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Why is there still no ramping cost on Shadowy Disguise?
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JustLovely✭✭✭✭✭
Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.
They are all effective when used properly. They are proven effective every day. Everyone who has taken the time to figure out how to use the counters knows this.
Some are soft counters and only pull the player out of stealth. Others pull them out and keep them out for a short duration. Lesser experienced NBs often freak out when pulled out of cloak and become easy targets for even less experienced PvP players. Skilled and experienced NBs are not one-trick ponies and just like any player experienced in PvP, they know their build and how to use it for doing damage and survival. A less experienced player will be challenged to take out a more experienced player regardless of what classes are involved.
No, most counters to cloak are not reliable or effective. It's just flatly not true to claim they are. The only thing that works effectively is a detect pot.
There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloaking.
Edited by JustLovely on 18 March 2024 14:438 -
JerBearESO✭✭✭✭JustLovely wrote: »
Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.
They are all effective when used properly. They are proven effective every day. Everyone who has taken the time to figure out how to use the counters knows this.
Some are soft counters and only pull the player out of stealth. Others pull them out and keep them out for a short duration. Lesser experienced NBs often freak out when pulled out of cloak and become easy targets for even less experienced PvP players. Skilled and experienced NBs are not one-trick ponies and just like any player experienced in PvP, they know their build and how to use it for doing damage and survival. A less experienced player will be challenged to take out a more experienced player regardless of what classes are involved.
No, most counters to cloak are not reliable or effective. It's just flatly not true to claim they are. The only thing that works effectively is a detect pot.
There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloaking.
The detect entropy will pull out of stealth every 2 seconds, which means the NB will have to cloak every 2 seconds instead of every 3 or 4 or whatever it is currebtly. That's basically double the cost so that essentially IS ramped cost. You therefor are saying that ramping cost won't solve it, and so we need ramping cost instead.
I think at this point, I'm more for a cooldown like with arcanist portal. BUT only with stealth detection fully removed. This way we have guaranteed flat control over its power using stealth time vs cooldown time.2 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.
You do know that a is a crap potion that last 15 secs and the class you're trying to kill is one of the fastest classes in the game, that roll dodges has a shade, and now has superb healing with the addition of undeath..... Killing a good NB in 15 seconds is hard and if you do not the fight is totally in the NB hands.So slot a potion or use up a costly skill slot to counter ONE ability on ONE class?? Yea, that’s balanced.
Not to mention this pot is actually the most useful pot and it has no cool down ..... and it also lasts 45 secsPVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables1 -
Lapin_Logic✭✭✭✭✭If there was a ramping cost it would be unusable on Stamblade.
Cloak is busted half the time, and countered by direct damage AOE for half of the rest of it.
I can litterally have been minding my own business passing through a zone Hidden and rotating race against time and cloak, have "Invisible" in the center of my screen (cloak used while also crouched "Hidden") and I can still have a Sorc at max range ele sus, LA curse me because of the way lag and the servers work so on their end i'm apparently doing /DanceArgonian or some nonesense in front of the enemy zerg, they might as well just make NB into a blood mancer brawler at this point because neither side is enjoying cloak/lack of, and once that is broken then all you have is a paper thin class.3 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭JustLovely wrote: »
Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.
They are all effective when used properly. They are proven effective every day. Everyone who has taken the time to figure out how to use the counters knows this.
Some are soft counters and only pull the player out of stealth. Others pull them out and keep them out for a short duration. Lesser experienced NBs often freak out when pulled out of cloak and become easy targets for even less experienced PvP players. Skilled and experienced NBs are not one-trick ponies and just like any player experienced in PvP, they know their build and how to use it for doing damage and survival. A less experienced player will be challenged to take out a more experienced player regardless of what classes are involved.
No, most counters to cloak are not reliable or effective. It's just flatly not true to claim they are. The only thing that works effectively is a detect pot.
There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloaking.
