All class skills need to be redesigned

aliceaje

I know there is argument that ESO games are not known to have class identity, where one character can be whatever. The difference is that this is an MMORPG. You pick a class during creation. This class is fixed, and can't be changed. Unlike other elder scroll games where you can just be a warrior, or be a mage, or thief, with all the bells and whistles. We need some class identity in this game, we need some redesigns also. For instance, please redo Necromance, or change its name to something befitting its toolset.

moderatelyfatman

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

ADarklore

I believe they talked about making some changes that were something similar to Arcanist's crux system to all classes... so I do believe some class design changes may be headed our way. However, this scares me more than excites me as ZOS doesn't have the greatest track record for making good changes to class skills.

ViggyBoi

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

I really dont think that Templar can be considered on the same level in terms of the fitting the newer class skill organization shtick. Sure restoring light is almost completely made up of healing skills, but Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath are kind of an unholy mash up of support and offensive skills. All four of the original classes have their skill trees fit themes before specific roles.

KaosWarMonk

All the class skill lines should be available and you can have any 3 active at any one time.

The original class setups can be there for players who don't want to make their own.

Just like every other TES game.

Szalord

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

Absolutely hugely disagree. The fact that the older classes have abilities / morphs that are role-crossover and actually not always like "ability in healing skill line = ability does healing, period" add a lot of flavor, class identity and increases the amount of choice you have when creating builds. Just look at how many abilities a dragonknight DD can slot for various activities and situations, and compare those to what a necromancer can do - it's night and day.

I'd argue that the fact the skill lines on newer classes are so specialized it actually hugely limits them in their choices for a given specific role.

Celticmagick

I agree whole heartedly. I think the class abilities should provide the main and unique class function (damage, heal, etc.) while weapon and guild abilities are more utilitarian.

I main a Nightblade and would love to see some emphasis put back into our class abilities, and hopefully bring us back on par with other classes. For example, the NB is supposed to be a rogue class. Rogues typically utilize poisons, bleeds, crits, and quick attacks. Our class abilities should yield bonus damage against enemies that are poisoned and bleeding. A class passive that adds a "blade flurry" effect to give us some cleaving damage for an AoE boost. Make the hemorrhage passive actually about bleeding.

As such, weapon poisons should be buffed to make them viable for DPS gain or utilitarian debuffs (back bar) and become a foundational part of a NB build.

There's weapon skills that fit certain classes. Maybe incorporate these abilities into the classes? For example: Rapid strikes is a good rogue ability. Stampede is a good warrior type ability. Etc.

Foxtrot39

imho rogue/assassin should more benefit from increase damage from bleeding and poison than extra damage to people affected by those damage type

I do like the fact they put back blood magic with the syphonning changes, still annoyed malevolent offering has a strong upfront mag cost and either morph has self targeting (the ammount of time I casted it and it healed me for 400hp instead of the ally thats nearly dead is pestering me to this day), loved to use it as tank before to play as a hybrid tank-healer

Tho witht the sustain I can push I can somewhat do that role once more

SilverBride

The last thing I want is to have to redo the skills on all my characters.

MashmalloMan

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

I actually don't want this, I think it's a mistake they've ran with for way too long. Yeah, it's easy to understand for newer players, but it's made the newer classes feel very restrictive; lacking variety in their damage kit because they have bunch of unnecessary healer/tank/utility morphs that could easily be combined into 1. There's always a winning morph that overshadows the other.

Warden as an example, I could easily see 3 damage skills be introduced from 1 of the morphs on Nature's Grasp (gap closer), Healing Seed (aoe dot), and Frozen Gate (aoe spammable) while keeping the original skill identity's alive. Like what are even some of these morphs meant for? Expansive Frost Cloak vs Ice Fortress, Expansive is next to useless and extremely niche. Ice Fortress still shares its Major Resolve in a smaller radius.

The original design introduces some fun passive synergies as well. NB's get Major Resolve from their spammable being in Shadow instead of Assassination. Sorc's get 10% health return from their spammable being in Dark Magic instead of Storm Calling. Templars get better ult gen from Dawns Wrath as the 6s cd lines up with POTL. Tons of examples I won't bother going over.

