Stop speedrunning in dungeons!

BejaProphet

Look, I don’t really care much. I don’t run normals ever. And that’s where the worst problem is. Second, I play a tank 9 out of 10 times. Fake tanks aren’t a problem. Im just a dude who thinks I have an idea that would work, and I know full well ZOS ain’t taking notes from a random guy on the forums. So I genuinely don’t care much.

But when the push back on my idea is that literally people saying generating a five piece set every 4 days year round is not fast enough. There is no way I’m taking that statement seriously. I just cant bring myself to pretend I heard a serious statement.

What are we saying? People need to be able to make a new five piece every 48 hours? 🤨. And that players NEED that? Not want it, but they actually need to do it. I can’t pretend that is a statement within the general vicinity of reason.

Ph1p

BejaProphet wrote: »

But when the push back on my idea is that literally people saying generating a five piece set every 4 days year round is not fast enough. There is no way I’m taking that statement seriously. I just cant bring myself to pretend I heard a serious statement.

What are we saying? People need to be able to make a new five piece every 48 hours? 🤨. And that players NEED that? Not want it, but they actually need to do it. I can’t pretend that is a statement within the general vicinity of reason.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I don't need to be able to buy 40 beers every single day of the year. But if I'm throwing a big party next week, please don't force me to go to the store multiple times, because I'm limited to purchasing 5 beers per day.

Maybe you personally never need or want to grind more than 30 transmutes in a single day. But many other people play differently and sometimes do want that. Again, not the entire year round, but every once in a while when making a new character, trying out a new role, testing a new PVP build, or moving to a different trial. Please try to put yourself in their shoes instead of ridiculing their case as outside "the general vicinity of reason". Or don't, this is an internet forum after all... can't be having with all this empathy and stuff

Daoin

a good exaple of how this will never change is the other day im in dungeon on tank so i want take out the mobs in a room which is not on way to boss so the dd's and healer leave me to it (think it was crypt of hearts I where you can go up the stairs or right) and run to the boss where they activate hm and are all killed so they try with no hm and are all killed a coup0le of times meanwhile im still chipping away at these mobs and mini becasue im in full tanking spec in another room so then they decide it would be quicker to actually kick the tank rather than take 1 minute to kill the things then the boss..also sometimes they are speedrunning when it would save a matter of minutes so i agree but it is just not going to change and keep putting it in forum wont change it either, this happens alot but luckily this time the kick came free from some kind of abuse in chat usually attached in situation like that. so we are still being kicked in random vets for not speed running even though group finder had a speed section to post your runs in. and all that is actually if your lucky enough to get a random dungeon rather than a pledge group on every character you want to try a random with. the better option to atleast alleviate some of the situations for randoms i think is to just remove any penalty for leaving groups you dont want to be in. for me the point of joining a random veteran dungeon is hopefully one day a good chance for the dungeon to actually be random and to play it with 1 tank 1 healer and 2 dd's. i dont care care about cp's abilty or sure bet clears

pelle412

universeman444 wrote: »

Yes, that's called being selfish. There are 3 other people in the group and maybe their parents should've taught them that the world doesn't revolve around them.

No argument there but telling people to behave doesn't work when it's their time vs yours. If appealing to people's respect and kindness worked, we'd have no crime.

BejaProphet

Ph1p wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

But when the push back on my idea is that literally people saying generating a five piece set every 4 days year round is not fast enough. There is no way I’m taking that statement seriously. I just cant bring myself to pretend I heard a serious statement.

What are we saying? People need to be able to make a new five piece every 48 hours? 🤨. And that players NEED that? Not want it, but they actually need to do it. I can’t pretend that is a statement within the general vicinity of reason.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I don't need to be able to buy 40 beers every single day of the year. But if I'm throwing a big party next week, please don't force me to go to the store multiple times, because I'm limited to purchasing 5 beers per day.

Maybe you personally never need or want to grind more than 30 transmutes in a single day. But many other people play differently and sometimes do want that. Again, not the entire year round, but every once in a while when making a new character, trying out a new role, testing a new PVP build, or moving to a different trial. Please try to put yourself in their shoes instead of ridiculing their case as outside "the general vicinity of reason". Or don't, this is an internet forum after all... can't be having with all this empathy and stuff

To be fair my suggestion doesn’t limit a player to 30 transmute. It only gives 30 for running kiddy dungeons. After that you can actually earn as many as you like through the pledge system. Where you will have to engage risk verses reward.

