How to fix PVP in one fell swoop.

wazzz56 · February 9

lol, ok, well good luck then.. I guess

Pixiepumpkin · February 9

wazzz56 wrote: »

lol, ok, well good luck then.. I guess

There is ZERO a person, you, me, ZOS, god or anyone can do when you die in 1 or 2 seconds from a stun.

ZERO

The only thing you can do, is spam break free. Correct? Now what happens when you die before your character breaks free? What else can you do?

The answer can not be "run more resist" when I am at the amount I am. The answer can not be run more health" when I am at the amount I am. Crit resist MIGHT help some, but when you are giving that much power to a player, little is going to change the outcome.

And like I said, he was shreading everyone in the BG, not just me, not just my wife, EVERYONE. In fact, there was a guy in the previous match that was shreading people and in this match he was on my team. HE was getting 1 shot, he left the BG.

There is more going on here than "my build" or anyone elses build. When something is this out of place, my lack of stamina regen is not the problem.

Major_Toughness · February 10

NBs are insanely good at killing baby seals but against anyone with experience they're going to see your burst coming a mile off, even if you are in stealth.

SandandStars · February 10

if u get yourself around 40k+ resistance, and 34k+ health, even a very skilled (&op, let’s be honest) nb shouldn’t be able to take you down THAT quickly.

The usual combo is incap w/stun, merciless, spam concealed weapon.

Even with 40k resistance, I’ve had merciless hit for 20k by some players. It’s annoying af, and completely out of alignment with any other class’s dmg, but if you’re sitting above 30k health at the beginning of the combo, you should have time to react and heal up/counter.

Just don’t waste your resources trying to use inner light or flare to try to keep them out of cloak, use a detect pot.

I commiserate w/your frustration Pixie, it is annoying to have to tailor so much of your build + detect pots just to be able to deal with one class.

Galeriano · February 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

No one should be getting 3 shot inside of 2 seconds with 37k armor and 30k health.

Why not? How else would You expect for that setup to die? By slowly loosing health for 2 minutes? Burst combos are the most common way to take down opponents and nobody should feel safe just because he have X amount of resistances. If 37k resistances would be granting immunity to burst combos everyone would be running with that amount. Resist alone won't cut it if rest of the things ain't there.

Your crit resist is pretty low it's basic 20% so average nb with 70-90% crit DMG will hit for additional 50-70% with critical hit on You. Even with Your 37k resists people in PvP reach like 15-20k penetration so You're left only with like 25-30% dmg reduction. Any class made for a burst dmg could take You down in 3 seconds with properly executed combo at that point.

I also assume You're not really good at dealing with stuns quickly enough because that nb must've add merciless to his combos and if You would be good at quick break free+dodge You would avoid it. Your low stam and stam regen make You vulnerable because if You're not at atleast 60% of Your max stam when getting stunned You won't be able to perform break free+dodge. And after doing it once You are very likely to not have stamina to do it again.

Pixiepumpkin · February 11

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

No one should be getting 3 shot inside of 2 seconds with 37k armor and 30k health.

Why not? How else would You expect for that setup to die? By slowly loosing health for 2 minutes? Burst combos are the most common way to take down opponents and nobody should feel safe just because he have X amount of resistances.

Player agency. No player should have so much burst that they do not allow the other player to react. This has always been the issue with stealth classes and why stealth classes are best used for control out of stealth, not burst.

Approaching this from a development perspective. You simply can not allow one player to troll another player in game with 1 shot combos, not in an mmorpg, not unless every class has the same easy set up ability (like an FPS).

I am coming at this from a game design perspective, not an in game perspective.

Galeriano wrote: »

If 37k resistances would be granting immunity to burst combos everyone would be running with that amount. Resist alone won't cut it if rest of the things ain't there.

Which is why we are in a "tank" meta today, too much burst from some classes like I posted in the OP.

Galeriano wrote: »

Your crit resist is pretty low it's basic 20% so average nb with 70-90% crit DMG will hit for additional 50-70% with critical hit on You. Even with Your 37k resists people in PvP reach like 15-20k penetration so You're left only with like 25-30% dmg reduction. Any class made for a burst dmg could take You down in 3 seconds with properly executed combo at that point.

No class should be made with that kind of burst, that is the point (go back to game design 101, player agency)

Galeriano wrote: »

I also assume You're not really good at dealing with stuns quickly enough because that nb must've add merciless to his combos and if You would be good at quick break free+dodge You would avoid it

I was spamming break free. I died inside the stun before break free worked, and yes I have break free keybound to a single key that I have been using for 20 years as my "trinket", I am quite adept at using it.

Galeriano wrote: »

. Your low stam and stam regen make You vulnerable because if You're not at atleast 60% of Your max stam when getting stunned You won't be able to perform break free+dodge. And after doing it once You are very likely to not have stamina to do it again.

Irrelevant when I die inside of the stun while spamming break free. I already covered this in this thread. Please go back and read my previous posts.

Galeriano · February 11

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

No one should be getting 3 shot inside of 2 seconds with 37k armor and 30k health.

Why not? How else would You expect for that setup to die? By slowly loosing health for 2 minutes? Burst combos are the most common way to take down opponents and nobody should feel safe just because he have X amount of resistances.

Player agency. No player should have so much burst that they do not allow the other player to react. This has always been the issue with stealth classes and why stealth classes are best used for control out of stealth, not burst.

Approaching this from a development perspective. You simply can not allow one player to troll another player in game with 1 shot combos, not in an mmorpg, not unless every class has the same easy set up ability (like an FPS).

I am coming at this from a game design perspective, not an in game perspective.

Galeriano wrote: »

If 37k resistances would be granting immunity to burst combos everyone would be running with that amount. Resist alone won't cut it if rest of the things ain't there.

Which is why we are in a "tank" meta today, too much burst from some classes like I posted in the OP.

Galeriano wrote: »

Your crit resist is pretty low it's basic 20% so average nb with 70-90% crit DMG will hit for additional 50-70% with critical hit on You. Even with Your 37k resists people in PvP reach like 15-20k penetration so You're left only with like 25-30% dmg reduction. Any class made for a burst dmg could take You down in 3 seconds with properly executed combo at that point.

