Allow continuation of Infinite Archive progression

Syldras

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I feel personal health is an individual's own responsibility. You do not have to play for a gazillion hours, even if the content allows this.

I agree with this, although I also find it questionable to design a whole game mode or ranking list revolving around "who sits the longest in front of their screen wins". I know that "getting as far as possible" has been the main principle in many arcade and early pc games, but those were different times. Also, the average age of gamers is increasing. Many just don't have infinite amounts of free time left due to work, family, etc.

I'm fine with an "endless" game with ever increasing difficulty, where in the end the difficulty decides how far one gets, and this is also reflects in the score board. This would also work if an option to save progress is available. Of course someone who saves often to take a break would probably have an advantage over someone playing many hours without rest (with fatigue and lack of concentration setting in), but it wouldn't be unfair as everyone could save anytime.

Necrotech_Master

getting the bonuses helps a lot, then you can start with 4 threads, or 5 if you go in with another player who has the upgrades too

then you can also have the chance to get the supplemental thread option if you beat a boss and down to only 1 thread, allowing a potential 6 threads per run

i do think there are features missing from archive, namely banish/reroll mechanics for visions

some rogue-likes do support a save feature while others dont, its kind of hit or miss on that, but i think it would be nice to have a way to save progress if you do want to try to push arcs

usually for speed and farming i tend to stop at about arc 3 or 4, unless i have really good visions then ill try to go further, though in most of the runs ive done going past arc 8 is very difficult and can take upwards 7 hours to reach that

Pelanora

I think they should have chunked it into clearly separate phases that you can save at and start up the next phase. So you have to survive till that point, it's not unlimited saves anywhere, but you can save and come back and then move on.

That would meet in the middle some way between the sense of a run you have to try to survive, and pauses for sanity's and reality's sake.

Sarannah

Pelanora wrote: »

I think they should have chunked it into clearly separate phases that you can save at and start up the next phase. So you have to survive till that point, it's not unlimited saves anywhere, but you can save and come back and then move on.

That would meet in the middle some way between the sense of a run you have to try to survive, and pauses for sanity's and reality's sake.

In my opinion this would actually be a fantastic and fair solution, if it was created as a daily. Have savepoints in the archive reset/deleted at every daily quest reset AND as is now: reset the archive if a player loses all threads or ends the run manually. This way players could start over completely, but can also choose to continue their run if they do so on the same day. Allowing for breaks in between.

This would keep players having to start over atleast every day, but they no longer have to do their entire IA run in one go/one sitting.

Note: As a safepoint I would suggest to take the before last completed arc. Not the last completed arc, to allow players to get used to the difficulty they are placed in when continueing a run.
Note: This would not devalue fortunes as much, as everyone would still have to start fresh every day.

Ph1p

Sarannah wrote: »

In my opinion this would actually be a fantastic and fair solution, if it was created as a daily. Have savepoints in the archive reset/deleted at every daily quest reset AND as is now: reset the archive if a player loses all threads or ends the run manually. This way players could start over completely, but can also choose to continue their run if they do so on the same day. Allowing for breaks in between.

A daily reset would make the save feature mostly useless. Players are mostly active in the evenings, meaning many IA runs end prematurely because it's late and people need to sleep. What's the point of a save that expires before people log on again?

I think a save function should look like this:

• Definition of a save: To clarify, a save means you can continue on from a previous run. There is no option whatsoever to skip directly to a higher arc during a new run. To play arc X, you always have to do arcs 1 to X-1 first, just not in one continuous session.
• How it works: It saves your current Visions, marauder spawn state, and occurrence of secret levels, and puts you back to the beginning of the cycle you already reached. That way, verses don't matter and don't have to be saved. Resetting the player to earlier stages would require unnecessary messing with the Visions one has already collected. The save could also be tied to the daily quest, like in Maelstrom Arena.
• What about duos? Ideally, it should even work for duos, as long as both characters stay grouped together, both have the quest, and don't do anything else IA-wise in the meantime.
• The cost: Saving deducts one thread. If you only have one left, it doesn't work any more. If you want to limit saving to once per run, that's also fine with me. Saving also stops your progress for the leaderboard.
• Expiration: If there has to be a time limit for saves, make them reset every month or so, like PVP campaigns. I would appreciate the possibility to start an IA run on a Sunday and continue the next weekend, for example.
• Archival Fortunes: I don't really get the devaluation argument, since fortunes can't be traded and store prices are fixed by the game. Or are you worried that ZOS will increase them? "Elite" players having more fortunes doesn't change your own buying power. It might actually make some crafting materials cheaper to buy with gold

