Why is there still no ramping cost on Shadowy Disguise?

RealLoveBVB · March 20

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

The bottom line is the status quo of cloak hasn't changed, likely won't, and nor should it despite opinions to the contrary.
The fact that there are 3 direct skill counters 1 consumable counter and several indirect skill counters is more than enough. Accept that sometimes you get outplayed and it's okay to lose. My Mo whether I'm on my NB or not is to counter-gank other NBs. I have detect pots on every toon and they work flawlessly provided the NB doesn't outplay me and usually ends in a satisfying kill or I overextend and get what's coming.

NB's are not supposed to be able to cloak immediately after being revealed by these skills, but they absolutely can and almost always do.

If you experience that, you should file a bug report. Can't confirm this tho, because I always have the white ball surrounding me for several seconds, that prevents to go invi again.

sharquez · March 20

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

sharquez wrote: »

The bottom line is the status quo of cloak hasn't changed, likely won't, and nor should it despite opinions to the contrary.
The fact that there are 3 direct skill counters 1 consumable counter and several indirect skill counters is more than enough. Accept that sometimes you get outplayed and it's okay to lose. My Mo whether I'm on my NB or not is to counter-gank other NBs. I have detect pots on every toon and they work flawlessly provided the NB doesn't outplay me and usually ends in a satisfying kill or I overextend and get what's coming.

The fact is that the counters to cloak are unreliable with exception of detect pots. Camo hunter and flares don't work as the skill descriptions say they do with any kind of consistency. NB's are not supposed to be able to cloak immediately after being revealed by these skills, but they absolutely can and almost always do.

As it is now people have to build to be able to counter NB's, which makes them weaker at all the other things they need to do to be competitive in PvP. NB's are just extremely OP right now, even without cloak. That's why there should be a ramping cost for cloak.

If you are experiencing this the reveal likely is being purged by a CP skill as their health gets low due to being exposed.

Durham · March 20

Detect pots are the only effective counter... The class has major and minor expeditions with most running swift.

Amottica · March 20

sharquez wrote: »

The bottom line is the status quo of cloak hasn't changed, likely won't, and nor should it despite opinions to the contrary.
The fact that there are 3 direct skill counters 1 consumable counter and several indirect skill counters is more than enough. Accept that sometimes you get outplayed and it's okay to lose. My Mo whether I'm on my NB or not is to counter-gank other NBs. I have detect pots on every toon and they work flawlessly provided the NB doesn't outplay me and usually ends in a satisfying kill or I overextend and get what's coming.

Thanks for your post.

When I am not running with my guild I like to hunt the gankers and have not had an issue pulling them out of stealth. Yes, I do get outplayed and a skilled NB will have more than one trick up their sleeve just as any experienced player can counter situations via more than one means.

When running with my guild we each have skills and we are told to run so we are prepared. At least one person is responsible for stealth detection. We choose to be prepared.

HowlKimchi · March 21

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)

That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.

Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:

NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro

Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)

What the hell, what platform are you on out of curiosity?

Sorc > Arc > NB > Warden > DK > Plar > Cro

Personally I think it's more like:

Mag Sorc = NB > DK = Arc > Stam Sorc >>> Warden > Plar >>> Cro

That said, despite the placement of NBs, you will run into a lot of unskilled NBs. The assassin archetype has always been popular and will attract players of different skill levels. There are probably 2 types of NBs: (1) those who can handle being revealed in cloak or dont even run cloak in the first place and (2) those who rely on cloak and with fold like a wet paper towel once they are revealed.

Regarding the detect pots discussion that no other class requires me to use pots to counter them (which is untrue because of all the things that pull NBs out of cloak), look at it another way... No other playstyle is fully countered by just using a potion.

Personally, I think cloak is fine. Both as someone who plays NBs and have faced off against NBs on other classes. I don't think cloak is the reason why NBs are top tier. The reason they are top tier is because of healthy offering, slottable major prophecy on any bar, major resolve being passively gained with their main spammable, and now, their own dark deal. Also, not having to cast relentless focus, and the stacks persisting out of combat. Basically, they're really convenient to run now and don't run into bar space problems.

