Hardened Ward heal making it to live is a mistake and needs to be changed

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot A pretty well-known PC EU magsorc posted a 1vX clip. You can see how Ward is tanky below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuB5J9tChk&t=224s

I can guarantee you no class can be tanky and have the same mobility. Dude just casually tanks people for a couple seconds (which all classes can do), and relocate to a different kiting spot in several seconds. That would require other classes to run through the open field.

I recognize about 70-80% of the names from the first clip of that video and can say with 100% certainty that there is a massive skill gap there between those players and that sorc (enough of a skill gap that even a player like me who I would say is only above average and definitely not in the top 1% would appear to be in the top 1% compared to those players).

The rest of the clips didn't look anything much beyond the standard 1vX/2vX clips either (i.e. typical huge skill difference between the 1, or in those clips the 2, and the X), with the enemies either not healing or spamming 1 ability + heavy/light attacks, etc.

Wish I had the capability to record.

My warden session from yesterday (well nearly 2 days ago now) had not only what I mentioned above with the multiple 3v1s, but also:
- multiple times I was tanking 10+ players in open field for a full minute before someone who had a rough idea of what to do showed up and perfectly timed a stun into burst which got me killed
- multiple situations where multiple NBs tried to gank me and failed every time
- even 1 situation where a small to medium scale group (~6-8) of above average players chased me around for a solid 2-3 minutes but couldn't kill me so they gave up and moved on to the easier targets that were coming towards us from the keep.

I had more than enough mobility with wings alone and next patch will have even more mobility and even ranged offense with vault (and bow) and on top of that and my healing/mitigation would be infinitely more powerful if I were to actually run the meta warden 50k polar 2h setup instead of my fun 30k arctic blast DW build.

You don't need to try and justify your proposed change to ward (burst heal into a HoT) to me, I agree that ward is very strong right now and that your proposed change is a good way to balance ward without deleting it, but what I'm also saying is that broad sweeping claims like the one made above that don't (at the bare minimum) have an explanation, let alone a video, can be made of every class right now (even necro) if there is a significant enough skill gap between the 1 and the X.

Speaking of necro, I've seen videos (and live streams) of necro (on PC NA) going 1vX and 2vX against significantly more players than just 2 or 3, even right up to full zerg groups (12+).

Priyasekarssk

@StaticWave First you play mage sorc against competent players and post the video. Atleast put any recent 1v1 tournament results. I can definitely say you never played mage sorcerer before. Just posting others videos says you simply can’t do.Just bluffing. To the point sorc needs burst heal comparative to other class not tied to pet to even play. When comparing numbers it’s not overpowered.

StaticWave

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

@StaticWave First you play mage sorc against competent players and post the video. Atleast put any recent 1v1 tournament results. I can definitely say you never played mage sorcerer before. Just posting others videos says you simply can’t do.Just bluffing. To the point sorc needs burst heal comparative to other class not tied to pet to even play. When comparing numbers it’s not overpowered.

Magsorc is not hard to play, and I’ve mained Sorc for 5 years.

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

let's not act like it's completely impossible for the other classes to do the same thing

Which other spec gets to be super tanky, a RANGED nuke damage dealer, and highly mobile, all at once, at equal skill? Using 1vX in an argument isn't meaningful because bad opponents can make even Necro look good.

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

let's not act like it's completely impossible for the other classes to do the same thing

Using 1vX in an argument isn't meaningful because bad opponents can make even Necro look good.

Not sure what you are trying to infer here? This was literally what I was pointing out with my comment. The person I was replying to was trying to claim (without evidence) that they saw a sorc tanking 2 players and that was enough "evidence" for ward being overpowered. I was pointing out exactly what you said here, that the same thing can be said/done for any class in the game.

I even specifically used the necro point in my comment:

I've seen videos (and live streams) of necro (on PC NA) going 1vX and 2vX against significantly more players than just 2 or 3, even right up to full zerg groups (12+).

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Not sure what you are trying to infer here?

You used Necro 1vX as an example to say that Sorcs aren't doing anything that other classes cannot.

Which other spec gets to be super tanky, a RANGED nuke damage dealer, and highly mobile, all at once, at equal skill?

Zabagad

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Not sure what you are trying to infer here?

You used Necro 1vX as an example to say that Sorcs aren't doing anything that other classes cannot.

He answered to: "Came across an unkillable sorc last night in grey host. He never ran away. Just “took” the damage from 2 people, hardened ward, with his ice staff right through it. Health barely moving." (fullquote - no other word about your claim)

So where did he say anything regarding: "anything that other classes cannot"?

xylena_lazarow

Zabagad wrote: »

So where did he say anything...

Sorc defenders jumping on semantics to conveniently ignore the point, per usual. Third try...

Which other spec gets to be super tanky, a RANGED nuke damage dealer, and highly mobile, all at once, at equal skill?

Turtle_Bot

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

So where did he say anything...

Sorc defenders jumping on semantics to conveniently ignore the point, per usual. Third try...

Which other spec gets to be super tanky, a RANGED nuke damage dealer, and highly mobile, all at once, at equal skill?

and sorc haters are still jumping on symantics AND resorting to baiting, bashing and deliberate ignorance just to keep crying about sorc in a pathetic attempt to kill the class off completely again, just like they always do, even back when sorc was actually unplayable and they still never get pulled up for it...