Stafford197

Infinite Archive does not respect my time. I’m not going to run this content as it is.

Did you finish Arc 6? Awesome.
Infinite Archive should now let you begin a run at Arc 6 (or any previous Arc), whilst disabling Leaderboard placement if not beginning at Arc 1.

It. Is. That. Simple.

Oh but hey, they added new marauders…. So exciting

Syiccal

I fully support a save, got to arc 5 could easily go further but real life responsibilities had me leaving unfortunately.

mayasunrising

I definitely agree with a save option. It's just not healthy for a human being to sit for 6 hours on a game - and to be honest - as someone with a disability - it's a bit ableist. I get that some are able , and might want to do marathon runs, but i think for most folk it's just not possible.

Please add a save option!

Icy_Waffles

Yeah I rarely have time for more than arcs 1-5 even though I can solo further and really wish I could for the fun and challenge.

Sarannah

Ph1p wrote: »

Expiration: If there has to be a time limit for saves, make them reset every month or so, like PVP campaigns. I would appreciate the possibility to start an IA run on a Sunday and continue the next weekend, for example.

This is WAY too long, a daily reset would be most fair for the entire playerbase. Maybe reset it every two days, but not longer. Keep in mind, ZOS would have to store everyone's run and visions and verses. Not clearing that every day may possibly affect server performance.

Resetting it every day(maybe every two days) is most fair, as that would still basically keep it one run, but not force one sitting. Saving a run any longer would be ridiculous and unfair in my opinion.

Ph1p

Sarannah wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Expiration: If there has to be a time limit for saves, make them reset every month or so, like PVP campaigns. I would appreciate the possibility to start an IA run on a Sunday and continue the next weekend, for example.

This is WAY too long, a daily reset would be most fair for the entire playerbase. Maybe reset it every two days, but not longer. Keep in mind, ZOS would have to store everyone's run and visions and verses. Not clearing that every day may possibly affect server performance.

Resetting it every day(maybe every two days) is most fair, as that would still basically keep it one run, but not force one sitting. Saving a run any longer would be ridiculous and unfair in my opinion.

You keep saying “fair” and “unfair”, but how does it impact YOU when I have the option to continue a run 5 days after I started? Why is that ridiculous and disadvantaging YOU?

If you’re so worried about performance then make it 7 days or so. But having it reset with other dailies or similar is way worse, because the developer time and additional server pressure would be actually wasted with little to no gain of QoL.

Syiccal

Ph1p wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Expiration: If there has to be a time limit for saves, make them reset every month or so, like PVP campaigns. I would appreciate the possibility to start an IA run on a Sunday and continue the next weekend, for example.

This is WAY too long, a daily reset would be most fair for the entire playerbase. Maybe reset it every two days, but not longer. Keep in mind, ZOS would have to store everyone's run and visions and verses. Not clearing that every day may possibly affect server performance.

Resetting it every day(maybe every two days) is most fair, as that would still basically keep it one run, but not force one sitting. Saving a run any longer would be ridiculous and unfair in my opinion.

You keep saying “fair” and “unfair”, but how does it impact YOU when I have the option to continue a run 5 days after I started? Why is that ridiculous and disadvantaging YOU?

If you’re so worried about performance then make it 7 days or so. But having it reset with other dailies or similar is way worse, because the developer time and additional server pressure would be actually wasted with little to no gain of QoL.

