Will we Templar players at least get the courtesy of a explanation why we have been ignored for u41?

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

We gotta remember: temp and blade are in opposite spots. Templar is still pretty solid in many pve situations (it still really needs work though in my opinion)

Templar is the only class not included in a mid-maxed raid composition…

So no I wouldn’t say “Templar is still pretty solid in many pve situations” but if a skill were to be reworked to give them a group buff that was unique to Templar giving their tank spec a purpose, or if there was another support damage dealer set added to the game that ONLY worked best on Templar similarly to ZenKosh on Dragonknight, EC on Necromancer, or MK/Spaulder on Sorcerer… then Templar would be in a great spot.

Still not the most fun class to play, but at least as far as PvE was concerned, if either of those changes or additions were made, the class would have purpose, and representation in every group, regardless of how niché the fight is.

I sympathize with Nightblade damage dealers but the solution is so simple it’s painful, all it needs is Major Vulnerability on Mark Target and Lotus Fan’s AoE DoT needs a higher value.

Yeah if by min max you mean the 20 odd score pushing teams then sure but factually they still see plenty of play in high level teams. Im on five different teams doing hms/trifectas. Every single team has a plar. Not one has a blade. Thats not really a good metric. Are they the best? Definitely not. Are they still effective. Yes. Are they more effective then a blade in almost all 12 man. 100%. If we are gonna talk tanks though they are basically the bottom of the bin. Cant even begin to recall the last time i did an hm trial with a templar tank.

Players that bring Templar to raid night can achieve higher results on several other classes, even though Templar is passable, it does not excel.

As far as Blade, I agree that DD and Tank Nightblade needs a buff, funny enough I just did a write-up on that very topic 2 hours before your post…

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/651567/pve-nightblade-purpose-2024

Healer Blade is extremely strong because of it’s synergy with RoJo, but it’s not a popular class fantasy where healing Templar is.

If you don’t have one in your group, suggest it to your healer mains and look at the difference in up-time for your Roaring Opportunist on raid nights, it’s night and day.

As far as your view on Templar tanking, spot on. I had hopes for them back when the change to Living Dark first occurred and the heal scaled with your Max Health, but ever since that got reversed, we’ve seen nothing.

I haven’t seen one in a 12-man since I brought one to a Halls of Fabrication HM years ago. whenever I’m tanking pugs, one of my go-to jokes is I threaten to swap to my Templar. 😂

Nilandia · January 31

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Yeah if by min max you mean the 20 odd score pushing teams then sure but factually they still see plenty of play in high level teams. Im on five different teams doing hms/trifectas. Every single team has a plar. Not one has a blade. Thats not really a good metric. Are they the best? Definitely not. Are they still effective. Yes. Are they more effective then a blade in almost all 12 man. 100%. If we are gonna talk tanks though they are basically the bottom of the bin. Cant even begin to recall the last time i did an hm trial with a templar tank.

Score pushing teams also have templars as DPS, depending on the content. At that level, everyone is highly specialized, and templar sometimes is needed to fill a particular role.

The top two team scores in Rockgrove this patch both have a templar DPS.

The #2 Aetherian Archive team score was formed for score pushing and has a templar. The same Discord server now is running a Kyne's Aegis score pushing group, and they explicitly slotted a templar. I'm in this Discord server and saw the recruitment post myself.

Those are just examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Templars may not be the most desired for all trials, but they most certainly have a place, even in score pushing.

merpins · January 31

Leia98 wrote: »

Nilandia wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

I’m sure a great player, regardless of their class, can force themselves into a group, but nowhere on any of those lists were an “execute dd” referenced, nor Templar.

People agree that Templar isn’t fun to play, and I can attest personally to the fact that it isn’t included in fully composed groups that are consistently hitting leaderboards, so what purpose does it have?

I went to ESOLogs to check for team scores. It's not a complete sample because not everyone is a part of a team or posts public logs, but it paints a decent picture. All scores are from the current patch.

21 of the top 25 team scores posted this patch in Sanity's Edge have at least 1 templar DPS, sometimes 2 https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/17#metric=score

15 of the top 25 team scores in Dreadsail Reef have at least 1 templar DPS https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/16#metric=score

11 of the top 25 team scores in Kyne's Aegis have at least 1 templar DPS https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/14#metric=score

12 of the top 25 team scores in Sunspire have at least 1 templar DPS https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/12#metric=score

15 of the top 25 team scores in Hel Ra Citadel have at least 1 templar DPS https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/2#metric=score

13 of the top 25 team scores in Aetherian Archive have at least 1 templar DPS https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/1#metric=score

Templars were rarer in Rockgrove, Cloudrest, Asylum Sanctorium, Halls of Fabrication, Maw of Lorkhaj, and Sanctum Ophidia. But they were still present even then. The top 2 scores in Rockgrove, for example, have a templar DPS.