• Templar definitely has mixed skill lines, a total of 5 non ult damage skills (not including morph choices). Aedric Spear is the DPS line, but only 2/5 are dps skills, Dawns Wrath has 2, Restoring Light has 1.
• Sorc has 9 non ult damage skills, if you really wanted to, you could slot a class skill in every single slot. Crystal Frag/Crystal Weapon are functionally different on many levels. Deadric Prey and Haunting Curse enable completely different playstyles. Sorcs have some of the best skill variety in the game right now and a part of that is because they were introduced over time in all 3 lines.
• Warden has 5, 2 are from their tank line. They really had to fight to get Arctic Blast as a viable damage skill. They launched with only 4 damage skills.
• Necro has 6, 1 is from their tanking line, but is objectively not good enough for damage dealers because it's meant as their % HP heal. Skull, Siphon, BB, and Skeleton all have their own list of issues.
• Arcanist has 5, but really 1 is a buff skill, 1 is a spammable overshadowed by their debuff aoe skill that executes and generates crux for some reason. They basically crutch on 3 damage abilities in all content and their is 0 choice in playstyle.

If you think about it realistically, why should the classes have an even split of 5 damage, 5 healing, and 5 tanking skills when there has always been an implied ratio in the game of at least 50% towards DPS. I mean ZOS doesn't even entirely think this way because they snuck in dps skills into the support lines for Warden/Necro.

• 50%/25%/25% = 4 man dungeons have 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 damage dealers.
• 66%/16%/16% = 12 man trials usually have 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 damage dealers.
• 50%/25%/25% = Sets come in Stam DD (med), Mag DD (light), Healer (light), Tank (heavy).

I'm not saying you need to ignore support roles entirely, they're important, but what I am saying is they don't need nearly as much real estate in the class kit.

The one part that makes the new design work a little better for Necro and Arcanist (not Warden) is that they have their own unique mechanics that bind all skill lines together. Corpses for Necro and Crux for Arcanist.

ItsNotLiving

MashmalloMan wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

I actually don't want this, I think it's a mistake they've ran with for way too long. Yeah, it's easy to understand for newer players, but it's made the newer classes feel very restrictive; lacking variety in their damage kit because they have bunch of unnecessary healer/tank/utility morphs that could easily be combined into 1. There's always a winning morph that overshadows the other.

Warden as an example, I could easily see 3 damage skills be introduced from 1 of the morphs on Nature's Grasp (gap closer), Healing Seed (aoe dot), and Frozen Gate (aoe spammable) while keeping the original skill identity's alive. Like what are even some of these morphs meant for? Expansive Frost Cloak vs Ice Fortress, Expansive is next to useless and extremely niche. Ice Fortress still shares its Major Resolve in a smaller radius.

The original design introduces some fun passive synergies as well. NB's get Major Resolve from their spammable being in Shadow instead of Assassination. Sorc's get 10% health return from their spammable being in Dark Magic instead of Storm Calling. Templars get better ult gen from Dawns Wrath as the 6s cd lines up with POTL. Tons of examples I won't bother going over.

• Templar definitely has mixed skill lines, a total of 5 non ult damage skills (not including morph choices). Aedric Spear is the DPS line, but only 2/5 are dps skills, Dawns Wrath has 2, Restoring Light has 1.
• Sorc has 9 non ult damage skills, if you really wanted to, you could slot a class skill in every single slot. Crystal Frag/Crystal Weapon are functionally different on many levels. Deadric Prey and Haunting Curse enable completely different playstyles. Sorcs have some of the best skill variety in the game right now and a part of that is because they were introduced over time in all 3 lines.
• Warden has 5, 2 are from their tank line. They really had to fight to get Arctic Blast as a viable damage skill. They launched with only 4 damage skills.
• Necro has 6, 1 is from their tanking line, but is objectively not good enough for damage dealers because it's meant as their % HP heal. Skull, Siphon, BB, and Skeleton all have their own list of issues.
• Arcanist has 5, but really 1 is a buff skill, 1 is a spammable overshadowed by their debuff aoe skill that executes and generates crux for some reason. They basically crutch on 3 damage abilities in all content and their is 0 choice in playstyle.

If you think about it realistically, why should the classes have an even split of 5 damage, 5 healing, and 5 tanking skills when there has always been an implied ratio in the game of at least 50% towards DPS. I mean ZOS doesn't even entirely think this way because they snuck in dps skills into the support lines for Warden/Necro.

• 50%/25%/25% = 4 man dungeons have 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 damage dealers.
• 66%/16%/16% = 12 man trials usually have 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 damage dealers.
• 50%/25%/25% = Sets come in Stam DD (med), Mag DD (light), Healer (light), Tank (heavy).

I'm not saying you need to ignore support roles entirely, they're important, but what I am saying is they don't need nearly as much real estate in the class kit.

The one part that makes the new design work a little better for Necro and Arcanist (not Warden) is that they have their own unique mechanics that bind all skill lines together. Corpses for Necro and Crux for Arcanist.