I agree, I don't see how a save for X days would unfairly disadvantage anyone as everyone has the same option. All ot does is give ppl the.option to go further if they choose over several days instead of one sitting which is not possible for some ppl that have life responsibilities

alpha_synuclein

I don't get the "fairness" argument either. Is this about leaderboards? If so, I don't think we would oppose the exclusion of saved runs from it.

And daily save does not make any sense. The biggest issue here are playtime limits that we have every day... If a save resets overnight it's pointless.

As for the server load and the ease of implementation I would still advocate for arc skip tokens. This way nothing needs to be saved/stored and it will be easier to coordinate between group and solo options. Every time I/we start a new run I/we can choose whether to go from the very beginning for an easy farm session or start later and try to push the luck with later arcs.

Syiccal

I don't understand the argument about leaderboards just because of saves. If everyone has the same option to save what difference does it make

alpha_synuclein

Syiccal wrote: »

I don't understand the argument about leaderboards just because of saves. If everyone has the same option to save what difference does it make

I agree. I've referred to it because one of the previous posters argumented against save because it's somehow unfair. The only potential unfairness I could think of was comparing scores between saved and unsaved runs. But since we would all have the same choices...

Ph1p

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

I don't understand the argument about leaderboards just because of saves. If everyone has the same option to save what difference does it make

I agree. I've referred to it because one of the previous posters argumented against save because it's somehow unfair. The only potential unfairness I could think of was comparing scores between saved and unsaved runs. But since we would all have the same choices...

That’s a fair argument and there is a precedent for this with Maelstrom Arena: If you save your progress and return later, it disqualifies you from leaderboards and the Perfect Run achievement. I see no problem with applying the same logic to IA.

Syiccal

Ph1p wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

I don't understand the argument about leaderboards just because of saves. If everyone has the same option to save what difference does it make

I agree. I've referred to it because one of the previous posters argumented against save because it's somehow unfair. The only potential unfairness I could think of was comparing scores between saved and unsaved runs. But since we would all have the same choices...

That’s a fair argument and there is a precedent for this with Maelstrom Arena: If you save your progress and return later, it disqualifies you from leaderboards and the Perfect Run achievement. I see no problem with applying the same logic to IA.

I do as vet Maelstrom can be complete in less than an hour with relative ease. IA takes hours upon hours of time to get to the higher arcs, having a save option does not disadvantage anyone on the leaderboard as everyone will have the same option. All the current system does is penalise players that have real life responsibilities and those unable to sit and play for long periods of time.

Those players might well be able to go far but can't because of the reasons above. Look at the newest world record (that we know of), a magma DK going to Arc 16, he said that took near on 16 hours...that's mental to do in one sitting and definitely not good for your health.

Il add that I think it's somewhat irresponsible by the Devs to except players to do the archive in one sitting and shut many players out of the content they trying to get us to do.

alpha_synuclein

Ph1p wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

I don't understand the argument about leaderboards just because of saves. If everyone has the same option to save what difference does it make

I agree. I've referred to it because one of the previous posters argumented against save because it's somehow unfair. The only potential unfairness I could think of was comparing scores between saved and unsaved runs. But since we would all have the same choices...

That’s a fair argument and there is a precedent for this with Maelstrom Arena: If you save your progress and return later, it disqualifies you from leaderboards and the Perfect Run achievement. I see no problem with applying the same logic to IA.

Maelstrom arena takes half an hour.

Tbh I don't really care about what they do with scores and leaderboards. Just give me some time saving solution.

Edit after giving it more thought:
The leaderboard thing is a bit complicated. It's hard to disagree that doing something like 16 arcs at one sitting is insanely more difficult than doing it with a save in between. If we want to compare these runs, score should somehow reflect the difference.

On the other hand though, with those long runs it feels like irl factors are contributing to the score a bit too much. If I'd wanted my physical endurance to be scored, I would play sports instead of a video game.

In general I think that the specifics about whether and how skip/saved runs should be scored need to be discussed mostly between devs and those players that actually scorepush IA. I have a feeling that most of the players here asking for a save do not fall into this category.

vsrs_au

Sarannah wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Expiration: If there has to be a time limit for saves, make them reset every month or so, like PVP campaigns. I would appreciate the possibility to start an IA run on a Sunday and continue the next weekend, for example.

