Stop speedrunning in dungeons!

Luckylancer · January 29

It is toxic to demand me wait. I quest to the dungeon and I can run ahead. If I dont die it is ok.

When I want to do quest I dont force others to play the way I want. I solo the dungeon.

KapiteinBoterham · January 29

Increasing the transmute reward for veteran dungeons wil encourage more players to try out veteran dungeons.
Let normal dungeons be the speedrun-mess that they are. But actually reward the players who bother to queue veteran.

Your best bet is to just chill and listen to the dialogue while your group rushes ahead. Sidenote: Why do i get exited out of quest dialogue and it makes it impossible to accept the quest anymore once my group hits a certain point? Very bad design..

@Luckylancer You don't get any transmutes for soloing dungeons tho, you need to queue RND/RVD.

Hapexamendios · February 1

Luckylancer wrote: »

It is toxic to demand me wait. I quest to the dungeon and I can run ahead. If I dont die it is ok.

When I want to do quest I dont force others to play the way I want. I solo the dungeon.

You say you don't force people the play you want yet when you sped ahead when others don't want to that is exactly what you're doing.

Whether you're speed running or doing the quest slowly the best way to do it as a group is to go in with like-minded players. Going in solo on a random is going to get you exactly that, a random group. You either deal with the way they play or leave. That's applicable to all play styles.

Dax_Draconis · February 2

They should offer additional rewards for completing dungeons that have an active quest for any group members. They should also stop bosses from spawning until all group members are in range.

It's really backward thinking to expect players to have no choice but to make a premade group to complete a quest and run a dungeon as intended, instead of using the group finder tool.

svendf · February 4

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

They should offer additional rewards for completing dungeons that have an active quest for any group members. They should also stop bosses from spawning until all group members are in range.

It's really backward thinking to expect players to have no choice but to make a premade group to complete a quest and run a dungeon as intended, instead of using the group finder tool.

Level synced dungeons and level synced player will help alot plus your idea. Also get the trinity working.

Katheriah · February 4

universeman444 wrote: »

when you join a rnd and have a fake heal arcanist you just know it's time to hit that auto run button while they run ahead and melt everything. very fun. very engaging gameplay

That's amazing.

If you've been playing this game for almost 10 years, you may find yourself growing wary of slow people in basegame dungeons.

There's almost no fun in replaying them over and over again, but they do give transmutes. So if you want those, you're going to have to replay... I'll do a little dance if I run into someone else that doesn't want to read all the books and listen to all the NPC's.

Vaqual · February 4

ClowdyAllDay · February 4

OK so i will admit that i think it's normal to speed run in imperial city prison and white gold tower but not in the rest of the base game dungeons.

base game non-dlc dungeons - speedrunning not ok. most are so short that speedrunning doesnt massively improve the time it takes to complete them and you just *** off the newbies.

dlc and up - well expect that they take so long people tire of doing them. but they are usu so much harder that speed running ofeten is of no use.

GooGa592 · February 4

normal dungeon = ok to speed run
vet dungeon = have to play mechanics, so no speed running (with exception of the very easy base game dungeons)

svendf · February 4

Speed run normal dungeons are the best way to get people to quit the game, and not learning the basics (look where you stand). It´s a lottery going into a dungeon, with the aim to do a quest, which create stress, as the player don´t know if he/she have to do several runs or got lucky this time around (and much more stress if they have to run several times).

The unbalance is shown in normal dungeons, where griefing have been become the norm in Eso. Eso is kind of upside down in that regard compared to other high-end Mmo´s out there, with high player count.

Level synce is something Eso don´t have and missing, where it´s needed, to create a balanced game play - again upside, down.

To me it seems ZoS is ok with that, and some other things as well. It´s up the player, who it may concerns to accept it, by finding content in the game away from those troubles or leave Eso behind, and try some other Mmo with less problems.

For my part I left Eso behind and found a better home all in all. I still have my Eso account and follow the forums from time to time, and even logg-on, once a month or so to have a look.

All in all Eso is a good game content vice, that said, it lagg focus on being a place with less focus of being upside, down.

Vaqual · February 4

svendf wrote: »

Speed run normal dungeons are the best way to get people to quit the game, and not learning the basics (look where you stand). It´s a lottery going into a dungeon, with the aim to do a quest, which create stress, as the player don´t know if he/she have to do several runs or got lucky this time around (and much more stress if they have to run several times).