But more importantly: if you are saying you WANT to gain more than that from normal randoms. Then I don’t want to mock that opinion at all. You are expressing what you’d like to see. Your view is as valid as mine.

But the first push back I received was to suggest that trial guilds HAD to have the current system which can get you 120 or more a day for running the kiddy dungeons. THAT is what I’m rejecting. I’m rejecting that 120+ transmutes a day is “necessary” for the trial guilds to function. The only reason that would be necessary is from rediculous expectations from a trial leader, not the game. As long as your are not trying to sell me that silliness, then I completely respect your opinion. And I completely respect that you don’t like my suggestion. Perhaps my ideas are crappy. So I’m not failing to emphasize that somebody might have a different subjective opinion, rather I’m rejecting a objective truth claim that a trial guild must have this to function.

Edit note: Btw your analogy was flawed. The current system allows you to save up and buy in bulk no matter what rate you acquire crystals.

BejaProphet

And I’m a little baffled that the brokenness of this reward system is not obvious to everyone. Right now, if I do my pledge on vet dlc hard mode dungeon. Some of the hardest content in the game, and after working and working at it, finally I win…

5 transmute crystals.

Meanwhile another person speeds through a random normal and they get?…

10 transmute crystals.

Oh, and they did that 8 times in the time it took me to do the vet dlc hardmode.

So 80 crystals to 5 crystals.

Are we going to honestly pretend that’s a good design? Yes the keys are there but we all know the transmutes are the real reward.

The incentives punish the people who try hard things and reward the people who fake tank to skip queues and rush through dungeons. They do it BECAUSE the system rewards it. That’s not a good thing.

boi_anachronism_

BejaProphet wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Two moves would solve the dungeon problems.

1. Stop letting every alt get a first random dungeon of the day boost. Currently we get extra rewards for doing a first random dungeon. Then if you log onto a new character, you get it again. This causes people to try and run it with twelve different alts. If DD’s have a thirty minute wait time (or more) then that is 6+ hours of waiting per day. This is driving people to fake tank and rush dungeons both. It would be far better to tie first time rewards to each “role.” Not each character.

2. Simply let there be an option to accept a group without the “holy trinity” of tank, DD, healer when using group finder. A fake tank is choosing to not have a tank in exchange for faster queue time. So just give them that option! All the DD’s willing to rush with no tank will get in faster. This will relieve the incentive to fake tank AND ALSO lower the wait for DD’s who do want a tank and healer.

These two actions would solve most frustrations instantly.

I think you would get a massive backlash on the first one. Transmutes are rare as it is. Raiders and pvpers on every level utilize them constantly by sheer necessity, especially pve supports. I can tell you from experience that they have a literal closet of sets to do their jobs effectively since group comp and buffs are all important and they need to adjust constantly. There would have to be an alternative to recover that. Think about this: even if you have everything collected for a set making 5 pieces will cost you 125 transmutes.Thats 4 days unless you supplement with undaunted (which has just as much of the same issue with speed running), ToT which many people despise, or pvp which is also a sore subject for many. For trial sets most people just don't have a full book. Even people on some of my teams dont have full books for a lot of trials. Right now it costs me 35 to 40 for one piece depending on the trial. Doing it by role assumes everyone has all three and can play them reasonably well. A lot of folks don't, can't, or are just plain bored by certain roles.

As i said if they wanted to do that it would have to be supplemented there would just be too much negative kickback over it.

If they need to conjure a new five piece set into existence more than once every 4 days then there is a bigger issue to discuss.

Probably your trial leaders stupid expectations. But perhaps a game issue.

Most of the sets have been around for a while but teams run different setups for different content. supports need to be able to synchronize buffs to run effectly at a high level and people also need to be able to flex into different roles if subs are needed. new people join teams frequently with different comps they what their previous team might have been as well. On top of that sets change a lot with patches and updates which means additional ones may suddenly be real important since another got nerfed or a skill did and you need x set to compensate. Progs have to adjust for these things. I currently have 4 support dps sets, 6 tank sets, over a dozen full damage sets, mythics, monster helms ect and i am on the low end. That is full sets, meaning weapons/jewlery and armor since they may need to be mixed a matched differently, especially for tanks. BiS is different by content. This is normal for HM and above. I had to put together a new 5 piece on tuesday for a thursday run last week. My leads are actually relatively relaxed for the level of content we do.