This is WAY too long, a daily reset would be most fair for the entire playerbase. Maybe reset it every two days, but not longer. Keep in mind, ZOS would have to store everyone's run and visions and verses. Not clearing that every day may possibly affect server performance.

Resetting it every day(maybe every two days) is most fair, as that would still basically keep it one run, but not force one sitting. Saving a run any longer would be ridiculous and unfair in my opinion.

Daily resets will still exclude most of the players from playing this dungeon. We all have real life commitments too, after all.

Necrotech_Master

Sarannah wrote: »

Ph1p wrote: »

Expiration: If there has to be a time limit for saves, make them reset every month or so, like PVP campaigns. I would appreciate the possibility to start an IA run on a Sunday and continue the next weekend, for example.

This is WAY too long, a daily reset would be most fair for the entire playerbase. Maybe reset it every two days, but not longer. Keep in mind, ZOS would have to store everyone's run and visions and verses. Not clearing that every day may possibly affect server performance.

Resetting it every day(maybe every two days) is most fair, as that would still basically keep it one run, but not force one sitting. Saving a run any longer would be ridiculous and unfair in my opinion.

to go along with others, a daily reset with be terrible

some players do have long runs which can extend over days (i think one of the deepest runs i know of hit the arc 30s, and the player was logged in for like 50 some hours, they obviously did not play the entire time, they slept while letting their character run into a wall to prevent being autologged out)

for those who want to take progress a bit at a time, usually that means spreading the activity out over several days, and what would happen if you started a run within hours of the daily reset time? does that mean you then have to stay online until the daily reset in order to get it to hold until the following days reset?

zos already gave us a way to manually reset the instance, so allowing to continue from a spot would be fine, i honestly dont care at all about the leaderboard, but like others have said too, for runs like maelstrom and vateshran, those leaderboard runs dont count if you logout, so the general systems already exist, it just needs a way to attach the instance to your character so if you have an active run (progressed at least 1 stage, and have threads remaining) it should allow you to pick up and continue the instance

valenwood_vegan

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

In general I think that the specifics about whether and how skip/saved runs should be scored need to be discussed mostly between devs and those players that actually scorepush IA. I have a feeling that most of the players here asking for a save do not fall into this category.

Yeah I mean I personally don't care one bit about the leaderboard or the score. I have to end my runs due to time and usually just port out without even bothering to officially "end" it to make the leaderboard.

I just want to enjoy the game mode for myself and actually experience the difficulty becoming a challenge without having to invest hours in one sitting. So I don't have a stake in the leaderboard part, I'd be fine with saving disabling further leaderboard progress or with leaving those decisions up to folks who actually care

I can't speak for everyone making this request, but I do think it's correct that a lot of us aren't trying to scorepush and are just trying to get more personal enjoyment out of IA.

Necrotech_Master

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

In general I think that the specifics about whether and how skip/saved runs should be scored need to be discussed mostly between devs and those players that actually scorepush IA. I have a feeling that most of the players here asking for a save do not fall into this category.

Yeah I mean I personally don't care one bit about the leaderboard or the score. I have to end my runs due to time and usually just port out without even bothering to officially "end" it to make the leaderboard.

I just want to enjoy the game mode for myself and actually experience the difficulty becoming a challenge without having to invest hours in one sitting. So I don't have a stake in the leaderboard part, I'd be fine with saving disabling further leaderboard progress or with leaving those decisions up to folks who actually care

I can't speak for everyone making this request, but I do think it's correct that a lot of us aren't trying to scorepush and are just trying to get more personal enjoyment out of IA.

a bunch of people i know would enjoy the archive a lot more if they could say start at like arc 4, because the first several arcs are "too easy" and want the challenging combat

Sarannah

The IA is an infinite archive, not a "run-one-arc-per-day" arena. It has to keep the feeling of infinite. A reset that takes any longer than 2-3 days tops, would make the archive lose it's 'infinite' character, and would fundamentally change an IA run into smaller pieces like a regular dungeon instead of it actually being one continuous run. Which it should stay. (Note: Maybe every 5 arcs completed adds +1 day before the reset happens. For players who want to go really high in the arcs.)