Imo reason why nightblade is top tier is a combination of bar space being really handy right now plus all the tools in the world to be evasive as hell and STILL be tanky enough to tank and spank enemies.

Is this not what I said? I'm kinda confused if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me.

In any case, with my 2 main classes having very well rounded kits now (nb and magsorcs), I'm enjoying theorycrafting and testing out unusual builds because their kit can cover weaknesses. Ranged dot sorcs with master's inferno staff is pretty fun.

xDeusEJRx · March 21

HowlKimchi wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

HowlKimchi wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)

That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.

Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:

NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro

Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)

What the hell, what platform are you on out of curiosity?

Sorc > Arc > NB > Warden > DK > Plar > Cro

Personally I think it's more like:

Mag Sorc = NB > DK = Arc > Stam Sorc >>> Warden > Plar >>> Cro

That said, despite the placement of NBs, you will run into a lot of unskilled NBs. The assassin archetype has always been popular and will attract players of different skill levels. There are probably 2 types of NBs: (1) those who can handle being revealed in cloak or dont even run cloak in the first place and (2) those who rely on cloak and with fold like a wet paper towel once they are revealed.

Regarding the detect pots discussion that no other class requires me to use pots to counter them (which is untrue because of all the things that pull NBs out of cloak), look at it another way... No other playstyle is fully countered by just using a potion.

Personally, I think cloak is fine. Both as someone who plays NBs and have faced off against NBs on other classes. I don't think cloak is the reason why NBs are top tier. The reason they are top tier is because of healthy offering, slottable major prophecy on any bar, major resolve being passively gained with their main spammable, and now, their own dark deal. Also, not having to cast relentless focus, and the stacks persisting out of combat. Basically, they're really convenient to run now and don't run into bar space problems.

Imo reason why nightblade is top tier is a combination of bar space being really handy right now plus all the tools in the world to be evasive as hell and STILL be tanky enough to tank and spank enemies.

Is this not what I said? I'm kinda confused if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me.

In any case, with my 2 main classes having very well rounded kits now (nb and magsorcs), I'm enjoying theorycrafting and testing out unusual builds because their kit can cover weaknesses. Ranged dot sorcs with master's inferno staff is pretty fun.

I am agreeing with you but I was more so expanding on what you said because there's a lot more that they have than what you listed. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if it was just those few things. Nightblade's rise is more of a death by a thousand cuts

reazea · March 21

The people who are trying to claim the skill counters to cloak are reliable don't play PvP or they play NB's. The only thing that works to reveal an NB now days is a detect pot. Claiming otherwise is simply not factually accurate. Plus, the unreliable skills that are supposed to reveal NB's require building toons specifically to counter NB's at the cost of build strength and identity.

Cloak should have a ramping cost, as many of us who ESO specifically for the PvP have been saying for years.

Amottica · March 22

reazea wrote: »

Cloak should have a ramping cost, as many of us who ESO specifically for the PvP have been saying for years.

and many have disagreed for years

Rowjoh · March 22

You need to look at so many aspects of the Templar/DK/Warden 35k+ health meta that are also mobile, hard hitting and have infinite sustain, before even thinking about anything to do with Nightblades.

pokrakus · March 22

NB is not OP.
The cloak should have an increasing cost = no NB in game.
Those who use the cloak are fragile most of the time and melt quickly under pressure.
Ask a good player if he is afraid of NB. DK will laugh at you, the Warden will smile, and the Templars will simply cleanse you.
Most NBs is not able to wear you down to zero with opening (if you're aware it's a pvp zone), and if not, each class has its own burst heal that restores it to full health in a short time.
There are many ways to conter the cloak.
I understand that a lot of people get frustrated when they suddenly get ganked, being attacked half HP and get a 2 hit kill, etc., but try playing NB, go to IC and see how many people counter ur cloak. NB is not easy to play. And its success depends on the situation and choosing the right target.
See how strong a magsorc, DK, Warden or Arcanist is now and can jump into the fight and stand on its ground. NB can only watch from the shadows with envy

reazea · March 22

Amottica wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Cloak should have a ramping cost, as many of us who ESO specifically for the PvP have been saying for years.

and many have disagreed for years

I was clear that a ramping cost for cloak is warranted in the opinions of those who PvP regularly in ESO, with exception of those who main NB and crutch on cloak. The opinions of those who don't PvP in ESO are not informed opinions.

