Imperial City--can't lose more stones than your attacker is carrying

limitswitch · March 6

I haven't scoured all the old threads, so this has probably already been proposed. But given that it hasn't been implemented yet, perhaps it needs to be said again.

The biggest issue I've had with Imperial City is that it is overrun with nightblades who will gank you from the shadows while you're PvEing. Not necessarily a problem in itself, but often these players are carrying no stones themselves and face no risk of loss if you manage to survive the initial assault and fight back and provide no reward if you manage to turn the tables on them.

Capping tel var loss to whatever your slayer has on them at the time would cause these coward-blade sucker punchers to actually wager something for the chance of a large payout.

Major_Toughness · March 6

Has been said before and is still a terrible idea.

limitswitch · March 6

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Has been said before and is still a terrible idea.

Please elaborate or link to a thread where this was already discussed.

Risk = reward seems like a pretty good idea to me. A casino were the slot machines were free to play would be pretty broken.

Desiato · March 6

I advise players concerned about losing tel var stones to play Rust for a month. You'll never care about losing tv again.

RetPing · March 6

Yep, already proposed and I think is a very good idea.

The idea of IC is to be a high risk / high reward zones but for nightblades there are zero risk cause of course they go with zero TV just to gank people that has spent hours to farm them.

This is why the zone is just empty all the times.
People hates to give TV to some very brave NB that attack you from stealth while you already fighing some NPC.
And if I kill that NB what I gain? Nothing.

Desiato · March 6

limitswitch wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Has been said before and is still a terrible idea.

Please elaborate or link to a thread where this was already discussed.

Risk = reward seems like a pretty good idea to me. A casino were the slot machines were free to play would be pretty broken.

I don't think it would change the result very much for the players it is intended to protect. I think they would still be rightfully weary of carrying around a lot of tv.

I think player killers in IC would be more prone to run in larger groups, and if you're carrying more tv, why not run Imperial Physique and be even more deadly? Plus a decent pvp player can probably escape for long enough just to port to Cyrodiil if under pressure.

TV loss has already been nerfed for the sake of PVE grinders, and I don't think it should be again. Though it is PvPvE zone, it is one of the few zones in the game for PVP focused players. So many aspects of PVP in ESO have been modified to help PVE players, and it doesn't ever change the results for them.

Incidentally, if you're into risk vs reward, an Imperial Physique group is a ton of fun.

MasterSpatula · March 6

I think you're making the mistake of thinking the IC should be a place where fair play means a damned thing. It is not. ZOS intentionally designed the IC to reward the worst people for the worst behavior. Expect gankers to camp quest objectives, spawn points, and return points. Expect to get bosses to a sliver of health before being wiped out by others who did none of the work but reap all of the rewards. If this bothers you, that's probably because you're not a completely rotten person. The IC isn't for you. It never was.

RealLoveBVB · March 7

All your hate goes towards nightblades.
So you are fine getting zerged down by some ball group then or would it be a fair battle for you?

BenTSG · March 7

I mean I can certainly see the reasoning. Without anything to lose at all, people aren't exactly pressed for cons to just build to gank and be done with it, though that can work twofold and anyone worth their salt will just build tanker specifically for IC to attempt to avoid being ganked, so now for everyone there's loads of tanky people around. No risk, all the reward to the ganker, with their only loss being anything they gained from having nothing on them in the first place. Though on the flipside too, it's not exactly hard to stall a fight until you can port into Cyro either, so making this change would be almost redundant.

I'm not entirely sure if I can see enough reasoning to be either for, or against such a change. As I say, it's got it's pros and cons to it, and I'm not going to pretend I am big brain enough to hash it all out, but I think I remain neutral on this. If it ever happened, great. If not, no biggie. They could always run a test campaign for a little bit under this rule set and see how people respond to it.

In the meantime though, I'm going to stick to my detect pots and sentry set. Seems very little people tend to use pots or expect it, and tied with the Sentry set it makes for a fun time being able to have a high detect up time. Someone's gotta use what the games given us, and I like playing more of support!

RetPing · March 7

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

All your hate goes towards nightblades.
So you are fine getting zerged down by some ball group then or would it be a fair battle for you?