Let me clarify my position on ward once and for all for you in simple clear ways.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

You don't need to try and justify your proposed change to ward (burst heal into a HoT) to me, I agree that ward is very strong right now and that your proposed change is a good way to balance ward without deleting it

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I agree that ward should have the burst heal changed to a HoT, but let's not act like it's completely impossible for the other classes to do the same thing with how much healing/mitigation is currently available and especially the massive skill/knowledge gap that still exists in the game.

Snipped the irrelevant parts to make it as clear as possible

Again, I agree that ward should have the burst heal switched to a HoT, but just pointing out that making unsubstantiated claims while not providing any evidence/details/explanation to help show as to why that situation occurred to back up those claims isn't useful.

That's 3, THREE!!!!! times in my past 2 comments alone, where I am agreeing with OP that ward needs an adjustment and that OP's proposed change of making the burst heal in to a HoT (Heal over Time) is a good way to go about this.

Is that clear enough?

xylena_lazarow

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

and sorc haters... Is that clear enough?

Not a Sorc hater, my Sorc is a GO that I mained for 3-4 years.

Apologies for the misread, though I see no value in arguing with each other over proposed solutions if we agree on the problem. Communicating the problem to the devs should be top priority, it's unlikely they'll care about (or even read) player proposed solutions, but enough complaints about a problem and they'll eventually do something.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot A pretty well-known PC EU magsorc posted a 1vX clip. You can see how Ward is tanky below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuB5J9tChk&t=224s

I can guarantee you no class can be tanky and have the same mobility. Dude just casually tanks people for a couple seconds (which all classes can do), and relocate to a different kiting spot in several seconds. That would require other classes to run through the open field.

Posting videos from Ulopi is kinda like saying nothing in the matter of sorcs strenght. He is propably in a top 0,1% of PvP sorc population in terms of skill. He have like 2 or 3 videos of him 1vXing and tanking multiple enemies for a lot of patches before U41. You can also notice that in his videos from U41 he isn't even using ward as main source of healing that he would brainlesly spam, he still treats it mainly as a shield ability. He's just that good. It's like posting 1vX videos from some top necro players and claiming necro is OP. Funnily enough in groups that were trying to kill Ulopi You can also see sorcs that he was able to take down.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Not sure what you are trying to infer here?

You used Necro 1vX as an example to say that Sorcs aren't doing anything that other classes cannot.

Which other spec gets to be super tanky, a RANGED nuke damage dealer, and highly mobile, all at once, at equal skill?

Going by Your logic which other spec have a ramping cost applied to a class ability? Trying to prove the point by picking piece of information out of context to fit the narration makes a pointless argument.

Turtle_Bot

Communicating the problem is definitely necessary, but putting forward good suggestions also helps guide the devs (or at least gives them potential ideas to test) into making changes that will help to reach that sweet spot instead of just making massive changes that completely kill off (or break) a class.

Vibrant shroud is a perfect example of this. We all suggested that sorc needs reliable healing that is not tied to pets or cast times, that encase also needed a rework and that sorc needed to bring something to the table in group content that was more than just atro synergy.
ZOS created the vibrant shroud morph (it is a good ability, just currently overshadowed by ward) and that gave sorcs an instant cast burst heal that works on a more traditional damage build (stacking damage instead of mag) while also having some group utility via vitality and maim and the guaranteed damage on the other morph.

In the end, ZOS will always make the changes (or lack there of) that they will make, but at least by providing suggestions/options, it helps guide them through the nuances of the issues being presented and helps when making changes to fix the given issue being raised to hopefully get less of the massive over-swings that we saw in patches like U35.

Presenting ideas on how to change things also helps to reach a consensus, it's like back in U36, I put forward a huge list of ideas I wanted to see for sorc back then, through debate, providing reasons and evidence, that massive list of ideas was reduced to the few main things that everyone agreed that sorc needed:
- reliable, non-pet/non-cast time burst heal (check - vibrant shroud)
- tidy up of class passives (in progress, with changes to a few passives but some still outstanding)
- update to bad abilities (mostly encase, fury, liquid lightning) (encase updated, others still need addressing, but are at least being looked at now)
- and a few other minor changes, mostly for non-pet sorcs (no-pet sorcs have become a focus for this year, so at least they are being looked at)

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot A pretty well-known PC EU magsorc posted a 1vX clip. You can see how Ward is tanky below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuB5J9tChk&t=224s

I can guarantee you no class can be tanky and have the same mobility. Dude just casually tanks people for a couple seconds (which all classes can do), and relocate to a different kiting spot in several seconds. That would require other classes to run through the open field.

Posting videos from Ulopi is kinda like saying nothing in the matter of sorcs strenght. He is propably in a top 0,1% of PvP sorc population in terms of skill. He have like 2 or 3 videos of him 1vXing and tanking multiple enemies for a lot of patches before U41. You can also notice that in his videos from U41 he isn't even using ward as main source of healing that he would brainlesly spam, he still treats it mainly as a shield ability. He's just that good. It's like posting 1vX videos from some top necro players and claiming necro is OP. Funnily enough in groups that were trying to kill Ulopi You can also see sorcs that he was able to take down.