No. Any counter that is not working properly should be fixed. The ramping of cost is not needed and does not make sense as the skill is not comparable to the sorc's streak. A NB that cloaks moves does not move very fast and certainly does not travel near the distance as the sorc's streak does in the same period. Heck, more often than not cloak itself is what is broken and notably less effective.
1 -
hesobad✭✭✭✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.
NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME REQUIRES CERTAIN POTIONS TO COUNTER!! To say that I have to drop my tri restore pots and run detect pots to just counter 1 class is lunacy and terrible game design!Ad Victoriam!5 -
RealLoveBVB✭✭✭✭✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.
NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME REQUIRES CERTAIN POTIONS TO COUNTER!!
Other classes are not able to sneak, being vamp 4 or use invi potions then?
3 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.
NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME REQUIRES CERTAIN POTIONS TO COUNTER!!
Other classes are not able to sneak, being vamp 4 or use invi potions then?
You do realise that detect potions only detect the old 18-20m range against invis right? That was not increased to the 40m range. Only the crouch version of stealth can be detected up to 40m away by detect pots.
As for vamp 4, you cannot cast abilities while in that form of invis because you must remain sprinting to keep the invis and you cannot cast abilities while sprinting, so you must break invis before you can cast an ability when using that.
As for pots, they are on a 66% downtime (45s cooldown minus 15s uptime = 30s downtime) and as such they cannot be spammed like cloak can. These have a hard cooldown of 45 seconds.
You also don't get a guaranteed crit when coming out of either pots or vamp form.
You cannot say they are the same thing because those methods of obtaining invisibility have actual conditions, cooldowns, downsides and most importantly DOWNTIMES that cloak doesn't have.
Cloak should absolutely have a ramping cost. It is spammable invisibility where the class also now has so many other defensive tools at its disposal that it doesn't need cloak to survive anymore outside of roleplay and super niche builds.
To say that a NB has no mobility while cloaked is just a flat out lie, the class has the most movement speed options in the game in its class kit (more than even sorc has because sorc must choose 1 of the 2, while NB gets both passively as secondary effects on already very strong abilities).4 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.
NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME REQUIRES CERTAIN POTIONS TO COUNTER!!
Other classes are not able to sneak, being vamp 4 or use invi potions then?
You do realise that detect potions only detect the old 18-20m range against invis right? That was not increased to the 40m range. Only the crouch version of stealth can be detected up to 40m away by detect pots.
As for vamp 4, you cannot cast abilities while in that form of invis because you must remain sprinting to keep the invis and you cannot cast abilities while sprinting, so you must break invis before you can cast an ability when using that.
As for pots, they are on a 66% downtime (45s cooldown minus 15s uptime = 30s downtime) and as such they cannot be spammed like cloak can. These have a hard cooldown of 45 seconds.
You also don't get a guaranteed crit when coming out of either pots or vamp form.
You cannot say they are the same thing because those methods of obtaining invisibility have actual conditions, cooldowns, downsides and most importantly DOWNTIMES that cloak doesn't have.
Cloak should absolutely have a ramping cost. It is spammable invisibility where the class also now has so many other defensive tools at its disposal that it doesn't need cloak to survive anymore outside of roleplay and super niche builds.
To say that a NB has no mobility while cloaked is just a flat out lie, the class has the most movement speed options in the game in its class kit (more than even sorc has because sorc must choose 1 of the 2, while NB gets both passively as secondary effects on already very strong abilities).
If cloak does gain a ramping cost, I think detect pots should be removed.1 -
Major_Toughness✭✭✭✭Ele Sus (on roughly 99% of PvP builds) breaks cloak when the status effects trigger every 7.5s, and you are likely to have multiple on you
The NBs own ele Sus when the status effects trigger break their own cloak
Structured entropy breaks cloak every time the heal ticks
Every direct AoE skill breaks cloak.
Camo Hunter/Magelight break cloak, range could be increased slightly.