I can see a zerg incoming so I can most of times avoid them.
Instead the brave NBs use stealth for attacking you from behind.
And of course they wait for you to be engaged in fight with some NPC because they are top PvP players.

IC is empty and a total failure becuase of a single skill in the game.
And please, NBs, dont waste your time writing there are many counters to that.
I don't want to base my build on the fact I have to counter a single skill in the game.

xylena_lazarow · March 7

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Has been said before and is still a terrible idea.

Can you elaborate why it is a good thing for me to be able to gain thousands while risking nothing myself?

Can you elaborate why it is a good thing for me to gain nothing from a player kill while I myself risk thousands?

CrazyKitty · March 7

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

All your hate goes towards nightblades.
So you are fine getting zerged down by some ball group then or would it be a fair battle for you?

Yes, it's better and far more fair to be able to see your enemy as opposed to being one shotted by the invisible man.

Desiato · March 7

CrazyKitty wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

All your hate goes towards nightblades.
So you are fine getting zerged down by some ball group then or would it be a fair battle for you?

Yes, it's better and far more fair to be able to see your enemy as opposed to being one shotted by the invisible man.

If you are being one-shotted, you are not building for PVP correctly. Also, most, if not all high damage combos from cloak have a tell that allows enough time for an attentive player to block.

Riding between keeps last night, 2 nbs fired lethal arrows at me from stealth. I had enough time to dismount, roll dodge, buff, pop a detect and kill them both within 15s.

Though I played a lot years ago, I'm now inexperienced because the game is so different and what I would call an objectively bad player. Plus I'm old and much slower than I used to be.

Try using detection potions. Probably 95% of nbs are squishblades that melt if they can't cloak. There are also ability counters.

I run detection potions, but if they are on cooldown, I find spamming AEs is also effective against a nb attempting to escape/reset.

I'm not worried about nbs in IC, I am worried about groups and talented individuals running OP builds, usually arena builds -- because I don't run stalemate builds.

An OP nb is probably using cloak to reset/recover, not gank.

sharquez · March 7

Upheaving this established zone because you personally don't like it is hardly sporting. Learn the rules of the game and leverage them to your advantage. It's the harshest zone in the game. The only place where you can experience rewarding thrilling victory and devastating crushing defeat. Both these are necessary to experience the full thrill of IC. If it's not for you it's not for you. Don't take it away from those of us who enjoy it.

Desiato · March 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Has been said before and is still a terrible idea.

Can you elaborate why it is a good thing for me to be able to gain thousands while risking nothing myself?

Can you elaborate why it is a good thing for me to gain nothing from a player kill while I myself risk thousands?

Look at it from the pov of a full loot game like Rust. Rust is basically an mmo/fps/rpg pvp game. It can be played pve, but that's very unpopular because it's completely boring.

In Rust, not only can other players loot everything from your corpse, they can also raid your base, take all your loot and kill you in your sleep when you're not even online because the game has 'sleepers' -- which means that when a player exits a server, their character remains in-game sleeping.

In Rust, a player can lose weeks/100+ hours of progress within an hour after being raided. If they planned poorly, they might have to start over completely!

The above probably sounds absolutely untenable to the avg eso player. But it's incredible, thrilling fun for the right kind of pvper. It really gets one's heart pounding at times. The gameplay not only involves the overt combat skills, but developing strategies and tactics to minimize losses. The gameplay is extremely emergent and constantly evolving.

I believe IC was designed in the same vein. IC PVE grinding would be the same boring chore it is in every other PVE zone if not for the risk posed by player killers. They are actually a feature for the kind of player IC was designed for. For a PVE grinder to be successful in IC, they have to come up with strategies and tactics to minimize losses. That is a big part of the gameplay.

Of course, 99.9% of ESO is ultra-casual super ezmode content, so not everyone is going to like it. Most players won't be into that kind of thing. So? I'm not into normal dungeon pugs, but I *chose* to grind them to collect sets. I don't enjoy the vast majority of ESO content because it's so incredibly boring to me. But I have a choice. Just like I have a choice to engage that annoying ball group or 1v1 the decent player with the vat/dsa build I struggle with.