Can speak for other classes but Warden has ONE good solid damage skill and it takes 9 seconds to go off from cast the rest are mediocre DoTs that have smaller radius than melee range or take two casts to actually be meaningful. Don’t even get me started on the bird.

JerBearESO

KaosWarMonk wrote: »

All the class skill lines should be available and you can have any 3 active at any one time.

The original class setups can be there for players who don't want to make their own.

Just like every other TES game.

Oh yes, give Templar beam to NBs in PvP

Trejgon

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

Can only speak on Sorcerer since that is the class where I am familiar enough with class skills... it would be fairly difficult without uprooting established sorcerer kit.

Like if we take current sorc skill lines, and designate one role to one skill line, you upfront have two candidates for dps lines (Stormcalling and Daedric summoning) that would be problematic to convert to other roles. Trying to force stormcalling into being tank would make very little sense, and trying to force daedric summoning into any single role would require tearing out a big chunk of what the line is about.

So any way you could try to force those 3 skill lines to have one skill line being about specific role in that team, would result in decent chunk of class users to be upset about the result. Very iffy ground there.

Araneae6537

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

I strongly disagree and think this division rather lazy and lame, and suits Warden the worst. In my opinion, it’s much more interesting to have different morphs of a skill serve different functions. Many of Warden’s morphs are wasted mostly being magicka versus stamina. More ice skills should have both primarily defensive and offensive variants to fulfill the ice mage fantasy and I’d love to see more done with the nature magic skill line, including roots to entangle enemies and apply a bleed (a common ability for enemy NPCs) and maybe a vine for pulling, as some examples.

ItsNotLiving

Araneae6537 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

I strongly disagree and think this division rather lazy and lame, and suits Warden the worst. In my opinion, it’s much more interesting to have different morphs of a skill serve different functions. Many of Warden’s morphs are wasted mostly being magicka versus stamina. More ice skills should have both primarily defensive and offensive variants to fulfill the ice mage fantasy and I’d love to see more done with the nature magic skill line, including roots to entangle enemies and apply a bleed (a common ability for enemy NPCs) and maybe a vine for pulling, as some examples.

Agree wholeheartedly, ESO is interesting because each class fulfills a variety of normal RPG functions. Dragonkight being your basic warrior or a fire mage, Templar being a cleric or a paladin, Sorcerer being a summoner, a classic mage, or a speedy martial guy, and so on, but warden should be tackling a Druid, a frost mage, and the ranger archetype and it fails at all of them except the frost mage at the moment and the new way classes are built is a main culprit.

Minstrel9806

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

I strongly disagree and think this division rather lazy and lame, and suits Warden the worst. In my opinion, it’s much more interesting to have different morphs of a skill serve different functions. Many of Warden’s morphs are wasted mostly being magicka versus stamina. More ice skills should have both primarily defensive and offensive variants to fulfill the ice mage fantasy and I’d love to see more done with the nature magic skill line, including roots to entangle enemies and apply a bleed (a common ability for enemy NPCs) and maybe a vine for pulling, as some examples.

Agree wholeheartedly, ESO is interesting because each class fulfills a variety of normal RPG functions. Dragonkight being your basic warrior or a fire mage, Templar being a cleric or a paladin, Sorcerer being a summoner, a classic mage, or a speedy martial guy, and so on, but warden should be tackling a Druid, a frost mage, and the ranger archetype and it fails at all of them except the frost mage at the moment and the new way classes are built is a main culprit.

Is it tho? Is DK really a basic warrior? Both the stamina and magicka skills make me feel like i'm playing a mage either way.
As far as i'm concerned ESO lacks a real warrior class, granted it wouldn't really work cause of the weapon skill lines being available to anyone

ItsNotLiving

Minstrel9806 wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Most recent dlc classes (Warden, Necromancer, Arcanist) have their skill lines split amongst dps, tank and healer roles.
Other than templar, the older classes (Dragon Knight, Sorc and Nightblade) do not have this although the Nightblade has had enough changes to be viable as a healer.
It would be nice to have these classes updated this way.

I strongly disagree and think this division rather lazy and lame, and suits Warden the worst. In my opinion, it’s much more interesting to have different morphs of a skill serve different functions. Many of Warden’s morphs are wasted mostly being magicka versus stamina. More ice skills should have both primarily defensive and offensive variants to fulfill the ice mage fantasy and I’d love to see more done with the nature magic skill line, including roots to entangle enemies and apply a bleed (a common ability for enemy NPCs) and maybe a vine for pulling, as some examples.