Last patch he had Vigor. That's why it still looked like he could tank multiple enemies. This patch he doesn't and still tanks multiple enemies. 1 skill is doing the same thing as 2 skills last patch. You get the point I'm trying to make?

Turning the burst heal of Ward into a HoT would've been better for the game because last patch you could actually kill a magsorc. This patch it's incredibly hard. That HoT will save bar space since you won't need to slot Vigor anymore, will still make you tanky, but also allow other players to have a chance of killing your class.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot A pretty well-known PC EU magsorc posted a 1vX clip. You can see how Ward is tanky below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuB5J9tChk&t=224s

I can guarantee you no class can be tanky and have the same mobility. Dude just casually tanks people for a couple seconds (which all classes can do), and relocate to a different kiting spot in several seconds. That would require other classes to run through the open field.

Posting videos from Ulopi is kinda like saying nothing in the matter of sorcs strenght. He is propably in a top 0,1% of PvP sorc population in terms of skill. He have like 2 or 3 videos of him 1vXing and tanking multiple enemies for a lot of patches before U41. You can also notice that in his videos from U41 he isn't even using ward as main source of healing that he would brainlesly spam, he still treats it mainly as a shield ability. He's just that good. It's like posting 1vX videos from some top necro players and claiming necro is OP. Funnily enough in groups that were trying to kill Ulopi You can also see sorcs that he was able to take down.

Last patch he had Vigor. That's why it still looked like he could tank multiple enemies. This patch he doesn't and still tanks multiple enemies. 1 skill is doing the same thing as 2 skills last patch. You get the point I'm trying to make?

Turning the burst heal of Ward into a HoT would've been better for the game because last patch you could actually kill a magsorc. This patch it's incredibly hard. That HoT will save bar space since you won't need to slot Vigor anymore, will still make you tanky, but also allow other players to have a chance of killing your class.

It's not excatly 1 skill that does the job of 2 skills. It's 1 active and 1 passive skill that does the job of 2 active skills. Bound aegis is almost mandatory if vigor is dropped.

The issue with turning burst heal on hardened ward into a HoT without doing anything else to the class is that it would put magsorc into being mediocre once again. It will be almost the same like having vigor+hardened pre U41 and we saw how well that worked for magsorc. That HoT will save bar space that You will have no other choice than to fill it up with bound aegis since without vigor You're loosing minor resolve so at the end of the day You will be like U40 sorc just with bit more max magicka and better uptime on minor protection and somehow I don't think this minor tweak will turn mediocre setup into being remotely usefull so magsorcs will once again start dropping left and right like flies. Problem with last patch is that You weren't just able to kill magsorc. It was one of the easiest setups to take down quickly.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

It's not excatly 1 skill that does the job of 2 skills. It's 1 active and 1 passive skill that does the job of 2 active skills.

So where everyone else has to manage a 2nd active skill, pressing a 2nd button, using a 2nd chunk of resources, using a 2nd GCD... magsorc has to do nothing. This is what "playing the game for you" actually looks like, not proc sets.

JanTanhide

RomanRex wrote: »

Played all weekend. Cyro and BG’s. 100% didn’t see any overturned sorcs.

Between the complaints about necros here and wanting nerfs to other skills in the toolkit (ie, streak), it’s obvious that this is a sour grapes post that just won’t go away.

Only 3-4 people here are repeatedly advocating for the ward change being adjusted. As many are making equally valid of arguments for the opposite. Stop trying to make fetch happen. It’s not going to happen.

I couldn't agree more. And for my two cents this game is NOT just PVP. We PVE'rs like the Hardened Ward change and don't want to lose it. It helps a lot when running high end Veteran PVE content.

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot A pretty well-known PC EU magsorc posted a 1vX clip. You can see how Ward is tanky below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuB5J9tChk&t=224s

I can guarantee you no class can be tanky and have the same mobility. Dude just casually tanks people for a couple seconds (which all classes can do), and relocate to a different kiting spot in several seconds. That would require other classes to run through the open field.

Posting videos from Ulopi is kinda like saying nothing in the matter of sorcs strenght. He is propably in a top 0,1% of PvP sorc population in terms of skill. He have like 2 or 3 videos of him 1vXing and tanking multiple enemies for a lot of patches before U41. You can also notice that in his videos from U41 he isn't even using ward as main source of healing that he would brainlesly spam, he still treats it mainly as a shield ability. He's just that good. It's like posting 1vX videos from some top necro players and claiming necro is OP. Funnily enough in groups that were trying to kill Ulopi You can also see sorcs that he was able to take down.

Last patch he had Vigor. That's why it still looked like he could tank multiple enemies. This patch he doesn't and still tanks multiple enemies. 1 skill is doing the same thing as 2 skills last patch. You get the point I'm trying to make?

Turning the burst heal of Ward into a HoT would've been better for the game because last patch you could actually kill a magsorc. This patch it's incredibly hard. That HoT will save bar space since you won't need to slot Vigor anymore, will still make you tanky, but also allow other players to have a chance of killing your class.

It's not excatly 1 skill that does the job of 2 skills. It's 1 active and 1 passive skill that does the job of 2 active skills. Bound aegis is almost mandatory if vigor is dropped.