Vaqual

BejaProphet wrote: »

And I’m a little baffled that the brokenness of this reward system is not obvious to everyone. Right now, if I do my pledge on vet dlc hard mode dungeon. Some of the hardest content in the game, and after working and working at it, finally I win…

5 transmute crystals.

Meanwhile another person speeds through a random normal and they get?…

10 transmute crystals.

Oh, and they did that 8 times in the time it took me to do the vet dlc hardmode.

So 80 crystals to 5 crystals.

Are we going to honestly pretend that’s a good design? Yes the keys are there but we all know the transmutes are the real reward.

The incentives punish the people who try hard things and reward the people who fake tank to skip queues and rush through dungeons. They do it BECAUSE the system rewards it. That’s not a good thing.

It is actually clever, otherwise players who can't do vet runs would complain even more about how unfair it is that the big transmutes gains are "gatekept". And these people are the most powerful faction on the forums. There is some overlap between the slow people and the "accessibilitants", but you wouldn't want to fight that mob at full strength.

BejaProphet

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

And I’m a little baffled that the brokenness of this reward system is not obvious to everyone. Right now, if I do my pledge on vet dlc hard mode dungeon. Some of the hardest content in the game, and after working and working at it, finally I win…

5 transmute crystals.

Meanwhile another person speeds through a random normal and they get?…

10 transmute crystals.

Oh, and they did that 8 times in the time it took me to do the vet dlc hardmode.

So 80 crystals to 5 crystals.

Are we going to honestly pretend that’s a good design? Yes the keys are there but we all know the transmutes are the real reward.

The incentives punish the people who try hard things and reward the people who fake tank to skip queues and rush through dungeons. They do it BECAUSE the system rewards it. That’s not a good thing.

It is actually clever, otherwise players who can't do vet runs would complain even more about how unfair it is that the big transmutes gains are "gatekept". And these people are the most powerful faction on the forums. There is some overlap between the slow people and the "accessibilitants", but you wouldn't want to fight that mob at full strength.

So for clarity, are you saying that risk verses reward is a bad model?

BejaProphet

@boi_anachronism_

I get that. I’m not the sweatiest of trial guys, in fact at my current stage of life with three kids I’m not currently in that world. But I’ve been exposed to it enough to understand the groups and play styles you are referring to. I understand the meticulous synergysing that goes on there and how one changed set means somebody else needs to change their set and so forth. Totally with you. I don’t want to play like that, but there is nothing wrong with it. Point being: I do understand you.

But your own post works for me. You have those piles of sets. You don’t need 120+ transmutes a day. What you DO need is this…

1. The ability to respond quickly to a new patch where ZOS screws with your trial set up.

2. The ability to get a set or two because a new trial requires a new strat (this one typically overlaps with number 1 in that a new trial is only on a patch.)

3. In between patches you or your trial leader has some crazy idea. And that means you need to be able to do a few sets in between patch days.

My point now is this. None of these needs REQUIRE you to generate 120+ transmutes per day. They require you to prepare in advance for patch day. They require the player “who has arrived” so to speak, to meet patch day with their capped 1,000 transmutes and a well filled sticker book. If you do that a person like you is absolutely fine with whatever changes may come. And you will crank out all the sets you need.

Now here is the problem. What we just described is an “end game” player set up. And it is the result of an endgame that is about by design oriented around horizontal progression. ZOS has made end game grinding and accomplishment to be about moment to moment flexibility rather than reaching a super high power
Level. The only person who would need 120+ transmutes a day is for a guild leader to expect a new player to get into your end game flexibility “over-night.” (Demand it in 45-60 days like.). That is not a needed thing, it is unreasonable expectation of a trial leader.

ESO has already made it so that a player can catch up in terms of power in like two weeks if they try to and have no life. That is unheard of in the MMO world. The true gradual strengthening of an account in ESO is horizontal. Reaching the type of situation and instantaneous flexibility you describe yourself to have is the true progression in ESO. And I’m HAPPY with that design decision. But to then demand that a newer player has the ability to do so on a trial leaders command as you yourself would be able to is stupidity. And it would be removing the only source of gradual progression in the game btw.