Agree wholeheartedly, ESO is interesting because each class fulfills a variety of normal RPG functions. Dragonkight being your basic warrior or a fire mage, Templar being a cleric or a paladin, Sorcerer being a summoner, a classic mage, or a speedy martial guy, and so on, but warden should be tackling a Druid, a frost mage, and the ranger archetype and it fails at all of them except the frost mage at the moment and the new way classes are built is a main culprit.

Is it tho? Is DK really a basic warrior? Both the stamina and magicka skills make me feel like i'm playing a mage either way.
As far as i'm concerned ESO lacks a real warrior class, granted it wouldn't really work cause of the weapon skill lines being available to anyone

Stamina DK used to be pre hybridization with hybridization there’s never going to be a real warrior because magicka class heals will always out perform Rally.

peacenote

ADarklore wrote: »

I believe they talked about making some changes that were something similar to Arcanist's crux system to all classes... so I do believe some class design changes may be headed our way. However, this scares me more than excites me as ZOS doesn't have the greatest track record for making good changes to class skills.

Oh, I hadn't heard that but I 100% agree with you.

Also, to OP, I think saying "all class skills" is way too dramatic. There are a lot of things I love about the class identity we have right now, thought it has been a bit watered down over the years, in the name of performance and hybridization and to make room for more classes and revitalize some skill lines and address complaints about some classes not being able to do some roles effectively. Nevertheless, I don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater.

MashmalloMan

ADarklore wrote: »

I believe they talked about making some changes that were something similar to Arcanist's crux system to all classes... so I do believe some class design changes may be headed our way. However, this scares me more than excites me as ZOS doesn't have the greatest track record for making good changes to class skills.

Do you have a reference for this? I haven't heard this comment from them anywhere. I consider it good news and easily fixable:

• Necro has corpses, lean into this a little more. They're suppose to be dot focused (elementalist), but that just isn't true right now. It could easily be fixed though with some damage kit reworks.
• Arcanist has crux, this is really good...Although the dynamic of Cephaliarch's Flail replacing their spammable makes 0 sense. Crutching on 3 damage skills for all content has put all other classes in a weird state where they can't come close to the ease of use or aoe dps for minimal effort. Compare Flail to Whirling Blades. It has 7.7% more damage, 10% less cost, debuffs 20s for a unique +5% damage taken, heals 8% stronger than 1 tick of Resolving Vigor, Immobilizes for 3s, and generates 1 crux... all the while having the same execute scaling. Only downside is a minimal 0.3s cast time, when other "spammables" require 0.8s.
• Warden has chilled. Great, although stam has nothing.. they should have a bleed passive added. I'd also like to see a nerf to bear, but a bonus to pet damage added to a flies morph to offer a no pet vs pet playstyle similar to Sorcs.
• DK has burning/poisoned and ult gen. Perfectly designed imo, wouldn't change a thing.
• Sorc has nothing notable besides pet vs no pet which is handled poorly via Daedric Prey and Haunting Curse.. 5% physical/shock damage is negligible and only effects 60% of their kit. I hope they give Sorc a % status effect chance to physical/shock which maybe deals aoe damage, then convert the remaining 40% of the kit to physical/shock instead of magic damage.
• Templar has nothing notable, like nothing even close. Very boring class design imo, what even is a stamplar, if not a poor mans magplar? They should receive a combo type system like Arcanist since there is no obvious elemental affinity assigned to "holy magic" beyond the basic "magic" type we're stuck with.
• NB doesn't have anything, but they have unique playstyle elements like stealth, health cost skills, and reduced dodge roll cost coupled with Grim Focus as their bread/butter. Adding something like +10-20% monster damage done to Mark Target would improve pve, without touching pvp, and solidify them as the single target dps king as they should be. If we're being "funny", their mechanic is to be OP and easy to use lately with 6 passive effects from Soul Harvest, Shadowy Disguise, Grim Focus, Shadow Barrier, Concealed Weapon, and now Siphoning Attacks.

GrizzlyTank

What this game needs is class morphs for weapons including magica morphs for "physical" weapons and stam morps for staff.

mmtaniac

Off course, but redisinging Nightblade is priority other classes can wait few years.

Nerouyn

aliceaje wrote: »

The difference is that this is an MMORPG. You pick a class during creation. This class is fixed, and can't be changed.

There are numerous classelss MMOs. Unfortunately few have been hugely successful but most class-based MMOs have also fizzled.

In the classless section, Eve Online is one of the most popular, long-lasting and successful MMOs ever released.