How to fix PVP in one fell swoop.

Pixiepumpkin · February 5

Remove nightblades from the game.

EDIT: What I really mean to say is remove 1 shot stealth combos.
No player running anything above 20k resist (I am at 34) should get literally globaled before they can react. This is video game design 101. Player agency, players need to be in control of their destiny and be allowed to affect the world, but not to the degree that one player has full agency over another player.

This is why people hate slows, stuns, or any form of CC in PVP, regardless of the game. Its because at its core, you lose agency when under these effects. Stealth should always be about control, not about DPS/burst. This is the only way to solve the stealth gameplay issue.

EDIT 2: When discussing balance issues in pvp, you must take into consideration that:
1. This is a game and meant to be fun for all customers.
2. That both players in an engagment have an equal or relatively "fair" engagement. This is why there is constant balancing going on, to get closer to this goal.
3. One shotting a player from stealth might be fun for you, but its not fun for the other player. A developer must be unbiased when class balancing and when in doing so, if they see data supporting one class/playstyle/weapon has complete agency over another, then adjustments need to be made.

Both parties should be given an equal chance at having fun, not just the stealth 1 shotting ganker.

xiphactinus · February 6

Its not just nightblades that can gank.

Pixiepumpkin · February 6

xiphactinus wrote: »

Its not just nightblades that can gank.

Which is why I edited the post minutes after I made it to say

"EDIT: What I really mean to say is remove 1 shot stealth combos."

xiphactinus · February 6

First off, No. There are all a ton of counters to stealth and 99% of my successful ganks are player error. If ending lethal combos are the aim then stop being a target. It really is as simple as that.

Pixiepumpkin · February 6

xiphactinus wrote: »

First off, No. There are all a ton of counters to stealth and 99% of my successful ganks are player error. If ending lethal combos are the aim then stop being a target. It really is as simple as that.

First off, No. There is literally nothing one can do except build a straight 45k armor 50k health build to counter one shot stealth combos. When I die inside of a stun while spamming break free, there is NO COUNTER to that and thus must be resolved.

You are thinking from your biased perspective, not how the other player feels getting 1 shot from nowhere. PVP should be cat and mouse, not a nuke button.

xiphactinus · February 6

Detect pots, Block, Roll dodge, Inner light. Just to name a few. I run about IC and Cyro with 20k hp and even I survive the odd counter gank now and again. When I started playing a magblade I was unaware of just how many hard counters we have that are 1, Damned effective and 2, 100% results in our death. The only reason I get ganked is because I allowed it. A simple hot, block and roll dodge can thwart most ganks. I have not one 40k hp tank build. My dk, sorc, blade all under 30k and I survive many attempts. Stop being a target, if you're getting slotted then its on you. I can one shot combo folk but only if they let me.

CrazyKitty · February 6

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Remove nightblades from the game.

EDIT: What I really mean to say is remove 1 shot stealth combos. No player running anything above 20k resist (I am at 34) should get literally globaled before they can react. This is video game design 101. Player agency, players need to be in control of their destiny and be allowed to affect the world, but not to the degree that one player has full agency over another player.

This is why people hate slows, stuns, or any form of CC in PVP, regardless of the game. Its because at its core, you lose agency when under these effects. Stealth should always be about control, not about DPS/burst. This is the only way to solve the stealth gameplay issue.

NB's are grossly OP in Cyrodiil right now, and they've always had the most diverse and one of the strongest tool sets of any class. So it's comical to see people complaining that NB is weak in any way, and especially now that NB is already s-tier and getting more buffs.

But what Cyrodiil needs more than anything is more server rack space and higher population caps. Sadly, ZOS is going the other way on that. This most recent reduction in the pop cap has really, really hurt Cyrodiil. It's just a toxic hot mess with people getting personal because it's the same die hards fighting each other all the time.

edward_frigidhands · February 7

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Remove nightblades from the game.