This is purely anecdotal. You can absolutely learn the game and have a good time if you don't spend 20 min banished cells I.
I was also a new player once and I was far more impressed with what ease the experienced players where able to breeze through dungeons, while I was taking a beating from slightly too large overland pulls. It served more as an inspiration. If a mechanic isn't punishing, it is not worth learning.

svendf · February 4

Vaqual wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Speed run normal dungeons are the best way to get people to quit the game, and not learning the basics (look where you stand). It´s a lottery going into a dungeon, with the aim to do a quest, which create stress, as the player don´t know if he/she have to do several runs or got lucky this time around (and much more stress if they have to run several times).

This is purely anecdotal. You can absolutely learn the game and have a good time if you don't spend 20 min banished cells I.
I was also a new player once and I was far more impressed with what ease the experienced players where able to breeze through dungeons, while I was taking a beating from slightly too large overland pulls. It served more as an inspiration. If a mechanic isn't punishing, it is not worth learning.

Seems to me you are in the right Mmo, which is good. I am also in the right Mmo now, where every dungeon can be or/are a challenge - depends on how long time have past, the last time it came up during my duty Roulettes. The level synce do alot in regard to balance. Every player with a higher level have always had higher skills in rotations and handling mechanics - going from level 90 to level 30, or even to level 20. That´s my kind of Mmo as skill and knowledge of the dungeon/trial or raid will tell you, if you have forgotten your basics at that level, and alot of giggel follow if that´s the case - I like that. We are all on even terms - It sort of keeps you on your toes.

A CP level 2k+ DD in FG1 without level synce and some knowledge of builds, rotations. Will always be the one, who dictates the run in all those cases. Some like having runs like that - unless they have a quest or farming and have to go througt every chest in that dungeon or even adds droping gear/weapons.

The two communty are so different from each other, because the gameplay will deside in, which direction the community will go - even distrust or trust will have an impact.

I am impressed by - lets say a situation where I just left Garuda Exstream on my level 90 Dragoon, and get a level 30 dungeon/trial in The Duty Roulette before calling the day. Standing in that instance with two other at cap level and a fresh level 30 - first timer doing the story. We all have to do the mechanic. We can even wipe if it´s a healer intens instance. Getting that player through that instance is pure satisfaction, because we are all at the same level.

It not only gives that new, fresh level 30 player confidens, it also give that player trust in the community. Trust builds confidens and confidens builds skill, knowledge.

In the case of Eso (after over 10k+ hours and I am not kidding), I am confident. By adding level synce will be healthy for both players and Eso - and I am saying that after 900 hours + in the other Mmo.

In Eso a quest means a skillpoint for you character, which is important for the player. There are a very high risk in Eso being grouped up, with players, who´s agenda is all about them, and anything around them in a easy dungeon. I have even in chat seen "bad luck better luck next time". I can´t help feeling bad for those, who just went in for a quest and skillpoint, getting nothing.

Some people are ok with that kind of out come. For those, who find it way over the line and don´t like it. You have to find another way/other content in Eso if you wanna see yourself fare away from those problems. Or as I did move to another home. I am happy I did.

Does it mean it´s better on the other side? I feel I am in the right Mmo. Same goes for you and that´s the most important of it all.

Dax_Draconis · February 5

svendf wrote: »

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

They should offer additional rewards for completing dungeons that have an active quest for any group members. They should also stop bosses from spawning until all group members are in range.

It's really backward thinking to expect players to have no choice but to make a premade group to complete a quest and run a dungeon as intended, instead of using the group finder tool.

Level synced dungeons and level synced player will help alot plus your idea. Also get the trinity working.

Level doesn't really matter much because not all players that are new to a dungeon are low level. I took a break from ESO and now have many DLC dungeons I have never been in before. Problem is that everyone speeds through them, and while I can pick up the quest, I have no idea what is even going on because I can't stop to listen to the story at all.

The other day I was in one and there was something about mixing ingredients together and another part about turning into giant werewolves, but since the group wanted to speed through it, I still have no idea what that dungeon was about. I feel like the Devs are wasting their time even making a story for these dungeons as it seems impossible to even experience them as intended.

svendf · February 5

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

They should offer additional rewards for completing dungeons that have an active quest for any group members. They should also stop bosses from spawning until all group members are in range.

It's really backward thinking to expect players to have no choice but to make a premade group to complete a quest and run a dungeon as intended, instead of using the group finder tool.

Level synced dungeons and level synced player will help alot plus your idea. Also get the trinity working.