Yes, arcanists are plentiful. They're currently having their moment in the sun. I have one myself that I bring to Rockgrove hard mode. But I also cleared Sanity's Edge hard mode on a templar, where I was the execute specialist. In the Discord servers I'm in, veteran hard mode PUG trial rosters will outright list a slot for templars.

So if you still believe templars have no place in PVE, I don't know what to tell you. That's by far not the case of my own experience.

Ofc templar dps is in a good spot atm, but supports are not. Templar tanks are literally one of the jokes of the community. Templar healers are lagging behind rn so yes, templar does need something to be a viable support

Agreed that templar support needs some love. But so does Templar dps. Templar DPS is held up by its execute phase now. You get most of your damage during execute, since plar gets the best execute in the game. Without it, the damage tanks. Damage is fine. But the way you get that damage isn't fun. Templar used to be fun.

Tyrant_Tim · January 31

I feel like people lose sight of that, @merpins.

This game is supposed to be fun, and when your class doesn’t feel fun to play, it ultimately doesn’t matter how well or not it performs.

Tyrant_Tim · February 1

Is anyone having fun with Templar right now?

Personally, it just feels dull, every class besides Warden and Templar have their own mini-games, and Power of the Light just doesn’t cut it as you passively fill it with damage using any of your other damage skills, just to get a not-so-impressive single-target explosion. It’s boring.

There’s no micro-management, we don’t have stack build-up, we don’t have skills that ramp in power after meeting condtitions, and the skills and passives that we do have feel vanilla.

Tyrant_Tim · February 2

I was wondering where this thread went, I find it funny how something like this gets buried, but if it were any other class, it would be at the top of Page #1 throughout the entire PTS cycle until it’s addressed.

Kind of like when Sun Shield lost its animation, nobody seemed to care, as it took an entire patch to get it back, imagine if it was Molten Whip, Hurricane, or Incapacitating Strike.

That would be a weekend Hotfix.

sneakymitchell · February 2

ElderSmitter wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@ElderSmitter, I love Templar.

My main is a Templar Nord. There is nothing I want more from ESO, than to have Templar tanking a sought after thing within the game.

Bringing attention to a problem is one thing, but I’ve an entire thread dedicated to helping provide potential solutions to the playstyle within this very forum subcategory…

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/639316/sun-shield-rework-when/p1

While I understand it might be frustrating to hear that your preferred playstyle is lacking, it does it a disservice to claim otherwise because perfectly fine options don’t receive attention, and man could Templar tank use some love.

No, I speak the truth. A Majority of Templar's Tanks and DPS do not know how to build a proper Templar. It is simple as that.

There are more than enough resources available that show peak performance of each class, from gear setups and parses to replicate, to ability loadout swapping per encounter and in depth support build videos…

https://youtu.be/-_KRs7UClQU?si=ShCLZr89FjOlvHTz
https://youtu.be/Pf217OBW1Lc?si=bMni_8_Ht3Z22Cn-
Just because something can be done, doesn’t mean it’s a great option. Every option should be in competition with each other if built properly and that isn’t the case, it doesn’t matter what you throw onto a Templar tank, it will NEVER compete with a Dragonknight or Necromancer.

Not until we have some reworked skills.

Also want to add that I promise that you don’t know some secret that everyone else is unaware of. ESO is a decade old, everything is played out and the end-game population has a grasp on how each and every minor change will throw a meta off, notice how many Nightblade healers are taking over for Templars, and how fast it happened.

Secret? lol Oh No Secrets. Just a basic understanding of my Build and how it works. Cheers!

I literally don’t give the point in the argument of secrets? It takes a lot of time to master a class in dps. You can make 1 bar build to help reduce the requirements of uptime on damage.

Vahndamme · February 3

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Is anyone having fun with Templar right now?

Personally, it just feels dull, every class besides Warden and Templar have their own mini-games, and Power of the Light just doesn’t cut it as you passively fill it with damage using any of your other damage skills, just to get a not-so-impressive single-target explosion. It’s boring.