This is a bit hateful.

wazzz56 · February 7

There are plenty of counters to being ganked/nbs in general, this was noted in an above comment and there are some lengthy discussion posts about that very subject...and about cc's etc....what do you think a pvp environment would look like without them? Then snowball effect of things/builds that would become brokenly op without them and being cried about for nerfs would be overwhelming.

DrNukenstein · February 7

wazzz56 wrote: »

There are plenty of counters to being ganked/nbs in general, this was noted in an above comment and there are some lengthy discussion posts about that very subject...and about cc's etc....what do you think a pvp environment would look like without them? Then snowball effect of things/builds that would become brokenly op without them and being cried about for nerfs would be overwhelming.

It's true. Stealth one shots keep the squishies in line in ways that other playstyles can't. If it wasn't the stealth gankers, it would be the mag sorcs with 17k hp, 50k mag, and as much damage as they can fit in their build.

Freilauftomate · February 7

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Remove nightblades from the game.
[...] This is the only way to solve the stealth gameplay issue.

No, and please stop trying to remove things from this game! "The stealth gameplay" is not an "issue".

When a sniper hits you, you should be dead before you can hear a sound. You think real snipers send a warning letter to their targets and then need 3 headshots to kill someone?

And it's not like gankers and snipers can run into a zerg and just oneshot everyone in this game.

There are pros and cons to every playstyle, please stop trying to reduce ESO to naked fist fights. Thank you.

Necrotech_Master · February 7

yeah ill add to what others have said and that while i find being ganked is annoying, its literally no different than playing a first person shooter and being sniped

the only difference in here is that the "sniper" has to be right up on you to "knife" you instead of nuking your head from halfway across the map, so there is a lot more risk to them

SandandStars · February 8

So, nb is becoming an extremely popular class choice… what about an “NB ONLY” option for Cyro?

😁

Pixiepumpkin · February 8

Freilauftomate wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Remove nightblades from the game.
[...] This is the only way to solve the stealth gameplay issue.

No, and please stop trying to remove things from this game! "The stealth gameplay" is not an "issue".

I never said to remove "stealth gameplay" from the game. Go read what I said again.
The key concept/context here is that no player should be killed without the ability to react and dying in one second, inside of a stun to a stealh opener is exactly that. No one should be forced to run inner light and have it up 100% of the time to stop a 1 shot stealth attack.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

When a sniper hits you, you should be dead before you can hear a sound. You think real snipers send a warning letter to their targets and then need 3 headshots to kill someone?

Difference this is an MMORPG, not an FPS. The game mechanics are completely different. You are comparing apples to cheese.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

And it's not like gankers and snipers can run into a zerg and just oneshot everyone in this game.

That is illrelevant, because this is about player agency. I already explained that. If you are not aware of what this is, then research "how to make video games" either at your local education facility or you tube or whatever your chosen format is.

Freilauftomate wrote: »

There are pros and cons to every playstyle, please stop trying to reduce ESO to naked fist fights. Thank you.

And no playstyle should 100% take away a players ability to react. And in history, every time this has occured in any mmorpg, the stealth class who is stunlocking/1 shotting gets nerfed into oblivion, as they should.

Pixiepumpkin · February 8

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah ill add to what others have said and that while i find being ganked is annoying, its literally no different than playing a first person shooter and being sniped

the only difference in here is that the "sniper" has to be right up on you to "knife" you instead of nuking your head from halfway across the map, so there is a lot more risk to them

Difference this is an MMORPG, not an FPS. The game mechanics are completely different. You are comparing apples to cheese.

But also, in an FPS, you can 1 shot the sniper as well with assault or medic carbines.

xiphactinus · February 8

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Freilauftomate wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Remove nightblades from the game.
[...] This is the only way to solve the stealth gameplay issue.

No, and please stop trying to remove things from this game! "The stealth gameplay" is not an "issue".