And also potions that reveal you from 20m away.
If you have problems with cloak it is a skill issue. If you don't want to include anything to help counter cloak, just reset the fight.
Just like when I streak multiple times in a row. Except there's no counter to that at all.
I almost forgot, curse breaks cloak too, which is used by the best class in the game right now and like 50% of cyrodiil population.Edited by Major_Toughness on 19 March 2024 08:39PC EU > You5 -
Dovahmiim✭✭✭[Snip]
It 100% needs a ramping cost, but not before bugged reveal mechanics like structured entropy or ele sus are fixed (i believe a couple of proc sets also reveal, way of fire?). People saying to just slot a reveal forget that reveals have reasonably low radii, especially now that most NBs have perma major + minor expedition, and coupled with their high cost, make them fairly bad counters when coupled with positional desync.
[Snip]
[Edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on 20 March 2024 17:22I'm better.2 -
Dovahmiim✭✭✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »
The statement is entirely dependent on the objective strength of the skill. Cloak is currently the strongest skill (both passively and actively) in the game. Don't get me wrong, it's not the only problematic mechanic in game right now, Sorc is also hilariously overtuned. Don't suppose you're a NB main?
[Edited quote]Edited by ZOS_Volpe on 20 March 2024 17:23I'm better.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It has been mentioned hundred times already why it is designed the way it is. I could go on deep into how cloak worked in the past vs how it works now, but that is not the point. What I find funny however is that "mains" of one class still compare one class iconic skill to other class iconic skill despite 2 skills being totally different & operating in a different way (it is like comparing apples to oranges).
Main take here is that one skill has ramping cost, because counter skills in the game that can be used against it are only "soft counters" that do not prevent the use of skill or cancel it's effects.
The other skill does not have ramping cost because there are a lot of "hard counters" that either cancel out the effect of the skill or outright prevent the use of the skills in the 1st place. On top of "hard counter" skills you also have second layer of "soft counter" skills that can minimize the effect of the skill & stack with "hard counter" skills.
It is very similar if you would start comparing it to roll dodge. It has ramping cost, because there are no hard counters that specifically prevent the use of roll-dodge for x seconds etc.2 -
SpacemanSpiff1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RealLoveBVB wrote: »They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.
NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME REQUIRES CERTAIN POTIONS TO COUNTER!! To say that I have to drop my tri restore pots and run detect pots to just counter 1 class is lunacy and terrible game design!
potions are not required, and any class can sneak.JustLovely wrote: »
Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.
They are all effective when used properly. They are proven effective every day. Everyone who has taken the time to figure out how to use the counters knows this.
Some are soft counters and only pull the player out of stealth. Others pull them out and keep them out for a short duration. Lesser experienced NBs often freak out when pulled out of cloak and become easy targets for even less experienced PvP players. Skilled and experienced NBs are not one-trick ponies and just like any player experienced in PvP, they know their build and how to use it for doing damage and survival. A less experienced player will be challenged to take out a more experienced player regardless of what classes are involved.
No, most counters to cloak are not reliable or effective. It's just flatly not true to claim they are. The only thing that works effectively is a detect pot.
There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloaking.
this is false.3 -
ProudMary✭✭✭✭✭
✭JustLovely wrote: »
Except most of the counters against cloak ARE NOT effective. The only thing that is reliably effective counter is a detect pot. Everyone who PvP's regularly and doesn't play an NB agrees on this.
They are all effective when used properly. They are proven effective every day. Everyone who has taken the time to figure out how to use the counters knows this.
Some are soft counters and only pull the player out of stealth. Others pull them out and keep them out for a short duration. Lesser experienced NBs often freak out when pulled out of cloak and become easy targets for even less experienced PvP players. Skilled and experienced NBs are not one-trick ponies and just like any player experienced in PvP, they know their build and how to use it for doing damage and survival. A less experienced player will be challenged to take out a more experienced player regardless of what classes are involved.