Both Cyrodiil and IC are asymmetrical by design. They are not intended to be structured, fair experiences. I am always baffled the hate I get when I "zerg" someone in a tower down when that's what they chose to expose themselves to. Few, if any fights in Cyro/IC are actually fair. That's part of the fun for the audience the content was designed for. For the record, I also play completely solo at times and get zerged down without ever complaining about it because I made a choice to do that.

When I considered myself to be a decent player many years ago, I was never afraid to lose a few thousand tv. I ran Imperial Physique at times and died doing it. It's no big deal. It's just a game, and the potential loss is what made it thrilling. A successful player killer in IC still has to make it out and have the same options as everyone else.

The only time I ever enjoyed grinding gear in ESO was the IC patch when it was the only place to find certain mats in abundance. It was great fun doing so while avoiding the haxus and nm groups roaming the AD sewers.

All ESO PVE content except hardmodes have been nerfed for the casual player. Normal dungeons used to be more difficult than Vet dungeons are now. Hell, VR10 overland mobs used to be more difficult than vet dungeon mobs.

IC has been nerfed enough. Its mobs used to be as strong as the original vet difficulty mobs and tv loss has already been reduced. So please, let's leave IC as is for the players it was designed for. No content is ever going to be all things to all players.

ProudMary · March 7

Desiato wrote: »

CrazyKitty wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

All your hate goes towards nightblades.
So you are fine getting zerged down by some ball group then or would it be a fair battle for you?

Yes, it's better and far more fair to be able to see your enemy as opposed to being one shotted by the invisible man.

If you are being one-shotted, you are not building for PVP correctly. Also, most, if not all high damage combos from cloak have a tell that allows enough time for an attentive player to block.

Riding between keeps last night, 2 nbs fired lethal arrows at me from stealth. I had enough time to dismount, roll dodge, buff, pop a detect and kill them both within 15s.

Though I played a lot years ago, I'm now inexperienced because the game is so different and what I would call an objectively bad player. Plus I'm old and much slower than I used to be.

Try using detection potions. Probably 95% of nbs are squishblades that melt if they can't cloak. There are also ability counters.

I run detection potions, but if they are on cooldown, I find spamming AEs is also effective against a nb attempting to escape/reset.

I'm not worried about nbs in IC, I am worried about groups and talented individuals running OP builds, usually arena builds -- because I don't run stalemate builds.

An OP nb is probably using cloak to reset/recover, not gank.

Not true these days, except the part about being one shotted. It will actually be 2 to 3 skills hitting you at once that makes it seem like one skill, but that's just how OP out of balance NB's are right now. NB's are absolutely OP right now almost to the point of being game breaking. There is a reason NB populations are exploding right now.

Desiato · March 7

ProudMary wrote: »

Not true these days, except the part about being one shotted. It will actually be 2 to 3 skills hitting you at once that makes it seem like one skill, but that's just how OP out of balance NB's are right now. NB's are absolutely OP right now almost to the point of being game breaking. There is a reason NB populations are exploding right now.

It has always been in the case in eso that skilled players would time abilities to layer damage to hit within proximity of each other. It's what I used to try to do. (now I'm mainly just brawling and trying to layer dots, but maybe I'll improve to where I can time burst better)

I've been playing recently and encountered strong nbs, and I'm not getting "one shot" (which means multiple abilities hitting within a short interval) unless I screw up and don't respond accordingly within the window available to me. I'm not running with 35k+ hp or tanky builds either. And again, I'm old and slow!

I understand the consensus is that nb is op, but that's really a certain kind of build played by decent players and definitely not most nbs one will encounter. Like I said, 95% I encounter are squishblades that crutch on cloak. My particular build at the moment struggles more with vat/dsa builds, especially arcanist and sorc. Again though, I am still learning the current meta.

Ingenon · March 7

Great idea! ZOS should do this! No risk, no reward.

<snip>

gvgisdi · March 7

It’s a good idea

the1andonlyskwex · March 7

What happens if 10 people contribute to killing you? Is the cap the sum of what they're all carrying? How do the stones you do drop get divided?

I think this idea is half baked at best.

The solution is to just be mindful of how many stones you're carrying and don't run around with more than twice as many as you're willing to lose.

peacenote · March 7

Out of curiosity, I looked up what ZOS had to say about tel var.