I never said to remove "stealth gameplay" from the game. Go read what I said again.
The key concept/context here is that no player should be killed without the ability to react and dying in one second, inside of a stun to a stealh opener is exactly that. No one should be forced to run inner light and have it up 100% of the time to stop a 1 shot stealth attack.

So the player should take no responsibility for their own safety in a pvp zone generally populated by nightblades and others looking for an easy kill.

Necrotech_Master · February 8

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah ill add to what others have said and that while i find being ganked is annoying, its literally no different than playing a first person shooter and being sniped

the only difference in here is that the "sniper" has to be right up on you to "knife" you instead of nuking your head from halfway across the map, so there is a lot more risk to them

Difference this is an MMORPG, not an FPS. The game mechanics are completely different. You are comparing apples to cheese.

But also, in an FPS, you can 1 shot the sniper as well with assault or medic carbines.

actually no, there is not a lot of difference, the vast majority of gankers are actually very weak

been many a times ive countered the ganker and ended up killing them (mostly because of quick reaction time), theres only a few times i had no chance to react which again i see as something that takes a lot of skill, not a playstyle that should be eliminated

ive also countered bombers before too, getting a magnum shot off on them right before they are able to hit a lot of players (like a NB trying to use siphon ult), it interrupts the ult, knocks them down, and 9/10 times they ended up dead

gank builds are the squishiest builds in pvp and heavily rely on stealth, if you negate the stealth part or counter them before they can do their combo, they will drop like a fly

if your running a build of 35k+ max hp then its very unlikely most gankers will even try to target you

Pixiepumpkin · February 8

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

yeah ill add to what others have said and that while i find being ganked is annoying, its literally no different than playing a first person shooter and being sniped

the only difference in here is that the "sniper" has to be right up on you to "knife" you instead of nuking your head from halfway across the map, so there is a lot more risk to them

Difference this is an MMORPG, not an FPS. The game mechanics are completely different. You are comparing apples to cheese.

But also, in an FPS, you can 1 shot the sniper as well with assault or medic carbines.

actually no, there is not a lot of difference, the vast majority of gankers are actually very weak

been many a times ive countered the ganker and ended up killing them (mostly because of quick reaction time), theres only a few times i had no chance to react which again i see as something that takes a lot of skill, not a playstyle that should be eliminated

ive also countered bombers before too, getting a magnum shot off on them right before they are able to hit a lot of players (like a NB trying to use siphon ult), it interrupts the ult, knocks them down, and 9/10 times they ended up dead

gank builds are the squishiest builds in pvp and heavily rely on stealth, if you negate the stealth part or counter them before they can do their combo, they will drop like a fly

if your running a build of 35k+ max hp then its very unlikely most gankers will even try to target you

Look, you guys are missing the point. No one player should have "god mode" over another player, its called player agency.

You have to consider how the encounter plays out for both sides, remove your bias. Think like a developer not "I dont want my nightblade 1 shot cheese build removed". It might be fun for the ganker, but its nothing but frustration for the gankee.

Look, people are like water and that is they take the path of least resistance. Everyone in PVP, once they know they can global a certain target, they will literally harass that player the entire match because its an easy free kill. I have had matches where I was 1 shot by a stealth ganker every single time I left my area, magelight or not. The only option I had was to literally leave the match with a countdown timer.

Its one thing to see the guy who is hunting you the entire match coming your way, its another when they are stealthed.

And yes, I have a toon with 30k health and 37k armor and he was LITERALLY 3 shot inside of 2 seconds. When that happens, there is ZERO reason to play the game until these issues are resolved.