There’s no micro-management, we don’t have stack build-up, we don’t have skills that ramp in power after meeting condtitions, and the skills and passives that we do have feel vanilla.

nobody is having fun on templar since the animation changed on jabs and it got a clown fiesta with all the changes... I swore by templar and still do but I just don't play it anymore atm. Crafting is all I do on it but I still see it as my "main" ... issue is, I just can't play it properly anymore cuz it's not as potent as any other class.. like PvP I'll just jump on my DK and have some fun there.. PvE I just Arcanist and have fun like that (though I've seen a generic rapid strikes build outperform beam? so not sure if it's still gonna be that much fun?) "give more complex builds room to thrive" or whatever they said.. basically just kill off class identity also.. The beam wasn't really an issue - having most of the power in one ability usually isn't an issue, it can be fun and can give class identity... it just shouldn't be so that that one ability is all you press... like long long time ago jabs was.. you could just spam jabs with good weave and get through all vet content.. basically what they changed in the HA builds also .. not make such easy stuff to easy to go through harder content.. but it should still be viable tbh.. I would love to see more power back to jabbing + some love to Pl / Potl (+ maybe make the passives more cohesive and useful??) I dno, maybe a whole overhaul is needed because there's too many dead skills tbh

Ps. Bring old jabs animations back

Galeriano · February 3

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Does arcanist DD provides group with some exquisite group support?

Because of Zena’s Empowering Disk, even after Arcanist’s damage gets nerfed, you will always have one in group for Minor Courage.

Galeriano wrote: »

Oh and just FYI 132k is not a top templar DPS on a dummy. There is a parse with 136k. It's actually pretty funny parse since it was made by bowplar who lately got world's best score i vAA

You found a higher Templar parse? Nice.
Here’s a higher Sorcerer one.

https://youtu.be/-RlMUFGtHhk?si=8_gy_GVrN9IvWrRn

If arcanist would loose it's position as DD You would seeing arcanist healer or tank providing minor courage rather than arcanist DD.

Nice, You've found a sorc parse that is basically equall to templar's parse if You substract overload cheese part. 142k minus 6k gives 136k. And if both are getting the same single target DPS than purely for DD purpose templar wins in real enviroment due to slightly better AoE and way better execute.

BlackHammer225 · February 3

BlackHammer225 wrote: »

Hi, I'm happy with the changes you guys are making for each class but not as a bias I feel like Templar was left out in the patch.

1. I'm looking to see more improvements in allowing the ability Backlash to deal the intended damage it should do in PvP. The current threshold that's in place is too high to reach the 200% damage increase on the ability please reduce it again so the ability doesn't feel weak.

2. Also, the Sunnder status effect is now better than the Power of Light ability the use of (POL) will quickly have less use because it applies minor breach but you don't get the 100 weapon and spell damage increase so players will opt-out for Purifying Light over POL.

Turtle_Bot · February 3

Getting back to the original topic.

Speaking from experience and being realistic about things, I highly doubt you will get a response.

U35 gutted sorcerer to the point it was a completely dead class in PvP and completely hard carried by heavy attack builds in PvE.

U36 came with 0 changes and 0 comments from the devs on that.

The first response sorcs got was right before U37 was announced where the team finally replied to a massive thread on sorcs and said that according to them, sorcerer was "fine" and "not in need of any changes", right before U37 brought a few small changes to sorcerer including the 2 things that made them playable at all in either PvP/PvE (hardened ward cap increase/scaling rework and atro buffing the full group instead of only half the group).

No-pet sorcerer has not existed since Elsweyr and has only been getting nerfs ever since then, until this very PTS cycle (5+ years).

All that is to say, don't give up the fight, it takes time, but you'll get there eventually. Keep pushing and things will eventually change. No-pet sorcerers are finally being talked about and given some new things this PTS cycle after not being mentioned or reworked AT ALL since pre-Elsweyr.

These changes still leave them 10% behind pet sorcs, but now no-pet sorcerers are actually nearly on par with the other classes (I've seen a 130k parse from a no-pet sorc on a super high end (dynamic/complicated) rotation), that could easily be brought up to the 133-135k average of classes with a small change to lightning splash to increase it's DPS for the caster.

P.s. I do think pet sorcs should be brought back in line as they are starting to creep up again, but that is an easy change to make by reducing the amount of bonus pet damage daedric prey grants to pets from 45% to 20-25%.

Anyway, fingers crossed for you guys, hope templars get the love they need, where they need it.

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Does arcanist DD provides group with some exquisite group support?

Because of Zena’s Empowering Disk, even after Arcanist’s damage gets nerfed, you will always have one in group for Minor Courage.