Two things caught my eye:

Tel var have to originally come from somewhere right? Obviously I knew that but it was interesting to me find that "normal monsters usually only carry 8" stones. Instead of making it so that you must have tel var on you to get a payout (which kind of seems less fun and unfair to folks who aren't ganking but happen to get lucky with some kills), maybe it would be better to make it so players who turn the tables and beat these folks with 0 tel var have a chance to get 8 stones from them anyway, as if they were a monster. I think this could only work if there was diminishing returns (such that you could only get this from a real character say, once per hour, so that it didn't incentivize ganking even more), but at least it would give you something if you won.
This paragraph is also interesting:

For those who want to avoid any risk, we've added quests, including repeatable ones, in the Imperial City that will reward you with a Tel Var Stone box. Unlike with Tel Var Stones you get by killing monsters and enemy-alliance player characters, you won't lose these boxes if your character is slain. You can take these boxes to your home base, open them in safety, and deposit all the Tel Var Stones inside straight into your bank. Doing so will prevent these stones from increasing your multiplier, but it keeps them safe. Or you just open them right where you got them … deciding if the risk is worth it is up to you!

To me this clearly states that the solution to the problem already exists. If you have an issue with risking your tel var to someone who might be sneaking around not carrying any in return, the solution is to do the quests that give you a box reward and not open it. This is the advertised strategy - giving players a way to not risk their own tel var, vs. disincentivizing people not to fight if they happen to not be carrying any.

I know that I don't really play my nightblades, but when I am in IC on any character I very regularly bank my tel var and would be pretty bummed if, when I went back out fresh and started fighting again, if I couldn't get anything from folks in my initial kills as I worked my way back up. I think the OP's idea is too broad of a solution to a niche problem.

limitswitch · March 7

If you are being one-shotted, you are not building for PVP correctly. Also, most, if not all high damage combos from cloak have a tell that allows enough time for an attentive player to block.

I'd like to actually have some offensive ability instead of basing my whole build on anti-gank countermeasures.

As it is I've got 30k+ health, 30k+ resists, 2k crit. resist and still getting "one shot" (OK "comboed") by the invisible man carrying no stones--whose non-ulti skills still hit for over 20k. The preponderance of "NB is out of control" threads show I'm not just imagining things.

Added to this, I'm usually in the middle of fighting 5 or 6 NPCs so I'm not always at max health.

The only thing I'm suggesting is to at least make these brave men risk something to get their ill-deserved rewards.

xylena_lazarow · March 7

Desiato wrote: »

The above probably sounds absolutely untenable to the avg eso player. But it's incredible, thrilling fun for the right kind of pvper.

I'm fine with high risk, high reward gameplay. The problem is the two scenarios I described are:

low risk, high reward (e.g. stealth ganking while carrying nothing yourself)

high risk, low reward (e.g. skillfully defeating a threatening player who turns out was carrying nothing)

Under OP's proposal, I can't imagine there won't still be thrill seekers carrying tons of stones looking to win big.

limitswitch · March 7

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What happens if 10 people contribute to killing you? Is the cap the sum of what they're all carrying? How do the stones you do drop get divided?

I think this idea is half baked at best.

This is the only valid criticism I've seen so far so thank you for contributing something instead of trying to justify insanity.

My solution would be to just use the stone count of the person to get the finishing blow. A straight up average of your attacker's stone seems fairer at first glance, but would be too easy to abuse by a team with one tank carrying 10k stones and the attackers carrying 0. 10k tank could hit once and hide while his buddy does the rest, so average would not work.

At least you know the guy who got the final hit was visible and in range of return fire.

limitswitch · March 7

peacenote wrote: »

I know that I don't really play my nightblades, but when I am in IC on any character I very regularly bank my tel var and would be pretty bummed if, when I went back out fresh and started fighting again, if I couldn't get anything from folks in my initial kills as I worked my way back up.

Don't bank all your stones if that concerns you.

the1andonlyskwex · March 8

limitswitch wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

What happens if 10 people contribute to killing you? Is the cap the sum of what they're all carrying? How do the stones you do drop get divided?

I think this idea is half baked at best.

This is the only valid criticism I've seen so far so thank you for contributing something instead of trying to justify insanity.