No class should be made with that kind of burst, that is the point (go back to game design 101, player agency)

Galeriano wrote: »

I also assume You're not really good at dealing with stuns quickly enough because that nb must've add merciless to his combos and if You would be good at quick break free+dodge You would avoid it

I was spamming break free. I died inside the stun before break free worked, and yes I have break free keybound to a single key that I have been using for 20 years as my "trinket", I am quite adept at using it.

Galeriano wrote: »

. Your low stam and stam regen make You vulnerable because if You're not at atleast 60% of Your max stam when getting stunned You won't be able to perform break free+dodge. And after doing it once You are very likely to not have stamina to do it again.

Irrelevant when I die inside of the stun while spamming break free. I already covered this in this thread. Please go back and read my previous posts.

But You can react to every burst combo in the game. If You are expecriend and skilled enough to do so.

Every class can create one shot combo. it take skill and practice to both perform it and to avoid it reliably.

We are in tank meta like 7 years now. People don;t like to die and developer gave them lots of tools to do so.

Almost every class have that kind of burst when played properly. Nightblade just requires less things to align.

12k stam and 700 stam regen is a death sentence in PvP. With stats so low You will often find Yourself in a scenario where You don't have enough stamina to break free.

You can spam break free as much as You wan't. As I already said with so low stam and stam regen You will often not have enough stamina to break free. Fact that You spam break free button means nothing when Your resaources responsible for breaking free are so low and You don't even have a weapon that could restore them with heavy attack.

Bottom line is that if You die to a burst combo occasionally than well it happens but if one player can target You and take You down easily one time after another with the same burst combo without breaking sweat than it's completly on You and Your lack of experience in dealing with such threats. Somehow other players don't die to a nb every time he tries to land a combo on them and they often have 10-15k less resistances than You.

To avoid being taken down so easily You need two things. Make better setup with better stat distribution and more importantly practice PvP more. Judging on what You said earlier than this player that killed You had over 60 kills in that match it's kinda obvious that he was a experienced player on a new character and overall MMR in the match was pretty low. So it was more about difference in experience levels rather than setups and game balance.

Pixiepumpkin · February 11

Galeriano wrote: »

But You can react to every burst combo in the game. If You are expecriend and skilled enough to do so.

No, no you can not.
You can not even see, nor prepare for stealth one shot combos. I already explained this, and I have the backing of countless class balance Devs behind me as evidence of stealth PvP class design being more about control than damage.

No one, not a living soul can stay alive from a one shot attack if it happens inside of a global cool down. Latency, human reaction time and global cooldowns prevent this. Which is why one shot combos can not be given to stealth classes.

Galeriano wrote: »

Every class can create one shot combo. it take skill and practice to both perform it and to avoid it reliably.

The difference is the player still has some form of agency, you can see the enemy approaching. This is not the case when a class opens up from stealth.

Galeriano wrote: »

We are in tank meta like 7 years now. People don;t like to die and developer gave them lots of tools to do so.

Except there is not a tool in game that can stop a one shot stealth combo. Potions only last so long, and spamming inner light will drain your resources.

Galeriano wrote: »

Almost every class have that kind of burst when played properly. Nightblade just requires less things to align.

I have never been hit as hard by any class as I get from night blades. They are broken

Galeriano wrote: »

12k stam and 700 stam regen is a death sentence in PvP. With stats so low You will often find Yourself in a scenario where You don't have enough stamina to break free.

This has already been explained, about 3 or 4 times now in this thread. No amount of stamina or regen is going to keep me alive as I die inside of one earth second of time. I am already spamming breakfree (with full stamina) and dying before I can do anything else.

Galeriano wrote: »

You can spam break free as much as You wan't. As I already said with so low stam and stam regen You will often not have enough stamina to break free. Fact that You spam break free button means nothing when Your resaources responsible for breaking free are so low.

No. It's not due to not having stamina, it's due to latency. I am at full stamina when this happens.

Galeriano wrote: »

Bottom line is that if You die to a burst combo occasionally than well it happens but if one player can target You and take You down easily one time after another with the same burst combo without breaking sweat than it's completly on You and Your lack of experience in dealing with such threats. Somehow other players don't die to a nb every time he tries to land a combo on them and they often have 10-15k less resistances than You.

This is not about me, my skill or anything else except that nighblades are broken, and the only folks who say they are not are the very same nightblades everyone complains about.

Galeriano wrote: »

To avoid being taken down so easily You need two things. Make better setup with better stat distribution and more importantly practice PvP more.

I have been pvping for longer than many ESO players have bee alive.

There are countless complaints about night blades in PvP.....and yet you assert those folks are the issue, not the class.

...

Galeriano · February 11

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

But You can react to every burst combo in the game. If You are expecriend and skilled enough to do so.

No, no you can not.
You can not even see, nor prepare for stealth one shot combos. I already explained this, and I have the backing of countless class balance Devs behind me as evidence of stealth PvP class design being more about control than damage.

No one, not a living soul can stay alive from a one shot attack if it happens inside of a global cool down. Latency, human reaction time and global cooldowns prevent this. Which is why one shot combos can not be given to stealth classes.

Galeriano wrote: »

Every class can create one shot combo. it take skill and practice to both perform it and to avoid it reliably.

The difference is the player still has some form of agency, you can see the enemy approaching. This is not the case when a class opens up from stealth.

Galeriano wrote: »

We are in tank meta like 7 years now. People don;t like to die and developer gave them lots of tools to do so.

Except there is not a tool in game that can stop a one shot stealth combo. Potions only last so long, and spamming inner light will drain your resources.

Galeriano wrote: »

Almost every class have that kind of burst when played properly. Nightblade just requires less things to align.

I have never been hit as hard by any class as I get from night blades. They are broken

Galeriano wrote: »

12k stam and 700 stam regen is a death sentence in PvP. With stats so low You will often find Yourself in a scenario where You don't have enough stamina to break free.