And it’s therefore not a valid argument to say a new player “needs to accommodate that trial leader”is not a good argument for keeping in place such an inflated source of transmutes through such a trivial means.

Edit note: Especially when that inflated reward is causing such a fiasco of a problem with dungeon scene.

Whether or not you agree, I hope this lengthy reasoning convinced you that I’m not just being irrational or ignorant of the trial world.

Vaqual

BejaProphet wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

And I’m a little baffled that the brokenness of this reward system is not obvious to everyone. Right now, if I do my pledge on vet dlc hard mode dungeon. Some of the hardest content in the game, and after working and working at it, finally I win…

5 transmute crystals.

Meanwhile another person speeds through a random normal and they get?…

10 transmute crystals.

Oh, and they did that 8 times in the time it took me to do the vet dlc hardmode.

So 80 crystals to 5 crystals.

Are we going to honestly pretend that’s a good design? Yes the keys are there but we all know the transmutes are the real reward.

The incentives punish the people who try hard things and reward the people who fake tank to skip queues and rush through dungeons. They do it BECAUSE the system rewards it. That’s not a good thing.

It is actually clever, otherwise players who can't do vet runs would complain even more about how unfair it is that the big transmutes gains are "gatekept". And these people are the most powerful faction on the forums. There is some overlap between the slow people and the "accessibilitants", but you wouldn't want to fight that mob at full strength.

So for clarity, are you saying that risk verses reward is a bad model?

No that is not what I am saying^^.

BejaProphet

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

And I’m a little baffled that the brokenness of this reward system is not obvious to everyone. Right now, if I do my pledge on vet dlc hard mode dungeon. Some of the hardest content in the game, and after working and working at it, finally I win…

5 transmute crystals.

Meanwhile another person speeds through a random normal and they get?…

10 transmute crystals.

Oh, and they did that 8 times in the time it took me to do the vet dlc hardmode.

So 80 crystals to 5 crystals.

Are we going to honestly pretend that’s a good design? Yes the keys are there but we all know the transmutes are the real reward.

The incentives punish the people who try hard things and reward the people who fake tank to skip queues and rush through dungeons. They do it BECAUSE the system rewards it. That’s not a good thing.

It is actually clever, otherwise players who can't do vet runs would complain even more about how unfair it is that the big transmutes gains are "gatekept". And these people are the most powerful faction on the forums. There is some overlap between the slow people and the "accessibilitants", but you wouldn't want to fight that mob at full strength.

So for clarity, are you saying that risk verses reward is a bad model?

No that is not what I am saying^^.

Ok, good. It sounded like by “gate keeping” you meant “ better rewards requiring you to do harder content.” Which is risk verses reward model.

Vaqual

BejaProphet wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

And I’m a little baffled that the brokenness of this reward system is not obvious to everyone. Right now, if I do my pledge on vet dlc hard mode dungeon. Some of the hardest content in the game, and after working and working at it, finally I win…

5 transmute crystals.

Meanwhile another person speeds through a random normal and they get?…

10 transmute crystals.

Oh, and they did that 8 times in the time it took me to do the vet dlc hardmode.

So 80 crystals to 5 crystals.

Are we going to honestly pretend that’s a good design? Yes the keys are there but we all know the transmutes are the real reward.

The incentives punish the people who try hard things and reward the people who fake tank to skip queues and rush through dungeons. They do it BECAUSE the system rewards it. That’s not a good thing.

It is actually clever, otherwise players who can't do vet runs would complain even more about how unfair it is that the big transmutes gains are "gatekept". And these people are the most powerful faction on the forums. There is some overlap between the slow people and the "accessibilitants", but you wouldn't want to fight that mob at full strength.

So for clarity, are you saying that risk verses reward is a bad model?

No that is not what I am saying^^.

Ok, good. It sounded like by “gate keeping” you meant “ better rewards requiring you to do harder content.” Which is risk verses reward model.