Galeriano wrote: »

Oh and just FYI 132k is not a top templar DPS on a dummy. There is a parse with 136k. It's actually pretty funny parse since it was made by bowplar who lately got world's best score i vAA

You found a higher Templar parse? Nice.
Here’s a higher Sorcerer one.

https://youtu.be/-RlMUFGtHhk?si=8_gy_GVrN9IvWrRn

If arcanist would loose it's position as DD You would seeing arcanist healer or tank providing minor courage rather than arcanist DD.

Nice, You've found a sorc parse that is basically equall to templar's parse if You substract overload cheese part. 142k minus 6k gives 136k. And if both are getting the same single target DPS than purely for DD purpose templar wins in real enviroment due to slightly better AoE and way better execute.

By that very logic, Sorcerer would have overtaken Templar as healer patches ago instead of Nightblade when they made Major Berserk group-wide from the atronach because they are the only source.

While I appreciate that you’re bumping this thread with your DD takes, Templar has zero cleave in execute where the entire Sorcerer rotation is kept up through Execute; including AoE Monkey, AoE Curse, AoE Stampede, AoE Hurricane, and the AoE explosion of the Atronach impact.

Also, if Templar execute was as impactful as others have tried to insinuate, people would build into it, and request Wrathsun Plars on trial rosters, where that is most definitely not the case.

That being said, Templar DD isn’t even the area that I believe the class needs the most work, I’ve stated that multiple times, throughout multiple threads.

Templar needs PvE group utility, and several skill morphs need to be redesigned completely to allow for Templar tanks to have their moment in the sun.

Galeriano · February 4

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

We gotta remember: temp and blade are in opposite spots. Templar is still pretty solid in many pve situations (it still really needs work though in my opinion)

Templar is the only class not included in a mid-maxed raid composition…

So no I wouldn’t say “Templar is still pretty solid in many pve situations” but if a skill were to be reworked to give them a group buff that was unique to Templar giving their tank spec a purpose, or if there was another support damage dealer set added to the game that ONLY worked best on Templar similarly to ZenKosh on Dragonknight, EC on Necromancer, or MK/Spaulder on Sorcerer… then Templar would be in a great spot.

Still not the most fun class to play, but at least as far as PvE was concerned, if either of those changes or additions were made, the class would have purpose, and representation in every group, regardless of how niché the fight is.

I sympathize with Nightblade damage dealers but the solution is so simple it’s painful, all it needs is Major Vulnerability on Mark Target and Lotus Fan’s AoE DoT needs a higher value.

That is actually not truth. Templar is included in highly optimised raid setups and he have a very specific purpose in them, which is being an executer. You will notice that in almost every trial atm in top score runs there is 1 or 2 templar DDs in team and I can assure You it's not a coincidence.

Some groups have figured out that bringing templar into their team will increase overall raid speed because boss fights are getting a bit faster while trash fights are not getting longer. It's happening because with the amount of damage that arcanists are doing and amount of arcanist DD in the team it's becoming barely any difference wheter You have one arcanist more. This is where templar comes in handy because when You have overall DPS covered by arcanists You can optimise it a little bit more by bringing templar that will speed up the execute phase on boss making overall time of boss fight few seconds faster that it would be with arcanist replacing that templar.

Major vulnerability on mark target is a horrible and completly unbalanced idea. It does not even guarantee nb to get a DD spot in trial seems it could be just used by nb healer and it highly diminishes necro existance.

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

@Galeriano, I’m not going to continue talking in circles with you about Templar, we are never going to agree on this topic, and I’m certainly not going to be called a liar…

Galeriano wrote: »

That is actually not truth.

…just to have you disregard everything that isn’t fitting into this narrative you’re pushing for Templar.

If you feel the class is fine make your own thread, and then ratio people who agree and disagree.

SaffronCitrusflower · February 4

My magic 8 ball says "ask again later".

Galeriano · February 4

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

@Galeriano, I’m not going to continue talking in circles with you about Templar, we are never going to agree on this topic, and I’m certainly not going to be called a liar.

Galeriano wrote: »

That is actually not truth.

This is me being nice, I won’t be insulted twice.

We don't need to agree on anything. There are still places like ESO logs website that have data showing certain class popularity at certain roles and You will find there that templar DD is basically as popular currently in HM trials as sorc DD is. If You don't like the way how templar is currently being played tthan You're free to have that opinion but let's not spread misinformation that templar is not included in min maxed compositions because that is simply not true.