My solution would be to just use the stone count of the person to get the finishing blow. A straight up average of your attacker's stone seems fairer at first glance, but would be too easy to abuse by a team with one tank carrying 10k stones and the attackers carrying 0. 10k tank could hit once and hide while his buddy does the rest, so average would not work.

At least you know the guy who got the final hit was visible and in range of return fire.

I'm sure that will go over great when a random player with 0 stones runs up and gets the killing blow on your opponent at the end of a long battle.

Using the killing blow doesn't even address your tank problem. They could just be the designated executor in a group full of DDs who burn people into execute range. A sorc or templar wouldn't even have to time it all that carefully (because sorc's execute procs on demand, and templar's execute window is so huge).

limitswitch · March 8

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm sure that will go over great when a random player with 0 stones runs up and gets the killing blow on your opponent at the end of a long battle.

Another valid criticism! Kudos, friend.

Here is a less, half baked proposal but could probably still use a bit of your polish.

The math:
Victim_Stones_Lost = min( avg( Attackers_Stones), 0.5 * Victim_Stones_Carried )
Your_Stones_Awarded = min( Victim_Stones_Lost * Percent_Damage_You_Dealt, Your_Stones_Carried)

Scenario 1: Victim carrying 2000 stones is jumped by 3 attackers (A, B and C) carrying 1000, 100 and 400 stones respectively. A does 10% of the damage, B does 50% and C does 40%.

Using the above formulas, the victim's losses are set to the attacker stone average (500) which is lower than 50% of the victim's stones normally lost. The stones are distributed to A, B and C as (50, 100, 200) with 150 stones unawarded but still lost by the victim.

Scenario 2: Victim carrying 3000 stones is jumped by 4 attackers (A, B, C and D) carrying 2000, 200, 0 and 5000 stones respectively. A does 75% of the damage, B does 10%, C does 10% and D does 5%. Victim's losses are capped at 50% of what they are carrying (1500) even though the attacker's average is higher (2400). The stones are distributed to A, B, C and D as (1125, 150, 0, 75). Again with 150 stones lost but unawarded.

Scenario 3: A very cool dude carrying 5000 stones is killed by a perfectly balanced, incredibly brave nightblade carrying 0 stones who did 100% of the damage in a superhuman display of skill! No stones lost or awarded.

RealLoveBVB · March 8

Just join the dark force and make a nightblade too

VoidCommander · March 8

Desiato wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Major_Toughness wrote: »

Has been said before and is still a terrible idea.

Can you elaborate why it is a good thing for me to be able to gain thousands while risking nothing myself?

Can you elaborate why it is a good thing for me to gain nothing from a player kill while I myself risk thousands?

Look at it from the pov of a full loot game like Rust. Rust is basically an mmo/fps/rpg pvp game. It can be played pve, but that's very unpopular because it's completely boring.

In Rust, not only can other players loot everything from your corpse, they can also raid your base, take all your loot and kill you in your sleep when you're not even online because the game has 'sleepers' -- which means that when a player exits a server, their character remains in-game sleeping.

In Rust, a player can lose weeks/100+ hours of progress within an hour after being raided. If they planned poorly, they might have to start over completely!

The above probably sounds absolutely untenable to the avg eso player. But it's incredible, thrilling fun for the right kind of pvper. It really gets one's heart pounding at times. The gameplay not only involves the overt combat skills, but developing strategies and tactics to minimize losses. The gameplay is extremely emergent and constantly evolving.

I believe IC was designed in the same vein. IC PVE grinding would be the same boring chore it is in every other PVE zone if not for the risk posed by player killers. They are actually a feature for the kind of player IC was designed for. For a PVE grinder to be successful in IC, they have to come up with strategies and tactics to minimize losses. That is a big part of the gameplay.

Of course, 99.9% of ESO is ultra-casual super ezmode content, so not everyone is going to like it. Most players won't be into that kind of thing. So? I'm not into normal dungeon pugs, but I *chose* to grind them to collect sets. I don't enjoy the vast majority of ESO content because it's so incredibly boring to me. But I have a choice. Just like I have a choice to engage that annoying ball group or 1v1 the decent player with the vat/dsa build I struggle with.