I feel you didn't understand what I wrote but you chose to explain your comment, which I understood anyway, regardless.

inb4 removed for unnecessary back and forth

BejaProphet

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

And I’m a little baffled that the brokenness of this reward system is not obvious to everyone. Right now, if I do my pledge on vet dlc hard mode dungeon. Some of the hardest content in the game, and after working and working at it, finally I win…

5 transmute crystals.

Meanwhile another person speeds through a random normal and they get?…

10 transmute crystals.

Oh, and they did that 8 times in the time it took me to do the vet dlc hardmode.

So 80 crystals to 5 crystals.

Are we going to honestly pretend that’s a good design? Yes the keys are there but we all know the transmutes are the real reward.

The incentives punish the people who try hard things and reward the people who fake tank to skip queues and rush through dungeons. They do it BECAUSE the system rewards it. That’s not a good thing.

It is actually clever, otherwise players who can't do vet runs would complain even more about how unfair it is that the big transmutes gains are "gatekept". And these people are the most powerful faction on the forums. There is some overlap between the slow people and the "accessibilitants", but you wouldn't want to fight that mob at full strength.

So for clarity, are you saying that risk verses reward is a bad model?

No that is not what I am saying^^.

Ok, good. It sounded like by “gate keeping” you meant “ better rewards requiring you to do harder content.” Which is risk verses reward model.

I feel you didn't understand what I wrote but you chose to explain your comment, which I understood anyway, regardless.

inb4 removed for unnecessary back and forth

Maybe I’m not understanding you. I truly want to. Here is what I understood you to say. I genuinely want to know though.

I took you to say…

1. People should not need to do harder content to get better rewards.

2. If I don’t don’t change my position to that then lots of people are going to be mean to me.

boi_anachronism_

BejaProphet wrote: »

@boi_anachronism_

I get that. I’m not the sweatiest of trial guys, in fact at my current stage of life with three kids I’m not currently in that world. But I’ve been exposed to it enough to understand the groups and play styles you are referring to. I understand the meticulous synergysing that goes on there and how one changed set means somebody else needs to change their set and so forth. Totally with you. I don’t want to play like that, but there is nothing wrong with it. Point being: I do understand you.

But your own post works for me. You have those piles of sets. You don’t need 120+ transmutes a day. What you DO need is this…

1. The ability to respond quickly to a new patch where ZOS screws with your trial set up.

2. The ability to get a set or two because a new trial requires a new strat (this one typically overlaps with number 1 in that a new trial is only on a patch.)

3. In between patches you or your trial leader has some crazy idea. And that means you need to be able to do a few sets in between patch days.

My point now is this. None of these needs REQUIRE you to generate 120+ transmutes per day. They require you to prepare in advance for patch day. They require the player “who has arrived” so to speak, to meet patch day with their capped 1,000 transmutes and a well filled sticker book. If you do that a person like you is absolutely fine with whatever changes may come. And you will crank out all the sets you need.

Now here is the problem. What we just described is an “end game” player set up. And it is the result of an endgame that is about by design oriented around horizontal progression. ZOS has made end game grinding and accomplishment to be about moment to moment flexibility rather than reaching a super high power
Level. The only person who would need 120+ transmutes a day is for a guild leader to expect a new player to get into your end game flexibility “over-night.” (Demand it in 45-60 days like.). That is not a needed thing, it is unreasonable expectation of a trial leader.

ESO has already made it so that a player can catch up in terms of power in like two weeks if they try to and have no life. That is unheard of in the MMO world. The true gradual strengthening of an account in ESO is horizontal. Reaching the type of situation and instantaneous flexibility you describe yourself to have is the true progression in ESO. And I’m HAPPY with that design decision. But to then demand that a newer player has the ability to do so on a trial leaders command as you yourself would be able to is stupidity. And it would be removing the only source of gradual progression in the game btw.

And it’s therefore not a valid argument to say a new player “needs to accommodate that trial leader”is not a good argument for keeping in place such an inflated source of transmutes through such a trivial means.

Edit note: Especially when that inflated reward is causing such a fiasco of a problem with dungeon scene.

Whether or not you agree, I hope this lengthy reasoning convinced you that I’m not just being irrational or ignorant of the trial world.