The issue with turning burst heal on hardened ward into a HoT without doing anything else to the class is that it would put magsorc into being mediocre once again. It will be almost the same like having vigor+hardened pre U41 and we saw how well that worked for magsorc. That HoT will save bar space that You will have no other choice than to fill it up with bound aegis since without vigor You're loosing minor resolve so at the end of the day You will be like U40 sorc just with bit more max magicka and better uptime on minor protection and somehow I don't think this minor tweak will turn mediocre setup into being remotely usefull so magsorcs will once again start dropping left and right like flies. Problem with last patch is that You weren't just able to kill magsorc. It was one of the easiest setups to take down quickly.

1) The passive just happens to be giga cracked and allows the class to front load all their defense onto 1 skill, thereby saving 1-2 GCD per defensive rotation. For the ppl who don’t know, Bound Aegis does these things when slotted:

- Gives 8% max mag, minor protection, and minor Resolve on both bars
- Gives 2% spell damage and 20% stam recovery on the slotted bar

This allows the Sorc to gain somewhere between 3.5-5.5k max mag depending on how much they already have, and also drop Undo for Dawnbreaker because they no longer need the Minor Protection on Undo.

It’s the same reason why NB can seemingly kill ppl with only 2 skills. Their “burst” ability, Merciless Resolve, does almost as much damage as Crystal Fragment and Curse combined. That’s 1 GCD saved per offensive rotation. On Sorc it’s the opposite. They’re able to front load all that defense into 1 skill and save 1-2 GCDs per rotation, which translate to more offensive uptime.

2) No, putting a HoT on Ward will make the class less tanky. You still have the option to use Vigor + Ward with a HoT to be just as tanky, but you are actually killable.

3) I’d rather have the mediocre magsorcs drop like flies and the actual good magsorcs be hard to kill (which they are), than the current version of sorc where mediocre magsorcs are hard to kill from simply spamming ward at low HP, and actual good magsorcs nigh unkillable. A class that is mobile shouldnt be that tanky. At least with a gank NB I can still kill them when I catch them off stealth. I legit cannot kill a magsorc that spams Ward lol. It’s absurd.

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

A class that is mobile shouldnt be that tanky. At least with a gank NB I can still kill them when I catch them off stealth. I legit cannot kill a magsorc that spams Ward lol. It’s absurd.

All I keep hearing from the mediocre Sorc brigade is like:

"I like being tanky. I have no idea why range and mobility are considered powerful and don't care to learn. Streak? What's that? Who cares. If Wardens can tank in PvP then my Sorc should too. Did I mention that I like being tanky?"

You know, you nailed it when you said something like let's just delete Streak and all the other cool Sorc stuff and make them into Blue DKs. That's what these guys ITT actually want. Blue. Tanky. Only one button to press.

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

A class that is mobile shouldnt be that tanky. At least with a gank NB I can still kill them when I catch them off stealth. I legit cannot kill a magsorc that spams Ward lol. It’s absurd.

All I keep hearing from the mediocre Sorc brigade is like:

"I like being tanky. I have no idea why range and mobility are considered powerful and don't care to learn. Streak? What's that? Who cares. If Wardens can tank in PvP then my Sorc should too. Did I mention that I like being tanky?"

You know, you nailed it when you said something like let's just delete Streak and all the other cool Sorc stuff and make them into Blue DKs. That's what these guys ITT actually want. Blue. Tanky. Only one button to press.

Yes, at least with other classes you know their only defense is being tanky. With Sorc and NB it’s like fighting 2 tanks that can teleport 15m or disappear from existence at will.

If they want to be tanky then we remove Streak from the class, just like how I’ve been advocating for the adjustment of either Cloak or Healthy Offering. Sorc and NB can’t have their cake and eat it too lol.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Turtle_Bot A pretty well-known PC EU magsorc posted a 1vX clip. You can see how Ward is tanky below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuB5J9tChk&t=224s

I can guarantee you no class can be tanky and have the same mobility. Dude just casually tanks people for a couple seconds (which all classes can do), and relocate to a different kiting spot in several seconds. That would require other classes to run through the open field.

Posting videos from Ulopi is kinda like saying nothing in the matter of sorcs strenght. He is propably in a top 0,1% of PvP sorc population in terms of skill. He have like 2 or 3 videos of him 1vXing and tanking multiple enemies for a lot of patches before U41. You can also notice that in his videos from U41 he isn't even using ward as main source of healing that he would brainlesly spam, he still treats it mainly as a shield ability. He's just that good. It's like posting 1vX videos from some top necro players and claiming necro is OP. Funnily enough in groups that were trying to kill Ulopi You can also see sorcs that he was able to take down.

Last patch he had Vigor. That's why it still looked like he could tank multiple enemies. This patch he doesn't and still tanks multiple enemies. 1 skill is doing the same thing as 2 skills last patch. You get the point I'm trying to make?

Turning the burst heal of Ward into a HoT would've been better for the game because last patch you could actually kill a magsorc. This patch it's incredibly hard. That HoT will save bar space since you won't need to slot Vigor anymore, will still make you tanky, but also allow other players to have a chance of killing your class.

It's not excatly 1 skill that does the job of 2 skills. It's 1 active and 1 passive skill that does the job of 2 active skills. Bound aegis is almost mandatory if vigor is dropped.