This has already been explained, about 3 or 4 times now in this thread. No amount of stamina or regen is going to keep me alive as I die inside of one earth second of time. I am already spamming breakfree (with full stamina) and dying before I can do anything else.

Galeriano wrote: »

You can spam break free as much as You wan't. As I already said with so low stam and stam regen You will often not have enough stamina to break free. Fact that You spam break free button means nothing when Your resaources responsible for breaking free are so low.

No. It's not due to not having stamina, it's due to latency. I am at full stamina when this happens.

Galeriano wrote: »

Bottom line is that if You die to a burst combo occasionally than well it happens but if one player can target You and take You down easily one time after another with the same burst combo without breaking sweat than it's completly on You and Your lack of experience in dealing with such threats. Somehow other players don't die to a nb every time he tries to land a combo on them and they often have 10-15k less resistances than You.

This is not about me, my skill or anything else except that nighblades are broken, and the only folks who say they are not are the very same nightblades everyone complains about.

Galeriano wrote: »

To avoid being taken down so easily You need two things. Make better setup with better stat distribution and more importantly practice PvP more.

I have been pvping for longer than many ESO players have bee alive.

There are countless complaints about night blades in PvP.....and yet you assert those folks are the issue, not the class.

...

Yes, You can. You still can hear it and sounds of nightblade burst abilities are very distinct. And there is a difference between a one shot and a combo that took 2-3 seconds to perform. You would need to provide more data on what excatly killed You but as long as there was merciless as part of that combo than Yes You could avoid it since merciless have a travel time designed specifically to give people with good enough reaction time a chance to avoid it.

Many people can survive that. Me and many people I know definietly can do it. I can even do it with lag very often. As long as there is single nightblade attempting a meele gank on You while You're fully buffed and at high HP level there is a high chance You are able to avoid his gank attempt when playing and reacting properly. That requires experience though. Also You were saying earlier about 2-3 seconds that it took this nb to kill people and now You're suddenly saying about 1GCD combo when 1 GCD lasts one second. You also seem to not fully understand GCDs for things like break free and dodge roll. They work separately from other GCD. Me personally I can for example break free use heal and dodge roll all before nightblade is landing 2nd attack is his combo. But to get to the point where I can do it reliably I needed to play lots of PvP.

This is why nightblade is the only class that was not given delayed burst ability basically disabling him prom performing whole combo within 1 GCD especially when in meele. This is also a reason why nightblade is the only class without undodgable burst ability. He can only suprise You with first attack but he can't combine it into a burst combo in a way other classes can. This is also why main nb burst ability have such a big tooltip but also a travel time. If someone was taking You down so many times in a BG than saying that his attacks were unexpected sounds wierd. After 2nd or 3rd attempt You should be more than prepared for next attempts.

There are tools that allow to survive that combo. Good reaction time in primary tool for that. Other things are dodges, break free, sources of CC immunity, block. Detections are not even that much needed but can also help. In a BG specifically You know from the get go who You will be facing so it shouldn't be a suprise for You that a nightblade attacked You when You could see that You have nightbalde in enemy team before match even started so You should be prepared for gank attempts. It's wierd that You are concerned about Your magicka pool when using inner light when You came to a BG with 12k stam and 700 stam regen. Making that stat better could help You way more than spamming inner light.

Based on the fact that this nb had 60+ kills I assume You're new to the PvP since it must've been low MMR match so You havn't seen lot of experienced players yet. They can create quick burst combos on almost every class.

12k stam and 700 stam regen will definietly not help You to survive either. If break free consumes 40% of Your stam on a low stam regen build than no amount of resistances will save You from being taken down with a single cvombo at some point. And 1 second of earth time is still plenty of time to react. You would need to take 30k+ dmg in like a half of a second to not have time to react. Difference between half a second and full second is massive and performing full 30k dmg combo on a nb in half a second is impossible.

If You have bad ping and can't react on time than that's on You. I also have bad ping and often die because of that. It happens. I have hard time beliving that with 12k stam and 700 stam regen You are always at full stamina when someone is stunning You. That is simply mathematically impossible. You won't be even at full stamina when You get stunned 2nd time after 7 seconds CC immune from 1st stun ends because break free costs 5k and You restore 700 stam per 2 seconds so You spend 5k and restore only 2-3k. And that is assuming that You wouldn't be using any dodge, block, sprint etc. Math ain't mathing here. Sooner or later You will not have stamina to break free.

It is mainly about You. Your level of experience plays major role in how You are surviving gank attempts from nightblades. Somehow I can play sorc with same HP and 10-12k resistances less than You and nightblades are not taking me down left and right in BGs and I am playing in high MMR. I have many nb fanboys that will be spending whole BGs trying to gank me when I am on sorc. They will be sometimes following me in hide for half of a match looking for opportunity to gank me and somehow I can still hold my ground and survive majority of their attempts while also turning on them and taking them down most of the time. It is all about personal skill level and amount of experience in PvP.

Your amount of game playtime in other titles is not very significant. Even Your amount of playtyime in ESO is partianlly not important if You havn't been spending it on mastering Your craft in PvP. And even if You've spend lot of time mastering Your craft in ESO PvP it will still very often boil down to personall skill differences between You and Your opponent. Some people are just more talented than others. Especially with age our capabilities drop down so actually playing for longer than some players are alive is a negative factor because it suggest reaching an age gap where capabilities in gaming start to drop. I know from my own experience that I am not as good as I was 10 years ago.

Yes there is many concers about nightblade You cand find me being very critical towards current state of nightblade in many threads. That being said dying to a nb combo does not always mean that You died because nb is broken. From informations You provided there are more important factors that contributed to Your demise in that BG match. You are just using unoptimised setup that lacks few key elements in it and You've meet way more experienced player. There could be only one outcome of that encounter no matter what class he was playing.