Major_Toughness · March 23

reazea wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Cloak should have a ramping cost, as many of us who ESO specifically for the PvP have been saying for years.

and many have disagreed for years

I was clear that a ramping cost for cloak is warranted in the opinions of those who PvP regularly in ESO, with exception of those who main NB and crutch on cloak. The opinions of those who don't PvP in ESO are not informed opinions.

May as well put a ramping cost on block and burst heals too so every class gets their defenses gutted.

Urzigurumash · March 23

pokrakus wrote: »

NB is not OP.
The cloak should have an increasing cost = no NB in game.
Those who use the cloak are fragile most of the time and melt quickly under pressure.
Ask a good player if he is afraid of NB. DK will laugh at you, the Warden will smile, and the Templars will simply cleanse you.
Most NBs is not able to wear you down to zero with opening (if you're aware it's a pvp zone), and if not, each class has its own burst heal that restores it to full health in a short time.
There are many ways to conter the cloak.
I understand that a lot of people get frustrated when they suddenly get ganked, being attacked half HP and get a 2 hit kill, etc., but try playing NB, go to IC and see how many people counter ur cloak. NB is not easy to play. And its success depends on the situation and choosing the right target.
See how strong a magsorc, DK, Warden or Arcanist is now and can jump into the fight and stand on its ground. NB can only watch from the shadows with envy

You're not wrong, I think DK and Warden are on NB's level, or at least so close that changing the decades old paradigm about Cloak's cost is a questionable idea.

What isn't questionable is that Necro needs big help, and Plar needs a little.

In fact if what is said here about Sorc and Arcanist are true (I'm on Xbox where change is slow), I'd say we're approaching the best class balance since.... early 2021? Or maybe even.. since Elsweyr?

If it was arrived at only by making everyone OP (and a Vampire), so be it.

GooGa592 · March 23

Major_Toughness wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Cloak should have a ramping cost, as many of us who ESO specifically for the PvP have been saying for years.

and many have disagreed for years

I was clear that a ramping cost for cloak is warranted in the opinions of those who PvP regularly in ESO, with exception of those who main NB and crutch on cloak. The opinions of those who don't PvP in ESO are not informed opinions.

May as well put a ramping cost on block and burst heals too so every class gets their defenses gutted.

NB already has the strongest burst heal in the game, and cloak is used primarily in offensive situations for ganking, not for defense. A player who initiates a fight should not be able to turn invisible and run away. That's just bad game design.

Major_Toughness · March 23

GooGa592 wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Cloak should have a ramping cost, as many of us who ESO specifically for the PvP have been saying for years.

and many have disagreed for years

I was clear that a ramping cost for cloak is warranted in the opinions of those who PvP regularly in ESO, with exception of those who main NB and crutch on cloak. The opinions of those who don't PvP in ESO are not informed opinions.

May as well put a ramping cost on block and burst heals too so every class gets their defenses gutted.

NB already has the strongest burst heal in the game, and cloak is used primarily in offensive situations for ganking, not for defense. A player who initiates a fight should not be able to turn invisible and run away. That's just bad game design.

High HP Polar Wind (Warden) heals for more, Coag (DK) heals for more, Honor The Dead (Templar) has the exact same scaling as Healthy Offering, and in terms of effective healing - shields and heals - Impervious Runeward (Arcanist) and Hardened Ward (Sorc) on High HP builds are also stronger than Healthy Offering. So no.

You also contradict yourself by saying NB is used primarily in offensive situations, so surely the defensive capabilities of Shadowy Disguise is not an issue? As it is being used offensively not defensively.

xylena_lazarow · March 24

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Honor The Dead (Templar) has the exact same scaling as Healthy Offering

Why the hell does the archetypal stealth rogue class heal the same as the archetypal staunch cleric class? RIP class identity. Might as well give cloak and spectral bow to templars if we're gonna allow everyone to do everything.