The issue with turning burst heal on hardened ward into a HoT without doing anything else to the class is that it would put magsorc into being mediocre once again. It will be almost the same like having vigor+hardened pre U41 and we saw how well that worked for magsorc. That HoT will save bar space that You will have no other choice than to fill it up with bound aegis since without vigor You're loosing minor resolve so at the end of the day You will be like U40 sorc just with bit more max magicka and better uptime on minor protection and somehow I don't think this minor tweak will turn mediocre setup into being remotely usefull so magsorcs will once again start dropping left and right like flies. Problem with last patch is that You weren't just able to kill magsorc. It was one of the easiest setups to take down quickly.

1) The passive just happens to be giga cracked and allows the class to front load all their defense onto 1 skill, thereby saving 1-2 GCD per defensive rotation. For the ppl who don’t know, Bound Aegis does these things when slotted:

- Gives 8% max mag, minor protection, and minor Resolve on both bars
- Gives 2% spell damage and 20% stam recovery on the slotted bar

This allows the Sorc to gain somewhere between 3.5-5.5k max mag depending on how much they already have, and also drop Undo for Dawnbreaker because they no longer need the Minor Protection on Undo.

It’s the same reason why NB can seemingly kill ppl with only 2 skills. Their “burst” ability, Merciless Resolve, does almost as much damage as Crystal Fragment and Curse combined. That’s 1 GCD saved per offensive rotation. On Sorc it’s the opposite. They’re able to front load all that defense into 1 skill and save 1-2 GCDs per rotation, which translate to more offensive uptime.

2) No, putting a HoT on Ward will make the class less tanky. You still have the option to use Vigor + Ward with a HoT to be just as tanky, but you are actually killable.

3) I’d rather have the mediocre magsorcs drop like flies and the actual good magsorcs be hard to kill (which they are), than the current version of sorc where mediocre magsorcs are hard to kill from simply spamming ward at low HP, and actual good magsorcs nigh unkillable. A class that is mobile shouldnt be that tanky. At least with a gank NB I can still kill them when I catch them off stealth. I legit cannot kill a magsorc that spams Ward lol. It’s absurd.

1. Like always You are getting carried away. Ability is far from being "giga cracked". If it would be than people would use it before ward changes yet it was rarely finding a spot which is a general issue for magsorc.

20% stam regen bonus is rarely applied by aegis itself since majority of sorcs is using ward and curse anyway.

Percentage max stat bonuses are additive so for 8% max mag bonus to be responsible for 5,5k additional max magicka Your base max magicka without any percentage bonuses would've to be equal to almost 69k which is realistically unachievable for a proper build. If You would achieve values like that than after adding other percenatge bonuses (undaunted passive , mages guild passive, sorc passive and inner light) You would be sitting at 92k max mag. Realistically if Your final max magicka is reaching around 60k, assuming You have percentage increase of max magicka around 30% , bound aegis is responsible for aroiund 3,7k max magicka, top values it can realistically provide on some ulta max mag stacking setups will be around 4k and more usuall value it will provide will be closer to 3k.

Undo is still quite usefull even if You have aegis slotted so it's not like the moment You slot aegis Undo will be removed by default.

Minor resolve was always easy to keep with vigor without much of a hustle.

2. Yes it will make magsorc less tanky. So less tanky it will become mediocre easy kill once again especially considering that shield are now affected by defiles and defiles may become really popular after scribing introduction. Using ward with HoT+vigor will provide nowhere near the amount of survivability that would allow sorc to compete with survivability of other classes.

3. To be honest vast majority of magsorcs is still pretty easily killable. Thing is before U40 even good magsorcs struggled to stay alive while everyone else was just a number one target to take down. Like I said HoT on ward alone provides not enough defense for magsorc to be competitive. Sorc requires general redesign of the class kit. There is a reason up until recent U41 changes magsorc was being recognised as one of the easiest targets to take down and while heal on ward covered this issues, they're still there and the moment ward stops being busted these issues will resurface.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

A class that is mobile shouldnt be that tanky. At least with a gank NB I can still kill them when I catch them off stealth. I legit cannot kill a magsorc that spams Ward lol. It’s absurd.

All I keep hearing from the mediocre Sorc brigade is like:

"I like being tanky. I have no idea why range and mobility are considered powerful and don't care to learn. Streak? What's that? Who cares. If Wardens can tank in PvP then my Sorc should too. Did I mention that I like being tanky?"

You know, you nailed it when you said something like let's just delete Streak and all the other cool Sorc stuff and make them into Blue DKs. That's what these guys ITT actually want. Blue. Tanky. Only one button to press.

I see a lot of magsorcs that just streak through people constantly to CC the masses and all they wind up doing is give targets CC immunity so burst windows can't happen so they probably don't understand the strength of streak and ranged even before the ward buff

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

To be honest vast majority of magsorcs is still pretty easily killable.

Can we please stop trying to base arguments on what bad players do? Like yeah I can run Hundings on my Necro and kill a bad Sorc, clearly Sorc and Necro are both fine and balanced, that Hundings is so op hits like a truck! /s

Actual bad Sorcs aren't even copy pasting 60k max mag meta builds, they're hard casting frags with 27k max mag (then calling you a cheater when you kill them). It's only mid or better Sorcs that are benefitting from Ward. Bad Sorcs still die instantly just like bad NBs. Every mid Sorc is now obnoxiously tanky, and every good Sorc is now a demigod.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

To be honest vast majority of magsorcs is still pretty easily killable.