No, most counters to cloak are not reliable or effective. It's just flatly not true to claim they are. The only thing that works effectively is a detect pot.
There absolutely should be a ramping cost for cloaking.
No. Any counter that is not working properly should be fixed. The ramping of cost is not needed and does not make sense as the skill is not comparable to the sorc's streak. A NB that cloaks moves does not move very fast and certainly does not travel near the distance as the sorc's streak does in the same period. Heck, more often than not cloak itself is what is broken and notably less effective.
Agreed, the broken counters for revealing a cloaked NB need to be fixed so they function as advertised. As it is now, as others have pointed out, the only reliable way to counter cloak is with a detect pot.
And yes, there should be a ramping cost for a skill as OP as cloak.
Those of us who PvP daily know just how broken the counters for cloak are, as well as how much builds have to suffer their own identity and strength just to deal with NB's ability to cloak, even during the heat of combat even with dots on them.
Edited by ProudMary on 19 March 2024 15:335 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭The cloak is a powerful damage mitigation tool also please do not forget that. Im not sure it was ever meant to do that. You can cloak Northern Storm for example.PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables3 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)
That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.
Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:
NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro
Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)
Edited by Urzigurumash on 19 March 2024 21:06Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭How's a necromancer gonna pop a detect cloak and still get Major Savagery and Brutality? How's your non Power Potion drinking Cro doing?
DK needed help in 2020. NB needed help in 2021. Both got a touch too much. DK is being reeled in, NB should follow.
I would agree it's not Cloak itself. Just like it wasn't actually Corrosive either. Symptoms, not causes.Edited by Urzigurumash on 19 March 2024 21:09Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭And yet a very vocal subset of people call Night Blade "trash" "bottom tier" "Lowest DPS" and "Not worth bringing into content" (yes it know its for EG PVE)
So consider this: Night Blade was built to excel in PVP by its design, and as such, it pays for cloak by being undesirable outside its domain.
A level of balance beyond our consideration is it not?1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭And yet a very vocal subset of people call Night Blade "trash" "bottom tier" "Lowest DPS" and "Not worth bringing into content" (yes it know its for EG PVE)
So consider this: Night Blade was built to excel in PVP by its design, and as such, it pays for cloak by being undesirable outside its domain.
A level of balance beyond our consideration is it not?
Well the devs have made it clear - implicitly through changes and explicitly through a proclamation a few years back - all classes should be able to perform all roles, all playstyles, all content, to a reasonable degree.
Your point is logical but wasn't sBlade a premier parcer years back? And mBlade not too long ago?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Major_Toughness✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)
That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.
Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:
NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro
Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)
What the hell, what platform are you on out of curiosity?
Sorc > Arc > NB > Warden > DK > Plar > CroPC EU > You1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Toughness wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)
That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.
Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:
NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro
Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)
What the hell, what platform are you on out of curiosity?
Sorc > Arc > NB > Warden > DK > Plar > Cro
Say what? Xbox so still in last patch but i didn't expect so much change. You're saying this is the new ranking or for last patch too?
( I see the "class pairs" still seem to hold)
Edit: this forum was in pretty universal agreement that Damage Shields needed a buff, me included.. your tier list suggests the Mending/Vitality buff to Shields went a long way to push the two Damage Shield classes ahead of the two Tank classes? I'm aware sorc got their burst heal but I'm guessing it's still weaker than Warden/DK burst heals.
Edited by Urzigurumash on 20 March 2024 01:57Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Major_Toughness wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)
That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.
Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:
NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro
Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)
What the hell, what platform are you on out of curiosity?
Sorc > Arc > NB > Warden > DK > Plar > Cro
Personally I think it's more like:
Mag Sorc = NB > DK = Arc > Stam Sorc >>> Warden > Plar >>> Cro
That said, despite the placement of NBs, you will run into a lot of unskilled NBs. The assassin archetype has always been popular and will attract players of different skill levels. There are probably 2 types of NBs: (1) those who can handle being revealed in cloak or dont even run cloak in the first place and (2) those who rely on cloak and with fold like a wet paper towel once they are revealed.