Level doesn't really matter much because not all players that are new to a dungeon are low level. I took a break from ESO and now have many DLC dungeons I have never been in before. Problem is that everyone speeds through them, and while I can pick up the quest, I have no idea what is even going on because I can't stop to listen to the story at all.

The other day I was in one and there was something about mixing ingredients together and another part about turning into giant werewolves, but since the group wanted to speed through it, I still have no idea what that dungeon was about. I feel like the Devs are wasting their time even making a story for these dungeons as it seems impossible to even experience them as intended.

We all play to have fun. At least that´s what I wanna beleive. In my main Mmo we do pace up a bit. Do wall to wall pulls, which do add up. A unwritten rule is the tank only pull, what he/she is able to handle, and sometime it goes wrong, if it does go wrong it will not happen again, that´s also a unwritten rule - be careful not to grief. Things like that can happen if it´s a returning player, that´s why returning players have an icon over their player name so we know, what we are dealing with - a player, who haven´t played in a while.

Regarding high level player´s can be new to dungeons have always been a Eso thing. People can quest on without entering a dungeon. That´s the design and people can get high CP just by questing and doing overland bosses, delves and public dungeons, which seems fine - some find out later on that they wanna try dungeons/trials.

In case of the Mmo I am enjoying now is, basic everyone do the main story and by doing that, you will be acquainted with dungeons, trials and 24 man raids. That is, the story version of those - or normal dungeons/trials. You also have solo encounters with bosses (solo duty).

knowing the normal version of the dungeon/trial will be total different from normal, when you enter the Exstream, Savage or ultimate version of those dungeons/trials. Farming mounts as I do, there is no way around Exstream Trials like it or not. That´s where the community, FC (guild) enter the scene. Just alot of help coming from that side and those trials are not easy. It starts out with "what mounts do you have"? Hmm I have these two. Ah ok lol. We can change that if you want some exstream mounts.

I dont have any mounts in Eso. I have skins from dungeons and trials. It have always been alot of fuzz going on and just gave up.

Eso is basic about cheesing the content to avoid mechanics. You can´t do that in the Mmo I am playing now because it have a Item level you have to reach gear vice or you can´t enter, and the level synce cuts in if you are above that item level. Gear you will get if you follow the story content or buy from the marketboard (crafted gear). Dungeons, trials and raids drops are like in WoW - Need, Greed or Pass, and no opening chets.

I can´t be sure, but it seems to me that the ZoS devs are ok with people skiping content/story, eventhough alot dev time have been put into it. It´s on them.

SaffronCitrusflower · February 5

speed running normal dungeons is to be expected. Why spend an hour in a normal dungeon?

svendf · February 5

A trifecta in a base vDungeon is rund 15-18 minutes and sometimes not even that long - depending on dungeon the requirement is 20 or 25 minutes. That´s alot of time.

How on earth can a normal dungeon take an hour ? When I ran dungeons back to back in Eso it never took an hour.

Some really like to run things in Eso, even if it ruin other peoples run - I mainly think of new players and quest runners.

Hahaha OMG

pelle412 · February 6

The players who speedrun random normals will continue to do so regardless of what anyone else says because the rewards are so good. They play this game for their own enjoyment which doesn't include yours. The simple fix is to not make it worthwhile to speedrun random normals.

universeman444 · February 8

pelle412 wrote: »

The players who speedrun random normals will continue to do so regardless of what anyone else says because the rewards are so good. They play this game for their own enjoyment which doesn't include yours. The simple fix is to not make it worthwhile to speedrun random normals.

Yes, that's called being selfish. There are 3 other people in the group and maybe their parents should've taught them that the world doesn't revolve around them.

AlterBlika · February 8

People would speedrun powercrept vet dungeons just like they do with normals

Muizer · February 8

I suppose I can tolerate people wanting to finish a normal dungeon quickly, but waiting for the group to assemble before engaging bosses is IMHO not too much to expect. A few days back I had a situation where I got trapped on the wrong side of a door and was left there until the activity completed. That was definitely uncool.

boi_anachronism_ · February 8

BejaProphet wrote: »

Two moves would solve the dungeon problems.

1. Stop letting every alt get a first random dungeon of the day boost. Currently we get extra rewards for doing a first random dungeon. Then if you log onto a new character, you get it again. This causes people to try and run it with twelve different alts. If DD’s have a thirty minute wait time (or more) then that is 6+ hours of waiting per day. This is driving people to fake tank and rush dungeons both. It would be far better to tie first time rewards to each “role.” Not each character.