Can we please stop trying to base arguments on what bad players do? Like yeah I can run Hundings on my Necro and kill a bad Sorc, clearly Sorc and Necro are both fine and balanced, that Hundings is so op hits like a truck! /s

Actual bad Sorcs aren't even copy pasting 60k max mag meta builds, they're hard casting frags with 27k max mag (then calling you a cheater when you kill them). It's only mid or better Sorcs that are benefitting from Ward. Bad Sorcs still die instantly just like bad NBs. Every mid Sorc is now obnoxiously tanky, and every good Sorc is now a demigod.

Who said I was talking purely about bad players or any specific type of setups?

Can we please stop making arguments based purely on assumpptions that fit our agenda?

IncultaWolf

People still here defending hardened ward this far into the patch? It's blatantly overtuned. I even taught a new player how to get into pvp, gave him a magsorc build, and he's going like 20-0 in his battlegrounds at like 400cp. He even admits the shield shouldn't be that strong. It's the only heal he has slotted other than crit surge being passive. And with the blood magic passive being reworked next patch, magsorc is going to be even stronger.

Jsmalls

I've been absent from this thread for a bit, glad with can't to the consensus of a HoT is probably the more balanced option (although you'll see how using it Preemptively is going to make the ability STRONGER than it is currently. Just wait for Ward, Surge, and Blood Magic to be ticking on that 3-6 second window for Ward while a Sorc is DPS parsing ya knowing those HoTs are going.

I personally haven't slotted Vigor ever (I've been using bound aegis since you had to apply it for minor protection).

My issue with debates from @StaticWave and @xylena_lazarow is it's very apparent neither of them played MagSorc competitively in Open World PvP. Maybe you've dabbled in it now but prior to this patch it's clear from your statements that you don't have much experience with their defensive toolkit prior (although @StaticWave seems to be an expert on Vigor and wants it to be a mandatory skill in everyone's bar).

Prior to this update Hardened Ward was a mediocre defense. I've brought up numerous times in how it's the worst scaling defensive mechanic in the game 1vX+. It does not synergize with any class passives (20% Stam recovery I guess for slotting it if you don't have another ability already) and does not have any secondary effects like Major or Minor Buffs or debuffs. It was just a flat value that never went up or down depending on the situation (a lot of healing gets stronger the weaker you are).

And prior to this update stacking Max Magicka was not a very effective setup (the added 10% passive changed this a bit). So in order to get a viable shield (in my opinion 13k+ which is something like 45-50k magicka) you had to invest heavily in the worst scaling offensive stat in the game (numbers are numbers I've given the values in a previous post). This felt (and still does to an extent) awful to force from a creativity and effectiveness of builds standpoint.

So currently yes Ward is Overtuned, but a lot of us Actual MagSorc mains don't want to see it gutted to the point where it's completely inferior again.

xylena_lazarow

Jsmalls wrote: »

So currently yes Ward is Overtuned, but a lot of us Actual MagSorc mains don't want to see it gutted to the point where it's completely inferior again.

Let's not do the "No True Scotsman" thing because I can say Real Sorcs (TM) have never in a decade needed to crutch on burst heals, not magsorcs, not stamsorcs. Learn to use mobility, shields, and hots like a Real Sorc (TM).

Anyway. Fine. Have your burst heal, but not on Ward because ZOS finally gave you a burst heal as strong as Templar BoL in Vibrant Shroud. Removing the stupid heal would not be "gutting" Ward when it's like 18k shield at 60k mag, with useful passives for slotting it. I'm currently running tests involving uninvested Ward on a questionable 33k hp stamsorc DD build, yet I'm repeatedly brick wall stalemating a superior Sorc opponent that really should be beating me.

To be clear, this is uninvested Ward, an 8.7k shield with a 5.0k heal at 20k/33k/29k (11 hp 53 stam DDF maxed). Simply having both of those things in the same gcd gives me insane recovery, especially combined with Vigor and roll cancelling. This opponent is a strong player with years more experience on Sorc than me, while I've barely played Sorc since 22 and haven't played the game at all in a month before today's tests.

I did not deserve to survive 7min vs 4.5k before we called it like that. This player's same Sorc kills my Arc main, which isn't looking like it's gonna stay my main much longer.

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

I've been absent from this thread for a bit, glad with can't to the consensus of a HoT is probably the more balanced option (although you'll see how using it Preemptively is going to make the ability STRONGER than it is currently. Just wait for Ward, Surge, and Blood Magic to be ticking on that 3-6 second window for Ward while a Sorc is DPS parsing ya knowing those HoTs are going.

I personally haven't slotted Vigor ever (I've been using bound aegis since you had to apply it for minor protection).

My issue with debates from @StaticWave and @xylena_lazarow is it's very apparent neither of them played MagSorc competitively in Open World PvP. Maybe you've dabbled in it now but prior to this patch it's clear from your statements that you don't have much experience with their defensive toolkit prior (although @StaticWave seems to be an expert on Vigor and wants it to be a mandatory skill in everyone's bar).