Necrotech_Master · February 8

i literally dont have a 1 shot NB cheese build, i sometimes even have problems killing other players because im using an unoptimized not quite meta build (i have some sets people might consider meta like rush of agony and plaguebreak) (some of my stats are not great, like i only have 17% crit chance unless NB passive procs, and my weapon dmg is ~3500)

i have way less armor (with buffs maybe 22k armor), and a little less health (27k) and i can still counter gank people because of quick reaction, other times i do basically get 1 shotted if im not paying attention or im already taking dmg from multiple sources

i dont usually play BGs, but a lot of the negative effects of pvp are amplified there because the enemy team only has 8 targets, if they figure out a weak link they know who to target first when coming up to an objective (hence why it is significantly more competitive than cyro)

cyro is not quite as bad because theres usually a whole field of targets

and yes 30k hp is kind of low in todays meta, people can hit with bow procs for 22k, 37k armor can easily be negated simply using a maxed out balorgh proc and some passive pen bonuses (maxed balorgh proc is 11.5k pen, 700 pen from cp (this wont apply in BGs), 3000 pen from maces + any additional debuffs if its taking more than 1 GCD to kill you (major breach is ~6000 armor reduction, minor breach ~3000 armor reduction), all of that alone is totaling effective pen of 24,200, leaving you with only about 13k armor)

13k armor is only giving you roughly 15% dmg mitigation, compared to 50% if the armor was in full effect

the most effective mitigations in cyro are actually flat mitigations (major/minor protection, undeath, blocking especially with heavy armor bonuses, etc) because the enemy cant negate those

WaywardArgonian · February 8

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

and yes 30k hp is kind of low in todays meta, people can hit with bow procs for 22k, 37k armor can easily be negated simply using a maxed out balorgh proc and some passive pen bonuses (maxed balorgh proc is 11.5k pen, 700 pen from cp (this wont apply in BGs), 3000 pen from maces + any additional debuffs if its taking more than 1 GCD to kill you (major breach is ~6000 armor reduction, minor breach ~3000 armor reduction), all of that alone is totaling effective pen of 24,200, leaving you with only about 13k armor)

Not to mention some gankers use Onslaught, which allows you to basically bypass armor for a limited amount of time.

But yeah, 30k health is not actually that much. The gankers I know usually name 32k as the cut-off mark of where they can reliably overwhelm someone before they know what's going on.

Pixiepumpkin · February 8

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i literally dont have a 1 shot NB cheese build, i sometimes even have problems killing other players because im using an unoptimized not quite meta build (i have some sets people might consider meta like rush of agony and plaguebreak) (some of my stats are not great, like i only have 17% crit chance unless NB passive procs, and my weapon dmg is ~3500)

I was referring to the cheese stealth builds as a whole, not you directly.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i have way less armor (with buffs maybe 22k armor), and a little less health (27k) and i can still counter gank people because of quick reaction, other times i do basically get 1 shotted if im not paying attention or im already taking dmg from multiple sources

I can't. There is literally nothing I can do when I die inside of 1 second. Literally nothing.
Let me put it this way. I am running, I am dead. It happens that fast. I start spamming break free (the only thing I can do) and die before anything happens. This happens CONSTANTLY, not just one, not just one occurance. Happens to my wife as well. In fact, its gotten REALLY bad this past week. So much we don't even engage anymore. There is no reason to. I want to push buttons as well, not just be a free kill to a cheese/broken build that needs adjusting.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

i dont usually play BGs, but a lot of the negative effects of pvp are amplified there because the enemy team only has 8 targets, if they figure out a weak link they know who to target first when coming up to an objective (hence why it is significantly more competitive than cyro)

We only play battlegrounds. But the point is that no one should have a hard counter, I mean that is literally video game design 101.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

cyro is not quite as bad because theres usually a whole field of targets

We do not go into Cyrodiil. Never found it fun. We tried it years ago, but being forced into comms to get into a group, was just unappealing.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

and yes 30k hp is kind of low in todays meta, people can hit with bow procs for 22k, 37k armor can easily be negated simply using a maxed out balorgh proc and some passive pen bonuses (maxed balorgh proc is 11.5k pen, 700 pen from cp (this wont apply in BGs), 3000 pen from maces + any additional debuffs if its taking more than 1 GCD to kill you (major breach is ~6000 armor reduction, minor breach ~3000 armor reduction), all of that alone is totaling effective pen of 24,200, leaving you with only about 13k armor)

13k armor is only giving you roughly 15% dmg mitigation, compared to 50% if the armor was in full effect

I understand this, but as you know everyone has to run a ton of armor in the current meta....except stealth 1 shot gankers. This is why I said in my OP that stealth gameplay should be about control for the team, not the hardest hitting DPS. Its never worked, in any game. Top burst stealth builds literally take all the fun out of pvp.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

the most effective mitigations in cyro are actually flat mitigations (major/minor protection, undeath, blocking especially with heavy armor bonuses, etc) because the enemy cant negate those

Like I said, we only do BG's.