2. Simply let there be an option to accept a group without the “holy trinity” of tank, DD, healer when using group finder. A fake tank is choosing to not have a tank in exchange for faster queue time. So just give them that option! All the DD’s willing to rush with no tank will get in faster. This will relieve the incentive to fake tank AND ALSO lower the wait for DD’s who do want a tank and healer.

These two actions would solve most frustrations instantly.

I think you would get a massive backlash on the first one. Transmutes are rare as it is. Raiders and pvpers on every level utilize them constantly by sheer necessity, especially pve supports. I can tell you from experience that they have a literal closet of sets to do their jobs effectively since group comp and buffs are all important and they need to adjust constantly. There would have to be an alternative to recover that. Think about this: even if you have everything collected for a set making 5 pieces will cost you 125 transmutes.Thats 4 days unless you supplement with undaunted (which has just as much of the same issue with speed running), ToT which many people despise, or pvp which is also a sore subject for many. For trial sets most people just don't have a full book. Even people on some of my teams dont have full books for a lot of trials. Right now it costs me 35 to 40 for one piece depending on the trial. Doing it by role assumes everyone has all three and can play them reasonably well. A lot of folks don't, can't, or are just plain bored by certain roles.

As i said if they wanted to do that it would have to be supplemented there would just be too much negative kickback over it.

BejaProphet · February 11

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Two moves would solve the dungeon problems.

1. Stop letting every alt get a first random dungeon of the day boost. Currently we get extra rewards for doing a first random dungeon. Then if you log onto a new character, you get it again. This causes people to try and run it with twelve different alts. If DD’s have a thirty minute wait time (or more) then that is 6+ hours of waiting per day. This is driving people to fake tank and rush dungeons both. It would be far better to tie first time rewards to each “role.” Not each character.

2. Simply let there be an option to accept a group without the “holy trinity” of tank, DD, healer when using group finder. A fake tank is choosing to not have a tank in exchange for faster queue time. So just give them that option! All the DD’s willing to rush with no tank will get in faster. This will relieve the incentive to fake tank AND ALSO lower the wait for DD’s who do want a tank and healer.

These two actions would solve most frustrations instantly.

I think you would get a massive backlash on the first one. Transmutes are rare as it is. Raiders and pvpers on every level utilize them constantly by sheer necessity, especially pve supports. I can tell you from experience that they have a literal closet of sets to do their jobs effectively since group comp and buffs are all important and they need to adjust constantly. There would have to be an alternative to recover that. Think about this: even if you have everything collected for a set making 5 pieces will cost you 125 transmutes.Thats 4 days unless you supplement with undaunted (which has just as much of the same issue with speed running), ToT which many people despise, or pvp which is also a sore subject for many. For trial sets most people just don't have a full book. Even people on some of my teams dont have full books for a lot of trials. Right now it costs me 35 to 40 for one piece depending on the trial. Doing it by role assumes everyone has all three and can play them reasonably well. A lot of folks don't, can't, or are just plain bored by certain roles.

As i said if they wanted to do that it would have to be supplemented there would just be too much negative kickback over it.

If they need to conjure a new five piece set into existence more than once every 4 days then there is a bigger issue to discuss.

Probably your trial leaders stupid expectations. But perhaps a game issue.

Hotdog_23 · February 11

I guess I am a speed runner, but I have done all the dungeons many times before. I kill everything in it, but I don’t stop at each group spot. Likewise, I learned where to pull everything together to kill it all together, which is the fastest and most efficient use of my and everyone else’s time. If you say you are doing the quest, I will slow down and give you time to enjoy the dungeon story, but not loot every container along the way and take an hour or more to do it.

I have had very few negative comments over the years from doing it this way. In fact, probably less than 15-20 out of thousands of times. Most of the time, it was the tank who complained or, through a temper tantrum and refused to even fracture anything because I didn’t let them dictate the “speed” of the dungeon.

Only once have I been asked to slow down. Which I certainly did and had no problem doing so.

Honest question: as I see this speed running come up a lot, if we kill everything, is it still speed running? Or, as I see it, more efficient use of time and resources.

For what it is worth, I would love to see ZOS add a story mode to not only the dungeons but also the trials. That you could do over and over and not just once. I have never been able to enjoy a single trial story since any came out. Or be able to enjoy the scenery in any of them. Disable set drops and giving everything overland difficulty is my suggestion.

Stay safe

edit: spelling

Ph1p · February 11

BejaProphet wrote: »

If they need to conjure a new five piece set into existence more than once every 4 days then there is a bigger issue to discuss.