Prior to this update Hardened Ward was a mediocre defense. I've brought up numerous times in how it's the worst scaling defensive mechanic in the game 1vX+. It does not synergize with any class passives (20% Stam recovery I guess for slotting it if you don't have another ability already) and does not have any secondary effects like Major or Minor Buffs or debuffs. It was just a flat value that never went up or down depending on the situation (a lot of healing gets stronger the weaker you are).

And prior to this update stacking Max Magicka was not a very effective setup (the added 10% passive changed this a bit). So in order to get a viable shield (in my opinion 13k+ which is something like 45-50k magicka) you had to invest heavily in the worst scaling offensive stat in the game (numbers are numbers I've given the values in a previous post). This felt (and still does to an extent) awful to force from a creativity and effectiveness of builds standpoint.

So currently yes Ward is Overtuned, but a lot of us Actual MagSorc mains don't want to see it gutted to the point where it's completely inferior again.

@Jsmalls

Here’s a GvG clip from Animosity, a pretty well known and strong guild on PC NA and PC EU, where I participated. Keep in mind, these are the top dogs in the ESO PvP community, and I did a GvG vs them:



See my name? See the shield on my HP bar? Yep, I mained Magsorc and played it competitively in 2018 for 8 months before switching to stamblade for 6 months and then stamsorc, so I do know how it works lol.

I also know that magsorc used to be able to drop as low as 16k HP and stack both Harness + Hardened Ward for a 25k shield because there wasnt any cap to the shield. It was just as hard to kill the sorc back then.

I also know that magSorc actually got nerfed several times over the years due to how strong it was in OW.

Look, magsorc is not hard to play. And if you’re using my assumed lack of magsorc experience as an argument, which I just proved wrong at the beginning of this comment, then I can just as easily switch to magsorc and use Dampen Ward instead, and still perform well. I’ve mastered the ability to kite and play without a burst heal, so it’s no big deal for me.

Jsmalls

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So currently yes Ward is Overtuned, but a lot of us Actual MagSorc mains don't want to see it gutted to the point where it's completely inferior again.

Let's not do the "No True Scotsman" thing because I can say Real Sorcs (TM) have never in a decade needed to crutch on burst heals, not magsorcs, not stamsorcs. Learn to use mobility, shields, and hots like a Real Sorc (TM).

Anyway. Fine. Have your burst heal, but not on Ward because ZOS finally gave you a burst heal as strong as Templar BoL in Vibrant Shroud. Removing the stupid heal would not be "gutting" Ward when it's like 18k shield at 60k mag, with useful passives for slotting it. I'm currently running tests involving uninvested Ward on a questionable 33k hp stamsorc DD build, yet I'm repeatedly brick wall stalemating a superior Sorc opponent that really should be beating me.

To be clear, this is uninvested Ward, an 8.7k shield with a 5.0k heal at 20k/33k/29k (11 hp 53 stam DDF maxed). Simply having both of those things in the same gcd gives me insane recovery, especially combined with Vigor and roll cancelling. This opponent is a strong player with years more experience on Sorc than me, while I've barely played Sorc since 22 and haven't played the game at all in a month before today's tests.

I did not deserve to survive 7min vs 4.5k before we called it like that. This player's same Sorc kills my Arc main, which isn't looking like it's gonna stay my main much longer.

@xylena_lazarow
Spoken like a true Non Mag Sorc, 18k at 60k? Maybe with major and minor vitality from a friend lmao.

So you put on a bunch of healing buffs, are hitting vigor, and dodge rolling against another Sorc and surprised you survived? A lot of Sorcs are built around the Bursty damage they give (curse and frag). If you have enough health to survive that burst threshold surviving a Sorc generally isn't hard. Because curse and frag are both situational the pressure outside of those abilities is nothing crazy (unless they are using OL). Thats why like the nightblade Incap bow combo in a duel Sorcs "burst" is easily avoidable because it's predictable. Stalemating ranged Sorcs for an experienced player is not difficult.

@StaticWave

I'm trying to remember the state of Sorcerers in 2018, if I'm not mistaken that's quite a bit after the change to Dampen/harness that made them absorb all damage types instead of just magic based. And a little after they removed the stun on frags. Sorcs were STRONG at this point in time. Pretty sure I was rocking some crazy stat setup with Armor of the trainee before it got nerfed. Used Hardened and Harness for infinite 1vX sustain, shield ultimate to tank ridiculous amounts of damage.

But I was on Xbox at this time. But this is before the damage shield changes (end of 2018 Murkmire) where damage shields completely changed from their own entities to work more like health. This was definitely the start of the Mag Sorc decline because now damage shields were still forced to scale on Magicka but did not have the block mitigation and power potential of spell damage setups compared to heals.

After 2018 was a great time to drop Mag Sorc... Damage Shields and stat stacking was nerfed again with changes to %s of max stats in exchange for flat values and then the % health cap on shields as well. It just got worse and worse.

So sure you may have played Mag Sorc when they were Top Dog back in the day but it wasn't until a series of buffs the last 4-5 patches that they have returned. Hence not wanting them to be driven into the ground again.

StaticWave wrote: »

I also know that magSorc actually got nerfed several times over the years due to how strong it was in OW.

Look, magsorc is not hard to play. And if you’re using my assumed lack of magsorc experience as an argument, which I just proved wrong at the beginning of this comment, then I can just as easily switch to magsorc and use Dampen Ward instead, and still perform well. I’ve mastered the ability to kite and play without a burst heal, so it’s no big deal for me.