The IA basically already resets every day, so this should stay this way for fairness. With fairness I mean both the starting over vs continueing, as well as the stamina of doing it in one-go vs continueing from a savepoint, and the fairness of the fortunes gained when being able to (re)start in higher arcs instead of arc one.

PS: The archive needs many more upgrades!
PPS: Does anyone have the new upgrade yet? Is it useful? (Only have the quests part of the achievement to go, at 24/30 right now.)

alpha_synuclein

Sarannah wrote: »

The IA is an infinite archive, not a "run-one-arc-per-day" arena. It has to keep the feeling of infinite. A reset that takes any longer than 2-3 days tops, would make the archive lose it's 'infinite' character, and would fundamentally change an IA run into smaller pieces like a regular dungeon instead of it actually being one continuous run. Which it should stay. (Note: Maybe every 5 arcs completed adds +1 day before the reset happens. For players who want to go really high in the arcs.)

The IA basically already resets every day, so this should stay this way for fairness. With fairness I mean both the starting over vs continueing, as well as the stamina of doing it in one-go vs continueing from a savepoint, and the fairness of the fortunes gained when being able to (re)start in higher arcs instead of arc one.

If the archive is infinite what is the problem with starting 1or 2 arcs later? It has no end anyway, so the feeling will still be there. Customization of the starting point will just make it mor fun for those who are not very entertained in early arcs. Also, if more experienced players could start further in it would open up options to make early arcs more accessible to those that are finding them too hard now.

And when it comes to the fairness: I get the score/leaderboard argument, but I treat archive like a "get in and kill stuff" leisure activity, so scores are pretty much irrelevant to me. So I'll leave it for those who care.

When it comes to fortunes though... It is rather logical and done all over the game that if you kill something harder to kill, you get a better loot. If you do normal dungeon you get blue gear, if you do vet you get purple. For me that is fair and I think it's good that it also apply to IA. And I don't believe that changing a starting point (whether it would be by save or a skip upgrade) would make anything unfair. You're still killing a stronger opponent. This rewards skill. Making runs last forever turns that into rewarding physical endurance a bit too much to my taste...

Also, if we get skip enabling upgrades (similarly to the ones we have now, that give extra vision choice or an extra thread), we're going to pay for them with fortunes. So a part of that extra gain would be nullified.

Pevey

The biggest problem with expecting the archive to be done in one sitting is that arcs are too long. It makes the archive boring and mentally exhausting. There should be 3 rounds at most in each arc, not 5. This would help the bosses do a better job of their intended purpose, which seems to be to break up the monotony a bit.

Syiccal

Pevey wrote: »

The biggest problem with expecting the archive to be done in one sitting is that arcs are too long. It makes the archive boring and mentally exhausting. There should be 3 rounds at most in each arc, not 5. This would help the bosses do a better job of their intended purpose, which seems to be to break up the monotony a bit.

I 100% agree that arcs are way to long, we was saying this the other day, it is very repetitive.

Necrotech_Master

Sarannah wrote: »

The IA is an infinite archive, not a "run-one-arc-per-day" arena. It has to keep the feeling of infinite. A reset that takes any longer than 2-3 days tops, would make the archive lose it's 'infinite' character, and would fundamentally change an IA run into smaller pieces like a regular dungeon instead of it actually being one continuous run. Which it should stay. (Note: Maybe every 5 arcs completed adds +1 day before the reset happens. For players who want to go really high in the arcs.)

The IA basically already resets every day, so this should stay this way for fairness. With fairness I mean both the starting over vs continueing, as well as the stamina of doing it in one-go vs continueing from a savepoint, and the fairness of the fortunes gained when being able to (re)start in higher arcs instead of arc one.

