curse and Merciless Resolve hit on average. I've also included a damage value test in my previous comments, so I'll add them here again:

Merciless Resolve before Balorgh and Incap:

Merciless Resolve after Balorgh and Incap:

Curse, cFrag, and Spammable:

The magsorc I tested with had 32k HP and 51k max mag. The NB had 26.5k HP and was in Balorgh. I did not know other sets they were using, but that's not really a concern. My resistances stayed unchanged for both tests at 28k spell resist and 56% crit damage mitigation, as seen below:

Merciless Resolve damage values on me before Balorgh + Incap was 13.3k crit. After using 140 ult Balorgh, his Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. At only 140 ult, this value is considered high damage if you consider my mitigation.

In contrast, Curse critted for 7.7k. Since we're not using cFrag damage values, I'll just use the NON CRIT value of Elemental Weapon, which is 4.4k. I have no idea how hard it will crit for, but I can make a guess using the average values for other skills. He used light attacks 3 times and it critted twice. Its average damage value is 1664 and its maximum value is 1822. My guess is his crit damage hovers at around 65% or so, which is inline with what a typical magsorc would sit at. Therefore, that 4.4k non crit Elemental Weapon will possibly crit for around 5k-5.5k damage, but let's just use 5k for argument's sake.

So 7.7k crit Curse + 5k crit Elemental Weapon = 12.7k total burst combo. Merciless Resolve beats Curse + Spammable combo this round. HOWEVER, things are different when you use cFrag, which has a 9.6k crit value. Now the tables turn because Curse + cFrag will hit for 17.3k total damage value, which is literally HIGHER than a crit Merciless Resolve that got amplified by 140 ult Balorgh + Incap lol.

Just from that sheer fact alone, Curse combo beats Merciless Resolve in this criteria as well

3) How much of that damage goes through

Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning it will either be mitigated 100%, or on average 60% if an opponent is blocking on Ice Staff/SnB. That means a 13.3k Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 5.3k damage to a blocking target. An amplified Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 6.8k damage to a blocking target.

Elemental Weapon and cFrag are also 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning they will do 0 damage if dodged or 2k and 3.8k, respectively, to a blocking target. Curse is unblockable and undogable though, and can only be removed with cleanse (which not many classes have), so it will deal the full 7.7k damage through a dodging or blocking target.

That means the Elemental Weapon + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 2k + 7.7k = 9.7k damage to a blocking target. cFrag + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 11.5k damage to a blocking target.

9.7k > 5.3k
9.7k > 6.8k
11.5k > 5.3k
11.5k > 6.8k

There is no reality where Merciless Resolve is beating Curse + spammable or whatever damage skill you add to this equation simply because Curse is 100% undodgable/unblockable and has a fat tooltip, while Merciless Resolve, despite its fat tooltip, is 100% dodgable/blockable. Sorc takes this round too

When you consider all 3 criteria, Sorc beats NB in every single one of them. This is easily demonstrated at high level PvP where people block/dodge more often. Both classes have predictable burst, but Sorc's combo is guaranteed to have nearly half of its damage go through, whereas NB can either kill someone in 2 GCDs (Incap + Merciless Resolve), or get shut down completely if an opponent block cancels everything. The only real counter to Sorc's combo is a cleanse, which only Templar has reliable access to (Cleanse CP doesn't count because it's unreliable).

Ok first I appreciate you going to such depth on the testing and math. I'm not going to argue math that was observed in testing.

Unblockable is just that so there's really no arguing that either.

I will say though that this all is of course just a portion of the combat. Yes as a sorc you can throw curses and frags all day but a player of equal skill can usually work around it.

And of course we can say a NB works harder by going into stealth to force the crit on the next attack but the players also probably won't sit there and hold block all day waiting for an attack that may or may not come.

On paper this argument seems to check out. ESO combat in full would be more than this one aspect though.

No, it checks out in a real fight too.