Up until the most recent patches (2-3 making changes to Bound Aegis, dark conversion etc) MagSorc was literally the highest skill gap class there was (probably have some of my own bias in there). The difference between the skill floor and the ceiling was mind blowing. And prior to these changes there was no reason to play a MagSorc.

So to say you didn't play MagSorc during their "hardships" of the past 6 years lines up exactly with my statement of you guys just aren't Mag Sorc mains....

StaticWave

Jsmalls wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

So currently yes Ward is Overtuned, but a lot of us Actual MagSorc mains don't want to see it gutted to the point where it's completely inferior again.

Let's not do the "No True Scotsman" thing because I can say Real Sorcs (TM) have never in a decade needed to crutch on burst heals, not magsorcs, not stamsorcs. Learn to use mobility, shields, and hots like a Real Sorc (TM).

Anyway. Fine. Have your burst heal, but not on Ward because ZOS finally gave you a burst heal as strong as Templar BoL in Vibrant Shroud. Removing the stupid heal would not be "gutting" Ward when it's like 18k shield at 60k mag, with useful passives for slotting it. I'm currently running tests involving uninvested Ward on a questionable 33k hp stamsorc DD build, yet I'm repeatedly brick wall stalemating a superior Sorc opponent that really should be beating me.

To be clear, this is uninvested Ward, an 8.7k shield with a 5.0k heal at 20k/33k/29k (11 hp 53 stam DDF maxed). Simply having both of those things in the same gcd gives me insane recovery, especially combined with Vigor and roll cancelling. This opponent is a strong player with years more experience on Sorc than me, while I've barely played Sorc since 22 and haven't played the game at all in a month before today's tests.

I did not deserve to survive 7min vs 4.5k before we called it like that. This player's same Sorc kills my Arc main, which isn't looking like it's gonna stay my main much longer.

@xylena_lazarow
Spoken like a true Non Mag Sorc, 18k at 60k? Maybe with major and minor vitality from a friend lmao.

So you put on a bunch of healing buffs, are hitting vigor, and dodge rolling against another Sorc and surprised you survived? A lot of Sorcs are built around the Bursty damage they give (curse and frag). If you have enough health to survive that burst threshold surviving a Sorc generally isn't hard. Because curse and frag are both situational the pressure outside of those abilities is nothing crazy (unless they are using OL). Thats why like the nightblade Incap bow combo in a duel Sorcs "burst" is easily avoidable because it's predictable. Stalemating ranged Sorcs for an experienced player is not difficult.

@StaticWave

I'm trying to remember the state of Sorcerers in 2018, if I'm not mistaken that's quite a bit after the change to Dampen/harness that made them absorb all damage types instead of just magic based. And a little after they removed the stun on frags. Sorcs were STRONG at this point in time. Pretty sure I was rocking some crazy stat setup with Armor of the trainee before it got nerfed. Used Hardened and Harness for infinite 1vX sustain, shield ultimate to tank ridiculous amounts of damage.

But I was on Xbox at this time. But this is before the damage shield changes (end of 2018 Murkmire) where damage shields completely changed from their own entities to work more like health. This was definitely the start of the Mag Sorc decline because now damage shields were still forced to scale on Magicka but did not have the block mitigation and power potential of spell damage setups compared to heals.

After 2018 was a great time to drop Mag Sorc... Damage Shields and stat stacking was nerfed again with changes to %s of max stats in exchange for flat values and then the % health cap on shields as well. It just got worse and worse.

So sure you may have played Mag Sorc when they were Top Dog back in the day but it wasn't until a series of buffs the last 4-5 patches that they have returned. Hence not wanting them to be driven into the ground again.

StaticWave wrote: »

I also know that magSorc actually got nerfed several times over the years due to how strong it was in OW.

Look, magsorc is not hard to play. And if you’re using my assumed lack of magsorc experience as an argument, which I just proved wrong at the beginning of this comment, then I can just as easily switch to magsorc and use Dampen Ward instead, and still perform well. I’ve mastered the ability to kite and play without a burst heal, so it’s no big deal for me.

Up until the most recent patches (2-3 making changes to Bound Aegis, dark conversion etc) MagSorc was literally the highest skill gap class there was (probably have some of my own bias in there). The difference between the skill floor and the ceiling was mind blowing. And prior to these changes there was no reason to play a MagSorc.

So to say you didn't play MagSorc during their "hardships" of the past 6 years lines up exactly with my statement of you guys just aren't Mag Sorc mains....

@Jsmalls

You didn’t specify how recent. You just said I never played magsorc competitively, which is false. I did play magsorc back then and quit because I wanted to try other things. Ended up with stamsorc because it fits my playstyle.

The same thing could be said about stamsorc too. As a 5 yr stamsorc main, I stuck with the class thru its worst patches, but it doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t know how to play it lol. It just means they’d rather play something else more enjoyable. I can’t say they don’t know stamsorc if they spent 6-7 months on the class and hop off when it gets nerfed. That’s a reasonable amount of time spent to make them fairly efficient on the class. I can definitely say they aren’t true stamsorc mains though.

So that’s what you could call me lol. I’m definitely not a magsorc main, but I’ve played it competitively enough to know the class.