Im not 100% disagreeing with some of your points however new players shouldnt be discussed in relation to trial hms, they would not be in that situation. When beginning progs i cycle through many iterations of set ups, the whole team does. As i said ive needed to get sets in 24 hr periods, not because of a patch but simply because im running with a different team. Things change a lot prog to prog including required sets. Some things that are "off meta" and not run in ne could be used by another lead because it fits the comp. Saving 1k transmutes? Nope. As a tank i need 10 pieces of every set i run so it can be run with any other set and as ive mentioned few players have full stickerbooks and to say oh just fill your book is kinda wild considering the time commitment in addition to finding or having a team that can consistently clear. For dreadsail for example i need an average of 40 per piece. We are also neglecting pvp. A player can go through dozens of setups when building a single toon.

So look im not saying its a good model but the presented solution is just not viable. There needs to be an alternative and as i said: it doesnt solve the issue. It just means-

People will be forced to play roles they don't enjoy or arent competent in for dailys or they will simply fake que.

Less people in dungeon ques

A lot of irritated people who run randoms with guildmates like myself
It also assumes that by nature of running only 3 randoms a day that somehow people will want to spend 20 more minutes in fg1 which is not realistic.

Idk about you but i dont have time to run a single dungeon every day. I have blocks over the weekend which is when i farm a ton of em with my buddies since we got real lives and its the only time we got. Any week day play i hop on specifically for my prog and then log out. If i were limited to that few a day it would take me forever to get a full set of anything.

Another thing to consider: if you can only get 10 a day per role per account that means a ton of people now have to build new toons specifically for that... and outfit them. So do they gotta just get 10 transmutes a day until they can gear a healer and a tank if they are a dps main?

As i said there needs to be a better solution.

BejaProphet

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@boi_anachronism_

I get that. I’m not the sweatiest of trial guys, in fact at my current stage of life with three kids I’m not currently in that world. But I’ve been exposed to it enough to understand the groups and play styles you are referring to. I understand the meticulous synergysing that goes on there and how one changed set means somebody else needs to change their set and so forth. Totally with you. I don’t want to play like that, but there is nothing wrong with it. Point being: I do understand you.

But your own post works for me. You have those piles of sets. You don’t need 120+ transmutes a day. What you DO need is this…

1. The ability to respond quickly to a new patch where ZOS screws with your trial set up.

2. The ability to get a set or two because a new trial requires a new strat (this one typically overlaps with number 1 in that a new trial is only on a patch.)

3. In between patches you or your trial leader has some crazy idea. And that means you need to be able to do a few sets in between patch days.

My point now is this. None of these needs REQUIRE you to generate 120+ transmutes per day. They require you to prepare in advance for patch day. They require the player “who has arrived” so to speak, to meet patch day with their capped 1,000 transmutes and a well filled sticker book. If you do that a person like you is absolutely fine with whatever changes may come. And you will crank out all the sets you need.

Now here is the problem. What we just described is an “end game” player set up. And it is the result of an endgame that is about by design oriented around horizontal progression. ZOS has made end game grinding and accomplishment to be about moment to moment flexibility rather than reaching a super high power
Level. The only person who would need 120+ transmutes a day is for a guild leader to expect a new player to get into your end game flexibility “over-night.” (Demand it in 45-60 days like.). That is not a needed thing, it is unreasonable expectation of a trial leader.

ESO has already made it so that a player can catch up in terms of power in like two weeks if they try to and have no life. That is unheard of in the MMO world. The true gradual strengthening of an account in ESO is horizontal. Reaching the type of situation and instantaneous flexibility you describe yourself to have is the true progression in ESO. And I’m HAPPY with that design decision. But to then demand that a newer player has the ability to do so on a trial leaders command as you yourself would be able to is stupidity. And it would be removing the only source of gradual progression in the game btw.

And it’s therefore not a valid argument to say a new player “needs to accommodate that trial leader”is not a good argument for keeping in place such an inflated source of transmutes through such a trivial means.

Edit note: Especially when that inflated reward is causing such a fiasco of a problem with dungeon scene.

Whether or not you agree, I hope this lengthy reasoning convinced you that I’m not just being irrational or ignorant of the trial world.