Judging from past reactions in this thread, I can arguably say that I duel the most here. I can tell you every single NB fight looks like this:

The NB tries to hit me > I block cast everything > My HP barely dents > the NB HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth because Curse goes through block and drops his HP, forcing him to heal up > rinse repeat

The only chance he can get me is when I drop block, either due to latency or if I make a mistake in blocking. A good NB can force you to drop block earlier with LA + spammable + bash combo to drain your stam, but you can build to counter it as melee or simply kite as a ranged player.

Against a Sorc, my HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth even if I block lol. They can also force my block to drop with Streak, and force me to eat the cFrag afterwards because there’s a slight delay when breaking free from Streak. You’re almost guaranteed to land the cFrag or ult after Streaking thru someone.

It took me several months adjusting my playstyle block cast more, and NB has not been an issue for me. Sorc however, is annoying to deal with. Even though I can block cFrag or a spammable, I simply can’t block Curse. They can also force me to drop block with Streak too.

Bushido2513

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Why are some ppl arguing that a combo that’s 100% blockable is somehow better than combo that’s only 50% blockable.

I have 60% block mitigation. Let’s say for argument’s sake, I limit Curse + cFrag combo to deal the same damage as Merc Resolve. I will then take these damage values:

1) A 13.3k Merc Resolve
2) A 7.7k cFrag and 5.6k Curse (scaled down proportionately from 9.6k cFrag and 7.7k Curse), totaling 13.3k

Apply the 60% block mitigation, I now take 5.3k Merc Resolve. In contrast, I will take 3k cFrag and 5.6k Curse since Curse is unblockable, totaling 8.6k.

8.6k > 5.3k

Even if Curse isn’t critting, it’s still going to do equal or more damage thru block than Merc Resolve, while having the potential to do even more damage when critting.

So you're looking at the damage but how long does each of those take to complete?

Also these days with the way the game is built are people better at healing through damage or timing out block. Personally I block some specific things but tend to mitigate others in other ways. I have a little time to mitigate a curse frag in a few ways where I tend to not think too much about blocking bows especially when a player is good at feints.

Just offering perspective but yes some players will mitigate curse with back to back frags and others will block your bow like they are reading your mind. It's just relative

It takes 5 seconds to get full Merciless Resolve stacks. It takes 3.5s to get a cFrag + Curse combo if lucky, or slightly more if not. Even if you don’t get cFrag within that window, there’s still the spammable + Curse combo.

When not blocked, 4k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 9.6k total damage. When blocked with 60% block mitigation, 1.6k spammable + 5.6k Curse deal 7.2k total damage.

7.2k spammable + Curse > 5.3k Merciless Resolve.

As long as a large portion of Sorc’s damage is unblockable, it’s always going to outperform Merciless Resolve.

Yeah but what are we doing with the higher crit damage and chance multipliers that the NB will have? That math still has to be accounted for right?

It doesn’t matter. A crit Merciless Resolve before 140 Balorgh ult and Incap debuff was hitting me for 13.3k CRIT. With Balorfh and Incap debuff, it was hitting me for 17k. Curse + cFrag were hitting me for 7.7k and 9.6k CRIT, totaling 17.3k damage. Even higher than an amplified Merciless Resolve and can be consistently applied at anytime lol.

That magsorc had no Minor Brittle, and probably no Shadow either, so his crit damage was definitely 55-65%. Even if both Curse and cFrag didn’t crit, they would still do 15k+ total damage, almost 2k higher than a CRIT Merciless Resolve.

This is again, not going into the details of which combo is more avoidable, which I’ve already explained previously.

Also why are we comparing one skill to two skills as if a NB is just throwing Mr with nothing else?

Because you need 3 criteria to judge the strength of a burst combo:

- GCD cost
- Total damage value
- How much of that damage is going through

If we just look at damage value, then Merciless Resolve is always going to beat Curse or cFrag/spammable because individually it hits harder. When we include the remaining 2 criteria, then things change completely.