The only thing really broken about NB is Healthy Offering, which is what enables them to indefinitely both engage and reset fights, while also holding their ground with layered hots under burst heals like a templar would.

NyassaV · March 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Honor The Dead (Templar) has the exact same scaling as Healthy Offering

Why the hell does the archetypal stealth rogue class heal the same as the archetypal staunch cleric class? RIP class identity. Might as well give cloak and spectral bow to templars if we're gonna allow everyone to do everything.

The only thing really broken about NB is Healthy Offering, which is what enables them to indefinitely both engage and reset fights, while also holding their ground with layered hots under burst heals like a templar would.

Cuz they took away healing ward so they could sell the new Blackrose Prison Resto staff.

Urzigurumash · March 24

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Honor The Dead (Templar) has the exact same scaling as Healthy Offering

Why the hell does the archetypal stealth rogue class heal the same as the archetypal staunch cleric class? RIP class identity. Might as well give cloak and spectral bow to templars if we're gonna allow everyone to do everything.

The only thing really broken about NB is Healthy Offering, which is what enables them to indefinitely both engage and reset fights, while also holding their ground with layered hots under burst heals like a templar would.

More or less yes every class should have a skill which hits as hard as Spectral Bow, every class should have a burst heal on par with Honor the Dead.

And they nearly do, this transformation to a paradigm where "every class can equally fulfill Warrior / Mage / Thief" is nearly complete.

It was hard to swallow seeing ye olde StamDK "The Tank Class" becoming the leading DD, running around at max speed tearing through the opposition with its.. Ice Staff and Flame damage?

But the transformation isn't quite complete.. and NB still has a higher APM requirement to keep Major Resolve up than any other class right? So by that alone it's inherently the least efficient tank class?

Similarly - DK is still the ONLY class without a unique bonus to Crit Chance or Damage - inherently the least efficient DD maybe? (Its recent DD domination being an exploitation of the sudden inefficiency of non-Vampirism)

Urzigurumash · March 24

It's probably important for us to keep in mind this change to all classes being equal Warrior / Mage / Thief was probably not so much about PvP. Lots and lots of players wanted to be able to Tank or DD in PvE on a certain class and honestly it was a reasonable expectation of theirs being a TES game.

It dislodged some of our traditions in PvP I guess you could say, but I no longer admonish low ranking DKs with a bow in their hand.

Most classes do still have a pretty clear BIS setup and most have a decent Mag Stam dichotomy, but now it's more like there's a BIS Brawler or Gank spec for any class versus a BIS Brawler or Gank class.

May well be that NB has the least Mag Stam dichotomy however.. surely Warden has the most? Edit: no probably Sorc. And DK less than NB probably.

Major_Toughness · March 25

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Honor The Dead (Templar) has the exact same scaling as Healthy Offering

Why the hell does the archetypal stealth rogue class heal the same as the archetypal staunch cleric class? RIP class identity. Might as well give cloak and spectral bow to templars if we're gonna allow everyone to do everything.

The only thing really broken about NB is Healthy Offering, which is what enables them to indefinitely both engage and reset fights, while also holding their ground with layered hots under burst heals like a templar would.

NB doesn't heal the same as Templar, that is just one skill not the entire class.

Templar also has the strongest execute in the game despite being what was originally the "healer" class. What are your thoughts on that?

SaffronCitrusflower · March 25

Major_Toughness wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Honor The Dead (Templar) has the exact same scaling as Healthy Offering

Why the hell does the archetypal stealth rogue class heal the same as the archetypal staunch cleric class? RIP class identity. Might as well give cloak and spectral bow to templars if we're gonna allow everyone to do everything.

The only thing really broken about NB is Healthy Offering, which is what enables them to indefinitely both engage and reset fights, while also holding their ground with layered hots under burst heals like a templar would.

NB doesn't heal the same as Templar, that is just one skill not the entire class.

Templar also has the strongest execute in the game despite being what was originally the "healer" class. What are your thoughts on that?

Templar doesn't have the strongest execute in the game. Arcanist beam is stronger, just for one example that compares beam to beam. I don't think anything you've posted regarding any class is accurate. NB's are not victims. They are S-tier right now and the most grossly OP class in the game, with the strongest burst heal and the strongest burst damage at the same time, plus cloak. That's why so many people are switching to NB in PvP over the last few months.