Probably your trial leaders stupid expectations. But perhaps a game issue.

In more ambitious groups, it's not uncommon to reconstruct new sets when switching to a new trial or trying out new strategies. Nothing to do with trial leader being "stupid", but simply an attempt to optimize the group composition. It won't happen continuously every 4 days, 365 days a year, but often enough to make your first idea a non-starter.

Similarly, new people starting to tank or heal usually need to create a couple of sets and most of them won't have a full stickerbook. We once did a survey in our (trading) guild asking why people don't play support that much and the most common answer was not having the required gear. Let's not make that worse.

So, instead of taking away multiple daily rewards, I would add a new queue specifically marked as slow-paced or story-driven. Give it the same rewards, but put it on the same cooldown as the regular RND. There would be no speed-runners, because they would go with the faster RND option with each of their toons. At the same time, people who want to quest have an automatic queue option with full rewards as well.

BejaProphet · February 11

Ph1p wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

If they need to conjure a new five piece set into existence more than once every 4 days then there is a bigger issue to discuss.

Probably your trial leaders stupid expectations. But perhaps a game issue.

In more ambitious groups, it's not uncommon to reconstruct new sets when switching to a new trial or trying out new strategies. Nothing to do with trial leader being "stupid", but simply an attempt to optimize the group composition. It won't happen continuously every 4 days, 365 days a year, but often enough to make your first idea a non-starter.

Similarly, new people starting to tank or heal usually need to create a couple of sets and most of them won't have a full stickerbook. We once did a survey in our (trading) guild asking why people don't play support that much and the most common answer was not having the required gear. Let's not make that worse.

So, instead of taking away multiple daily rewards, I would add a new queue specifically marked as slow-paced or story-driven. Give it the same rewards, but put it on the same cooldown as the regular RND. There would be no speed-runners, because they would go with the faster RND option with each of their toons. At the same time, people who want to quest have an automatic queue option with full rewards as well.

I hear what you are saying. But I remain of the same opinion. Regarding both posts. That being said it’s not like my opinion matters. It’s not like ZOS is reading my posts taking notes.

Edit note: Also keep in mind my suggestion leaves you at 30 bonus crystals a day. As you are rewarded for each role. + up to 15 for each of those three characters for pledges. 75 a day is pretty fast. For just three characters. And you can stick pile a thousand for those burst moments during new trials. That’s plenty.

Muizer · February 11

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Honest question: as I see this speed running come up a lot, if we kill everything, is it still speed running? Or, as I see it, more efficient use of time and resources

I'd say if you stay at the front of the group and kill everything as fast as you can, that's not speed running. If the rest of the group does not keep up and you decide to go it alone, that's speed running. You would basically be ignoring that you are in a group activity and not caring about the experience of the others. You should not assume it is everybody's priority to be 'efficient with time and resources'. Some just want to enjoy the experience. I know hard to believe, but still ....

Ph1p · February 11

BejaProphet wrote: »

Also keep in mind my suggestion leaves you at 30 bonus crystals a day. As you are rewarded for each role. + up to 15 for each of those three characters for pledges. 75 a day is pretty fast. For just three characters. And you can stick pile a thousand for those burst moments during new trials. That’s plenty.

While I share your goal of improving the RND experience, I don't think your suggestion is viable, because it actively makes things worse for many players:

You'd get 75 transmutes for running 12 dungeons, including 3 quick RNDs and 9 potentially painful pledges on veteran hard mode. Whatever you personally consider a fast pace for farming transmutes, this is still way slower than today.
Not everyone has ESO+ double storage space. Not everyone wants to plan weeks ahead and grind dungeons when they don't have to. And even if they do, your proposal still makes it much slower than it is today.
You're essentially punishing people who need transmutes for whatever reason, which also includes every nice player who patiently waits for group members with quests. That alone disqualifies the suggestion in my mind.
Also, how does forcing people to queue as tank and heal for rewards prevent fake-tanks and fake-heals?

People who want transmutes and people who want story both have valid reasons to run dungeons the way they want. The problem is that there is no middle ground that can truly accommodate both. So the best solution is to provide a simple way of running with like-minded players.

Again, my suggestion would be to add a third random queue option for a slow-paced, story-focused run on normal difficulty. Since each character only gets the transmutes once per day for any of the random queues, a speed-runner will still pick the current RND queue and not "pollute" the story queue.