Pixiepumpkin · February 11

1. I know how to pvp, please stop asserting that I do not.
2. There is nothing anyone can do when dying inside of 1 second, and with high ping 2 or 3 seconds.
3. I was not dying to merciless, I was dying to arterial burst, hitting me for 13k each time, back to back. Three attacks happened inside of 2 to 3 seconds. With full stamina, I am spamming break free and I die, no time to heal, dodge, shield or anything.

And I watch nightblades consistantly blow people up in battlegrounds with 40 kills+

When something is that much of an outlier, its not the players that are the problem, its the over powered/over tuned class.

moo_2021 · February 11

Do you have combat metrics log from that NB? For research purpose...

It sounds like very high pen plus high critical damage squash build. Maybe he or she use some vampire skill to lower health to below 50%, so that critical strikes are guaranteed? In that case there would be no investment on critical rating, only critical damage? And the stun must work or he'd end up dead himself.

to make it tanky, perhaps high HP, keep health at 49% and keep shield up? that plus 15% mitigation from undeath, and no execute can work yet.

olsborg · February 11

nerf undeath passive from vampire, hard, there alot of pvp is now fixed

Galeriano · February 11

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

1. I know how to pvp, please stop asserting that I do not.
2. There is nothing anyone can do when dying inside of 1 second, and with high ping 2 or 3 seconds.
3. I was not dying to merciless, I was dying to arterial burst, hitting me for 13k each time, back to back. Three attacks happened inside of 2 to 3 seconds. With full stamina, I am spamming break free and I die, no time to heal, dodge, shield or anything.

And I watch nightblades consistantly blow people up in battlegrounds with 40 kills+

When something is that much of an outlier, its not the players that are the problem, its the over powered/over tuned class.

1. That is Your personal opinion. Seeing content of Your previous comments I have a different opinion so let's agree to disagree
2. There is plenty You can do in 1 second let alone 2-3 seconds. I gave You specific example of what can be done in 1 second (break free+heal+dodge). Even with lag as long as it's not some 300+ ping You still can do a lot in 2-3 seconds. And if You have ping higher than that than well it's not devs fault. You said Yourself in other thread that You moved overseas and refuse to switch to a server that You're currently closer to so yeah You will have connection issues.
3. So You died to a single ability spam. No combo just one button mashed for 2-3 seconds. Dying to it once or twice in a match I could understand but dying to it all the time in a BG where You are fully aware that specific person is using specific setup and not being able to do anything about it on a sorc is really not giving solid ground to this thread. You had 2 seconds to do anything after 1st cast of it landed on You. Enemy was at low HP while using it because he had to be in order to get hits that high consistantly. And how low MMR had to be in this match for that person to get 60 kills. Arterial burst gankers in BGs are one of the easiest targets to deal with. Yeah occasionally they will get people down especially if these people are occupied with fighting someone else but come on, 60 kills. He was farming You all at that point. It's scary to think what a more well rounded PvP setup would do in that match.

You must be playing different game than me because while it is possible to see nightblade getting 40+ kills it's not happening consistantly even in low MMR. And quite frankly You can see basically any class getting 40+ kills in BGs it's not something nb specific. Last time I went to BGs on arcanist with beam which You were claiming to be so mediocre in other thread I got 64 kills and 0 deaths.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

moo_2021 wrote: »

Do you have combat metrics log from that NB? For research purpose...

It sounds like very high pen plus high critical damage squash build. Maybe he or she use some vampire skill to lower health to below 50%, so that critical strikes are guaranteed? In that case there would be no investment on critical rating, only critical damage? And the stun must work or he'd end up dead himself.

to make it tanky, perhaps high HP, keep health at 49% and keep shield up? that plus 15% mitigation from undeath, and no execute can work yet.

I think that is what he was doing, but never the less a one shot mechanic like that should simply not exist. Its no fun for the opposing player, no cat and mouse, no counterplay. Its just opener stun, slash dead inside of 2 seconds. For anyone with high ping, its a death sentance over and over.

FlopsyPrince · February 12

It is amazing how many basically say "PvP is just great in ESO!" when so many are unhappy.

How many other players do you think will stay active in PvP if getting whacked is so easy, even for the "baby seals" some like to note? You want people to enjoy it, not despise it and do other things. At least they shouldn't be effectively excluded if they suck.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

Galeriano wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

1. I know how to pvp, please stop asserting that I do not.
2. There is nothing anyone can do when dying inside of 1 second, and with high ping 2 or 3 seconds.
3. I was not dying to merciless, I was dying to arterial burst, hitting me for 13k each time, back to back. Three attacks happened inside of 2 to 3 seconds. With full stamina, I am spamming break free and I die, no time to heal, dodge, shield or anything.

And I watch nightblades consistantly blow people up in battlegrounds with 40 kills+

When something is that much of an outlier, its not the players that are the problem, its the over powered/over tuned class.

1. That is Your personal opinion. Seeing content of Your previous comments I have a different opinion so let's agree to disagree

Your opinon is flawed because no one, not you, not anyone on these forums can make an educated opinion based on one encounter....and encounter I might add that would have not changed if I made every change you suggested. 5000 crit resist would not have changed because the nightblade used Simmering Frenzy with Arterial Burst which is a guaranteed crit if they are below 50% health. No amount of crit resist would help with this, but you know what would? Resistance which I had more than plenty of.

Which is why I said in my OP that no one should be able to open up with a one shot combo against someon with that amount of health and resistance.

Galeriano wrote: »

There is plenty You can do in 1 second let alone 2-3 seconds. I gave You specific example of what can be done in 1 second (break free+heal+dodge).

Except that break free is not even landing inside of 2 seconds. This is what you are missing, again high ping (which is out of my control) is the factor you leave out every time. You post as if you play on a LAN at ZOS headquarters, not everyone gets instant reaction to their skills in this game. This is why oakensoul is popular with people who have high ping, because bar swapping is not reliable.

So, no, there is nothing I can do in that time to recover. The game did not take into consideration ping and other net code factors when they designed the game. This is proven by not having a global cooldown eliminating animation cancelling/weaving.

WOW did it. SWTOR did it. ESO did not do it.