EDIT: Here are my stats.No CP

Necrotech_Master · February 8

i usually prefer playing in cyro, but i play solo pretty much 95% of the time, i just go to where the fights are lol, you dont have to group or even use comms in a group

for my last statement about flat mitigations, that applies to all pvp really, not necessarily cyro

the other thing i noticed in your stats is your crit resist is a bit low too, rallying cry is a good thing to boost that up

i actually see very few gank builds in BGs when i do occasionally do them, majority of the builds i see there are super tanky, most gank builds usually get killed a lot too unless they happen to be really good

like i noted, im running maybe on avg half the armor you are, and its usually pretty rare someone can kill me in under 2 GCD unless they have a good combo, or i reacted too slowly (dodging)

ill actually enjoy siphoning strikes again with the new update, i might actually have some decent healing on my poor stamblade (my only real heals are vigor and dark cloak (yes i dont even use the stealth cloak lol))

cytex_uo · February 8

Agree 100%. personally remove cloak and invis pots from pvp. NO ONE SHOULD HIDE like scared little girls and one shot people, its dishonorable and trolling. which Trolling is supposed to be against ToS. All cloakers do is wait for the trolling opportunity to get their quick kill, usually interfering with a 1 on 1 honorable battle. I make myself weaker by ONLY carrying detect pots instead of tri pots, and even then sometimes they can heal and run before I can burst them. Won't even fight if they can't cloak. It would be embarrassing, but if they get that cloak off, and the perfect crit you end up losing. PVP should be about skill, and competition. Not oh im hiding, bam ur dead or bam I missed, back to hiding.

Also probably not the place to put this but will they EVERRRR FIX bg's and IC. there is no reason why the spawn points should not be 100% invuln. Trolls just sit up there and try to popshot u was you walk by. Again that is the very ESSENCE of trolling, and if for some reason the "t-bagging" can get you reported, why can't that trolling? In mem you get sorcs right above the flag, just mag dumping, and melee chars can't do anything about it.

moo_2021 · February 8

cytex_uo wrote: »

PVP should be about skill, and competition.

No thanks. Being a frequent loser like the majority, I have zero skill or any intention to show off. It's all about strategy, local superiority i.e. 4 gang up 1, finish off easy kills and sneak behind enemy line.

Cloaking NBs are rather annoying but that's it. Those who can one shot me would beat me in a fair fight anyway.

Freilauftomate · February 9

I am not sure if i want to stay in a conversation where the original post keeps changing so much. And i honestly have no idea whether i should be offended by your tone.

What i do know is that i appreciate ESO PvP (especially Cyrodiil) because of the many different playstyles and ways to play this game. They all have their place in the big Alliance War, and i enjoy playing most of them. In Cyrodiil. When the game works. And enough players are playing.

I don't play Battlegrounds very often, and i have no idea how this unfinished product even made it into this game. I thought you were talking about PvP in general.