Both Cyrodiil and IC are asymmetrical by design. They are not intended to be structured, fair experiences. I am always baffled the hate I get when I "zerg" someone in a tower down when that's what they chose to expose themselves to. Few, if any fights in Cyro/IC are actually fair. That's part of the fun for the audience the content was designed for. For the record, I also play completely solo at times and get zerged down without ever complaining about it because I made a choice to do that.

When I considered myself to be a decent player many years ago, I was never afraid to lose a few thousand tv. I ran Imperial Physique at times and died doing it. It's no big deal. It's just a game, and the potential loss is what made it thrilling. A successful player killer in IC still has to make it out and have the same options as everyone else.

The only time I ever enjoyed grinding gear in ESO was the IC patch when it was the only place to find certain mats in abundance. It was great fun doing so while avoiding the haxus and nm groups roaming the AD sewers.

All ESO PVE content except hardmodes have been nerfed for the casual player. Normal dungeons used to be more difficult than Vet dungeons are now. Hell, VR10 overland mobs used to be more difficult than vet dungeon mobs.

IC has been nerfed enough. Its mobs used to be as strong as the original vet difficulty mobs and tv loss has already been reduced. So please, let's leave IC as is for the players it was designed for. No content is ever going to be all things to all players.

The main issue with your example of Rust is that a raider taking on a base of 100+ hours is far from risking nothing. They need armor, explosives, high grade weapons, etc. A stealth nightblade with 361 tel var ganking a player to steal their 3k tel var is the equivalent of a naked Rust player killing a kitted out player with a bow and arrow. Is it possible, yes. Is it common? Absolutely not.

ESO Imperial City should fully embrace the risk/reward dynamic, and they have a psuedo method in place in terms of group Tel Var distribution, but it could definitely do with more refinement such as you risk what you aim to gain situations.

sharquez · March 8

The "complex" math (relative to how it works now) required to make this ante system work showcases its flaws inherently. When designing a system the fewer moving parts and possible failure points the better. If we're being honest more often than not the path of least resistance is taken in this game when maintaining systems, like the new mythic for no cp pvp for example.

That mythic disables all set bonuses and gives its own instead of the combat team tagging sets in the game as to whether they work in no CP or not.

While not user-friendly in a broader sense it does solve the problem when moving to and from different pvp content. At least that's my speculation I can't speak for their design choices in earnest.

Desiato · March 8

VoidCommander wrote: »

The main issue with your example of Rust is that a raider taking on a base of 100+ hours is far from risking nothing. They need armor, explosives, high grade weapons, etc. A stealth nightblade with 361 tel var ganking a player to steal their 3k tel var is the equivalent of a naked Rust player killing a kitted out player with a bow and arrow. Is it possible, yes. Is it common? Absolutely not.

That wasn't intended to be an apple to apple comparison. It was meant to illustrate the vulnerability that Rust creates for the player.

A better comparison to an element of Rust would be grinding resource nodes or comps at a monument. No one goes out with a full inventory to do those things, nor do the players who hunt them. That's a much better comparison to the asymmetry of grinding tv and having to deal with player killers.

When grinding comps in Rust, one must be cognizant to get too greedy and weigh the odds so they don't lose a full inventory to a guy with an empty inventory camping in a bush or a roof camper who will leave their base to loot them naked. That's the best comparison to grinding tv in IC.

An outside observer reading this sub would think nightblade gankers were the scourge of ESO because that's how it is for the casual ESO PVE player who tries PVP. But the real problem in this game are the abundance of tanks, healbots, other stalemate builds and on the other side of the spectrum, completely OP meta builds.

From an IC pov, the biggest problem is zergs in a zone with dynamics more suitable for small scalers.

The proposed change in this thread wouldn't change a thing for the alpha predators in IC. Losing a few thousand tv is water off their backs. They don't care. When I played in IC, I had like a million banked. I think I still do from 2019. It would hurt the average small scale and solo pvp player who isn't part of the IC bro culture.

How do you think the proposed change would work in practice? I think it would result in more tanks, stalemate builds, larger groups and zergs. The PVE player would still have a bad time as would the average PVP small scaler without connections. In other words, the quality of the PVP would suffer greatly. That sounds terrible to me.