1) GCD cost

It takes 5 light attacks or 2 heavy attacks + 1 light attack to get a full stack Merciless Resolve. I'm going to exclude scenarios where you're just spamming light attacks to reach max stacks, because it's not practical and not realistic. People are going to light attack weave with every skill, which means a total of 5 GCDs spent before they can use Merciless Resolve. Even if they do a heavy attack, it will still cost the same amount of GCDs as heavy attack animations are slower.

Meanwhile, Curse has a 3.5s delay, and only deals damage after 3.5s, so individually it's going to cost 3.5 GCD before it does damage. Whether it does damage right at the moment you cast or after 3.5 is irrelevant. cFrag is a bit more random because you may or may not get the proc when Curse goes off. To make the comparison consistent, I'm going to use the worst case scenario, which is when cFrag DOESN'T proc when Curse goes off. Since Curse is a delayed burst and you can time a spammable together with it, the cost is still 3.5s.

You can see it easily when I lay out the combos below:

NB:

LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable (4 GCD) > LA > Merciless Resolve (5 GCD)

Sorc:

LA > Curse > LA > Spammable (1 GCD) > LA > Spammable (2 GCD) > LA > Spammable (3 GCD) > LA > Spammable + Curse goes off 0.5s early (3.5 GCD)

So when we compare the GCD consumption criteria, you can already see that Curse + spammable beats Merciless Resolve. Curse goes off slightly earlier during the 4th GCD, so it counts as 3.5 GCD, but is still within the 4 GCD window. Meanwhile, Merciless Resolve needs 5 GCDs to deal damage.

2) Damage value

This criteria somewhat depends on your opponent's build, but let’s say both NB and Sorc opponents are competent and using min-maxed setups. I've fought many magsorcs and NB, and can get a general idea of how hard Curse and Merciless Resolve hit on average. I've also included a damage value test in my previous comments, so I'll add them here again:

Merciless Resolve before Balorgh and Incap:

Merciless Resolve after Balorgh and Incap:

Curse, cFrag, and Spammable:

The magsorc I tested with had 32k HP and 51k max mag. The NB had 26.5k HP and was in Balorgh. I did not know other sets they were using, but that's not really a concern. My resistances stayed unchanged for both tests at 28k spell resist and 56% crit damage mitigation, as seen below:

Merciless Resolve damage values on me before Balorgh + Incap was 13.3k crit. After using 140 ult Balorgh, his Merciless Resolve critted for 17k. At only 140 ult, this value is considered high damage if you consider my mitigation.

In contrast, Curse critted for 7.7k. Since we're not using cFrag damage values, I'll just use the NON CRIT value of Elemental Weapon, which is 4.4k. I have no idea how hard it will crit for, but I can make a guess using the average values for other skills. He used light attacks 3 times and it critted twice. Its average damage value is 1664 and its maximum value is 1822. My guess is his crit damage hovers at around 65% or so, which is inline with what a typical magsorc would sit at. Therefore, that 4.4k non crit Elemental Weapon will possibly crit for around 5k-5.5k damage, but let's just use 5k for argument's sake.

So 7.7k crit Curse + 5k crit Elemental Weapon = 12.7k total burst combo. Merciless Resolve beats Curse + Spammable combo this round. HOWEVER, things are different when you use cFrag, which has a 9.6k crit value. Now the tables turn because Curse + cFrag will hit for 17.3k total damage value, which is literally HIGHER than a crit Merciless Resolve that got amplified by 140 ult Balorgh + Incap lol.

Just from that sheer fact alone, Curse combo beats Merciless Resolve in this criteria as well

3) How much of that damage goes through

Merciless Resolve is 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning it will either be mitigated 100%, or on average 60% if an opponent is blocking on Ice Staff/SnB. That means a 13.3k Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 5.3k damage to a blocking target. An amplified Merciless Resolve will deal 0 damage if dodged or 6.8k damage to a blocking target.