Maybe it would be possible to add more options to Battlegrounds, like noCP campaign in Cyrodiil and different difficulties in dungeons and trials. Some players already agree to special rules when they duel each other (don't use stealth, don't play a tank, don't play specific sets and skills...). Maybe something like that would make the game more enjoyable for you? The new groupfinder would be an easy way to agree to specific rules before a match. And the game could allow, or not allow whatever you selected.

geonsocal · February 9

37k plus resistances...holy cow, that is a lot...

yes, you are right, you probably are doing something wrong, you should not be dying so easily...

there's a set i think that makes it now so you can not be stunned from stealth...maybe that's the gear for you...

also, stay hidden more if you are that squishy...IC is a bad place for squishy toons...1.3k resist may not be enough for you...

finally, just roll a dragonknight - no more ganking worries

Edit: i can't find the set name, i think it's either a mystic or monster piece...easier solution maybe, quickslot a health draught and keep you finger close to it when you out and about with enemies around...

Urzigurumash · February 9

^ Even when sDK was known as a bad class we beat NBs OW all the time, follow our old adage "tape down the block button".

Which is as it should be, gankers and tanklets both parts of a healthy ecosystem.

wazzz56 · February 9

@Pixiepumpkin IMHO I see issues with your crit rss, your max stam and your regens.... with those low stam and Regen numbers stunning you most likely leads to a kill. And that is not even getting into crit rss...blocking, Dodge rolling etc are all pretty good counters to a bursty nb (or any class) and stam management is kinda key for that

Pixiepumpkin · February 9

wazzz56 wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin IMHO I see issues with your crit rss, your max stam and your regens.... with those low stam and Regen numbers stunning you most likely leads to a kill. And that is not even getting into crit rss...blocking, Dodge rolling etc are all pretty good counters to a bursty nb (or any class) and stam management is kinda key for that

EDIT: Its a HA build. I queued up specifically on a tankier build because my wife was getting 1 shot by the same nightblade. We got into a match against him and he killed me in 2 seconds from steath with 3 attacks. That is why my regen etc are so low.

That aside, none of which affect my OP outside of crit resist.
No one should be getting 3 shot inside of 2 seconds with 37k armor and 30k health.

My stamina regen could be 30,000 or zero and the net result would be the same.

wazzz56 · February 9

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin IMHO I see issues with your crit rss, your max stam and your regens.... with those low stam and Regen numbers stunning you most likely leads to a kill. And that is not even getting into crit rss...blocking, Dodge rolling etc are all pretty good counters to a bursty nb (or any class) and stam management is kinda key for that

None of which affect my OP outside of crit resist.
No one should be getting 3 shot inside of 2 seconds with 37k armor and 30k health.

My stamina regen could be 30,000 or zero and the net result would be the same.

lol, ok, I tried offering some constructive criticism....but you seem dead set on your stance...but, maybe you should reevaluate your build or play style? And I am saying this genuinely......I run around with less armor and about the same HP in cyro,BGs, IC wherever, and I do not get bursted like that outside of an occasional instance where I am not paying attention/afk, buffs down and I don't react with a Dodge roll or blocking and healing etc. I am giving you advice from the standpoint of someone who has thousands of pvp hours in this game, you can write it off or take it, is what it is.

Pixiepumpkin · February 9

wazzz56 wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

wazzz56 wrote: »

@Pixiepumpkin IMHO I see issues with your crit rss, your max stam and your regens.... with those low stam and Regen numbers stunning you most likely leads to a kill. And that is not even getting into crit rss...blocking, Dodge rolling etc are all pretty good counters to a bursty nb (or any class) and stam management is kinda key for that

None of which affect my OP outside of crit resist.
No one should be getting 3 shot inside of 2 seconds with 37k armor and 30k health.

My stamina regen could be 30,000 or zero and the net result would be the same.

lol, ok, I tried offering some constructive criticism...

You are not listening to what I am saying. You are giving advice where it has no use.

1. I have 1728 hours on this character alone.
2. I was getting killed inside of 2 seconds to 3 hits by this player with the amount of armor/health I have. My wife was literally getting globaled in 1 second.
3. No amount of stamina regen is going to change this. Crit resit MIGHT, but I doubt it would do much as the 4th attack 1 second later would make up for the difference.
4. The entire BATTLEGROUND were getting nuked by this player, I think he had upwards of 63 kills in the match.

NONE of this has to do with my build.