Galeriano wrote: »

Even with lag as long as it's not some 300+ ping You still can do a lot in 2-3 seconds. And if You have ping higher than that than well it's not devs fault. You said Yourself in other thread that You moved overseas and refuse to switch to a server that You're currently closer to so yeah You will have connection issues.

It is the devs fault becasue they refuse to transfer accounts. You can not honestly ask someone to take the 3000 dollars they have spent on this game and throw it away becasue they had to move.

And yes my ping is often well over 300.

Galeriano wrote: »

6. So You died to a single ability spam. No combo just one button mashed for 2-3 seconds. Dying to it once or twice in a match I could understand but dying to it all the time in a BG where You are fully aware that specific person is using specific setup and not being able to do anything about it on a sorc is really not giving solid ground to this thread.

Again, you are missing the crucial point. THEY ARE STEALTH. I cant see them coming. Even using magelight, the second it went down, guy was back on top 2 shotting anyone in the arena. There is no preparing for the encounter when the person is stealth. Potions have a CD, mage light/inner light have short durations (and even pros say not to spam it because you will be OOM, at even a greater risk...to instead have a tankier build...which I did).

Galeriano wrote: »

You had 2 seconds to do anything after 1st cast of it landed on You. Enemy was at low HP while using it because he had to be in order to get hits that high consistantly. And how low MMR had to be in this match for that person to get 60 kills.

No, the first 2 seconds is me spamming break free to get out of the stun, the 2-3 second is me spamming heal or a shield to stay alive, only to be dead with in the next .5 second.

Galeriano wrote: »

Aretherial burst gankers in BGs are one of the easiest targets to deal with. Yeah occasionally they will get people down especially if these people are occupied with fighting someone else but come on, 60 kills. He was farming You all at that point. It's scary to think what a more well rounded PvP setup would do in that match.

Not occasionally. The guy had over 60 kills. I was not the only one having issues.

Galeriano wrote: »

You must be playing different game than me because while it is possible to see nightblade getting 40+ kills it's not happening consistantly even in low MMR. And quite frankly You can see basically any class getting 40+ kills in BGs it's not something nb specific. Last time I went to BGs on arcanist with beam which You were claiming to be so mediocre in other thread I got 64 kills and 0 deaths.

I play in high MMR.

Ohh and ya, magicka arcanist ARE not as good as you have suggested.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8043967#Comment_8043967

Freilauftomate · February 12

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

5000 crit resist would not have changed because the nightblade used Simmering Frenzy with Arterial Burst which is a guaranteed crit if they are below 50% health. No amount of crit resist would help with this, but you know what would? Resistance which I had more than plenty of.

You might want to read up on how crit resist works. It lowers the crit damage, not the chance.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Again, you are missing the crucial point. THEY ARE STEALTH. I cant see them coming. Even using magelight, the second it went down, guy was back on top 2 shotting anyone in the arena. There is no preparing for the encounter when the person is stealth. Potions have a CD, mage light/inner light have short durations (and even pros say not to spam it because you will be OOM, at even a greater risk...to instead have a tankier build...which I did).

If your enemy is wearing balorgh, combined with a bit of penetration, skills that lower your resistances and a focus on crit damage, then your 30k resist with almost no crit resist is worthless for you. And there are a lot more ways to prepare against stealth players, gankers, bombers etc. than just a few skills and set items...

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Except that break free is not even landing inside of 2 seconds. This is what you are missing, again high ping (which is out of my control) is the factor you leave out every time.

Maybe you should have told us about your high ping from the start? PvP is about burst damage in the right moment. PvP players are not target dummies or PvE bosses... If it takes over 2 seconds for you to break free (maybe because of empty stamina, maybe because of performance issues) then every single class can kill you with a well timed stun and burst. Unless you are a very very tanky tank with all the cp and sets for surviving even the worst performance. But you are playing noCP bgs for some reason... No change to the game will help you with that problem, not without making PvP slow and boring. There's a reason why so many people keep asking for better performance.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

It is the devs fault becasue they refuse to transfer accounts. You can not honestly ask someone to take the 3000 dollars they have spent on this game and throw it away becasue they had to move.

I agree 100%.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

1. This is a game and meant to be fun for all customers.

Is every part of the game meant to be fun for all customers? I am not sure if that's possible. Is a vet hardmode trial fun for everyone? Or the card game? Or housing? Or farming flowers? Or the guild traders? Or fashion? Or questing? Powerleveling? ... It depends on your preferences, doesn't it.

PvP can be at least a little fun for everyone, if you accept that dying is part of the game and you don't take it too seriously. And some players come better prepared for some fights than others. I am sure you would do better against gankers if you tried playing one for a bit. They are fairly predictable (like ballgroups, tower runners etc.) and very easy to kill if you catch them in the right moment.

Pixiepumpkin · February 12

Freilauftomate wrote: »

You might want to read up on how crit resist works. It lowers the crit damage, not the chance.

That is what I thought it did, but a poster somewhere above me said otherwise, so I thought "ok, so maybe I am wrong" and made the post your replied to. Thank you for the clarification.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

If your enemy is wearing balorgh, combined with a bit of penetration, skills that lower your resistances and a focus on crit damage, then your 30k resist with almost no crit resist is worthless for you. And there are a lot more ways to prepare against stealth players, gankers, bombers etc. than just a few skills and set items...

That is what I expect he was wearing, and why I went in on a character with a lot of resist (my GF was queuing and kept getting killed by the same player in every match, I wanted to see what was up so I queued in with her and we eventually came across him).

I am a designer by trade. I see a funamental issue in PVP when one player has complete control over another, in fact it goes against game design 101 regarding player agency. Its also ridiculous to expect an entire community to adapt to those 1 shot builds. In my observations and experiences, other game companies solve this by removing the abilty for stealth classes to one shot. But because its common place here, I see a real issue. Simply, it might be fun for the ganker, but its not fun at all for the other player.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

Maybe you should have told us about your high ping from the start?

I did somewhere, I thought I said it in this thread, I might be wrong.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

PvP is about burst damage in the right moment. PvP players are not target dummies or PvE bosses... If it takes over 2 seconds for you to break free (maybe because of empty stamina, maybe because of performance issues) then every single class can kill you with a well timed stun and burst.