BejaProphet · February 11

Ph1p wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

Also keep in mind my suggestion leaves you at 30 bonus crystals a day. As you are rewarded for each role. + up to 15 for each of those three characters for pledges. 75 a day is pretty fast. For just three characters. And you can stick pile a thousand for those burst moments during new trials. That’s plenty.

While I share your goal of improving the RND experience, I don't think your suggestion is viable, because it actively makes things worse for many players:
You'd get 75 transmutes for running 12 dungeons, including 3 quick RNDs and 9 potentially painful pledges on veteran hard mode. Whatever you personally consider a fast pace for farming transmutes, this is still way slower than today.

Not everyone has ESO+ double storage space. Not everyone wants to plan weeks ahead and grind dungeons when they don't have to. And even if they do, your proposal still makes it much slower than it is today.

You're essentially punishing people who need transmutes for whatever reason, which also includes every nice player who patiently waits for group members with quests. That alone disqualifies the suggestion in my mind.

Also, how does forcing people to queue as tank and heal for rewards prevent fake-tanks and fake-heals?

People who want transmutes and people who want story both have valid reasons to run dungeons the way they want. The problem is that there is no middle ground that can truly accommodate both. So the best solution is to provide a simple way of running with like-minded players.

Again, my suggestion would be to add a third random queue option for a slow-paced, story-focused run on normal difficulty. Since each character only gets the transmutes once per day for any of the random queues, a speed-runner will still pick the current RND queue and not "pollute" the story queue.

The system is flawed. First, you do not NEED to get more than 30 transmutes a day. You don’t. I completely and utterly reject any reasoning thus far given to suggest that you NEED that. It’s nonsense. It is self-evidently nonsense. Change my mind if you can.

But second stop and consider the current system. Are we seriously saying that a system which forces me to make twelve characters to optimize my time is “working as intended?” That too is nonsense. It is a design flaw in the incentive structure.

Finally, this would work to reduce fake tanks because it would immediately remove the desire for most people to run 12+ random dungeons a day. For many it is the sheer amount of dungeons that are crammed into their schedule that makes them say, “screw it, I’ll just say I’m a tank.” But then also that will only benefit them once a day. It would instantly change the reward for bad behavior.

Vaqual · February 11

I think the system is working well enough. The dungeon queue could not be kept alive to the same degree without the "quick daily" players, the "scenic route enjoyers" just don't contribute to the same extent. Some guy who is farming on 15 alts on maximum speed will be queued disproportionally more than a newbie grinding through a dungeon at a snails pace. And the groupfinder queue is still slow for DDs, even with fake roles in the pool. Most MMOs I have been in have a comparable or worse group finder experience, and playing the respective content is always incentivised in some form. They could shift the transmute system around and there would still be players in your groups rushing dungeons to the best of their ability, for whatever incentive remains for them.

Whether it is about sets, skillpoints or transmutes, some people are always going to value time as an important aspect in their runs. I usually just don't do random dungeons at all until I need a bunch of transmutes, then I push all of my chars through as fast as I can. There is now the other lfg tool, which allows for more specific group building at the cost of a lower grouping rate. This should be ideal for all the people claiming that time is not a big factor and fake roles are the worst thing that ever happened to them.

And sure, sometimes you get a bad group. But they could also be bad with all the best intentions. Happens in all MMOs. Sometimes the run is just bad or even unsuccessful.

Ph1p · February 11

BejaProphet wrote: »

The system is flawed. First, you do not NEED to get more than 30 transmutes a day. You don’t. I completely and utterly reject any reasoning thus far given to suggest that you NEED that. It’s nonsense. It is self-evidently nonsense. Change my mind if you can.

No thanks, I obviously can't change your mind and won't try further. It's fine, though. Thanks for the discussion.

BejaProphet wrote: »

But second stop and consider the current system. Are we seriously saying that a system which forces me to make twelve characters to optimize my time is “working as intended?” That too is nonsense. It is a design flaw in the incentive structure.

No one is forcing anybody to do anything. But if you WANT to farm transmutes on twelve characters, you currently can. I don't want to take that option away from people, including the nice ones who don't rush or fake roles in dungeons. My suggestion still allows for it (in my opinion).

BejaProphet wrote: »

Finally, this would work to reduce fake tanks because it would immediately remove the desire for most people to run 12+ random dungeons a day. For many it is the sheer amount of dungeons that are crammed into their schedule that makes them say, “screw it, I’ll just say I’m a tank.” But then also that will only benefit them once a day. It would instantly change the reward for bad behavior.

People would still do the 3 RNDs, where you get rewards, with fake roles.