Regarding the detect pots discussion that no other class requires me to use pots to counter them (which is untrue because of all the things that pull NBs out of cloak), look at it another way... No other playstyle is fully countered by just using a potion.
Personally, I think cloak is fine. Both as someone who plays NBs and have faced off against NBs on other classes. I don't think cloak is the reason why NBs are top tier. The reason they are top tier is because of healthy offering, slottable major prophecy on any bar, major resolve being passively gained with their main spammable, and now, their own dark deal. Also, not having to cast relentless focus, and the stacks persisting out of combat. Basically, they're really convenient to run now and don't run into bar space problems.
2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭HowlKimchi wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »RealLoveBVB wrote: »They increased the detection range of detection pots to 40+ meters.
If you still can't counter cloak spammers with that, then the cloak or the NBs aren't the issue.
NO OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME REQUIRES CERTAIN POTIONS TO COUNTER!!
Other classes are not able to sneak, being vamp 4 or use invi potions then?
You do realise that detect potions only detect the old 18-20m range against invis right? That was not increased to the 40m range. Only the crouch version of stealth can be detected up to 40m away by detect pots.
As for vamp 4, you cannot cast abilities while in that form of invis because you must remain sprinting to keep the invis and you cannot cast abilities while sprinting, so you must break invis before you can cast an ability when using that.
As for pots, they are on a 66% downtime (45s cooldown minus 15s uptime = 30s downtime) and as such they cannot be spammed like cloak can. These have a hard cooldown of 45 seconds.
You also don't get a guaranteed crit when coming out of either pots or vamp form.
You cannot say they are the same thing because those methods of obtaining invisibility have actual conditions, cooldowns, downsides and most importantly DOWNTIMES that cloak doesn't have.
Cloak should absolutely have a ramping cost. It is spammable invisibility where the class also now has so many other defensive tools at its disposal that it doesn't need cloak to survive anymore outside of roleplay and super niche builds.
To say that a NB has no mobility while cloaked is just a flat out lie, the class has the most movement speed options in the game in its class kit (more than even sorc has because sorc must choose 1 of the 2, while NB gets both passively as secondary effects on already very strong abilities).
If cloak does gain a ramping cost, I think detect pots should be removed.
Those who are used to using counters to pull NBs out of stealth would not see a need for the ramping cost.
I will say there is no better escape mechanic than a sorcs streak. I have yet to be taken down when I used steak to get away.
1 -
Major_Toughness✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)
That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.
Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:
NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro
Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)
What the hell, what platform are you on out of curiosity?
Sorc > Arc > NB > Warden > DK > Plar > Cro
Say what? Xbox so still in last patch but i didn't expect so much change. You're saying this is the new ranking or for last patch too?
( I see the "class pairs" still seem to hold)
Edit: this forum was in pretty universal agreement that Damage Shields needed a buff, me included.. your tier list suggests the Mending/Vitality buff to Shields went a long way to push the two Damage Shield classes ahead of the two Tank classes? I'm aware sorc got their burst heal but I'm guessing it's still weaker than Warden/DK burst heals.
To be fair the only difference is last patch Sorc meant Stamsorc and this patch it means magsorc. Nothing else changed.PC EU > You0 -
xDeusEJRx✭✭✭✭✭
✭HowlKimchi wrote: »Major_Toughness wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Again it's not cloak itself but by slotting the counters you lose power. Case in point anybody slotting Magelight is losing the Fighters Guild Weapon Damage Bonus and chance at Minor Berserk. (Ie the stun block on Magelight is further counter to cloak than Camo Hunter provides)
That's one less named buff for anybody slotting Magelight, but the NB is swimming in them from class skills alone.