Elemental Weapon and cFrag are also 100% blockable and dodgable, meaning they will do 0 damage if dodged or 2k and 3.8k, respectively, to a blocking target. Curse is unblockable and undogable though, and can only be removed with cleanse (which not many classes have), so it will deal the full 7.7k damage through a dodging or blocking target.

That means the Elemental Weapon + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 2k + 7.7k = 9.7k damage to a blocking target. cFrag + Curse combo will deal 7.7k damage to a dodging target and 11.5k damage to a blocking target.

9.7k > 5.3k
9.7k > 6.8k
11.5k > 5.3k
11.5k > 6.8k

There is no reality where Merciless Resolve is beating Curse + spammable or whatever damage skill you add to this equation simply because Curse is 100% undodgable/unblockable and has a fat tooltip, while Merciless Resolve, despite its fat tooltip, is 100% dodgable/blockable. Sorc takes this round too

When you consider all 3 criteria, Sorc beats NB in every single one of them. This is easily demonstrated at high level PvP where people block/dodge more often. Both classes have predictable burst, but Sorc's combo is guaranteed to have nearly half of its damage go through, whereas NB can either kill someone in 2 GCDs (Incap + Merciless Resolve), or get shut down completely if an opponent block cancels everything. The only real counter to Sorc's combo is a cleanse, which only Templar has reliable access to (Cleanse CP doesn't count because it's unreliable).

Ok first I appreciate you going to such depth on the testing and math. I'm not going to argue math that was observed in testing.

Unblockable is just that so there's really no arguing that either.

I will say though that this all is of course just a portion of the combat. Yes as a sorc you can throw curses and frags all day but a player of equal skill can usually work around it.

And of course we can say a NB works harder by going into stealth to force the crit on the next attack but the players also probably won't sit there and hold block all day waiting for an attack that may or may not come.

On paper this argument seems to check out. ESO combat in full would be more than this one aspect though.

No, it checks out in a real fight too.

Judging from past reactions in this thread, I can arguably say that I duel the most here. I can tell you every single NB fight looks like this:

The NB tries to hit me > I block cast everything > My HP barely dents > the NB HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth because Curse goes through block and drops his HP, forcing him to heal up > rinse repeat

The only chance he can get me is when I drop block, either due to latency or if I make a mistake in blocking. A good NB can force you to drop block earlier with LA + spammable + bash combo to drain your stam, but you can build to counter it as melee or simply kite as a ranged player.

Against a Sorc, my HP keeps yo-yoing back and forth even if I block lol. They can also force my block to drop with Streak, and force me to eat the cFrag afterwards because there’s a slight delay when breaking free from Streak. You’re almost guaranteed to land the cFrag or ult after Streaking thru someone.

It took me several months adjusting my playstyle block cast more, and NB has not been an issue for me. Sorc however, is annoying to deal with. Even though I can block cFrag or a spammable, I simply can’t block Curse. They can also force me to drop block with Streak too.

This has been somewhat my experience too and I should clarify that when I said it wasn't the whole story I was thinking of situations where you face an opponent better than yourself.

If you're equally matched then yes curse is just unblockable damage but not something that can't be healed through and it's likely going to come down to the first player to make a mistake.

If we talk about just these three skills and gcd value, etc then as I said the math checks out. But we don't always face players of the same skill level and not every player uses or tries to get better at block.

So for instance the math checks out but I don't block that much on my build and mitigate curses, frags, and bows just fine in other ways. Obviously there's sacrifice I make to do this but the point is that I likely won't have much trouble defending myself against either class in an evenly matched fight.

Digiman

Love this, people hating a class that was revived after being practically dead with a simple ability change that gives like 4k healing for them with battle spirit, want it gone without considering another solution to help the class survive.