I get killed often by other classes as fast, but I can see them coming at least.
I am guessing PVP is just not going to work for me anymore.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

Unless you are a very very tanky tank with all the cp and sets for surviving even the worst performance. But you are playing noCP bgs for some reason... No change to the game will help you with that problem, not without making PvP slow and boring. There's a reason why so many people keep asking for better performance.

Wife and I tried Cyrodiil, but we spent more time running around than doing anything, and trying to get into a group required comms, which we are against. That is why we do BG's.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

Is every part of the game meant to be fun for all customers? I am not sure if that's possible. Is a vet hardmode trial fun for everyone? Or the card game? Or housing? Or farming flowers? Or the guild traders? Or fashion? Or questing? Powerleveling? ... It depends on your preferences, doesn't it.

PvP can be at least a little fun for everyone, if you accept that dying is part of the game and you don't take it too seriously. And some players come better prepared for some fights than others. I am sure you would do better against gankers if you tried playing one for a bit. They are fairly predictable (like ballgroups, tower runners etc.) and very easy to kill if you catch them in the right moment.

My point here ties back to a comment up top and I iterated on this in a previous post, but I don't think people understand what I am talking about from a psychological perspective.

People are like water, they take the path of least resistance. Meaning, in PVP if someone can 1 shot you, they will be back to 1 shot you multiple times throguh the engagement.

That, is not fun in anyway shape or form for most people. No one likes to be the persistant punching bag.

This is why World of Warcraft had the honor system in vanilla close to 20 years ago. The more you killed the same player, the less honor you got (honor was the "currency").

I would suggest ESO do the same, except their BG design is flawed (PvPvP has not worked since DAOC, I wish people would let it go) the 4v4v4 ensures small scale skirmishes where as in WOW for example, you can be on a 40 person team with only one other enemy who also has 40 people. Its easier for squishie characters to mix in there and push some buttons (have some fun).

I could go on, but your commentary pretty much validates that there is no reason for me to engage in PVP in this game.

Thank you for the mature, well written post.

Freilauftomate · February 12

I am not sure what kinds of games you are playing and designing, but almost every PvP game i ever played had snipers, gankers or other forms of high risk high damage builds in it. As long as they have to sacrifice survivability etc., and have to hide and wait for their moment to strike, i think this playstyle has the same right to exist as all the others. No matter if it's a "one shot build" or a bomber.

ESO PvP was designed to be a group game. Massive battles in the big alliance war in Cyrodiil. Hundreds of players and 24 player groups. You can buff each other to be stronger and more tanky. Your friends can heal you when you need it. (For example when you get stuck in a stun.) You can help each other out and focus on specific tasks. Like someone putting up a ram, while someone else is using flare, while someone else is using siege shield, another one is purging, healing, giving speed buffs, killing the guards, negating enemy negates, while a sneaky ganker is guarding your camp/ burning enemy camps... It would be impossible to do all of that on your own. The ram doesn't even work with only 1 or two players standing in it. You can't look at this game without reminding yourself that it's a group game. Even if you are an overpowered Rambo/youtuber/streamer/genius.

Almost all problems can be solved better in a group. You get ganked? No problem, someone will revive you. We even have a champion point and a set for faster revive. And let's not forget about the Necro Ulti that can resurrect up to 3 allies at once. Your whole group gets zerged? You can revive in a camp and try again. Your alliance gets zerged down all day? Form a ballgroup and farm the zerg. Ballgroups are a problem? Bomb and gank their players with some friends to shake things up. Gankers and bombers become a problem? Start using more detecting abilities and pay extra attention in situations where they might want to hit you. Dying doesn't necessarily mean you did something wrong, you can never feel 100% safe in a warzone.

Now you could try to change the whole game to make it fit better for solo players, but i don't think that's possible without sacrificing the group feeling in the big war, and messing up the entire game. Solo players will just keep asking for changes, until playing in a group doesn't make any sense anymore. Unfortunately ESO has already changed way too much. Group size has been reduced to 12, max population (players allowed in Cyrodiil at the same time) keeps shrinking and reaching a point where the whole concept of a big war is starting to crumble. There are barely any guilds and groups left and not much going on on the map anymore. But that's not the fault of the concept, it's a consequence of performance issues and bugs.

Battlegrounds came 3 years (?) after ESO was released, and i think it was a big mistake to release (and keep) Bgs in this unfinished state. You can't have the big alliance war in a room of 12 players... I find it very strange to have Bg weekends, because almost no PvP player i know likes to play them. Maybe they are already working on updating Bgs and will give us more options to make it more playable for solo players and smaller groups. Who knows.

You said you don't want to play in groups, so you miss out on a lot of what ESO has to offer.

One big problem with ESO is that it doesn't really give you all the information you need to be successful in PvP. You have to find the info somewhere else, or let someone show you. If you join a guild to play (and train) with others, you might be surprised by how much you didn't know already. Even the best players can always learn something new. (Like dealing with gankers.) I wouldn't give up on PvP if i were you. It might be different than other games, but it can be extremely entertaining and rewarding. When it works. (I got kicked from the game 10 times last week, and i am starting to have bigger performance issues again...)

wazzz56 · February 13

@Pixiepumpkin what class is this you are playing anyway? I saw a reference to mag Arcanist above and was curious.

Necrotech_Master · February 13

last night i was in cyro and a sorc basically 1 tapped me using crystal weapon + overload light attack and had their weapon enchant proc

all of that in 1 hit was around 16k dmg which was not from stealth and 75% of my max hp in dmg (i sit about 27k with food on a NB running maybe 14k resist, i know im squishy lol)

and my first thought when i saw that was "very clever way of combining those skills"

the amount of times i got ganked last night? 0

smee_z · February 13

Invest more on HP.

Bushido2513 · February 13

@Pixiepumpkin

The game definitely needs more balance and nbs do have a high amount of damage and healing. I would like to see them reigned in a bit one way or another.