PS: The archive needs many more upgrades!
PPS: Does anyone have the new upgrade yet? Is it useful? (Only have the quests part of the achievement to go, at 24/30 right now.)

the archive does not reset "every day" the instance resets if your outside of it for about 5-10 min if you are solo, even afking outside of the archive would be almost enough to be forced to restart the run

what does it matter if someone can continue it? for some people like myself it took almost 8 months to clear the vet maelstrom the first time, if it did not save, it would have been much longer likely trying to just re-grind the early arenas every time

its pretty simple that if its saved then you just get disqualified from the leaderboards, but a good portion of people such as myself dont even care about the leaderboard to begin with

i usually only clear arc 3 because i find it the most time efficient way to farm in there, i dont usually try to push higher arcs partially because it can become a slog with the wrong visions and partially because its just so long, usually runs where i end in arc 7+ are in the 6-8 hour range

with the way the archive is set up right now, you basically cant take any kind of break unless you just let your character run into a wall because you have to keep the instance open

there isnt a whole lot of benefit to go deep because the value of fortunes isnt super high, theres not that much worth buying with them

on another note, yes i should have the ability to buy the new upgrade today, i only need 2 more ghost dailies to finish the achievement

Stafford197

We should be able to begin our IA run at any Arc that we have already completed. Disable the Leaderboard for runs which are started at any Arc besides Arc 1.

It is that simple

JemadarofCaerSalis

Stafford197 wrote: »

We should be able to begin our IA run at any Arc that we have already completed. Disable the Leaderboard for runs which are started at any Arc besides Arc 1.

It is that simple

This is how I feel, and be able to save progress, even if we have to start at the beginning of the stage/arc we are on when we restart our run.

KaironBlackbard

BretonMage wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

The entire point of the archive is to start over a fresh run every time.

Sorry, but that's just utterly boring. Most players like the feeling of progressing, which is what ZOS is counting on to keep them playing to later arcs. Some of us, however, are thankfully equipped with a sense of self-preservation, and know that remaining glued to your computer is anything but healthy.

If they think they need to revise fortune rewards for saved progress, I don't really care, but I'm not shortening my irl lifespan to try to get further in IA.

This seems like a bit of and overreaction, just go as far as you can and don't stretch it to the extreme. Just start over next time. A save would change the entire dynamic of the IA.

And I would mind if everything buyable for fortunes became more expensive due to a save function. As that would effectively devalue my time in the archive, by me having to spend more time in the IA to get more fortunes for the higher priced items. A save function would only let the elite/strong players farm more fortunes faster, while the players stuck in lower arcs would now have to spend more time in those lower arc to get the same results/buy the same items for a higher fortune price.

Personally I think the way ZOS made the IA without saves is good and fair for everyone. Equal start equal finish.

Edit: What if continuing from a saved point does not only stop any leaderboard submissions, but also stops all fortune drops from that point on? Could be a solution.

I disagree that it's an overreaction. It is widely reported that sedentary lifestyles are associated with serious health problems and an increased risk of premature death.

Being forced to sit for hours at your computer in order to reach the later arcs is actually bad for one's health (sorry, but 4-5 minute breaks are nothing), and starting over from arc 1 on another day would do nothing to improve it.

I also think that a save function would actually benefit the less elite players; after all, the current design ensures ONLY the stronger players can reach higher levels. The rest of us only have a very slim chance of attempting the higher arcs.

As I said before, tweak the fortune drops if necessary, but I think it's a) healthier, and b) more fair for the lower level players if we have a save function. Perhaps you could freeze the fortune drops (and disable leaderboards) at the level you saved at.

Why freeze fortune drops? its only 200 per crate.
Every time ive run it, the highest was 200 per muniment.
Once I get to arc 3, I find it more profitable to reset and go again. It's the same value from muniment at a much slower pace, so reset to gain it fast again.

Save it if you have threads left so you can continue another day, shouldn't hurt the scoring. It's the same playtime either way, just split between multiple days.

I see no reason to alter prices or gains. I see no reason why a save system would hurt.

If you're running for fortunes, I see no reason why you'd torture yourself in higher arcs when you get the same stuff in lower arcs much swifter.