Seriously if you want to know something, wretched vitality in combo with hardened ward is the problem. Sorce burn over 4k of magicka for a small heal.

Finally my NB is a beast to killing every class when compared to playing my sorc, I can simply do it blind folded. So please bugger off about this OP crap.

Honestly surprised people haven't seen the sleeping giant Vibrant shroud potential.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

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Thank you for your understanding.

xylena_lazarow

Digiman wrote: »

Honestly surprised people haven't seen the sleeping giant Vibrant shroud potential.

It's been cited plenty of times as strong skill and good reason Ward doesn't need a burst heal attached. Even that 4k on Ward is enough to get you out of the danger zone so your 16k shield doesn't get execute popped, completely eliminating the intended drawback to huge shields (they're supposed to still take execute damage when you shield at low hp). Nobody is arguing that Sorc didn't deserve buffs, they just badly overshot the mark with Coagulating Ward.

Bushido2513

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Honestly surprised people haven't seen the sleeping giant Vibrant shroud potential.

It's been cited plenty of times as strong skill and good reason Ward doesn't need a burst heal attached. Even that 4k on Ward is enough to get you out of the danger zone so your 16k shield doesn't get execute popped, completely eliminating the intended drawback to huge shields (they're supposed to still take execute damage when you shield at low hp). Nobody is arguing that Sorc didn't deserve buffs, they just badly overshot the mark with Coagulating Ward.

Curious to see if ZOS ever responds to the feedback one way or the other. If ward continues to stay unchanged maybe ZOS hit their intended mark?

Tcholl

One more player here that believes the ward buff is totally busted and this change should NEVER have reached the main server. You work hard to get the sorc in execute range, even spending your ulti in the process and it pops right back to full health will massive shields and infinite sustain. If you manage to survive the damage, this goes on over and over. Someone here said that the class was revived and by this comment you can tell how much difference one skill buff is making to the class at expense of the whole game experience (you are supose to die in pvp). It is getting to the point where we see much much more sorcs if compared to patches prior to this change. I really hope we see some correction to this awfull buff asap.

StaticWave

Digiman wrote: »

Love this, people hating a class that was revived after being practically dead with a simple ability change that gives like 4k healing for them with battle spirit

That simple change made it the best self-heal in the game. It's leagues above every single target burst heal right now. There is no weakness because Ward allows you to shield damage from burst, DoTs, and get out of execute phase. A burst heal cannot do all 3.

Digiman wrote: »

want it gone without considering another solution to help the class survive.

Did you forget Sorc also received several other changes?

- 10% max mag and stam (meaning bigger shield size and better healing)
- Blood Magic rework which allows you to proc the heal from this passive everytime you cast a Dark Magic ability. You're no longer limited to LANDING a cFrag to proc the heal anymore.
- Vibrant Shroud, which has the same tooltip as Artic Blast, but also applies Minor Vitality and Major Maim on targets. This skill also procs Blood Magic passive, giving you a competitive burst heal with similar tooltips to a single target burst heal, but is AoE
- Healing Contingency or Healing Soul from the scribing skill line are also very powerful and are being used by many builds. They even replaced some class burst heals because they are THAT strong

Digiman wrote: »

Seriously if you want to know something, wretched vitality in combo with hardened ward is the problem. Sorce burn over 4k of magicka for a small heal.

It's not even a small heal lol. On my 40k HP sorc it crits for 6.1k before keep buff. I've seen it crit for 8k on a high mag build.

You're also acting like the shield isn't aids to deal with. 14-15k shield with a 4-5k average heal makes it impossible to finish a magsorc.

Digiman wrote: »

Finally my NB is a beast to killing every class when compared to playing my sorc, I can simply do it blind folded. So please bugger off about this OP crap.

NB is a pug stomper. Good players rarely die to the NB. The combo is very predictable and most of it gets avoided if you just block or dodge at the right time. You can't block or dodge Curse or Streak, which are both unblockable and undodgable.