Why is there still no ramping cost on Shadowy Disguise?

hesobad · March 11

I know NBs are the ones favored by ZOS but its very ridiculous that just about everything has a ramping cost except for Shadowy Disguise. Streak: ramping cost, roll dodge ramping cost but something that makes you go completely invisible and guarantees a crit.... no ramping cost! Like this game just blows my mind, why are they even paying people to balance this game?

AndreNoir · March 12

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

RealLoveBVB · March 12

They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.

SpacemanSpiff1 · March 12

cloak is easy to counter. its wild how many people refuse to use a reveal of any kind.

baselesschart · March 12

Cloak doesn't even reliably work lol

Oblivion_Protocol · March 12

Half the dots in this game pull MBs out of stealth easily and repeatedly. Cloak really isn’t that hard to counter at all.

NyassaV · March 12

Cuz random things as well as well used tools can break it all the time. If it is ever made so cloak guarantees you will not be hit for at least 2 seconds of the 3 second duration then they can give it a ramping cost.

Sleep724 · March 12

So slot a potion or use up a costly skill slot to counter ONE ability on ONE class?? Yea, that’s balanced.

RealLoveBVB · March 13

Sleep724 wrote: »

So slot a potion or use up a costly skill slot to counter ONE ability on ONE class?? Yea, that’s balanced.

Mage light and camo hunter are part of many builds in pvp to get the crit bonus + 5% more magicka/weapon damage when slotted. So using this won't hurt you much.

There are also many vamp 4, sneakers or players using invi pots. It's not just about cloak.

Major_Toughness · March 13

Sleep724 wrote: »

So slot a potion or use up a costly skill slot to counter ONE ability on ONE class?? Yea, that’s balanced.

That's everyone's response to streak too. It's not an issue because you can gap close. But a vast majority of builds don't run gap closers.

Only one that's a problem for me is Stampede, or another Sorc. The Ambush and Toppling Charge have a weird cast time which makes getting away with Streak a lot easier.

SpacemanSpiff1 · March 13

Sleep724 wrote: »

So slot a potion or use up a costly skill slot to counter ONE ability on ONE class?? Yea, that’s balanced.

it also helps against anyone hidden.

people forget any class can crouch.

SaffronCitrusflower · March 13

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Half the dots in this game pull MBs out of stealth easily and repeatedly. Cloak really isn’t that hard to counter at all.

If only this were true.

The only thing that works reliably to reveal cloakblades is a detect pot.

There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloak.

Kordai · March 13

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Sleep724 wrote: »

So slot a potion or use up a costly skill slot to counter ONE ability on ONE class?? Yea, that’s balanced.

Mage light and camo hunter are part of many builds in pvp to get the crit bonus + 5% more magicka/weapon damage when slotted. So using this won't hurt you much.

There are also many vamp 4, sneakers or players using invi pots. It's not just about cloak.

Well in all fairness this isn't the case anymore with nb having major crit buffs for free along with dks using FoO.

Crow_IX · March 14

[snip] the only reason you think theyre a problem is because you have a zerg build and die to easy if youre caught solo. when out in the wild and youre solo its actually very easy to survive a couple snipes which allows you to hunt or heal through and keep going. when it comes to a 1v1 or small 1vX nightblade is so bad that most players picked up other classes to play. the game is so bad now and terribly balanced because people who dont know how to pvp complain about pvp. game had been done ever since cast times were added.

[edited for baiting]

HowlKimchi · March 15

Actually, most nightblades who rely on cloak suck at pvp. It's hilarious when you use a detect pot and they have no idea what to do. The laughs are worth the gold cost of the detect pot just do it.

AndreNoir · March 17

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloak.

Sad for u ramping cost applies only on abilities that can be controlled only by user itself. You can come back when potion that bans teleports/shields in a 40 m radius will be introduced, ofc with a range of skills that will do the same

RetPing · March 17

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.

If you can counter NBs with that limited duration pot mean you are fighting NBs that dont how to play.

A class that has invisibility and minor expedition for just slotting their spammable.

Trinotops · March 17

There should be a ramping cost if they get taken out of it early from damage. Super annoying when I take a NB out of cloak 3 times in a row only to get stunned by someone else and the NB gets away.

AndreNoir · March 17

RetPing wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.

If you can counter NBs with that limited duration pot mean you are fighting NBs that dont how to play.

A class that has invisibility and minor expedition for just slotting their spammable.

If you can't decide what to do with enemy NB near you during potion effect... it's yours skill issue and it's you who don't know how to play.

RetPing · March 17

AndreNoir wrote: »

RetPing wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.

If you can counter NBs with that limited duration pot mean you are fighting NBs that dont how to play.

A class that has invisibility and minor expedition for just slotting their spammable.

If you can't decide what to do with enemy NB near you during potion effect... it's yours skill issue and it's you who don't know how to play.

Tell me then.
How do you kill someoene that tp away at rhe first sign of trouble and then just need to keep away for some seconds with major and minor exp to go invis again?

Or you are speaking of those bad NB that come during event and dont have a clue?

Amottica · March 17

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

and because there are counters in the game that block it's use. Soft counters and the purposely designed hard counters. They are very effective.