Player counts tell the story just fine and we all know it. To me the tier list is pretty obvious these days:
NB - DK Warden - Arc Sorc - Plar - Cro
Note DK and Warden, Arc and Sorc, and Plar and Cro are essentially mirrored classes, we still await the New NB. (A flamboyantly bright and pink Bard is my suggestion)
What the hell, what platform are you on out of curiosity?
Sorc > Arc > NB > Warden > DK > Plar > Cro
Personally I think it's more like:
Mag Sorc = NB > DK = Arc > Stam Sorc >>> Warden > Plar >>> Cro
That said, despite the placement of NBs, you will run into a lot of unskilled NBs. The assassin archetype has always been popular and will attract players of different skill levels. There are probably 2 types of NBs: (1) those who can handle being revealed in cloak or dont even run cloak in the first place and (2) those who rely on cloak and with fold like a wet paper towel once they are revealed.
Regarding the detect pots discussion that no other class requires me to use pots to counter them (which is untrue because of all the things that pull NBs out of cloak), look at it another way... No other playstyle is fully countered by just using a potion.
Personally, I think cloak is fine. Both as someone who plays NBs and have faced off against NBs on other classes. I don't think cloak is the reason why NBs are top tier. The reason they are top tier is because of healthy offering, slottable major prophecy on any bar, major resolve being passively gained with their main spammable, and now, their own dark deal. Also, not having to cast relentless focus, and the stacks persisting out of combat. Basically, they're really convenient to run now and don't run into bar space problems.
Imo reason why nightblade is top tier is a combination of bar space being really handy right now plus all the tools in the world to be evasive as hell and STILL be tanky enough to tank and spank enemies.
Nightblade has all the tools in the world to do everything. Same as to why Sorc moved up in update 41.
It's an issue being able to be highly evasiveness, have high damage, high tankiness, high healing, good bar space, good lineup of buffs and debuffs and sustain and all of that with extreme ease. Although I'd argue Nightblade does it better and more effectively than Sorc does but I'd say they're both close in tiers.
Having great bar space alone makes being a DPS 10x easier, being given the ability to stay alive in fights a lot (not just through cloak, but through Blur skill and shadow image)
The issue is Nightblade can do everything and with extreme ease, which is grossly overtuned in my opinion.
@StaticWave Could break this down better than I can, he mentioned similar talking points in discussing u41 sorcSolo PvP'er PS5 NA player
90% of my body is made of Magblade4 -
sharquez✭✭✭✭✭
✭The bottom line is the status quo of cloak hasn't changed, likely won't, and nor should it despite opinions to the contrary.
The fact that there are 3 direct skill counters 1 consumable counter and several indirect skill counters is more than enough. Accept that sometimes you get outplayed and it's okay to lose. My Mo whether I'm on my NB or not is to counter-gank other NBs. I have detect pots on every toon and they work flawlessly provided the NB doesn't outplay me and usually ends in a satisfying kill or I overextend and get what's coming.1 -
SaffronCitrusflower✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The bottom line is the status quo of cloak hasn't changed, likely won't, and nor should it despite opinions to the contrary.
The fact that there are 3 direct skill counters 1 consumable counter and several indirect skill counters is more than enough. Accept that sometimes you get outplayed and it's okay to lose. My Mo whether I'm on my NB or not is to counter-gank other NBs. I have detect pots on every toon and they work flawlessly provided the NB doesn't outplay me and usually ends in a satisfying kill or I overextend and get what's coming.
The fact is that the counters to cloak are unreliable with exception of detect pots. Camo hunter and flares don't work as the skill descriptions say they do with any kind of consistency. NB's are not supposed to be able to cloak immediately after being revealed by these skills, but they absolutely can and almost always do.
As it is now people have to build to be able to counter NB's, which makes them weaker at all the other things they need to do to be competitive in PvP. NB's are just extremely OP right now, even without cloak. That's why there should be a ramping cost for cloak.
Edited by SaffronCitrusflower on 20 March 2024 16:365