With that being said most players with a good build and reaction time should be able to survive a NB encounter. If your having connection issues or other technical difficulties that's its own thing unfortunately.

So I can't say it needs to be removed from the game because there is counterplay. Most if not all classes with a decent build can block, roll dodge, shield, heal, etc through the damage. Better option is to be able to use offense as defense but that's another story as well.

Also I've just been catching up on the thread so I may have missed something but regarding your battlegrounds story, it's pretty normal to see a NB and even some other classes sometimes just shredding players in a big but usually if you look at their group the number of deaths is pretty high and so there basically running around with no coordination feeding kill counts.

You can always feel free to post a clip of what you're seeing but usually in my experience if you watch your own gameplay you'll see where you could have done something different in most cases.

Also while you can be built to take a hit from a NB it's not hard at all to have useable damage in that same build.

Galeriano · February 13

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Your opinon is flawed because no one, not you, not anyone on these forums can make an educated opinion based on one encounter....and encounter I might add that would have not changed if I made every change you suggested. 5000 crit resist would not have changed because the nightblade used Simmering Frenzy with Arterial Burst which is a guaranteed crit if they are below 50% health. No amount of crit resist would help with this, but you know what would? Resistance which I had more than plenty of.

Me and many other people with enough game experience can easily make an educated opinion based on what You're posting.

Like for example Your claim about 5k crit resists having zero influence on the outcome of this fight. It clearly suggest You are not fully aware how crit resists work which contradicts Your previous claim of knowing how to PvP. Knowing how crit resist work is a basic PvP knowledge. You said later that somebody mislead You in that thread by suggesting it works differently but if someone can do this than it means You still aren't 100% sure what crit resist does and I checked and nobody in this thread was making claims which would suggest crit resists works differently than it does. For the record 5k crit resist could give You more damage reduction against that specific arterial burst nb than 37k resistances due to his guaranteed crit chance on arterial burst and possibile high penetration.

Your 30k HP in considered bare minimum in PvP for most of the builds right now, it's nothing special. 37k resistances can be drastically lowered by resistance debuffs and penetration buffs. I am reaching 20k+ penetration in some PvP setups without specifically building for high penetration, that nb could be reaching 25-30k. And as it turns out You didn't die to a one shot combo, You died to a continous spam of one ability.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Except that break free is not even landing inside of 2 seconds. This is what you are missing, again high ping (which is out of my control) is the factor you leave out every time. You post as if you play on a LAN at ZOS headquarters, not everyone gets instant reaction to their skills in this game. This is why oakensoul is popular with people who have high ping, because bar swapping is not reliable.

So, no, there is nothing I can do in that time to recover. The game did not take into consideration ping and other net code factors when they designed the game. This is proven by not having a global cooldown eliminating animation cancelling/weaving.

WOW did it. SWTOR did it. ESO did not do it.

If break free is notoriously not working for You for 2+ seconds than there can be 3 reasons for that. Either Your connection is horribly broken but the thing is with connection like that You wouldn't be even able to play overloand. Getting that lag occasionally can happen but if You claim that You had 2+ second delay after every stun that happened to You well than it sounds sketchy. I have also a terrible connection, I live far away from servers and and I am using LTE wireless internet. I am getting continous ability misses, desyncs and similar things but even with that I am able to do more or less ok and still not fall behind even in high MMR BGs. Reason number two can be slow reaction time. Our mind can de deceiving and we may think we react fast enough or that 2 seconds has passed but in reality what we think is not always what happens. That leaves us with reason number three, Your extremly low stamina and stamina regen caused You to be notoriously so low that You didn't have 5k stam to break free. Your claims that You were always at full stamina when being stunned sound to me very suspicious. 12k stam and 700 stam regen is way too low for a magsorc to be comfortable with and have full stamina all the time when needed.

I don't know what You're reffering to excatly when talking about "global cooldown eliminating animation".

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

It is the devs fault becasue they refuse to transfer accounts. You can not honestly ask someone to take the 3000 dollars they have spent on this game and throw it away becasue they had to move.

And yes my ping is often well over 300.

Not transfering accounts is ZoS's policy since day one. They did it only once when they released console versions and only because console launch was massively delayed. And it was a transfer from one platform to another when on PC our NA and EU versions are tied to the same account which creates some issues. ZoS is simply not transferring account inside PC megaservers and it's Your decision what will You do about it. If You want to continue playing ESO than You basically have 2 options. You can either create new character on a megaserver closer to You which will result with better ping or You can continue playing on megarserver that is further to You accepting that You will have worse ping because of that. Complaining won't change much, if ZoS havn't changed their policy for 10 long years it's highly unlikely they will do it now.

If Your ping is often well over 300 for longer periods of time I would reccomend You doing the same what I do in situations like that. I simply don't participate in PvP when my ping starts to be really bad. Sometimes it means not playing in PvP for few days or just doing daily BG. I will also stop doing PvP if I am starting to get noticable lag spikes happening for extended periods of time. It's annoying enough to play with frequent lag spikes and mediocre ping, there is no reason to do it when situation gets worse.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Again, you are missing the crucial point. THEY ARE STEALTH. I cant see them coming. Even using magelight, the second it went down, guy was back on top 2 shotting anyone in the arena. There is no preparing for the encounter when the person is stealth. Potions have a CD, mage light/inner light have short durations (and even pros say not to spam it because you will be OOM, at even a greater risk...to instead have a tankier build...which I did).