Also just for the clarification, do I understand this corrent that me telling You that Your statement about templar is not truth is an insult to You?

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

Do me a favor, hit “/played” on your Templar.

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

Who’s spreading misinformation?

> https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards <

For Hel Ra, the two top teams had zero Templars. the highest score on PC/EU is lacking a Templar.
For Maw of Lorkhaj, the two top teams had zero Templars.
For Sunspire, the two top teams had zero Templars.
For Asylum Sanctorium, a trial where Templar used to be #1, PC/NA beat PC/EU without a group using Templar when EU had one.

For a necessary class, they sure were unnecessary in all four three and a half of those top scores.

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

Anyone know how to ignore a user on Mobile? 😂

Galeriano · February 4

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Who’s spreading misinformation?

> https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards <
For Hel Ra, the two top teams had zero Templars.

For Maw of Lorkhaj, the two top teams had zero Templars.

For Sunspire, the two top teams had zero Templars.

For Asylum Sanctorium, a trial where Templar used to be #1, PC/NA beat PC/EU without a group using Templar when EU had one.

For a necessary class, they sure were unnecessary in all four of those trials.

Last time I checked there was 12 trials in ESO.

Also You are kinda twisting the context of what was being said. You said quote "templar is the only class not included in a mid-maxed raid composition" which is not truth and the same data You're reffering to is supporting my claim.

Edit.
I double checked and informations You provided are not entirely corrent. Best team in Hel Ra have a templar DD.

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

4/12 3/12 trials don’t see the class. That’s 33.333% 25%, or 1/4th of all raiding.

Every trial should have every class in a fully optimal group. No exceptions.

Galeriano · February 4

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

4/12 trials don’t see the class. That’s 33.333%

Every trial should have every class in a fully optimal group. No exceptions.

3/12. Hel ra top team have a templar DD. And You also specifically excluded vAS 2nd best team just to fit You argument same as You included only top 2 teams in other trials.

Why not include atleast top 3 teams? If we do this that 11/12 trials have a templar in top scoring teams. Like I said previously quote "You will notice that in almost every trial atm in top score runs there is 1 or 2 templar DDs in team and I can assure You it's not a coincidence". I stil, stand by my words since You will in fact see a templar in almost every trial in top score runs and by top score runs I didn't mean just number 1 score.

Cloudrest · February 4

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

4/12 trials don’t see the class. That’s 33.333%

Every trial should have every class in a fully optimal group. No exceptions.

3/12. Hel ra top team have a templar DD. And You also specifically excluded vAS 2nd best team just to fit You argument same as You included only top 2 teams in other trials.

Why not include atleast top 3 teams? If we do this that 11/12 trials have a templar in top scoring teams. Like I said previously quote "You will notice that in almost every trial atm in top score runs there is 1 or 2 templar DDs in team and I can assure You it's not a coincidence". I stil, stand by my words since You will in fact see a templar in almost every trial in top score runs and by top score runs I didn't mean just number 1 score.

And yet you consistently ignore the counter argument that we Templar players don't find the power fantasy of the class revolving around beam, both in PvP and PvE, enjoyable. People have been asking for beam nerfs and more power to be shifted back into jabs/sweeps.. and for it to be easier to reach the 200% dmg modifier on Backlash in PvP.

Cloudrest · February 4

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Do me a favor, hit “/played” on your Templar.

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

Nice, @Cloudrest!

You’ve got almost as much time as I’ve played on all of my characters, just on your Templar.

I have another Templar with some more time but I think you still have another hundred, which I can’t really blame with the four year break I took from Morrowind to Waking Flames.

Hopefully the numbers we’ve provided give some perspective into how invested in the future of the class we are.

Vahndamme · February 4

Can you guys stop flexing your sausage and get on topic. Rly wish there was a downvote to remove these silly posts.

Tyrant_Tim · February 4

Vahndamme wrote: »

Can you guys… get on topic.

It’s impossible to stay on topic when you have people insisting you focus on something irrelevant.

Most people agree Templar isn’t fun to play right now, you have people with hundreds of days, real time, telling you Templar is the least fun it’s ever been and instead the conversation keeps getting pigeonholed into one of the class being completely fine by people that enjoy the niché they’ve created for themselves.

ZOS_Hadeostry · February 4

Greetings everyone,

As this thread has run its course and has evolved into something else, including some unnecessary back and forth. We always encourage sharing opinions, but we ask that they remain respectful when doing so.

Thank you for your understanding, and please keep the Community Rules in mind when posting on the forums.