Im not 100% disagreeing with some of your points however new players shouldnt be discussed in relation to trial hms, they would not be in that situation. When beginning progs i cycle through many iterations of set ups, the whole team does. As i said ive needed to get sets in 24 hr periods, not because of a patch but simply because im running with a different team. Things change a lot prog to prog including required sets. Some things that are "off meta" and not run in ne could be used by another lead because it fits the comp. Saving 1k transmutes? Nope. As a tank i need 10 pieces of every set i run so it can be run with any other set and as ive mentioned few players have full stickerbooks and to say oh just fill your book is kinda wild considering the time commitment in addition to finding or having a team that can consistently clear. For dreadsail for example i need an average of 40 per piece. We are also neglecting pvp. A player can go through dozens of setups when building a single toon.

So look im not saying its a good model but the presented solution is just not viable. There needs to be an alternative and as i said: it doesnt solve the issue. It just means-

People will be forced to play roles they don't enjoy or arent competent in for dailys or they will simply fake que.

Less people in dungeon ques

A lot of irritated people who run randoms with guildmates like myself
It also assumes that by nature of running only 3 randoms a day that somehow people will want to spend 20 more minutes in fg1 which is not realistic.

Idk about you but i dont have time to run a single dungeon every day. I have blocks over the weekend which is when i farm a ton of em with my buddies since we got real lives and its the only time we got. Any week day play i hop on specifically for my prog and then log out. If i were limited to that few a day it would take me forever to get a full set of anything.

Another thing to consider: if you can only get 10 a day per role per account that means a ton of people now have to build new toons specifically for that... and outfit them. So do they gotta just get 10 transmutes a day until they can gear a healer and a tank if they are a dps main?

As i said there needs to be a better solution.

Again. At no point have I suggested we cap the amount of transmutes we earn a day. In fact I would be strongly in favor of buffing the reward for repeatedly doing randoms. I’m suggesting we limit the amount of giant piles earned from running kiddy dungeons first time per character.

Let me ask this. I run vet randoms a lot. Some times I’ll run ten vet random dungeons in a day. After my pledges. I do this on veteran on a single character because I’m not a fan of alts. I give group after group a real tank. Controlling the fight and buffing with crimson oath and drakes rush.

You know what I make per dungeon? 1 transmute crystal. Does that sound like a fair system? Or one well designed? I get 1 crystal per dungeon for legitimately tanking veteran content. While Joe McSpeedy gets 10 per run for leaving his group behind in the kiddy dungeon. Is this a healthy incentive structure? What if it was something more sensible? What if we upped daily reward to 15 but it was limited to dungeon roles? That’s 45 freebies. But then repeated randoms was 3 per normal and six per vet? Then (since this is for elite trial guys to get what they need) what if doing your pledge for the dlc had a special reward? If get the HM clear, you get one of those golden 50 crystal geodes. Every day. So I’m not trying to squelch the gaining of transmutes. I’m saying let’s incentivize some real game play rather than seeing how many character slots you can buy and how quickly you can do mindless things.

So I’m all for upping the transmute crystals in a way that is sensible. I’m saying we need to limit the amount givin as party favors for waking up that day. Because it’s causing the fake tank phenomenon in the normal dungeons.

Just my opinions.

ShatteredRose6

Yes yes, this is all fine and stuff but when/how do we stop fake roles and speedrunning boss to boss in veteran dungeon finder which is actually hurting player experience for new and vets alike

AvalonRanger

Elsonso wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

Guys i know the secret to stopping fake-role speedrunners in dungeons and make the dungeon running experience less annoying!

Increase the transmute reward for Random Vet. Dungeons OR (the less popular option) decrease the transmute reward for normal dungeons.

Yes the solution is that simple! We all met the burnt out/toxic/fake-role/doesn't wait for the group person that is just there for the transmutes. Increasing/decreasing the transmute reward would increase the incentive to play a veteran dungeons and encourage actually participating with the group.

We have group finder tool now. Just use it.
" No fake role" Define CP limitation, and define playing style.
No problem all.

Does "no fake role" actually work?

...Actually say, it depend on people's goodwill. Sadly, that's true.

Once...I had met fake healer. And I also encountered fake DD twice.
And I also met super DD several times in random group also.

Currently, group finder tool doesn't have solid role quality flag.(T_T)

Nharimlur_Finor

Take transmutes out of normal dungeons and let normal dungeons return to what they were intended for.
Spread them out across Craglorn or Wrothgar world bosses or some other ares that are underplayed currently.