Yes they are but it doesn't mean You couldn't see them coming. When I say "see them coming" I talk in more of a figurative way. If You are aware that there is a arterial burst ganker in Your match than basically any time You don't see him on Your screen than You should expect that he will attack You. You don't need sources of detection to know that there is a ganker lurking around after he killed You 1st time. Sorc actually have few tools up in his sleave to prepare for gankers. One is ability called defensive rune. It applies a buff on You for 2 minutes that will stun the first person to attack You. Keeping it up all the time allows to stun that nb after his 1st attack screwing his gank attempt and giving You more time to react. Another usefull tool is skill called daedric minefield. It places 5 mines around You that will deal decent dmg and immobilize anyone who comes close to You. Arterial burst ganker seeing mines will think twice about ganking You because since he needs to be under 50% HP for arterial burst to critically hit he will have to be very cautious about reciving dmg instantly after coming close to You. There is plenty of active ways to prepare for a gank other than spaming detections. There are also passive methods to prepare for gankers like already mentioned crit resist. Due to the fact that this type of ganker is basically spamming critical hits, he is one of the setups most affected by decent levels of crit resist on enemy. And no You do not have a tankier build. There are people in this game with 40k+ HP, 35k+ reistances and 3,5k+ crit resist that also have multiple dmg reduction buffs and debuffs This are territories of being tankier. 30k HP 37k resists and 1,3k crit resist is lower than what You would see on a average everyday brawler.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

No, the first 2 seconds is me spamming break free to get out of the stun, the 2-3 second is me spamming heal or a shield to stay alive, only to be dead with in the next .5 second.

So You were still alive after breaking free and You still died? If yes than that's completly on You. You could streak away stunning that ganker in the procces while using some heal when at distance. You could do plenty of things to recover yet You let that ganker which was low on HP to continue spamming that one ability. You could also use dodge more reliably if Your max stam and stam regen would be higher.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

I play in high MMR.

There is zero chance that someone would get 63 kills in high MMR match. Literally ZERO. Getting 63 kills and 0 deaths means that nightblade was scoring a kill on average once every 14 seconds or faster if match ended before 15 minutes timer run out. He had to, on average, kill every enemy player in that match 8 times. People take time after death to respawn and come back into fight so that nightblade had to annihilate everyone and shred through players like through paper. You simply don't see things like that happening in high MMR. NEVER not even once. If someone is scoring 20+ kills in high MMR matches he is already getting dms with request to share build and give some tips because he is considered really good at what he is doing. Getting 63 kills in a high MMR match would be basically reaching a legend status and being considered a god of ESO PvP. And doing this on arterial burst ganker would be some godhood beyond understanding. Arterial burst gankers are one of the weakest setups in high MMR matches. They are often lucky if they get more kills than deaths. They need to heavily rely on others to drop enemy health down to even attempt gank. If they are being spotted or their gank fails or it takes more than 1-2 casts of arterial burst it usually means death "on sight" for them. They are pretty decent though at "sealclubbing", which is what happened in case of that match You were in. I think You don't even realize how beyond comprehension it would be for arterial burst ganker to get 63/0 score in a match against high MMR players. Even one high MMR player in enemy team already means that this won't happen.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Ohh and ya, magicka arcanist ARE not as good as you have suggested. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8043967#Comment_8043967

I don't know why You're linking trial results in a PvP related thread. Going by this logic nightblade which is main focus of this thread must be one of the weakest classes in PvP because in the same link You provided he always scores somwhere at the bottom. And when it comes to arcanist he is doing pretty well in PvP. If I remember correctly You were claiming that beam is weak in PvP yet here is my hybrid beam arcanist.

gariondavey · February 13

Beam is insane in pvp.
As for the last 20 or so comments, sorry pixie but galeranio is right.

SkaraMinoc · February 14

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

4. The entire BATTLEGROUND were getting nuked by this player, I think he had upwards of 63 kills in the match.

Those 1shot builds fall apart in high MMR battlegrounds. They would be killed as soon as they leave spawn.

Were you using stealth detection pots?

Bushido2513 · February 14

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

4. The entire BATTLEGROUND were getting nuked by this player, I think he had upwards of 63 kills in the match.

Those 1shot builds fall apart in high MMR battlegrounds. They would be killed as soon as they leave spawn.

Were you using stealth detection pots?

While 63 is a high number I will say that 1 shot builds can still be very effective in high MMR depending on composite of all teams.

The one doing the 1 shotting could be getting heals and buffs, the match type could be something where teams are just doing the objective or where the chaos ball is putting them in easy kill range etc.

I've been on both sides where team composition makes me able to get a ton of kills and also where the other team are now getting high kills, all while in high MMR

CrazyKitty · February 14

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah ill add to what others have said and that while i find being ganked is annoying, its literally no different than playing a first person shooter and being sniped

the only difference in here is that the "sniper" has to be right up on you to "knife" you instead of nuking your head from halfway across the map, so there is a lot more risk to them

ESO is not a first person shooter game. And it's just a fact that NB's are way over performing in PvP these days.

Bushido2513 · February 14

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah ill add to what others have said and that while i find being ganked is annoying, its literally no different than playing a first person shooter and being sniped

the only difference in here is that the "sniper" has to be right up on you to "knife" you instead of nuking your head from halfway across the map, so there is a lot more risk to them

ESO is not a first person shooter game. And it's just a fact that NB's are way over performing in PvP these days.

Then point was to say that high damage stealthed or otherwise hard to locate opponents is a thing often seen in games. Nb is more so off the mark because it can do these things and heal/ be defensive.

In a shooter when a sniper is found that's usually game over for that sniper.

In ESO if a NB gets busted they can just heal/escape or heal/go offensive. It's not balanced though also not something without some counterplay as long as you have decent connection.

Galeriano · February 14

Bushido2513 wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

4. The entire BATTLEGROUND were getting nuked by this player, I think he had upwards of 63 kills in the match.

Those 1shot builds fall apart in high MMR battlegrounds. They would be killed as soon as they leave spawn.

Were you using stealth detection pots?

While 63 is a high number I will say that 1 shot builds can still be very effective in high MMR depending on composite of all teams.

The one doing the 1 shotting could be getting heals and buffs, the match type could be something where teams are just doing the objective or where the chaos ball is putting them in easy kill range etc.

I've been on both sides where team composition makes me able to get a ton of kills and also where the other team are now getting high kills, all while in high MMR

Not arterial burst gankers though. Getting heals in their case is casuing them to loose their burst because they need to stay under 50% HP to have auto crit during arterial burst spam. And 63 kills in high MMR is not just a high number it's a number that is not achievable. It's low MMR exclusive value.