Major_Toughness · March 25

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Honor The Dead (Templar) has the exact same scaling as Healthy Offering

Why the hell does the archetypal stealth rogue class heal the same as the archetypal staunch cleric class? RIP class identity. Might as well give cloak and spectral bow to templars if we're gonna allow everyone to do everything.

The only thing really broken about NB is Healthy Offering, which is what enables them to indefinitely both engage and reset fights, while also holding their ground with layered hots under burst heals like a templar would.

NB doesn't heal the same as Templar, that is just one skill not the entire class.

Templar also has the strongest execute in the game despite being what was originally the "healer" class. What are your thoughts on that?

Templar doesn't have the strongest execute in the game. Arcanist beam is stronger, just for one example that compares beam to beam. I don't think anything you've posted regarding any class is accurate. NB's are not victims. They are S-tier right now and the most grossly OP class in the game, with the strongest burst heal and the strongest burst damage at the same time, plus cloak. That's why so many people are switching to NB in PvP over the last few months.

You just said Arcanist beam is a better execute than Templars, and the rest of your comment is just as deluded.

I like more people switching to NB, they're super easy to kill compared to Arcanists and Magsorcs.

olsborg · March 25

I would be all for it. But the fact of the matter is...and im not rly exaggerating here. 6 out of 10 cloaks are broken, either by legit means or by bugs. So no.

biminirwb17_ESO · March 25

There are 2 stealth modes - hidden and invisible.

It seems many people are unaware of the difference - mudcrabs and npcs break hidden, ele sus breaks invisible for ever.

CrazyKitty · March 25

biminirwb17_ESO wrote: »

There are 2 stealth modes - hidden and invisible.

It seems many people are unaware of the difference - mudcrabs and npcs break hidden, ele sus breaks invisible for ever.

Elemental succeptability does break stealth, until the NB uses the skill again, then they turn invisible again. Sure, after a few seconds it pops them out of stealth again, but then they just push the cloak button again and disappear again.

Cloak, in combination with having the widest ranging most robust tool kit in the game makes NB the strongest class in PvP hands down. A ramping cost for cloak is totally reasonable and would bring some much needed balance to the class.

JerBearESO · March 25

Cloak is OP, but reveal is OP. Remove reveal from game, give cloak CD. Best solution for control of cloak power developer side.

Duh

GooGa592 · March 25

I hope to never again see a game that designs in a way for a player to turn invisible during PvP combat.

Galeriano2 · March 28

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

Major_Toughness · March 28

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Galeriano2 · March 28

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

You don't get a stun on mist form yet it still has a ramping cost. And the other closest thing to cloak which is vampire unnatural movement passive requires You to be vamp stage 4 and to sprint for 3 seconds. Quite a big leap between universal streak alternative and universal cloak alternative if You ask me.

Also You always get something for casting cloak. You always get guaranteed critical strike for 3 seconds after casting it and Major Resolve from Shadow Barrier passive. You even get major savagery/prophecy on both bars just for having cloak slotted. You can on the other hand get nothing for casting streak.

What?

Casting streak will always teleport you.
If anyone is in the cone they will always take damage.
If anyone is in the cone and not CC immune they will get stunned.

Where in there is nothing?

Nope, casting streak will not always teleport You. Uneven terrain is real issue for that ability. Like if You want to teleport upwards often You will be moved like 2 meters forward or not at all and if You want to be teleported downwards You will end up in the air and You will provide enemies with 1 second of free beating until You land, perform a forced dodge animation and be able to use some ability. Immobilizes are the other issue. You can teleport but not in the desired direction which becomes problematic in tight space or if there are obstacles around and may cause You to basically teleport into an obstacle 1 meetr away which is like not teleporting at all

Being in a cone is a real tricky thing lately. Someone can be in the cone on Your screen but game will still decide that he wasn't. It happens regularly. As for CC immunity it's like saying that if someone is invisible and enemy don't have detection pot active than he is invisible.

So in worst case scenario You can use that ability and get literally nothing, which never happens in terms of cloak.