Or just move them out of base game content into DLC content. Make people pay for them.

Araneae6537

I’ve said this before, but I think in another thread: the only way to solve this problem is to remove or dramatically reduce the transmute crystal reward (make it one crystal, like you now get for completing a DLC pledge dungeon).

Elsonso

LaintalAy wrote: »

Take transmutes out of normal dungeons and let normal dungeons return to what they were intended for.
Spread them out across Craglorn or Wrothgar world bosses or some other ares that are underplayed currently.

Or just move them out of base game content into DLC content. Make people pay for them.

I don't want another paywall for content.

The issue is not transmutes. It is dungeon design.

AvalonRanger

"Stop speedrunning in dungeons! "

ZOS had better stop to create hyper grinding contents like the "Scribing quest line".
People go to random dungeon only for Scribing reward. Not for enjoying contents.

KapiteinBoterham

My point is that if the game were to offer a higher reward for the random veteran option people would be more inclined to do the veteran content and in turn not try to solo/speedrun them (because the veteran content is not as easy as normal). This would cause the normal dungeons to be less filled with the "get it done" players, who would opt in for the higher rewards of the veteran dungeon.

ZOS by offering the exact same amount of rewards (transmutes) for random normal and veteran you are killing the new-player dungeon experience.

Highwayman

The rewards would have to be extremely high to drive the behavior you are looking for, but that's not really the hitch.

The real problem is this game loop seems designed specifically to turn over the normal queue. Risk/reward of the dungeon is not the purpose of the design at all. I am fairly sure that this is viewed as a successful system for increasing engagement.

The raw numbers of hours played (and maybe successful clears) it produces is what you'd need to appeal to to get it changed. Now, you can of course argue it shouldn't be that way, but I am really just pointing out it is that way.

FlopsyPrince

Many things in dungeons need to be tweaked. Let someone earn the skillpoint even if they can't keep up with the speed runner for one thing. Also keep advancing the quest even if the speedrunner messed that up.

Soarora

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Many things in dungeons need to be tweaked. Let someone earn the skillpoint even if they can't keep up with the speed runner for one thing. Also keep advancing the quest even if the speedrunner messed that up.

Most if not all dungeon quests do work this way.

Necrotech_Master

Soarora wrote: »

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Many things in dungeons need to be tweaked. Let someone earn the skillpoint even if they can't keep up with the speed runner for one thing. Also keep advancing the quest even if the speedrunner messed that up.

Most if not all dungeon quests do work this way.

DLC dungeons for sure

a lot of non-DLC dungeons have other things that are required, such as actually talking to NPCs (this may progress if multiple people are on the quest, but it doesnt come up at all for non-questers), or the weird lever issue in volenfell (if someone who is not on the quest pulls the lever, it "breaks" the quest and prevents that step from being completed for the person who is questing)

KapiteinBoterham

I'm having a really hard time finding groups for Veteran Dungeons lately. Even on my tank characters i get long queues!!

A difference in Transmute rewards is desperately needed. Normal dungeons are filled with 2000cp players rushing and ruining new players their experience, we need more people queueing up for Random Veteran Dungeons! Extra transmutes is the way to go, trust me!

tincanman

KapiteinBoterham wrote: »

I'm having a really hard time finding groups for Veteran Dungeons lately. Even on my tank characters i get long queues!!

A difference in Transmute rewards is desperately needed. Normal dungeons are filled with 2000cp players rushing and ruining new players their experience, we need more people queueing up for Random Veteran Dungeons! Extra transmutes is the way to go, trust me!

No thanks on the increased transmutes. If that happened you would probably have shorter queue times but your speed running complaint would become true of vet dungeons, too. With an added complaint about fake roles, probably.

Join guilds and/or run with friends. Or use the group finder tool if farming for collection completions or something else specific to a particular dungeon.

Or re-queue, maybe, if the queue doesn't work immediately for a random vet dungeon with your tank? - I have heard that the solo queue is glitchy and re-queuing sometimes fixes the issue of long wait times.

KapiteinBoterham

@tincanman Yeah but the speedrunners would die because of the increased difficulty

I was talking about pledges. Why would i ever queue up for a Random Veteran Dungeon? The transmute reward is exactly the same (the whole point of this thread).