GooGa592 · March 17

Amottica wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

and because there are counters in the game that block it's use. Soft counters and the purposely designed hard counters. They are very effective.

Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.

xylena_lazarow · March 17

Obtaining high uptime on detection has a prohibitively high opportunity cost, which is what makes it obnoxious to deal with NBs in small engagements. You either weaken yourself, or the NB is free to cloak the majority of the fight. The 15 seconds of detection I run with pots is enough to kill most cloaking NBs I encounter, but I sacrifice the mag burst and major mag regen buff I'd be getting if I popped a tripot, which often does impact what happens after that NB is dead.

In large engagements with many players running detection and spamming direct AoE, life becomes much harder for the cloaking NB, so I assume this is a big reason why they haven't added a ramping cost.

Properly using cloak (for both offense and defense) requires skill. Countering cloak (without a zerg) requires skill. But the feast-or-famine nature of the skill often makes for poor PvP where the NB is either seemingly unkillable or instantly dead, which is why you get so many players on both sides of this debate so passionate about it.

Stapling a double-bar major crit chance buff to an already powerful skill though? While 3 other classes don't even get this buff in their kits at all? While mediocre Mage Light and Camo Hunter still only apply that buff to a single bar and do such a bad job of actually countering cloaking? That's what I'll take issue with.

Amottica · March 17

GooGa592 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

and because there are counters in the game that block it's use. Soft counters and the purposely designed hard counters. They are very effective.

Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.

They are all effective when used properly. They are proven effective every day. Everyone who has taken the time to figure out how to use the counters knows this.

Some are soft counters and only pull the player out of stealth. Others pull them out and keep them out for a short duration. Lesser experienced NBs often freak out when pulled out of cloak and become easy targets for even less experienced PvP players. Skilled and experienced NBs are not one-trick ponies and just like any player experienced in PvP, they know their build and how to use it for doing damage and survival. A less experienced player will be challenged to take out a more experienced player regardless of what classes are involved.

HowlKimchi · March 18

I went back to my magsorc right now given how ridiculous the new ward is, and I was getting tired of nightblades since ive been maining him since I returned to ESO. Aside from being able to outright kill mounted people with a fully ranged burst rotation, the other thing I found that I couldnt do on my previous class but reliably do on the magsorc is to kill cloakblades without detect pots. Curse + ele sus + streak are all so useful to reveal cloak.

I still have detect pots on me for those nightblades who are better at handling cloak, but these days cloak is so easy to counter now compared to years ago when it suppressed dot damage and all the heals you did in cloak were crits.

silky_soft · March 18

So the problem is mainly the server ok. Its not the skill or the class or their macros. As a high ping nb my actions get sent to the back of the que. I can never achieve the same amount of actions let alone cloakability as a low ping nb.

It's obvious when playing anyone with sub 100ms ping. All your skills are behind theirs in the que. No matter how good you can do a rotation on a pve somthing. In pvp their client positioning and animations overrides anything you see or do on your screen.

You want ramp cost on cloak. I want 100ms pauses between sent and receive on the server for low ping players in pvp. You know what. Both are ridiculous and aren't going to happen.

SandandStars · March 18

nbs arguing cloak is weak

nbs arguing merciless is easy to avoid

nbs go on and enjoy your class

🤮

NyassaV · March 18

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Half the dots in this game pull MBs out of stealth easily and repeatedly. Cloak really isn’t that hard to counter at all.

If only this were true.

The only thing that works reliably to reveal cloakblades is a detect pot.

There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloak.

It's sorta true? It's hard to quantify but there are a lot of things that seem to randomly pull you out of cloak. I have my theories for why. Light staff heavy attacks seemed to do it a lot when the hit at just the right time. I've had both Entropy and Ele Sus randomly break it for seemingly no reason when my attack isn't even rendered on my screen anymore.

I'm not saying Cloak should suppress dots like it used too, but at least we wouldn't have that problem.

NyassaV · March 18

SandandStars wrote: »

nbs arguing cloak is weak

nbs arguing merciless is easy to avoid

nbs go on and enjoy your class

🤮

Cloak is one of the strongest skills in the game... Conversely it also has some of the most effective counters in the game. One skill, one potion, will make it useless. It works until it doesn't. It's a skill of extremes.

NyassaV · March 18

GooGa592 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

Because you can cast it and get nothing unlike unblockable aoe stun with damage and teleport ?

and because there are counters in the game that block it's use. Soft counters and the purposely designed hard counters. They are very effective.

Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.

Spin to win (The best AOE for dealing with cloak in my opinion), Haunting Curse, Fatecarver, Mage light, Flare, Expert Hunter, Detect pots.

All of these skills are reliable ways to deal with cloak either because they negate it or just happen to do a lot of dmg while pulling people out of cloak.

Urzigurumash · March 18

Yeah but,

Cloak being counterable was balanced when it was possible to equal an NB's power level with the counters slotted*. Now it's barely possible even without the counters slotted, mostly possible only on Warden and DK. I.e. Holding block all the time on the two Tank classes still works great. For the most part NBs chew thru the competition right now and any platform's PvP leaderboards surely would indicate such. I'll give you that NB was pretty bad just like 2 years ago tho.

* also AoE DoTs used to decloak